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The Anarchist
15-07-2010, 21:26
I went to a bodubuilding meet last night and on the journey home it occured to me a Space Marine's weight on any non adeptus astartes desgined ship and area would cause problems. the avarage bodybuilder ocasionaly has weight problems due to their build, so a space marine weight 4 timesas much surely msut have issues.

the way i see it Ronnie Coleman is 5'10 and weighed just udner 300lbs/135kg at contest weight. an off season weight for the top bodybuliders isn't unusual to reach 150kg. now take into account that a space marine is at least a foot taller than the average bodybuilder, and often described twice as massive as normal man, sometimes 3 times the mass of a normal man. so using these as rough calculations a Space Marine might weigh 300-350kg. this weight is including rough estimates for mass of extra organs, however the extremem density of bone structure in Space Marines might add further weight.

so an unarmed and unarmoured space marine is probably gona weight give or take a lil bit 350kg. Now I've worn full body armour and it weights a fair bit, bomb disposal kit can weight 30 kg with everything included. i think its fair to say solid ceramtie for a figure of space marine stature will happily weigh 5 times that if not more; so that 150kg. when you add in a space marines backpack, and the electro-muscle of the suit you add at least another 50 kg. so the armour weighs as much as 200kg

the size of a bolter and its weight is much discussed i know, but a gatling gun from the bottom of a helecopter gunship is similar in size, weight and dimension to a astartes bolter gun. so 25 kg is a comfortable estimate at the least. now add in full complement of kit such as spare clips, grenades and a chain sword anotehr 25kg is a good estimate. so full kit is now 50kg

overall that makes a single space marine in full kit probably weighs at least 550 kg each. thats the weight of 5 very hefty guys, so walking around a star ship on gantries not desgined for a space marine i can see some problems. furthermore what happens when a single space marine is the guest of an imperial dignitry or some such, even going up s single flight of stairs could cause some serrious issues.

whilst a single space marine might be an issue, what happens whena full squad of 10 marines, including heavy gunner and anything else walk around a standard imperial area....

btw if anyone has a problem with my rough weight mesaurements call me out please :)

Karl MkVI
15-07-2010, 21:32
I'm afraid it comes down to the fact that no-one cares.

this is not at all meant as an offence to you or your post (which is perfectly viable, and potentially (nay, probably) very much true); it's just the way it is. call it rule of cool or whatever, but really it's because it doesn't matter enough for anyone to care.

at the end of the day; where does a space marine keep his spare ammo? :)

ODINM4
15-07-2010, 22:07
the spare ammo is attached with mag clamps to his armour ,thats how i modeled my marine anyways

Iuris
15-07-2010, 22:29
Ahhhhhh.... the sweet sound of another who has noticed :)

Weight is a problem. Also, size. The marines will have trouble following their enemies down corridors simply due to their shoulder pads. They won't be able to climb ladders due to the huge boots. And, of course, ceilings will need to be reinforced.

It's just one of those cases of people not realizing that greater size comes with disadvantages, too :)

Hmmm, I'll have to find those drawings I made, where I made illustrations of just how big a Marine and a Primarch would be, even by just going for the very very conservative "one head taller" method :)

FabricatorGeneralMike
15-07-2010, 22:37
Yeppers Marines weight alot in armour, if I had to get all geeky about it you could say something like suspensor fields, ultra-light construction methods etc etc etc... It's just the rule of cool ;) Don't try to figure it out, just accept it. Why does it work? it just does. :rolleyes:

Lord Malice
15-07-2010, 23:48
Ceramite is a ceramic based compound so it seems unlikely that it is that heavy as a material and in any case it is used to provide an ablative coating for Space Marine Power Armour.

I also don't believe that a boltgun is anywhere near as heavy as you make out either. In Inquisitor a sickle mag bolter has a given weight the same as an automatic combat shotgun, less than that of a heavy stubber and less than two lasguns so an approximate weight of roughly seven to eight kilos; incidentily the weight of a minigun is fourteen kilos (not including ammo).

The average bathtub holds around 270 litres which is roughly 270Kg, plus an averagely sized man, another 80Kg say and you can also fit another person into the bath at the same time, let us say a woman around another 70Kg. That means that in the average house, the average floor/ceiling can comfortably support at least 420Kg and that doesn't take into account the weight of everything else in the bathroom.

Even if we were to say that an average fully laden Space Marine was roughly 500Kg I don't think they would have trouble moving about in an ordinary house with regards to their weight. I don't think an entire squad could march around in such a building though, at least not without moving around carefully one at a time and staying close to the walls where their weight would be better supported.

Son of Sanguinius
15-07-2010, 23:55
The bolter's construction means it needs not be a massively durable thing. Being a gyrojet style weapon, it doesn't need to able to withstand tremendous amounts of recoil. Now, that being said, they are still capable of holding up against the grip of a frenzied Marine and turning aside a blow from an Ork, so I'm full of crap.

massey
16-07-2010, 00:01
I saw some figures somewhere (in a GW publication, no less) that said a suit of marine armor weighed 250 lbs. I would estimate a marine probably weighs in around 300 - 350 lbs. I tend to put the average marine at about Shaq size. So give him his heavier ribcage, extra organs and things, about 350. The armor is supposed to have built-in antigrav units which make it weigh effectively nothing. So really, once a marine is in his armor, him stomping around your house isn't much worse than having Shaq stomp around your house.

Sir_Turalyon
16-07-2010, 00:12
Ah, ninja'd by massey. At least I can back it up with a quote.



On it's own a suit of power armour weights over 250 lbs, and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move while wearing it were it not for electricaly motivated fibre bundles. [...] In addition, most suits of power armour include a gravitic energy damper which effectively reduces weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of normal human being.

ForgottenLore
16-07-2010, 00:17
You can rationalize the weight problem with superior construction methods. whatever building materials they use in the imperium can apparently easily support a ton or more.

The size barrier is much harder to rationalize away, although important areas of Imperial architecture are usually shown as being very grand is scale.

massey
16-07-2010, 00:29
Nah. A 7' tall marine who is 4' wide at the shoulders could walk through my house (and my house isn't very big). He'd just break a lot of stuff.

Kage2020
16-07-2010, 01:12
I have the weight to a median value of around 400 lbs, with the 2-standard deviation range to incorporate a =/-40lb range. This is great, since it's pretty much the range of acceptable variation to the (Kage-verse) capacity of Adeptus Astartes power armour. (I'm not a huge fan of the idea that Marines just cobble together power and terminator armour to make space for the traditional big and boisterous Marine who has a tendency of loud laughing and clapping of shoulders.)

For me this means that the average Space Marine will, in their armour, mass about 1,000 lbs or so. Impressive. Most impressive...

<Luke Skywalker does another force jump... :shifty: >

Of course, if you want an alternative approach just Google Phil Sibbering's (fan) interpretations. He has Marines as weighing 780 lbs.

Important or not important? Rule of Cool, Speed of Plot or not? That's up to you. I for one can often find the discussion and interpretations to be far more interesting to the tribe of edit... chimpanzees typing the codices... ;)

Kage

Sai-Lauren
16-07-2010, 08:14
I wrote an essay on this a while back - I think I had Marines at about 7' and roughly 300lbs (for comparison, Chicago's Brian Urlacher is 6'6" and 258lbs, whilst the wrestler Dave Batista - my personal base for a Marine's body shape - is 6'6" and 290lbs), the armour the same, and the backpack half as much again. Then add in weapons and other equipment.

And yes, they would have to be careful in ruined buildings not to go crashing through the floors.

Iuris
16-07-2010, 08:14
Hey, now Kage, c'mon, don't be insulting that tribe of chimpanzees typing! They do the job of a whole tribal society as far as output is concerned!

Unfortunately, we'd still need an infinite number to get something of real quality from them, though :)

Askil the Undecided
16-07-2010, 08:41
Alot of the fact that SM don't find much in the way of difficulty operating in the Imperium (walkways, stairs, chairs, floors etc...) might be because the Imperium tends not to make things that are designed to accomodate anything smaller than a battletank or last less than a few thousand years without maintainence.

Phoebus
16-07-2010, 11:39
The biggest trap to fall into is to compare a Space Marine to a normal, non-augmented human.

A Space Marine's body includes a reinforced and hardened skeletal structure and an enhanced musculature. This means the Space Marine's body would be able to support a greater amount of weight than a normal human, whose bones and muscles would stress at far lower levels.

Similarly, human muscles (and bones) fatigue after exertion, and require time to recuperate. This varies from the legionnaire of old needing time to rest his legs after undergoing the supposed 30-40km marches, to the weight-lifter of today giving his muscles time to recuperate from a gym session. What helps the Space Marine quickly heal cuts, though, also helps with muscular recuperation. Thus, Space Marines not only are able to sustain greater work loads and stressors (e.g., carrying their body weight, achieving superhuman physical feats) than normal humans; they are able to maintain more difficult paces and recover faster as well.

Bodybuilders are also not a good comparison. Any physical model that compares to a bodybuilder type will be inapplicable for a Space Marine precisely because the latter has to be able to do a number of things a bodybuilder cannot. Jay Cutler, Mr. Olympia for more than one year, lamented the fact that he was physically unable to swim--his musculature prevents him from performing certain physical movements. Mass, past a certain point, robs you of dexterity, flexibility, etc., which is contrary to what we know a Space Marine could do.

A Space Marine would certainly be far larger than a normal human being (we know they average 7.5 feet in height, per the Warhammer design folks), but their musculature would ultimately be superior to that of a baseline human moreso in terms of inherent, genetic capability/strength than just size. Their mass would not preclude them from swimming, acrobatics/ tumbling, climbing, etc.

I posit that an average (7.5 feet tall) Space Marine would weigh close to 400lbs, but that this would be not so much due to a stunning amount of mass as much as the greater density/weight of their enhanced skeletal structure. I think Nathan Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nathanjones.jpg) is about the right shape for a Space Marine (though he's about 7 inches shy in height), but someone who had undergone the transformative process would probably not have to worry about a body fat percentage beyond what the body needs during adverse conditions.

aim
16-07-2010, 11:54
Well that quote solves the whole problem really, It says the antigrav suspensors make the armour weight about that of a normal man, im assuming it means while someones inside it. even if it doesnt, it would probably be about the same as a fat guy giving a regular guy a piggie back, so most stuffs probably more than happy to take that weight, they just wont be having too many bouncy castles at the christmas party...

Sai-Lauren
16-07-2010, 11:58
The biggest trap to fall into is to compare a Space Marine to a normal, non-augmented human.

The problem there is that they start as normal, non-augmented humans, and there's only so much you can do to the human body before it goes beyond it's physical limitations, and the person dies - body core temperature, for example, and that's before we even push the black carapace under their skin which would increase the amount of insulation.



A Space Marine would certainly be far larger than a normal human being (we know they average 7.5 feet in height, per the Warhammer design folks), but their musculature would ultimately be superior to that of a baseline human moreso in terms of inherent, genetic capability/strength than just size. Their mass would not preclude them from swimming, acrobatics/ tumbling, climbing, etc.

I thought this was estblished years ago, the diagram was wrong, there was no 0, it started at one foot and Marines are roughly 6'6" to 7'.

Any references to "normal" humans should be made in the context of the 40k universe, where diet and nutrition could be poor and thus the average Imperial citizen may well be relatively short and undernourished, not modern day people in the western world with good diets and the availability of vitamin supplements and gym memberships.



Bodybuilders are also not a good comparison.

Agree there - hence my examples of Brian Urlacher and Dave Batista, tough, physical athletes (yes, wrestling may be fake, but he still does all those lifts, throws, running around etc, and you have to know how to hit someone to make just missing them look good ;)) with a high stamina in the right kind of height range.

Petay1985
16-07-2010, 12:10
in regard to the previous point about buildings/gantries/floors etc not supporting the weight of a marine, as a designer i can confirm that floors, etc, can indeed hold alot even at standard spec, especially that in public areaa/ warships or military/secure installations.

when designing for loadings on floors, and i'm not a structural engineer, one tends to design to the worst case scenario. which is usually based around fire escape, in a modern setting, where you are likely to have a lot of people imposing a loading on a particular area. look at how many people lifts can take, regular lifts in a shopping centre or block of flats!

apologies if that makes little sense, but hopefully is helpfull; even the design of a gantry or floor is, at base level, a complex calculation based on a variety of variables and situations. In a military installarion, i speak from experience ;) , it is far more accomodating, and often built to last.

Sai-Lauren
16-07-2010, 12:52
That just reminded me of the figures we got quoted for load tolerances during my engineering course.

Civil Engineering uses a factor of 2 - it's designed to be twice as strong as the design needs it to be.

But if a bridge is only designed to take the weight of one person at a time, a fully armoured and equipped Marine is still going to break it - and not every situation is ideal, they could be going through a ruined building, very soft ground...

The heavier a Marine is, the more areas are going to be inaccessible to him.

As for suspensors in the armour to offset the weight, well, let's just say that I don't personally like the idea :).

Petay1985
16-07-2010, 13:05
@sai-lauren, quite right there will still be a myriad of situations where a marine is too heavy and thus inaccessible as you say. i wasn't so much trying to discredit that, more illustrate that often man made structures, in more positive states of repair, would probably be fine and thus facilitate the passage of a marine.

of course, we probably wouldn't read about Marine 'X' who died with his squad on rusty gantries onboard a strike cruiser, in a black library marine novel, lol

cav da man
16-07-2010, 13:16
Ahhhhhh.... the sweet sound of another who has noticed :)

Weight is a problem. Also, size. The marines will have trouble following their enemies down corridors simply due to their shoulder pads. They won't be able to climb ladders due to the huge boots. And, of course, ceilings will need to be reinforced.


space marines are 'teh awesum', they can just punch holes in the wall and climb up that, ladders are fer sissies.

Had a long nerdy post saying most races have things as big as space marines or bigger to get around their outposts and whatever!

Also that space marines are not the guys dedicated to wiping out every single that lurks down a dark tunnel in most situations arn't they more often given a very specific order like "kill the genestealer cult leader" or "destroy that forgeworld factory but reclaim this jar of the emperor's sweat that they stole first", and i think they'd go by intel whether they need guard to come climb down rabbit holes :D.

Remember the rule of 'if in doubt, blow it up' applies to tunnels and buildings you can't fit into in a fight :)

Phoebus
16-07-2010, 19:09
The problem there is that they start as normal, non-augmented humans, and there's only so much you can do to the human body before it goes beyond it's physical limitations, ...
That's all well and good, but--before we even get to the whole "the Emperor and his finest scientists probably thought about this already" angle (e.g., sticking Black Carapaces inside prospective Marines without compensating for body overheating), let's focus on the factors that pertain to this topic.

We know that Astartes musculatures and skeletal structures are vastly superior to those of normal humans. Their muscles and bones are capable of supporting greater weight, dealing with greater stressors, dealing with greater loads for longer time periods, etc.

Conversely, abnormal mass (past a certain point, hence my Jay Cutler comparison) affects a person's range of movement, flexibility, dexterity, etc. Hence, abnormal mass doesn't make sense for an Astartes. It's not necessary (being able to enhance musculatures and skeletal structures means you don't have to super-size them, which is the normal human's route), and in many cases it's not desirable (again, range of motion, etc).


I thought this was estblished years ago, the diagram was wrong, there was no 0, it started at one foot and Marines are roughly 6'6" to 7'.
I'm talking about the Podcast the design team put out. No chart; they specify between 7-7.5 feet as an average.


Any references to "normal" humans should be made in the context of the 40k universe, where diet and nutrition could be poor and thus the average Imperial citizen may well be relatively short and undernourished, not modern day people in the western world with good diets and the availability of vitamin supplements and gym memberships.
Except the Emperor's technology seems to succeed in subjects from a remarkable broad spectrum of environments, dietary conditions, etc.

We mostly focus on the desirable Astartes recruit--the feral hunter enjoying the classic "caveman diet" and optimal physical conditioning--but irradiated, physically stunted and hardly well fed young men from Baal Secundus make it to the ranks of the Blood Angels often enough to meet their quota (prior to that pesky civil war, of course).

But again, my point is merely this: the 21st century bodybuilder is simply not a good indication of what a 410th century Astartes would--or should--be.

Agree there - hence my examples of Brian Urlacher and Dave Batista, tough, physical athletes (yes, wrestling may be fake, but he still does all those lifts, throws, running around etc, and you have to know how to hit someone to make just missing them look good ;)) with a high stamina in the right kind of height range.[/quote]
Exactly. I'm actually embarassed that I didn't think of elite American football (except for most linemen)/Rugby/Australian rules football players first. Proportionately speaking, they are probably the closest to what an Astartes would look like. :)

madd0ct0r
16-07-2010, 19:32
i as a designer i can confirm that floors, etc, can indeed hold alot even at standard spec, especially that in public areaa/ warships or military/secure installations.



That just reminded me of the figures we got quoted for load tolerances during my engineering course.

Civil Engineering uses a factor of 2 - it's designed to be twice as strong as the design needs it to be.



Standard Eurocode crowd loading is 500kg /m2
This is applied with a safety factor of 1.5, further increased depending on the material.
so 750kg can be accommodated, with a small margin of safety left.

So, any house less then 100 years old in the uk (and not falling apart) should be able to take it, see the earlier bath example.
Most houses over 100 years old should be able to take it too, as their uncertainty factors were much much higher.

From what the fiction suggests, the imperium codes are rather more super heavy tank friendly

Philip S
16-07-2010, 19:51
Of course, if you want an alternative approach just Google Phil Sibbering's (fan) interpretations. He has Marines as weighing 780 lbs.
Sure do, and here the link for anyone who has missed them: Space Marine Morphology (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_9_Marine_1_Morphology.shtml) :D

Philip

Kage2020
17-07-2010, 00:27
This is generally why Space Marines tend to be a tad on the annoying side. Rather than seeing strengths and weaknesses to them, everyone seems to want to find ways to invalidate a weakness to make them into "AWESUMZ Spehs Mareenz" (or however that is spelled). Rather than having their size and weight work against them in interesting ways you get suspensors thrown into so that they don't have any tactical limitations for their super awesome armoured selves.

Not sure why people do that but... Well, I like my Marines to have flaws, mayhap even limitations that were not accounted for when they were created. You know, that kind of last-minute project that the Emperor didn't account for but, seemingly, he managed to get all of his ducks in a row despite this. :shifty:

Kage

HK-47
17-07-2010, 05:34
I seen to remember that there was a Black Library story that had a squad of marines having trouble going through an area because they where too heavy. I think it's called "Headhunted", but I'm not sure.

Iuris
17-07-2010, 10:05
This is generally why Space Marines tend to be a tad on the annoying side. Rather than seeing strengths and weaknesses to them, everyone seems to want to find ways to invalidate a weakness to make them into "AWESUMZ Spehs Mareenz" (or however that is spelled). Rather than having their size and weight work against them in interesting ways you get suspensors thrown into so that they don't have any tactical limitations for their super awesome armoured selves.

Not sure why people do that but... Well, I like my Marines to have flaws, mayhap even limitations that were not accounted for when they were created. You know, that kind of last-minute project that the Emperor didn't account for but, seemingly, he managed to get all of his ducks in a row despite this. :shifty:

Kage

Let's cry about it over a tankard of hydraulic fluid...

I want marines human sized. I want them to, sometimes, HERESY!, climb out of their armor and fight unarmored for stealth and mobility reasons. I want them to NEED SUPPORT...

Philip S
17-07-2010, 10:38
Not sure why people do that but... Well, I like my Marines to have flaws, mayhap even limitations that were not accounted for when they were created.
I like my marines to have tactical weaknesses, but I also like my marines to be smart and fight in a way that gets around those weaknesses.

I know you know how far I went with this so I wont go over it again here :angel:


I want marines human sized. I want them to, sometimes, HERESY!, climb out of their armor and fight unarmored for stealth and mobility reasons. I want them to NEED SUPPORT...
Or retcon their armour to have stealth tech?

Read this and weep: Marine Power Armour Stealth tech (http://philipsibbering.com/blog/2009/09/marine-power-armour-stealth-tech/)

Philip

Iuris
17-07-2010, 10:47
Hey, Phil, it's me, remember? I'd sooner have the marines' armor have slots for attaching ghillie suit strips than stealth fields :) Low tech rules :)

Philip S
17-07-2010, 11:20
Hey, Phil, it's me, remember?
Yep. Sure do.


I'd sooner have the marines' armor have slots for attaching ghillie suit strips than stealth fields :) Low tech rules :)
I think that's plausible too.

I didn't really go with 'stealth fields', apart from the Dark Age stuff but I think that would be very rare. I imagine most are OLED (or future tech version) or pigment based, with some suits having completely lost this ability (assault marines with jump packs may not care at all about camo).

Philip

Iuris
17-07-2010, 13:12
BTW, since stealth fields are mentioned: whenever I think about the strength of a space marine, the feats of the Predators (of the movie and video game fame) come to mind. Very tough and hard to kill but still mortal, skillful but possible to defeat, and feats of strength being holding up a man in one hand and similar. Just as a baseline.

Malice313
17-07-2010, 13:16
A body builders weight differs from an Olympic weight lifters, which difference from a Rugby Front Row-ers, which differs from a boxers, which differs from a labourers, which differs from a tri-athletes, which differs from a dec-athlete, which differs to a soldiers, which differs from a mixed martial artist, which differs from a Sumo Wrestlers, which differs from a Greco-Roman Wrestlers, which differs from a Professional Wrestlers, which differs from a...

I think you may not be applying a very specific subject to too broad a topic. Body mass indicators vary massively for people doing the same thing let alone when they specialise. Just look at those strongest man comps that are full of massive Maori behemoths and totally ripped, skinny Indian dudes.

Kage2020
17-07-2010, 16:21
I want marines human sized. I want them to, sometimes, HERESY!, climb out of their armor and fight unarmored for stealth and mobility reasons. I want them to NEED SUPPORT...
It's at this point that someone comes and says, "Sure, you can have that. It won't be 40k, but you can have that..."

;) :shifty:

Kage

Col. Tartleton
17-07-2010, 16:26
I don't even think marines need be that strong. I think they'd be very large, and in good shape, but huge muscles aren't really needed, they have the powered armor. I mean if they're 7'6" and four feet at the shoulder, they're more then twice the average width and more then 1/4 taller. They'd easily way as much as four regular sized healthy men even without the denser skeletons. Now presuming they'd be denser then a man and bulkier, I'd use a BMI of 60 or more. They're easily 700 pounds. I'm like 190 at like six two and pretty average build. A marine is about twice my width, thus easily twice my depth, making him four times my weight, then on top of that about a foot and a half taller which is probably another half of me or more. 4.5x190 is about 855. Thats about 390kg or 61 stone if you like. They're more then twice the size of the largest linemen if you were wondering, and they're not fat at all. They're just inhumanly big.

See this behemoth? Gilbert Brown. He weighs in at 425, about half the weight of an Astartes warrior (out of armor.) If the armor's 250 pounds, they wouldn't have no difficulty moving in it with broken servomotors. It would be comparable to the weight of medieval plate armor compared to their weight. However in order to fight as an Astarte (ie running as fast as an Olympic sprinter to pol-vault a downed bridge with a street light just to falcon punch a carnifex in the mandible with a plasma coated power fist system that weighs a few hundred pounds on its own) they still need the suit running properly.

I've fluffed that they have suspensor to reduce their weight for various situations. In regular buildings they can reduce their weight down to a regular man's. They can bail out of a thunderhawk at 60,000 ft without a jump pack by lowering their weight to human weight and taking the impact although it's damaging to the suit's shock absorbers and fiber bundles. Jump packs being used for lightning strikes rather then deep strikes. Plus in concert with their microjet-exhausts on their powerpacks they can make maneuvers during free fall as well as maneuver through depressurized and weightless damaged ships or even under water. They can swim with the suspensor on or march with it off. Bolters being self contained shells means they can be used in no atmosphere or under water equally well. As insane as it sounds I like the idea of a company of marines sabotaging an entire planet's high command in a horrifying lightning war. But then I would also make them almost entirely reliant on orbital strikes, air support, and assorted support which would be integrated in at the company level.

Kage2020
17-07-2010, 17:02
And therein lies many of the problems, at least in my mind. Everything is judged by the extremes of human variation and then "heroically" scaled (to borrow from Phil Sibbering ;)) to make them into Marines.

Then again, I would prefer to see less bat-**** crazy Marines in the first place. Scale the armour back down rather than use it as a justification to make the thing inside into the Incredible Hulk. :D

What can I say, though? Artistic talent nil point. :shifty:

Kage

Malice313
17-07-2010, 17:22
..."heroically" scaled...

Heroic scale is 32mm not 28mm.:D


However in order to fight as an Astarte (ie running as fast as an Olympic sprinter to pol-vault a downed bridge with a street light just to falcon punch a carnifex in the mandible with a plasma coated power fist system that weighs a few hundred pounds on its own)

...and then look at a those Kenyan marathon runners who can run non-stop without sleep for days on end. Surely such stamina means they should 15 feet tall and weigh 1,500 kgs and survive being dropped into combat from another planet!!!

Hang on, they are like 5'4 and weigh 50kgs and break bones slipping over in the shower!?!:wtf:

Have a look at a sprinter, a pole vaulter. They look NOTHING like that beefcake. I reckon that guy in the pic you provided would have a heart attack about half way through that sort of psychical excretion you describe.

metal bawks
17-07-2010, 18:06
Not sure why people do that but... Well, I like my Marines to have flaws, mayhap even limitations that were not accounted for when they were created. You know, that kind of last-minute project that the Emperor didn't account for but, seemingly, he managed to get all of his ducks in a row despite this. :shifty:

Kage

This reminded me of the old Space Marine novel, when at one point they go into a corridor so narrow they can't turn around in any reasonable amount of time, so the marine at the rear has to walk backwards. :D

Something I never understood is, if Space Marines were supposed to be the ideal troops for spaceship boarding actions, why are they so big? Wouldn't that be a distinct disadvantage in the narrow, twisting corridors of a spaceship?

Kage2020
17-07-2010, 18:07
Good cool those (wo)men! :D


Something I never understood is, if Space Marines were supposed to be the ideal troops for spaceship boarding actions, why are they so big? Wouldn't that be a distinct disadvantage in the narrow, twisting corridors of a spaceship?
Hence the "excuse" where ships have cavernous corridors. Along with the traditional medieval imagery, it's basically to make Marines more useful. ;)

Kage

Son of Sanguinius
17-07-2010, 18:20
On battleships that can be over a kilometer, one would imagine it saves a great deal of resources to make the corridors cavernous.

Kage2020
17-07-2010, 18:23
Because with ships over a kilometer it... No. You're going to have to explain that particular justification.

Kage

Iuris
17-07-2010, 19:41
Physical ability is always specialized. Endurance (very light build - eg. long distance running) will mean a completely different constitution from a high burst power specialist (muscled as hell - eg. sprinter) or a raw total power (massive and far from slim - eg. weight lifter).

However, in all these cases, one thing is certain: the quality of the muscles themselves improves. And with that comes extra weight.

A side note: apes have denser and therefore stronger muscle tissue than humans. Good side: they can swing through trees and break human spines with ease. Bad side: too heavy to swim.

Son of Sanguinius
17-07-2010, 20:16
Because with ships over a kilometer it... No. You're going to have to explain that particular justification.

Kage

It seems to me that the size of the ship already demands a tremendous use of resources. The builders of that ship would want to cut down on the resources wherever possible, either to maximize whatever profit they might get or have the resources for other construction. Making large corridors cuts down on the number of corridors and fills the ship with more open space. My guess is that this would help keep weight down without sacrificing anything for durability, seeing as if a round penetrated that far into the ship, it's going to cause terrible damage anyway.

Now, I should qualify my statement. I assume that ships contain a few massive, primary corridors that are meant for the majority of transportation, and a great many smaller corridors that wind their way through the inner workings of the ship, primarily serving as maintenance hallways and the like. In the context of Space Marine size, the massive corridors would most likely have direct access to a command bridge, flight decks, defense systems, and maybe engine rooms, all of which would be primary targets for Space Marine boarding parties.

Am I making any sense?

UselessThing
17-07-2010, 21:15
War from darksiders is everything I want from a Space Marine:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_kr_vAyn9A

Wrap him in power armour and we are getting somewhere.

I like my Marines Massive.

Kage2020
17-07-2010, 23:51
Making large corridors cuts down on the number of corridors and fills the ship with more open space.
So, big ships demand big corridors because they are, well, big ships?


Am I making any sense?
You're practically an author. :D

Kage

imperial90
18-07-2010, 01:10
Well like he said, simply from a cost perspective its not as expensive if you have big hall ways where the main traffic sections of the ship are, its more efficient for transporting materials across the ship, less congestion, and cheaper too, thats not to say all of the ship would be like that, obviously a marine would never fit in something like a small maintenance duct, but having big hallways to all the main sections of the 6 kilometer long ship makes sense more then simply because its a big ship.....

Balgora
18-07-2010, 02:10
I still think their weight is fine because every society has to cope with big things like furniture, local wildlife, transporting large amounts of food around for the population, huge..genetically enhanced tyranid killing machines.

Ya know, the usual stuff that makes streets and important structures large enough to deal with several people going in and out through each exit at once.

Also

if in doubt..BLOW IT UP!

the golden rule of mine shafts and corridors you can't go down during a firefight!

Malice313
18-07-2010, 03:33
They can bail out of a thunderhawk at 60,000 ft without a jump pack by lowering their weight to human weight and taking the impact although it's damaging to the suit's shock absorbers and fiber bundles.

Even at the weight of a human with super tough everything such a fall would certianly kill a marine even in super armour.

The problem is that a body moving at high speed is actually a sack of individual organs moving at high speed stopping the body suddenly doesn't make the individual organs want to stop with it, so the internal organs of a Marine try and squirt out the bottom of his impervious suit.

Even if you some how managed to stop the mass migration of vital organs, the blood inside the organs would try to keep going causing blood vessels to burst throughout the body... and a leaky brain is not a good thing.

Rapid acceleration is basically the same in reverse, and this is what kills Marines in their armour in the middle of a concussive explosion. Their organs try to go one way, their blood another, but the big old heavy suit don't want to budge; ending in a Fail of fatal proportions.

When concussive shell started to be used in WWI soldiers recounted of seeing roads covered in empty uniforms and boots with the trees lining the streets draped with naked corpse of the men blown clean out of their clothes, barely a mark on them.

Son of Sanguinius
18-07-2010, 03:59
So, big ships demand big corridors because they are, well, big ships?


You're practically an author. :D

Kage

Yes to the first, thank you to the second.

Col. Tartleton
18-07-2010, 04:53
Heroic scale is 32mm not 28mm.:D

...and then look at a those Kenyan marathon runners who can run non-stop without sleep for days on end. Surely such stamina means they should 15 feet tall and weigh 1,500 kgs and survive being dropped into combat from another planet!!!

Hang on, they are like 5'4 and weigh 50kgs and break bones slipping over in the shower!?!:wtf:

Have a look at a sprinter, a pole vaulter. They look NOTHING like that beefcake. I reckon that guy in the pic you provided would have a heart attack about half way through that sort of psychical excretion you describe.

I didn't say they look like that, I said they're so large and dense they weigh twice as much as him. They'd look like Brock Lesnar but stretched out (making them heavier but less bulky looking) by about a foot and a half in height and with bones as heavy as rock and as hard as metal. I mean the black carapace and rib plating make their chest cavity harder to penetrate then our modern bullet proofing naked.

On top of that I said it would be impossible for a marine to do cool daring heroic stuff without the armor making him able to run through concrete walls or leap bridges. These guys go toe to toe with Eldar in close combat and come out victorious. The fluff has Eldar being able to predict and predodge bullets like Jedis do. I think people underestimate how insane 40k is. It's full blow insane. :D





Even at the weight of a human with super tough everything such a fall would certianly kill a marine even in super armour.

The problem is that a body moving at high speed is actually a sack of individual organs moving at high speed stopping the body suddenly doesn't make the individual organs want to stop with it, so the internal organs of a Marine try and squirt out the bottom of his impervious suit.

Even if you some how managed to stop the mass migration of vital organs, the blood inside the organs would try to keep going causing blood vessels to burst throughout the body... and a leaky brain is not a good thing.

Rapid acceleration is basically the same in reverse, and this is what kills Marines in their armour in the middle of a concussive explosion. Their organs try to go one way, their blood another, but the big old heavy suit don't want to budge; ending in a Fail of fatal proportions.

When concussive shell started to be used in WWI soldiers recounted of seeing roads covered in empty uniforms and boots with the trees lining the streets draped with naked corpse of the men blown clean out of their clothes, barely a mark on them.

Pshh people have survived 30,000 foot falls before. A Marine definitely could. At least four people have done it with no protective gear. A marine's armor can turn anything shy of an anti tank missile and negate the trauma. If they can do that they can survive atmospheric reentry. It's in the fluff as well. They only use drop pods because drop pods aren't falling, remember, they're fired INTO the ground to avoid flack and SAMs. They rocket into the ground and then retro burn the last few thousand feet I'd imagine. That sort of negative acceleration would still keep it at greater then free fall. I think you're totally ignoring what the suspensor systems are for.

Next you'll say Superman can't fly because he's not flapping...

Weaver
18-07-2010, 06:18
I realise this a somewhat serious discussion, but I find this (http://www.truemeaningoflife.com/images/elevatus.jpg) to be most relevant regardless.

Malice313
18-07-2010, 07:46
Pshh people have survived 30,000 foot falls before. A Marine definitely could. At least four people have done it with no protective gear.

Suspensor Systems are a game mechanic that negates movement restrictions imposed by heavy weapons.

Four people you say... just stood up and walked away too I'll wager. I guess the thousands of other mangled smears of bone and gristle just weren't doing it right. I stand corrected. Besides this is going OT.

metal bawks
18-07-2010, 09:43
Good cool those (wo)men! :D


Hence the "excuse" where ships have cavernous corridors. Along with the traditional medieval imagery, it's basically to make Marines more useful. ;)

Kage

Ah, the good ol' Evil Overlord spaceship design. The corridors come with convenient alcoves or protruding structural supports which the Marines can use for cover in a firefight, yes? (and which otherwise seem to serve no other purpose whatsoever) :D

Phoebus
18-07-2010, 12:23
This is generally why Space Marines tend to be a tad on the annoying side. Rather than seeing strengths and weaknesses to them, everyone seems to want to find ways to invalidate a weakness to make them into "AWESUMZ Spehs Mareenz" (or however that is spelled). Rather than having their size and weight work against them in interesting ways you get suspensors thrown into so that they don't have any tactical limitations for their super awesome armoured selves.

Not sure why people do that but... Well, I like my Marines to have flaws, mayhap even limitations that were not accounted for when they were created. You know, that kind of last-minute project that the Emperor didn't account for but, seemingly, he managed to get all of his ducks in a row despite this. :shifty:

Kage
They are flawed though.

They are brainwashed on multiple levels. Their creation ritual is flawed on account of quasi- (or literal) religious indoctrination. They are often flat-out insane. They have trouble interacting with normal humans and often lack the facilities to reconcile with logic.

On the other hand, their physical standard, their superhuman nature and stature, were a product of an extensive experiment, in a controlled environment, presided over by the greatest minds of the time, not to mention a superhuman genius with a bout 30-40,000 years of experience.

To each their own, I suppose, but I don't find anything wrong with trying to debate away hypothetical physical weaknesses that Astartes may or may not have. Personally, I have no issue with someone bringing up the plausibility of Astartes not being super-strong, etc.--it's well attested that the loss of knowledge and increase in superstition has led many Chapters to debasing their creation "rites", resulting in the loss of use of specific organs, etc.

... That is, as long as they take into consideration that there are certain deal breakers where this is concerned. E.g., we know that failure to implant the Black Carapace equals no real Astartes, since this prevents them from full use of power armour. Similarly, I doubt a 6', 180lbs "Astartes" without enhanced skeletal structure and musculature would qualify as a Space Marine.

Kage2020
18-07-2010, 14:36
They are flawed though.
In a meaningful way, though?


They are brainwashed on multiple levels.
Not so much when you read through something like the Horus Heresy novels. We'll have to see what happens when Deathwatch is released, but I would not be surprised if they're represented as being as human as any other.


They are often flat-out insane. They have trouble interacting with normal humans and often lack the facilities to reconcile with logic.
You might find it difficult to find evidence for this standpoint, even though the "psychopathic killer" approach finds equal tenure in the minds of the fans as the "noble knight" (both are just use terms similar to, for example, the "Adeptus Me-can-icus" vs. the "Adeptus Me-can't-icus"). About the only thing that sticks out in my memory with regards to the social difficulties of Marines is Brother Cynewolf and having his pinky finger sticking out while drinking tea. In fact, the "Hulk accidentally smash!" might be the primary method of representing any awkwardness.


On the other hand, their physical standard, their superhuman nature and stature, were a product of an extensive experiment, in a controlled environment...
Well, excepting that quite clearly it was not a "controlled environment," and certainly wasn't the result of fastidious planning. After all, Marines weren't really on the schedule until Chaos absconded with the Primarchs...

With that said, though, my point was more to do with the idea that "Marines are too heavy!" "Nooo! The greatest scientific military achievement of all time cannot be so flawed! Let us invent a superscience justification that will moderate this weakness!" (Though as has been indicated, this may not be the problem that it has previously been suggested.) Then again, I've never had a problem that the average human can, unarmoured, touch their toes. The fact that Marines cannot do that (or can they!?) in tank-like armour doesn't really bother me that much.

YMMV.

Kage

Col. Tartleton
19-07-2010, 01:08
Suspensor Systems are a game mechanic that negates movement restrictions imposed by heavy weapons.

Four people you say... just stood up and walked away too I'll wager. I guess the thousands of other mangled smears of bone and gristle just weren't doing it right. I stand corrected. Besides this is going OT.

Suspensors are anti gravity tech. Heavy weapons have them to make the gun really light. But all marines do (or should) have them in their armor. When you're fighting in varying gravity situations from zero g to a very large planet it would make sense to be able to have some control of your gravity.

I'm pretty sure if they survived they were unhurt. It's sort of spectacularly dead or just ouch my butt.

Motley
19-07-2010, 06:26
Hey i found this a couple of months ago ...

FrankieKhainor
19-07-2010, 06:44
Stairs? Stairs? Space marines have jump packs!

cornonthecob
19-07-2010, 08:35
It doesn't happen often , but in some black library novels they do mention weight difficulties.

Also think of terminators , the chapter masters realise that stairs , not aliens, are their biggest enemy and teleport them into battle instead of watching them slowly try to walk up stairs.

Iuris
19-07-2010, 09:26
Philverse is getting infectuous...

Philip S
19-07-2010, 09:31
BTW, since stealth fields are mentioned: whenever I think about the strength of a space marine, the feats of the Predators (of the movie and video game fame) come to mind. Very tough and hard to kill but still mortal, skillful but possible to defeat, and feats of strength being holding up a man in one hand and similar. Just as a baseline.
I think that is pretty fair. I think they may be a little bit stronger thanks to their extra mass (a marine as I imagine them is much more massive than a Predator!). I figure a marine is still bound by physics and tend not to be 'movie strong'.


Am I making any sense?
Plenty. I would also add advanced tech = modular units. We see it on our modern world in construction. If we change ISO to STC, and pack all large appliances in standard STC units and all gear into a similar sized STC standard crates (the units and crates could share the same outer shell), it starts to make a lot of sense to have large corridors.

A whole air-recycling, heating boiler, water storage tanks, battery backup, plasma engine etc. units can all be the same size externally and all fit into a standard space. This would allow customisation within a standard STC frame, allowing one housing frame type to be used when building (or during repair), and it's then fitted units that will determine any specialisation.

This means that 'framers' need only know about the standard STC framework and can quickly fit or repair it up to code, 'fitters' simply slide in the unit and hook it up, neither really understands how it all work as the internal structures are 'secret Ad-Mec' stuff.

In the case of damage, slide out the damaged unit, and send it back for servicing (Ad-Mec), replace with one from stores. It keeps the framers and fitters ignorant, the Ad-Mec can centralise their repair areas away from prying eyes, and all the corridors have to be able to handle quick traffic of this units (hence large, and what the marine is designed to fit through).

As to why the marine would be designed to fit through STC standard corridors? I figure marines were designed at the beginning of the great crusade to re-take human worlds, and the most stubborn and difficult humans worlds to re-conquer would be worlds with some strong elements of preserved STC. The Ad-Mec want to Salvage STC so the marines go in to gain control - and marines can go anywhere STC units go (this may be one reason the Ad-Mec are all for Marines, and why the helped in the project so much: enlightened self interest).

In some ways a marine could be thought of as STC unit compliant (as in: not exceeding the maximum dimensions of weight of a standard STC unit/ crate).

Nowadays the marines do much more than I imagine the parameters of their initially designed role. This introduces tactical weaknesses. Marine are not great in the open, they are not great in non-STC environments. Fortunately the IG are, and if it's a world that lacks potent STC, then the Guard and Storm Troopers can handle it. If the IG run into trouble the marine can turn up for a quick strike, but they would be vulnerable in environments outside of what their original role (as I imagine it) was designed for. The marines would not want to hang around.


Hey i found this a couple of months ago ...
Yeah, that some off my stuff. It depicts my ideas on marine structure that I used when building a 3D model for use on book covers. Though the armour is 'official' and the 3D model was used, the internal structure design is not official. More here;

Space Marine Morphology (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_9_Marine_1_Morphology.shtml)


Philverse is getting infectuous...
Indeed :D

Philip

Polaria
19-07-2010, 09:47
I think the original assumptions based on bodybuilders are flawed to start with. Bodybuilders aim for low body fat and high muscle weight. Strictly put they only care how their body looks and don't really aim for functional muscles with strenght and endurance. This has the result that they have quite some strenght in select (highly visible) muscle groups, quite a lot of less strenght in others (non-visible) muscle groups, very little static strenght and very little endurance. All in all, bodybuilders generally make extremely bad soldiers unless they adjust their training a lot, since static stranght and endurance are lacking.

Space Marines, being 40K equivalent of modern special forces, don't care what they look like, but care a hell of a lot about functional strenght and endurance. Thats why people like SEALs train not for muscle mass but for all-around physical fitness. The result is that they tend not to look like bodybuilders but actually perform far better in almost everything.

Balgora
19-07-2010, 10:35
another fun thought for the debate of weight, fighting on different worlds means fighting under different gravity.

Sai-Lauren
19-07-2010, 12:18
That's all well and good, but--before we even get to the whole "the Emperor and his finest scientists probably thought about this already" angle (e.g., sticking Black Carapaces inside prospective Marines without compensating for body overheating), let's focus on the factors that pertain to this topic.

But there is still an effective human "design limit" that you just cannot go past without



Except the Emperor's technology seems to succeed in subjects from a remarkable broad spectrum of environments, dietary conditions, etc.

Depends on how much the Apothecaries actually know - are they just injecting things without really knowing what they're doing, or are they actually making quite complex changes, but all they're realy lacking is the basis of why they're doing it.

But that's why I believe the implants get primed with some of the recipients blood - they're borderline stem cells and absorb the cell protein markers and other biochemical information before being implanted so they reduce the risk of rejection or malfunction.

And the recruit will probably get fed up to achieve their natural height after recruitment and during first stage implants - except for the UM, who basically take their recruits from an Olympic Games style event, and are likely to have been well-fed, so they're at or about that level anyway.



This is generally why Space Marines tend to be a tad on the annoying side. Rather than seeing strengths and weaknesses to them, everyone seems to want to find ways to invalidate a weakness to make them into "AWESUMZ Spehs Mareenz" (or however that is spelled). Rather than having their size and weight work against them in interesting ways you get suspensors thrown into so that they don't have any tactical limitations for their super awesome armoured selves.

Not sure why people do that but... Well, I like my Marines to have flaws, mayhap even limitations that were not accounted for when they were created. You know, that kind of last-minute project that the Emperor didn't account for but, seemingly, he managed to get all of his ducks in a row despite this.

What else is the last minute for, except to find the huge problem that you've managed to miss so far? :D



I want marines human sized. I want them to, sometimes, HERESY!, climb out of their armor and fight unarmored for stealth and mobility reasons. I want them to NEED SUPPORT...

Agreed.

For instance - a seven foot marine is a really big guy, which means he has extra leverage for, say, hitting things in melee, but conversely, is a much bigger target to be shot. Plus all his internal organs are proportionally bigger too (as they have to service the larger body), and so there's more chance of something hitting something vital.



I'd sooner have the marines' armor have slots for attaching ghillie suit strips than stealth fields Low tech rules

Agreed again - anyone else remember The Stealth Marines? :rolleyes:



On battleships that can be over a kilometer, one would imagine it saves a great deal of resources to make the corridors cavernous.

No, because you have to heat it, light it, reprocess the air in it, make larger bulkheads and similar reinforcing structures, not to mention all the cargo/munitions space you're taking up...

Take a tour around HMS Belfast or a similar vessel to get a feel - unless it's the hanger bay on a carrier or a corridor that needs a lot of space to get items through quickly in combat conditions, they're incredibly cramped.



Even at the weight of a human with super tough everything such a fall would certianly kill a marine even in super armour.

The problem is that a body moving at high speed is actually a sack of individual organs moving at high speed stopping the body suddenly doesn't make the individual organs want to stop with it, so the internal organs of a Marine try and squirt out the bottom of his impervious suit.

Even if you some how managed to stop the mass migration of vital organs, the blood inside the organs would try to keep going causing blood vessels to burst throughout the body... and a leaky brain is not a good thing.

Basically, arteries would rupture - and they would die through internal haemorraging.



Pshh people have survived 30,000 foot falls before. A Marine definitely could. At least four people have done it with no protective gear. A marine's armor can turn anything shy of an anti tank missile and negate the trauma. If they can do that they can survive atmospheric reentry. It's in the fluff as well. They only use drop pods because drop pods aren't falling, remember, they're fired INTO the ground to avoid flack and SAMs. They rocket into the ground and then retro burn the last few thousand feet I'd imagine. That sort of negative acceleration would still keep it at greater then free fall.

Wikipedia's only got one listed, and most of the survivors of high falls IIRC landed in places like forests, where the trees managed to slow them enough to make the impact survivable.



JAT stewardess Vesna Vulovic survived a fall of 33,000 feet (10,000 m) on January 26, 1972 when she was aboard JAT Flight 367. The plane was brought down by explosives over Srbská Kamenice in the former Czechoslovakia (now Czech Republic). The Serbian stewardess suffered a broken skull, three broken vertebrae (one crushed completely), and was in a coma for 27 days . In an interview she commented that, according to the man who found her, "...I was in the middle part of the plane. I was found with my head down and my colleague on top of me. One part of my body with my leg was in the plane and my head was out of the plane. A catering trolley was pinned against my spine and kept me in the plane. The man who found me, says I was very lucky. He was in the German Army as a medic during World War two. He knew how to treat me at the site of the accident."

(Her injuries underlined).

It's believed that the crew of Challenger were killed by the impact of the crew section with the water, not by the explosion and decompression.



I think you're totally ignoring what the suspensor systems are for.

Despite you changing it's purpose to no longer be there just to offset their weight and now effectively becoming a full flight support system (Is it a Bird? Is it a Plane? No, it's Marneus Calgar b****-slapping an Avatar - again! :D) - what if they suffer a power failure, or get hit by an EM field weapon (Swooping Hawks playing tag :)), or even tumbled by wind-sheer?

Wheee, SPLAT!



another fun thought for the debate of weight, fighting on different worlds means fighting under different gravity.

Which means the Marine has to dial up the power to offset it (thus reducing the suits endurance), and the floors have to be stronger anyway to handle the extra loading. :)

Kage2020
19-07-2010, 12:48
Philverse is getting infectuous...
And it's fatal once you've got it. Bring on the ebola! ;)

Kage

Philip S
19-07-2010, 14:48
Take a tour around HMS Belfast or a similar vessel to get a feel - unless it's the hanger bay on a carrier or a corridor that needs a lot of space to get items through quickly in combat conditions, they're incredibly cramped.
Imperial ships could be like this.

I figure them to be a little different ;)


Despite you changing it's purpose to no longer be there just to offset their weight and now effectively becoming a full flight support system
I quite like the original Rogue Trader idea of them having jump pack (and the bigger packs as full flight packs). This would allow a marine to jump off any structure, and even make 'Hulk' like bounding jumps. Get for the extra speed, flat jump, barge charge too! (make good use of those massive shoulder pads :chrome:)

I know they exhausts are still used in zero-g, but a little more and they would be great down on the surface.

I think GW moved away from this as marines are pretty powerful (despite not being anything like as powerful as they are in the background) and adding speed would seriously unbalance the game.

I would make a lot of sense for marines to have jump-packs as standard kit, and it would explain the back-packs design (it just looks like a jump pack!)

Other benefits is that they could use them like grav-chutes and jump out of Thunderhawks but that may be too awesome and people's eyes may melt.


And it's fatal once you've got it. Bring on the ebola! ;)
Fatal?

...

:p

Philip

Kage2020
19-07-2010, 15:14
Nothing wrong with making Marines appropriately awesome, at least in my mind. The trouble comes from them just being made into a generally awesome Swiss Army Knife that has invisible blades for all the situations that the thing might not have been designed for. :D

Kage

Elanthanis
19-07-2010, 15:53
I kind of like how Deathwatch gives appropriate penalties to dexterity and the like for Space Marine power armor.

The other issue I have with the "Marine Anatomy" drawing is that the image of the space marine proportionally varies based on whoever is providing the image. The other fundamental issue I have with the look of the body are the assumptions of armor thickness. While it's quite reasonable to expect the mass of someone who has multiple hearts, extra thick skin, redesigned skeletal structure, etc to look that massive, we simply don't and can't know where the armor of the Marine is thickest (other than the obvious shoulderpad ;) ).

While I realize that this is a totally different universe and totally different "soldier" type, I've always found the following incredibly awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7d5XheWiBk

I've always assume that Terminator armor was far more likely to have the remote manipulation systems built into the armor to explain the extra bulk, kind of like the fingers in the previous video.

Collinsas
19-07-2010, 16:40
...and even make 'Hulk' like bounding jumps...

See You on the Bounce Trooper!

Kage2020
19-07-2010, 16:41
I kind of like how Deathwatch gives appropriate penalties to dexterity and the like for Space Marine power armor.
I forget, but isn't that for just non-Marine-sized stuff? Regardless, an impact onto their manual dexterity while wearing the gauntlets is one of the good little bits of simulation/crunch that I got from the Final Sanction preview adventure. :D


The other fundamental issue I have with the look of the body are the assumptions of armor thickness.
There are other images of this aren't quite as extreme as Phil's, but I'm still trying to work with the artist with regards to releasing these. (Or, rather, find an appropriate venue to this and continue the great work they started.)


...we simply don't and can't know where the armor of the Marine is thickest (other than the obvious shoulderpad ;) ).
On the other hand we can infer some things. It just depends on the limitations of those inferences. Phil, for example, states that he took the armour as "true" and shaped the Marine around that. The other artist that I'm referring to took what they considered a "reasonable Marine" and shaped the armour to them. Each on is going to get people going "Hang on a minute!" but they're just different approaches to the same goal. And both based on assumptions. :D


While I realize that this is a totally different universe and totally different "soldier" type, I've always found the following incredibly awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7d5XheWiBk
I always find that whatever I find to be inspiring is, well, inspiring. Equally you could have posted to an Iron Man clip. ;)


I've always assume that Terminator armor was far more likely to have the remote manipulation systems built into the armor to explain the extra bulk, kind of like the fingers in the previous video.
I agree. It is, after all, tactical dreadnought armour. The dreadnought is merely an extension of the premise.

That's just me, though. YMMV.

Kage

LuckyKa
19-07-2010, 18:22
After reading the vast majority of the posts here, how would you Kage, And Philip S. And any one else ret-con the Marines.

Keeping the genetically/surgically altered human side. E.g the double heart, extra lung and etc of the Marines. How would you each portray the Marines?

Would you have them keep the height, but using armour as portrayed in the Starcraft clip? Where the 'armoured limbs' extend beyond the wearers. Or would you have them as a "normal" sized human with armour made to fit? (Well, it would still be hammy-downs - but you get the idea) Such like medieval armour for example.
.

Son of Sanguinius
19-07-2010, 18:35
Question for a different thread, LuckyKa. Go to Philip's site for fun speculation.

massey
19-07-2010, 19:46
In the real world, the design of tanks were influenced by how wide the roads were in Europe. Bridges can't handle more than a certain weight? Then your tank needs to be lighter than that. Tunnels through mountains are only X feet wide? Then your tank needs to be able to fit through that.

In the Imperium, presumably marines are not so big as to be trapped in standard hallways, or too heavy to fall through stairs. My thought is that STC tech was something developed in the early colonization days, sort of a "colony starter kit", and so you could go from world to world and find that railroad tracks are 4 feet, 8 1/2 inches wide on every one of them (the same width used in the US and Britain, and according to urban legend, is the same width as Roman chariot wheels). It would be the same width everywhere because that's the width that the computer told the colonists to make it. Early spaceports would have had machinery that was designed to work with the standard landing crafts of the day, and those probably had certain thrust characteristics, and required certain strength supports, and so on.

Basically, you'd get one of those "this is the way it's always been done", which would result in baseline construction standards on each world. The hallways have to be at least this wide, otherwise the maintenance droid doesn't fit. Sure, some shacks and tenemants wouldn't follow those design standards, but Space Marines probably aren't so concerned with leaving those things standing...

Son of Sanguinius
19-07-2010, 20:20
In the real world, the design of tanks were influenced by how wide the roads were in Europe. Bridges can't handle more than a certain weight? Then your tank needs to be lighter than that. Tunnels through mountains are only X feet wide? Then your tank needs to be able to fit through that.

In the Imperium, presumably marines are not so big as to be trapped in standard hallways, or too heavy to fall through stairs. My thought is that STC tech was something developed in the early colonization days, sort of a "colony starter kit", and so you could go from world to world and find that railroad tracks are 4 feet, 8 1/2 inches wide on every one of them (the same width used in the US and Britain, and according to urban legend, is the same width as Roman chariot wheels). It would be the same width everywhere because that's the width that the computer told the colonists to make it. Early spaceports would have had machinery that was designed to work with the standard landing crafts of the day, and those probably had certain thrust characteristics, and required certain strength supports, and so on.

Basically, you'd get one of those "this is the way it's always been done", which would result in baseline construction standards on each world. The hallways have to be at least this wide, otherwise the maintenance droid doesn't fit. Sure, some shacks and tenemants wouldn't follow those design standards, but Space Marines probably aren't so concerned with leaving those things standing...

Good point. And when you get to something the size and power of a land raider, it can plow through a lot of comparatively smaller construction safely.

Sai-Lauren
20-07-2010, 08:27
In the real world, the design of tanks were influenced by how wide the roads were in Europe. Bridges can't handle more than a certain weight? Then your tank needs to be lighter than that. Tunnels through mountains are only X feet wide? Then your tank needs to be able to fit through that.

WW2 US armour had width restrictions imposed on the designs to ship it across the Atlantic as effectively as possible which is why they're tall and narrow whilst British, German and French armour is low and wide (*), ground pressure was a big factor in late war tank design and tactical doctrine also plays a significant part - for example, are your tanks designed for infantry support, and thus need to be slow with heavy armour, with lightly armoured, fast dedicated tank hunters to go after enemy armour - which was the WW2 US doctrine).

Have a look at the issues the faced with things like the Tortoise and the Maus (plus the plans for the Ratt and the Monster - there's a super-heavy right there :)).

The problem with Marine armour isn't when they're stood on a parade ground or marching along a road, it's when they're trying to navigate through bombed out buildings, through partially collapsed subway tunnels and twisted space hulk corridors - basically, everything they'll find in a warzone - that their weight and volume starts to play against them.

(*) Which could of course be why Leman Russes are tall - they're designed to minimise their deck footprint whilst on board transport vessels and shuttles.

Philip S
20-07-2010, 11:45
The problem with Marine armour isn't when they're stood on a parade ground or marching along a road, it's when they're trying to navigate through bombed out buildings, through partially collapsed subway tunnels and twisted space hulk corridors - basically, everything they'll find in a warzone - that their weight and volume starts to play against them.
That depends on the environments marines are deployed too, I suspect the worlds they end up on have environments that are heavily influenced by STC (serious threat or worth saving), and I imagine that STC environments can accommodate them with ease.

Philip

Sai-Lauren
20-07-2010, 11:58
That depends on the environments marines are deployed too, I suspect the worlds they end up on have environments that are heavily influenced by STC (serious threat or worth saving), and I imagine that STC environments can accommodate them with ease.

Philip
In normal circumstances yes, but once you start throwing the seismic effects of orbital fire, detonations of everything from frag grenades to macro cannon shells, and incendiary bombs and flamethrowers into the mix, it's a whole different kettle of fish. :)

Philip S
20-07-2010, 12:16
In normal circumstances yes, but once you start throwing the seismic effects of orbital fire, detonations of everything from frag grenades to macro cannon shells, and incendiary bombs and flamethrowers into the mix, it's a whole different kettle of fish. :)
Fair enough - though I suspect damage from these would not result in neat humans sized pathways either. It's all relative. Stuff is going to have to be moved, or new paths made.

I like to think of marines more as one-man-IFV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IFV). Marine make new holes, they clear their own path.

But most of the time they are running around STC Imperial Gothic environments with massive doors, cavernous rooms, and wide corridors. The same holds true for ships - in Space Hulk, the corridors are wide enough for Terminators to fit through!

Marines aren't really for environments we see every day - they are not destined for worlds as pathetically weak and backwards as ours.

I don't really see marines respecting the integrity of a semi-detached house in the burbs (though who they would end up in their I have not idea!), I do not see them as wanting to use the doors or the tiny stair case - they would walk through it, tear it down and look through the rubble for what they were after. Absolutely no respect for STC architecture (it all has to come down anyway when the Ad-Mec turn up, so why even attempt to preserve it?).

Mind you I think a mag of bolts would take down a whole row of terraced houses...

Philip

Sai-Lauren
20-07-2010, 12:47
Fair enough - though I suspect damage from these would not result in neat humans sized pathways either. It's all relative. Stuff is going to have to be moved, or new paths made.

But it's a lot easier to make a path if they're smaller and lighter... :p



I like to think of marines more as one-man-IFV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IFV). Marine make new holes, they clear their own path.

I disagree with the IFV categorisation - they're heavy shock infantry.



But most of the time they are running around STC Imperial Gothic environments with massive doors, cavernous rooms, and wide corridors. The same holds true for ships - in Space Hulk, the corridors are wide enough for Terminators to fit through!

Again, I disagree - if they're only designed to operate on Imperial Human worlds, they're going to be no use in boarding actions, or on Necron Tomb Worlds, Tau Sept worlds, Eldar Craftworlds etc - and Abaddon would never have got that relic from the Ratling world because he'd never have been able to fit in their burrows to retrieve it (just look at Gandalf bouncing his head off everything in Frodo's burrow in Fellowship of the Ring :)).

The Administration offices and parts of Governors palace and so on for some worlds might be as you describe, but the residential areas, especially on a hive world like Necromunda, are going to be a lot more cramped.

Slight digression here - I started planning out some buiding floor plans a while back, based on a 30cm square footprint with 3cm of pavement around. One of the building designs was going to be a small residental tower block that would have had four flats per floor with a central stair well, and each flat would have been a rectangle 10cm by 15cm (assuming a figure representing someone of 6' in height is about 3cm, that's roughly 20 by 30 feet), with four rooms (entrance hallway, bedroom, bathroom and kitchen/living space) for a couple and possibly a single child.

A manufactorum out in the suburbs of a major city will probably have streets surrounding it, each made of a line of 20-30 terraced houses where the workers live, and each house may only have four or five rooms.

(And possibly someone standing at the street corner saying "There's trouble at t' mill!" :D )



I don't really see marines respecting the integrity of a semi-detached house in the burbs (though who they would end up in their I have not idea!), I do not see them as wanting to use the doors or the tiny stair case - they would walk through it, tear it down and look through the rubble for what they were after. Absolutely no respect for STC architecture (it all has to come down anyway when the Ad-Mec turn up, so why even attempt to preserve it?).

Why waste the firepower or energy it'd take to destroy it if they don't have to?
Why deny themselves potential cover and advantageous fire points?
Why destroy buildings that can potentially be used as a forward command point or to house refugees?

Polaria
20-07-2010, 13:07
Again, I disagree - if they're only designed to operate on Imperial Human worlds, they're going to be no use in boarding actions, or on Necron Tomb Worlds, Tau Sept worlds, Eldar Craftworlds etc

Just a little thingy... According to illustartion Necrons seem to be pretty much as tall as Marines. Thus Tomb Worlds would be okay.

Anyway, I started to think this from another angle... All organizations, even marines, have history and much of the "how things are done" is directly descendant of that organizational history.

Now all the marine special traits come from the Primarchs and the Primarchs gene-seed hasn't been tampered since. Maybe Marines are too big and have problems in Imperial cities. I could see that happening. What you have to ask then is why Primarchs were made so huge in the first place?

Philip S
20-07-2010, 13:23
But it's a lot easier to make a path if they're smaller and lighter... :p
Depends on what is blocking your path and what you have to make holes in.


I disagree with the IFV categorisation - they're heavy shock infantry.
In powered armour. That's like a vehicle you wear.


Again, I disagree - if they're only designed to operate on Imperial Human worlds, they're going to be no use in boarding actions, or on Necron Tomb Worlds, Tau Sept worlds, Eldar Craftworlds etc -
Necrons, Tau, Eldar and Nid environments all have huge corridors too.


and Abaddon would never have got that relic from the Ratling world because he'd never have been able to fit in their burrows to retrieve it (just look at Gandalf bouncing his head off everything in Frodo's burrow in Fellowship of the Ring :)).
Um, if the Ratlings made an enviroment to their spec then regular humans are not going to fit either, so I think an alternate methods would be used. Perhaps the same as humans use of small animals like foxes - smoke them out (marines are smart and cunning like that). Followed by coercion of those smoked out if needs be.


The Administration offices and parts of Governors palace and so on for some worlds might be as you describe, but the residential areas, especially on a hive world like Necromunda, are going to be a lot more cramped.
Again it depends on the design, and there are differing types of cramped. For example a pod hotel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsule_hotel) is cramped, but the corridor down the middle may be quite wide (to allow pods to be moved about).

A hive may be cramped, the corridors littered with all kinds of crap, but the actual corridor may be quite wide (enough for a marine), though as the marine charges down it he may take half the shanty town shacks with him!


Slight digression here - I started planning out some buiding floor plans a while back
Sounds like fun, please send me a link when you have them up!

I'm going to be doing my own floor plans (expansion on current ideas) once I work out the modular STC systems and what I have to accommodate.


Why waste the firepower or energy it'd take to destroy it if they don't have to?
If they didn't have to: they wouldn't.


Why deny themselves potential cover and advantageous fire points?
Why deny themselves a clear view to the enemy?

They have autosense and bolters, and could probably shoot through flimsy non-STC buildings to hit targets on the other side.


Why destroy buildings that can potentially be used as a forward command point or to house refugees?
Do they need a building as a forward command point? (seeing as they have power armour, vehicles and are a highly mobile strike force).

Would they house refugees in the war zone or ship them out? Seeing as marines are targeted and specific, they would be plenty of buildings left when they move on (and the rest would probably get flattened by the IG! I'm sure super heavy tanks are not 'burb friendly)

I imagine the scale of 40K warfare to be massive, and the effect it would have on weak buildings like we have now would be catastrophic (remember that seismic activity you were talking about? I know Imperial building would probably still be standings but most modern day buildings?).

I reckon the Imperium would not be impressed with out building codes, they are not up to STC code, they are not 'Imperial', and the Ad-Mec are going to build (supervise) new hab units anyway. Get everything up to code.

In the grand scheme of things the Ad-mec can only do so much; so I imagine a world may keep it's quaint buildings for a while, but once the Imperial war-machine has rolled over it, the world isn't going to get like for like replacements. Life changes.

Philip

Kozbot
20-07-2010, 17:34
One line that has always stuck with me was an inquisitor that called in a marine chapter to pacify a world because exterminatus was too much. Well after the chapter was done the world basically was destroyed and the inquisitor in question said that calling in the space marines should be considered the equivalent of exterminatus.

Basically I think that says that marines do utterly destroy their environment. Are they too big to fit in the house? That's what flamers are for, and those narrow corridors will make it a lot worse for anyone inside. Or just toss in a grenade. Or roll right over the building with a rhino or predator. Or put a few heavy bolter rounds into it. Marines show up to wreck the place, that's their deal. The whole purging the heretic, burning the mutant thing.

Son of Sanguinius
20-07-2010, 22:49
Leveling a building doesn't assure the destruction of the resistance. Even in a house of our age, there are plenty of areas that you can hide in where a flamethrower or even a couple grenades can't touch you. Which requires them to enter and kill everything inside. Otherwise the usual tactic would be drop a line of land raiders with dozer blades and have them pave the city. Which is a tad silly. :)

Kozbot
21-07-2010, 05:47
Except for really big buildings, which I would imagine would have decent sized access ways, a flame thrower will really kill everyone inside. There is a reason we used them in WWII. Now I have no idea how destructive a 40k grenade is but modern grenades can really mess up a building.

But really marines aren't concerned with guerrilla fighters, it's not what they're designed to counter. If you have a squad in a building that's too small to get into, hit it with a flamer, or some form of explosive for the chunky salsa effect, and call it a day. Marines break the backbone of resistance. Modern insurgent style combat doesn't really exist in the 40k setting.

Besides what are one or two troopers hiding out in a building going to do to a marine? If they stick their head out to take some pot shots, which will most likely bounce of their armor, then the marines will blow them away with bolter fire. If they just hide well then they aren't fighting and aren't much of a concern for the moment.

40k works largely on WWI style combat. None of the existing armies make a lick of sense if you apply modern tactics except maybe the Eldar because they have flying tanks and air superiority fighters. Everyone else would get annihilated by air power. With in the confines of the logic of 40k Space Marine size makes sense. And really with as many other things about Marines that don't work size is the least of their concerns.

Son of Sanguinius
21-07-2010, 06:16
40k combat utilizes whatever era that author is channeling for inspiration. They use our time as much as WWI, WWII, or even battles of "antiquity". I hate that word. Anyway, I'm not referring to guerilla fighters. Space Marines go after headquarters and concentrated pockets of resistance too strong for normal Guard, which if located in buildings, will require a lot more than grenades and flame throwers to dislodge. Don't get wrong- I totally agree on the effectiveness of those weapons in those scenarios, but my point is that they still have to barge their way in and make sure everything is dead. Which means they can't just douse with the flamer and move on, for example.

And what kind of an elite military force ignores hiding troops? Are you suggesting a tactical squad, as an example, would bypass a room of hostiles? What if those hostiles are carrying heavy weapons, like autocannons and heavy bolters? What if they have melta charges? At the very least, it prevents the Marines from getting caught in a crossfire due to carelessness. Even if caught in a bad situation, the Marines are likely tough enough to break out, but the Space Marines win because of their tactical advantages, not their power armor.

Polaria
21-07-2010, 07:42
Leveling a building doesn't assure the destruction of the resistance. Even in a house of our age, there are plenty of areas that you can hide in where a flamethrower or even a couple grenades can't touch you. Which requires them to enter and kill everything inside.

Actually in many cases contemporary military wisdom is against trying to destroy resistance by destroying buildings. The reason is not so much PR but something learned in battles of Stalingrad, Berlin and Monte Casino in WWII: Ruined buildings are easier to defend and harder to attack than intact ones.

From purely tactical point of view (disregarding totally any need for further use of the city) it is in attackers interest to keep the city reasonably intact in order to move his troops around and in order to spot the possible lines of fire defender might use. It is in defenders interest to force the attacker into demolishing the city because it actually slows down attackers, makes threats harder to spot and gives more cover to defenders.

Sai-Lauren
21-07-2010, 11:02
Besides what are one or two troopers hiding out in a building going to do to a marine? If they stick their head out to take some pot shots, which will most likely bounce of their armor, then the marines will blow them away with bolter fire. If they just hide well then they aren't fighting and aren't much of a concern for the moment.

Trigger a bomb/mine or other booby trap?
Snipe them in the back of their helmets, or the power packs?
Drop an RPG round into the middle of the squad?
Pick up their comms channels and pass them back to command so they can either jam them, ride them for HARM missiles or intercept and start to break the ciphers?
Even just reporting back strength, positions and movements, equipment carried and so on is a serious advantage for the enemy.

Philip S
21-07-2010, 12:24
Trigger a bomb/mine or other booby trap?
Snipe them in the back of their helmets, or the power packs?
Drop an RPG round into the middle of the squad?
Pick up their comms channels and pass them back to command so they can either jam them, ride them for HARM missiles or intercept and start to break the ciphers?
Even just reporting back strength, positions and movements, equipment carried and so on is a serious advantage for the enemy.
This is where my modal bolt (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K__10_Bolter.shtml#bolt-mode) retcon comes in handy. It's similar in concept to the AA12's Frag 12 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNPGvPa9NeQ) but all blended into one. You can fire a frag 12 (fragmentation) into a window with laser targeter and it will explode (air-burst) inside the room.

Using these a marine would pop a few into windows with enemy signature picked up by their autosense.

Though I still think the marines would not be needed in such areas, they are far more interested in the tougher STC environments, and alien environments with big aliens running around. I would go with IG storm troopers for 'marine' missions on worlds like ours, and only call in the marines when taking large military bunker complexes (and probably not even then). There are millions, perhaps billions of IG storm troopers, but only a million marines in the entire galaxy. Considering the number of wars, marines are in short supply, and why compromise them by putting them in an enviroment where they have weaknesses - it just doesn't sound smart.

I'm sure a marine can survive in an environment such as our world, but I think they would be leaving if seen. Better to drop pod into the heart of the enemy and blast everything then leave (mind you I have some nuts ideas about drop pods (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_7_AM__15_Drop_Pods.shtml) too)

Philip

Sai-Lauren
21-07-2010, 13:14
This is where my modal bolt retcon comes in handy. It's similar in concept to the AA12's Frag 12 but all blended into one. You can fire a frag 12 (fragmentation) into a window with laser targeter and it will explode (air-burst) inside the room.

Using these a marine would pop a few into windows with enemy signature picked up by their autosense.

Assuming they can pick them up on their sensors, and have the rounds to spare, and can be sure there's no friendlies or civilians in the area.

We can bounce around those kinds of topics all day though. :D



(mind you I have some nuts ideas about drop pods too)

Not bad, aside from needing a really good proof-reading and spell-check... :)

I'd dispute having all the fields on there though (IMO, something physical is normally less likely to go wrong than something electronic, doesn't cost as much, consume energy or require a backup) - maybe an internal AG field to offset some of the decelleration, possibly linked to the engines so that if the field goes offline during descent, the engines compensate and kick in earlier at a lower initial thrust - the moment that Stasis field switches off, everything in the Marines would instantly resume it's momentum straight down, they wouldn't suddenly stop moving just because the surrounding environment is stationary.

And to be honest, things like the Apollo capsules were effectively drop pods - they just opened parachutes at altitude rather than firing retros just before landing :).

(And for your alternate pod types list, I did have an idea of a small Forward Observer pod, for the Planetstrike strategem ;)).

jsullivanlaw
21-07-2010, 19:49
Space Marines can't weight that much! How would they ride those wolves?

Son of Sanguinius
21-07-2010, 21:38
Philip, I'm having a good laugh at all the free advertising you get here. ;)

Kudos to you, sir. Your work is inspired and inspirational.

Kage2020
22-07-2010, 01:25
He's the same with all the people that have "strong interpretations" of the 40k universe. They (we) take every opportunity to tell people how cool it is (in their own mind if no-one elses!). :D

You're right, though, it is certain inspirational! I think that more fans should treat the 40k universe like Phil, though obviously in their own way.

Kage

massey
22-07-2010, 03:05
Size and weight of marines really only becomes a real problem if you go with the high-end exaggerated sizes. If a marine looks like a 6'6" version of Duane Johnson ("The Rock"), and he's 7' tall in armor, weighing maybe 500 lbs total, then it's really not hard for him to get around at all. He'll be well within the safety limits of pretty much any structure that a normal human would feel comfortable in. He might fall through the floor of your kid's tree house, but otherwise he's fine. If you go with this idea that he weighs two tons in his armor, then yeah, he'll have problems.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 06:21
Marines in your base, breaking your tree houses.

Do we have any reliable information on Imperial construction? It would go a long way to guessing at a practical weight.

Woohoo! Post 1000.

Polaria
22-07-2010, 06:44
Little something to think of:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/6/63/Mk6corvuscompositiom.JPG

Now if you look at the places where the actual marine goes in this armor he will be a lot smaller than the actual armor. Which kinda makes sense since its power armor after all and you have to have room to fit the myomers into it.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 06:48
All that crap to bring, and he only has one extra mag.

Sai-Lauren
22-07-2010, 09:37
Marines in your base, breaking your tree houses.

Sounds like a Samuel L Jackson movie... :)

Get these ****** Marines outta my ****** tree house!



Do we have any reliable information on Imperial construction? It would go a long way to guessing at a practical weight.

I'd work off the kinds of worlds they'd colonise (limits are what the initial colonists can stand) - maybe a max gravity of about 1.3g, able to withstand a magnitude 6 earthquake and a category 3 Hurricane without anything more significant than having to replaster a few walls, and sealed against hard-vac/non-breathable atmospheres to about 3x standard atmospheric pressure and temperatures of about 40-50 celcius maximum or about -20 to -30 at the minimum end.

madd0ct0r
22-07-2010, 10:51
and given that two warhound titans managed to have a strafing match, inside a HIVE city, around a cathedral...
(ie, within one hive city level, with floors above and below)

It's safe to assume that the Imperium builds on a scale, strength and longegevity that we can only blink at.

Philip S
22-07-2010, 13:12
We can bounce around those kinds of topics all day though. :D
We sure could!


Not bad, aside from needing a really good proof-reading and spell-check... :)
Yeah, I know, I know...


I'd dispute having all the fields on there though (IMO, something physical is normally less likely to go wrong than something electronic, doesn't cost as much, consume energy or require a backup)
In the role I imagine Drop Pods to perform - mundane materials would disintegrate. There is no option other than 'warped physics' (or technobabble - which is the chaos version based on disinformation and works as counter intelligence :P)

As to reliability I would mix in some of my phased materials (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_7_AM__11_Phased.shtml), but even these would have a hard time resisting friction at such tremendous speeds. Seeing as 40K already as 'power canopies' that can keep out atmosphere (and back in the day (RT) was reliable enough to use of vehicles and ships instead of glass) is seems a small ask to adapt them to this new role.


And to be honest, things like the Apollo capsules were effectively drop pods - they just opened parachutes at altitude rather than firing retros just before landing :).
I don't even like the retros ;)


(And for your alternate pod types list, I did have an idea of a small Forward Observer pod, for the Planetstrike strategem ;)).
Cool, are you going to share?


Space Marines can't weight that much! How would they ride those wolves?
I don't think they ride normal wolves. A wolf that can carry a Space Marine, as I imagine Space Marines, is going to be one hell of a wolf! Or a Cyberwolf.


Philip, I'm having a good laugh at all the free advertising you get here. ;)

Kudos to you, sir. Your work is inspired and inspirational.
Thanks. It's been a while since I had a bit of free time to post. I used to be much worse than this (ask Kage).

Talk of the devil...


He's the same with all the people that have "strong interpretations" of the 40k universe. They (we) take every opportunity to tell people how cool it is (in their own mind if no-one elses!). :D
I like people with strong opinions who take the time to explain their point of view. I seek them out. It makes it much easier to design your own -verse (to coin one of your phrases) that is consistent with the background.


You're right, though, it is certain inspirational! I think that more fans should treat the 40k universe like Phil, though obviously in their own way.
I wish they would to, and post them on the net for all to read. I think what you did with the ASP is inspirational.

I was thinking of CELs the other day and all his sketchup work (I was playing about with sketchup), he created some wonderful models. I'm thinking of sketchuping up my STC universal enclosures (acts a crates, appliance housings etc.)

Philip

Sai-Lauren
22-07-2010, 13:47
In the role I imagine Drop Pods to perform - mundane materials would disintegrate. There is no option other than 'warped physics' (or technobabble - which is the chaos version based on disinformation and works as counter intelligence :P)

As to reliability I would mix in some of my phased materials, but even these would have a hard time resisting friction at such tremendous speeds. Seeing as 40K already as 'power canopies' that can keep out atmosphere (and back in the day (RT) was reliable enough to use of vehicles and ships instead of glass) is seems a small ask to adapt them to this new role.

I'm sure that if there's anything a planet colonising empire will have worked out, it's cheap and effective atmospheric re-entry materials. :)

Just say they've got a layer of "Thermium" (or similar name) ceramic/ceramic composites that are particularly resistant to heat - use theoretical advances in Materials rather than theoretical advances in electronics. :)

Either that, or their initial atmospheric entry is relatively slow and doesn't produce much heat, then the engine kicks in for maximum thrust once they're within the effective range of Interceptors and SAMs.

Basically, I prefer to keep it nice and simple and don't throw on any system that I don't need if I think it can be done another way.



Cool, are you going to share?

That was basically the idea - a small disposable pod with a narrow beam comms uplink that could be launched into enemy territory and transmit enemy troop movements, intercept comms transmissions and the like. Basically a stationary probot - working on the basis that Marine chapters have relatively little manpower, but potentially a lot of materiel, and it's a lot easier to throw out a number of pods than drop Scout teams - they can then be sent in to investigate anything that looks worthwhile, and either attack it on their own or call in the regular Marines.

I threw a few bits together, realised what I had wasn't going to fit in the size I was planning (about the size of a Terminator plus his base), messed around a bit more, switched onto something else, thought I'd come back to it and havn't touched it since - basically it ran like a normal modelling project. :D

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 16:20
Sounds like a Samuel L Jackson movie... :)

Get these ****** Marines outta my ****** tree house!


I'd work off the kinds of worlds they'd colonise (limits are what the initial colonists can stand) - maybe a max gravity of about 1.3g, able to withstand a magnitude 6 earthquake and a category 3 Hurricane without anything more significant than having to replaster a few walls, and sealed against hard-vac/non-breathable atmospheres to about 3x standard atmospheric pressure and temperatures of about 40-50 celcius maximum or about -20 to -30 at the minimum end.

I love technical debates like this. :D

Oh, and don't mention that first point too loud. Uwe Boll or Michael Bay might hear you.

Professor Grumbles
22-07-2010, 16:41
It seems like Brock Lesnar would fit this mold everybody is setting quite well.

Kage2020
22-07-2010, 19:24
Thanks. It's been a while since I had a bit of free time to post. I used to be much worse than this (ask Kage).
He's right. :D


I like people with strong opinions who take the time to explain their point of view.
Watch out, though, it gets you labelled as... well, I'll leave it at that. :D


I was thinking of CELs the other day and all his sketchup work (I was playing about with sketchup), he created some wonderful models. I'm thinking of sketchuping up my STC universal enclosures (acts a crates, appliance housings etc.)
Yeah, I started playing with that a lot back in the day. Now I'm playing around with 3dsMax. I suck at both. :D

As to Anargo... It will be back soon, more than likely on Dark Reign (as a way of re-inspiring interest, or at least potentially so). Probably with an interpretation of Marines for RPG in which I'll see about releasing some hidden artwork from Magelord. If only he had the time to actually finish it!

Kage

killerbot
23-07-2010, 09:25
nah everyone knows that marine have a weightlessness button on thier power armour. it makes them light enough for the ships to leave orbit with them on. duh :D

but ona more serious not. yeah you think astartes have it bad, think of the poor primarchs trying to get on a ship not designed for them personally lol.

Kage2020
23-07-2010, 11:55
It does make for some interesting "dirty tricks" to be included in ships of alien races, or even renegade human ships. You can "Marine-proof" your vessel just by reducing the size of your corridors so that it would be awkward, if not impossible, for the Marine to get by. The term "bottleneck" springs to mind.

Of course, then the Marine fan "bois" are going to want to include a phase field generator along with the suspensor fields so that, if the Marine wants, they can just float through walls along with their fairy-like weight. Maybe they could even switch them on during combat, flickering the field so that they vary from being phased to not-phased at just the right time for them to deliver blows or, even, just phase into existence with their sword through the gut of a particularly powerful opponent. Let's call 'em "Wraith-Marines." Sort of like the Eldar Wraithguard but without the suckiness because, well, they're Marines...

:shifty:

:D

Kage

killerbot
23-07-2010, 12:04
It does make for some interesting "dirty tricks" to be included in ships of alien races, or even renegade human ships. You can "Marine-proof" your vessel just by reducing the size of your corridors so that it would be awkward, if not impossible, for the Marine to get by. The term "bottleneck" springs to mind.

Of course, then the Marine fan "bois" are going to want to include a phase field generator along with the suspensor fields so that, if the Marine wants, they can just float through walls along with their fairy-like weight. Maybe they could even switch them on during combat, flickering the field so that they vary from being phased to not-phased at just the right time for them to deliver blows or, even, just phase into existence with their sword through the gut of a particularly powerful opponent. Let's call 'em "Wraith-Marines." Sort of like the Eldar Wraithguard but without the suckiness because, well, they're Marines...

:shifty:

:D

Kage


LOL! love it

Balgora
23-07-2010, 15:08
do marines really have to go onto many alien ships apart from space hulks and maybe hive ships?

Also the making of your ships smaller is a double edged sword, for tau it would mean things like suits being unable to fight inside ships and if you can only fit one guy in a corridor it becomes a stalemate.

I really can't think of a race that doesn't make widespread use of things larger or as large as a marine..dark eldar maybe? unless you're talking renegade humans maybe.

and with buildings, even my house here has plenty of space for a marine to stand everywhere but the doorways, and fancy sensors to tell you how many people are in the building, powefists/other weapons or just your bare hands to rip holes, imperial guard support to do the dangerous job of going room to room for you etc i think they can manage.

Kage2020
23-07-2010, 15:59
Do the inhabitants of starships really have to populate their defenses with dreadnoughts, heavy vehicles, etc.? Next we're going to have space to field titans to defend battleships. With that said, one would imagine that there are definitely going to be "highways" for ships, but not every corridor. Of course, the most important areas are likely going to be along these primary communications axes, so the idea of "bottlenecks" may or may not be appropriate, but still...

If you looked at the hairy back of a naked Marine--sorry, the perfectly sculpted, heavily muscled and definitely non-hairy back of a heroically proportioned Marine (with attendant aesthetically pleasing duelling scars)--would they have a maker's mark that said, "Powered by Awesome!"?

It's almost like it is some form of nerd heresy to suggest that Marines might have <gasp!> limitations. Further, that these might actually effect the Marine? Perhaps their augmented biologies might mean that they have dependencies on drugs? That without them their efficiency might drop? Or that those massive pauldrons, while great armour of utilised effectively, might mean a Marine cannot simultaneously be a puissant warrior and an armoured prima ballerino assoluta? Perhaps their huge size might present problems to sneakiness, or the "fact" that they weigh half a ton present some issues with the squad taking the non-industrial lift up to the Governor's penthouse?

"Come, Battle Brothers. Let us bring battle to the foul xenos called 'Leprachaun' and give thanks to our beloved and mighty Primarch that 2'-tall smatterings of evil have 20' tall ceilings and corridors that are 10' wide. Now we can field mighty Crusher Dreadnought and his awesomely powered field of greatness."

Sorry, couldn't resist the bad humour as a means of over-stating the point. :D

Don't get me wrong. I think that Marines are great. I like 'em, which is one of the reasons that (until my recent burnout) I was writing up a fan RPG supplement for them. On the other hand, I don't need my Marines to be a heroic cello player because, well, he's a Marine.

YMWLV.

Kage

Iuris
23-07-2010, 16:23
/hugs Kage2020

I always thought the first thing any pirate in 40k did was make sure his ship's corridors were narrower than Astartes shoulder pads :)

Balgora
23-07-2010, 17:09
Do the inhabitants of starships really have to populate their defenses with dreadnoughts, heavy vehicles, etc.? Next we're going to have space to field titans to defend battleships. With that said, one would imagine that there are definitely going to be "highways" for ships, but not every corridor. Of course, the most important areas are likely going to be along these primary communications axes, so the idea of "bottlenecks" may or may not be appropriate, but still...

Kage

I don't actually play marines so i like to think i don't have to follow the whole perfect warrior thing.

Anyway, the only people who use dreadnoughts are marines..so logically they'd make their own starships big enough for them.

Tau use a lot of suits for fighting and probably for a lot more things that arn't covered on the tabletop as well as for say being big enough to move equipment through and whatever. Also kroot are described as being 30% taller than an average guardsman isn't it? So if they wanted to transport any of those along with their krootox friends around and not wait around for the much more limited number of warspheres they'd have to think about that.

Tyranids and Orks are both often bigger than space marines and use space hulks a lot.

Chaos space marines are kinda obvious if they use ships at all.

Necrons seem very big and scary too.

So again, i think the only races that don't have the size issues are dark and regular brand eldar and possibly renegade imperial guard who don't build their ships to imperial standards. And well yeah there are going to be spaces on a ship where nobody fits, air vents and supply shafts and areas that are almost totally taken up with mechanical goodies :D

I really do think that every race's construction is going to compensate for being able to move people, equipment supplies and machinery through it safely. I think servitors and tons of other fluffy things match marines in size and weight :)

In a counter over-stating kinda way it feels similar to somebody my size or taller, 6 ft 2+ being told that it'd be more interesting if asian buildings wern't designed to compensate for the awesome bulk of myself and luggage!!:p

I'm all for marines being diabetic and having faulty kidneys and problems regulating their own body temperate without equipment, and going insane without regular doses of mood stabilising medication and also having to have most of their bones replaced once they reach the 100 years mark because the stress of being marines totally destroys their natural ones.
Or that after every single campaign they have to dedicate days just to regain normal brain chemistry brought on by the stress and excitement of battle and then weeks after that of purifying their spirits from succumbing to their urges.
Or that every suit of armor requires it's own specific team of engineers who are only able to perfectly repair that unique suit and would require extensive training in any other unique suit to be able to do more than generalised temporary fixes.

Limitations are great, the flaws keep you interested..but this seems like quite a silly flaw to have. If you want the floor to collapse while the marine is chasing the bad guy then say it's an old building or bombed.

But that's just my opinion, sorry if it ended up as a lecture or a rant! I bet some people could come up with some nice stories involving this kinda stuff but i just don't see it as something that needs to be labelled as a real problem!

But yeah, if the squats came back with vengeance i'd just blow their ships outta the sky, it's not like they have anything i want on their midgetmobiles anyway :D

Have a nice friday everybody!

cornonthecob
23-07-2010, 17:34
Perhaps their augmented biologies might mean that they have dependencies on drugs? That without them their efficiency might drop?

I'm pretty sure this has actually been stated, thats what their backpacks are for , supplying drugs , watching their medical signs and powering their armour.

Kage2020
23-07-2010, 20:16
I don't actually play marines so i like to think i don't have to follow the whole perfect warrior thing.
Jolly good.


Anyway, the only people who use dreadnoughts are marines..so logically they'd make their own starships big enough for them.
Well, Eldar use "Wraithguard," or if you work with the older material you've also got Spirit Warriors, Dreadnoughts, and War Walkers. On the other hand, I wouldn't say that the Eldar or the Marines are necessarily going to build their ships large enough on the happenstance that they might be boarded and need to send in a Dreadnought.

Of course, then you've got the problem of Terminators.

In essence what you're dealing with is a bit of this:


http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/6/20/633495988526210130-drive-me-closer.jpg

Again, though, please note that I mentioned primary axes of large(r) corridors. I'm merely allowing that "dirty tricks" like this are viable as an alternative to, say, Phil's "STC" argument.


I think servitors and tons of other fluffy things match marines in size and weight
Good point. Again, though, I'm talking about potentials and the idea that you don't have to make a Marine into a Mary Sue for them to be interesting.

Of course, if you want to do that then that's cool, too. Thus the 40k universe.


I'm all for marines being diabetic and having faulty kidneys and problems regulating their own body temperate without equipment, and going insane without regular doses of mood stabilising medication and also having to have most of their bones replaced once they reach the 100 years mark because the stress of being marines totally destroys their natural ones.
LOL. Way to overstate the position on that one. (Your bones replace themselves, more or less and with some caveats, about once every 20 years....))


Limitations are great, the flaws keep you interested..but this seems like quite a silly flaw to have. If you want the floor to collapse while the marine is chasing the bad guy then say it's an old building or bombed.
It is merely an awareness that Marines could have limitations. Silly? Perhaps. No more than anything else in the 40k universe. :D


But yeah, if the squats came back with vengeance i'd just blow their ships outta the sky, it's not like they have anything i want on their midgetmobiles anyway
Me too!


I'm pretty sure this has actually been stated, thats what their backpacks are for , supplying drugs , watching their medical signs and powering their armour.
In Mark VI "Beaky" armour, it's in the main suit, not the backpack. That's power generation and air supply. Given the purported "modular" nature of Marine power armour, one has to question how likely it is that it is going to vary too much across different marks but... Well, interpretation varies.

Kage

madd0ct0r
23-07-2010, 20:57
given the size of 40k ships, aren't huge corridors going to be neccesary just to ensure loading/unloading can be done in weeks instead of years?

Kage2020
23-07-2010, 21:29
Those might be the "primary corridors" that are larger. Where do they take you? Cargo hold. Does that dragon/dinosaur need to be taken to the bridge?

Kage

N0-1_H3r3
23-07-2010, 21:49
Those might be the "primary corridors" that are larger. Where do they take you? Cargo hold. Does that dragon/dinosaur need to be taken to the bridge?
Yes, by way of the taxidermist. How else is your bridge going to look complete without a massive stuffed Carnosaur stood behind the command pulpit, looming over the crew?

Kage2020
23-07-2010, 21:56
LMAO! :D

Classic.

Kage

UselessThing
23-07-2010, 21:58
I think people need to learn the art of the Heroic Disadvantage, or the flaw that isn't a flaw.


Smithers: What would each of you say is your worst quality?
Man 1: Well, I <am> a workaholic.
Man 2: I push myself too hard.
Homer: Well, it takes me a long time to learn anything,
I'm kind of a goof-off...
Smithers: Okay, that'll do.
Homer: ... a little stuff starts disappearing from the workplace...
Smithers: That's enough!

Son of Sanguinius
23-07-2010, 22:04
Yes, by way of the taxidermist. How else is your bridge going to look complete without a massive stuffed Carnosaur stood behind the command pulpit, looming over the crew?

I have no idea where you're from or where you live, but you get my nomination for some type of head of state position. :D

Kage2020
23-07-2010, 23:39
Well, I broke a rule and checked out the post, that was, for me, an entirely relevant comment UselessThing! Of course, devoid of a context it's yet another way of making "Powered by Awesome" Marines, which is kind of the thing that I was referring to in terms of Marine "apologeticists."

Kage

UselessThing
23-07-2010, 23:49
So what are the Eldars weaknesses? :-)

Son of Sanguinius
23-07-2010, 23:52
In terms of battlefield effectiveness? Physical fragilities of a human, limited population, and racial arrogance.

UselessThing
23-07-2010, 23:56
In terms of battlefield effectiveness? Physical fragilities of a human, limited population, and racial arrogance.

They are better than humans, and the other two are Heroic Disadvantages (being outnumbered just means you must be individually more awesome and acting like a cock and looking down on people never gets old).

I mean weaknesses - things that don't make them More Awesome.

Balgora
24-07-2010, 00:04
They are better than humans, and the other two are Heroic Disadvantages (being outnumbered just means you must be individually more awesome and acting like a cock and looking down on people never gets old).

I mean weaknesses - things that don't make them More Awesome.

I'm going to start referring to being outnumbered as 'tactical use of awesome'.

UselessThing
24-07-2010, 00:09
I'm going to start referring to being outnumbered as 'strategic awesome' from now on.

It is indeed mildly bizarre, but for a number of cultural and game balance reasons many online discussions come down to arguing over who gets to be the most outnumbered.

I mean, in a fair fight who is cooler - the one guy or the twenty guys he is fighting?

Balgora
24-07-2010, 00:14
had a post but decided to replace it with the fact that avatars are getting thrown about like rag dolls, there's your weakness :D

i could argue against the fair fight thing, but the point is that not having enough people to fight properly is in fluff a weakness.

UselessThing
24-07-2010, 00:25
I'm just saying, things like outnumbered but awesome, pining for the fjords and superior attiude are all things that make eldar fanboys like them more, and so don't count as actual flaws.

And thus we see the trick - to invent 'flaws' that actually make the subject MORE appealing.

Son of Sanguinius
24-07-2010, 00:30
I'm just saying, things like outnumbered but awesome, pining for the fjords and superior attiude are all things that make eldar fanboys like them more, and so don't count as actual flaws.

But doesn't that apply even more so to a Space Marine?

The Space Marines are an endangered species compared to the Eldar and they are completely convinced in their own invincibility. Both of which are colossal drawbacks on the battlefield.

Only difference being they pine for Sisters of Battle and Orks.

UselessThing
24-07-2010, 00:39
But doesn't that apply even more so to a Space Marine?

Yes - I'm arguing that it isn't surprising that Marine fanboys don't like it when you suggest real uncool weaknesses for their heros. Because the kind of flaws they want to hear about are the cool ones that actually make the object of their adoration more attractive.

Balgora
24-07-2010, 00:41
ah but the key thing is that almost any flaw can be used to appeal to an audience, if your main character is crippled or blind or insane or whatever, but makes up for it in some other way you go "wow he's awesome for still fighting even though he's got that big flaw". But at the end of the day it's still a massive flaw that he has to work around.

Being outnumbered is still as much of a flaw as any other, because you can turn any flaw into a positive aspect.

Son of Sanguinius
24-07-2010, 00:43
Yes - I'm arguing that it isn't surprising that Marine fanboys don't like it when you suggest real uncool weaknesses for their heros. Because the kind of flaws they want to hear about are the cool ones that actually make the object of their adoration more attractive.

Oh, I got ya. :)

However, I think we need to make this less specific. No need to start yet another flame war.

UselessThing
24-07-2010, 01:21
Well, I doubt getting stuck in tight spaces will ever be a cool flaw, so it is probably best to make sure Marine fights always take place in open areas where it never comes up.

Similarly, a Marines prey taking refuge in a hiding place to small for them to reach only becomes cool if the Marine can use their Superior Strength to tear the roof off the bolthole, exposing the cowering mortals within.

Kage2020
24-07-2010, 02:05
Oh bejeezus. That's what you get for clicking "View Post." Lesson learned. I don't think that I really have the strength to continue against that kind of... passion.

Have fun, people.

/Kage

Col. Tartleton
24-07-2010, 04:18
Hating to interrupt the off topic about Eldar weak points (If I said them I'd get banned for being intolerant of certain groups)...

Someone posted this MK6 Diagram, and I just wanted to point out how it's obviously not designed for a human to wear...

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/6/63/Mk6corvuscompositiom.JPG

There is no way a human in any stretch of the imagination would fit into that. It's designed at right angles on the joints. I now propose new armor be designed or we declare Astartes to be cyborg heads attached to android bodies.

I think we need someone to design a functional power armor...

Iuris
24-07-2010, 09:02
Do you know when Astartes armor design started to bother me?

When I started drawing it. You can't really make it work. You can make it look like it works, but you are very limited in the poses that the marine can stand in.

Also, it's painfully obvious that the official artists and sculptors treat the suit as the end product, not as something that a marine is actually wearing. Take a look at the shoulders. Take a look at the gloves. What they draw and sculpt are not power armored elite troops - it's a direct robot body.

Just take a look at a terminator suit and tell me exactly where the human's shoulder joint is, and how much it can move.

Balgora
24-07-2010, 09:40
this would be why people keep complaining that the ultramarine's movie chars are not 'correctly proportioned', because the artists have tried to make something that might actually fit properly.

UselessThing
24-07-2010, 11:08
I think we need someone to design a functional power armor...

Part of the problem is that if you design armour to fit around a normal human body it looks a lot less awesome than the standard art.

This is why I am interested in modifying the Marine to allow for a more awesome suit. Marines can have super wide shoulders and pelvises for a start.

Iuris
24-07-2010, 12:46
You'd wind up with SERIOUSLY disgusting marines, then...

Philip S
24-07-2010, 14:04
Yeah, I started playing with that a lot back in the day. Now I'm playing around with 3dsMax. I suck at both. :D
It gets easier...


As to Anargo... It will be back soon, more than likely on Dark Reign (as a way of re-inspiring interest, or at least potentially so). Probably with an interpretation of Marines for RPG in which I'll see about releasing some hidden artwork from Magelord. If only he had the time to actually finish it!
That's good to hear. Magelord is a brilliant artist, and I hope he gets to finish off what he is doing for you (I really liked those pictures you sent me, it would be great to see them up on a site).


It does make for some interesting "dirty tricks" to be included in ships of alien races, or even renegade human ships. You can "Marine-proof" your vessel just by reducing the size of your corridors so that it would be awkward, if not impossible, for the Marine to get by. The term "bottleneck" springs to mind.
Power fists, and as I see it: limited movement of starship modular units (hence the ship is not up to scratch and marines are not needed).


Of course, then the Marine fan "bois" are going to want to include a phase field generator along with the suspensor fields so that, if the Marine wants, they can just float through walls along with their fairy-like weight. Maybe they could even switch them on during combat, flickering the field so that they vary from being phased to not-phased at just the right time for them to deliver blows or, even, just phase into existence with their sword through the gut of a particularly powerful opponent. Let's call 'em "Wraith-Marines." Sort of like the Eldar Wraithguard but without the suckiness because, well, they're Marines...
Actually I always liked the idea that Eldar has phase field technology and appeared as 'ghosts'. The most a conventional weapon could do against them would be to stun them. The only problem would be game balance, and the fact most missions would only take a few Eldar.


"Come, Battle Brothers. Let us bring battle to the foul xenos called 'Leprachaun' and give thanks to our beloved and mighty Primarch that 2'-tall smatterings of evil have 20' tall ceilings and corridors that are 10' wide. Now we can field mighty Crusher Dreadnought and his awesomely powered field of greatness."

Sorry, couldn't resist the bad humour as a means of over-stating the point. :D
It does illustrate a point. I see marines as fulfilling a very specific role and they just wouldn't do this. It's not their thing.

Being silly I'd say roll in some gas, or some high pressure flamer units attached to type of jet engine...


Do you know when Astartes armor design started to bother me?

When I started drawing it. You can't really make it work. You can make it look like it works, but you are very limited in the poses that the marine can stand in.
Me too.


Also, it's painfully obvious that the official artists and sculptors treat the suit as the end product, not as something that a marine is actually wearing. Take a look at the shoulders. Take a look at the gloves. What they draw and sculpt are not power armored elite troops - it's a direct robot body.
Not all of us ;)

I designed a 3D model (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K__16_3D.shtml#warrior-coven) of the marine, with the shoulder 'floating' on a frame attached (and it could only work is powered).

Some parts do need redoing to make it work though, but it's not as bad as it seems.


Just take a look at a terminator suit and tell me exactly where the human's shoulder joint is, and how much it can move.
I thought of designing the terminator armour as an overlay to the standard marine armour superstructure, a sort of bolt on augmenting frame with added armour.

I think the terminator armour can be made to work and retain it's terminator looks, though some areas need a lot of work (hips) and others need a tweak (the shoulders should be more like the Grey Knight version).

Philip

Col. Tartleton
24-07-2010, 17:03
this would be why people keep complaining that the ultramarine's movie chars are not 'correctly proportioned', because the artists have tried to make something that might actually fit properly.

Which is funny to me since I think those armor interpretations look a lot better. Not just in proportions which are still pushing it as to whether a humanoid shape would fit in them, but in aesthetics as well. It's not pretty but it almost looks like it might work. They really got the bling to blue ratio on the marines... The fact the marines are old and ugly is good too. Every marine's probably had his helmet ripped off before (with most of his face) so they shouldn't be pretty marines.


Part of the problem is that if you design armour to fit around a normal human body it looks a lot less awesome than the standard art.

This is why I am interested in modifying the Marine to allow for a more awesome suit. Marines can have super wide shoulders and pelvises for a start.

No, what they should do is figure out what a marine looks like out of armor that looks cool then design a cool armor over that, not make a man with the massive torso of a bull and a normal sized head. But that's how they are now so here we stand. They can be broad but not enough to fit the armor as is. Marines should be halfway between looking really agile and lithe and massive and clunky. That way a space wolf can leap onto your tank and pull off the turret or a deathguard can march up to you laughing as your bullets ricochet off him and put a round in your brow.

Balgora
24-07-2010, 17:26
Which is funny to me since I think those armor interpretations look a lot better. Not just in proportions which are still pushing it as to whether a humanoid shape would fit in them, but in aesthetics as well. It's not pretty but it almost looks like it might work. They really got the bling to blue ratio on the marines... The fact the marines are old and ugly is good too. Every marine's probably had his helmet ripped off before (with most of his face) so they shouldn't be pretty marines.



I agree, because they've tried to make something that flows with realistic movement the shoulder pads sit lower and look nicer. In some of the things the legs look crazy long but i like it too, in fact the only thing i dislike is i think how thin his neck looks and the fact that you can't see any of his shoulders, i think it hints too much that the armor was designed to be awesome and not actually have anybody sit inside it.
The more they keep their helmets on during the film the better, maybe even do some cool shots of inside the helmet while they're wearing it like some other things do. Simply to limit the amount of time you sit going "hmm he shouldn't fit properly in that suit"

Hellebore
25-07-2010, 02:42
I've always thought of terminator armour as a modular attachment upgrade for power armour that comes with a larger reactor built into it rather than in a backpack.

If you look at the arms and legs, it looks like an exo frame was put around power armour and then additional armour plating attached to that. The shins specifically.

Thus if you can get the power armour right you get terminator armour right by default.

As for modifying marines, the biggest modification would have to be in the hips. A man's legs are far closer to each other than a woman's and thus putting power armour on the insides of the thighs would result in them waddling around because they couldn't bring their legs together.

However, if you given them wider, feminine pelvises, quite apart from the machismo outrage from fanbois it would actually make them far less stable. With legs further apart and thus angled inwards women have worse central balance than men. A marine would be an even greater exaggeration of that.

Then of course there is the whole muscleman thing which you most certainly COULDN'T do if you want them in power armour. The muscles will bind their limbs and bulk them out making it even harder to articulate the armour around them. Lean 300 physiques yes, body builders no.

Hellebore

UselessThing
25-07-2010, 03:09
and thus putting power armour on the insides of the thighs would result in them waddling around because they couldn't bring their legs together.

Well, if you look at current exoskeleton designs they all put the working parts on the outside of the limb for just this reason. Assuming Marine battle plate does the same, we only need actual armour plate between the legs.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/hulc/HULCVideo2.html

http://0.tqn.com/d/inventors/1/G/J/x/exoskeleton2.jpg

I'm afraid the musclemen are cool, so must stay. :0)

Hellebore
25-07-2010, 03:38
Well then you're a hypocrite. You said you wanted to modify the marine physically to allow for him to wear the armour, but in order to do that you have to prevent him having biceps that will stop his armour moving with his arm. So don't pretend you want to do something logically if you obviously don't.

And I was only talking about the armour plating. If that plating is 1cm thick, that's 2cm of solid metal between the thighs. You don't need pistons and servos in there to make the marine bind his own legs up when grinding the plates against themselves.

Hellebore

Sai-Lauren
26-07-2010, 08:22
The insides of the legs are less likely to get hit by weapons, so they could easily have thinner armour there to facilitate movement and reduce a little of the weight.

madd0ct0r
26-07-2010, 17:55
Roight boss, you know we waz having trouble with dem beakies?
Well I've got a ded kunnin invention - Da Krotch Cutta!

Alternitvely, the armour crotch for the marines could start a good few cm below the real one, avoiding all lines converging to a point.

Just wandered about the room with a large starbucks mug stuck between me thighs, and apart from a slight waddle to my stride it seemed ok.

Sai-Lauren
27-07-2010, 08:02
Roight boss, you know we waz having trouble with dem beakies?
Well I've got a ded kunnin invention - Da Krotch Cutta!

Considering the hip joint is going to be less well armoured, and the femoral artery runs close to the skin under the inside of the thigh, that's going to be a prime target anyway.

Of course, trying to hit something that size, with a 7' tall psychopath both defending it and trying to rip your head off at the same time, is a completely different thing. :D

Tak
27-07-2010, 16:48
I'm sure that it says in Flesh And Iron that the helmet of a Chaos Space Marine weighs in at 20kg.

I'm also quite sure too that it mentions Typhus' weight in Cadian Blood which says (I could be wrong on this if Iv'e rememberd wrong) that he weighs two tons.

I don't think that there is a human man alive that could ever be even slightly compared to size af an Astartes. They are just too massive. I picture them with absolutely enormous muscles with extra ones in places that we didn't even think existed. I also imagine that there faces are like that guy out of Sin City, Marvin is it? He had a REALLY square jaw and almost cartoony gigantism around the face.

Kage2020
27-07-2010, 16:50
I'm sure that it says in Flesh And Iron that the helmet of a Chaos Space Marine weighs in at 20kg.
Yeah, but most of that weight is in the over-sized horns and spikes. :shifty:

:D

Kage

massey
27-07-2010, 16:59
I'm sure that it says in Flesh And Iron that the helmet of a Chaos Space Marine weighs in at 20kg.

I'm also quite sure too that it mentions Typhus' weight in Cadian Blood which says (I could be wrong on this if Iv'e rememberd wrong) that he weighs two tons.

I don't think that there is a human man alive that could ever be even slightly compared to size af an Astartes. They are just too massive. I picture them with absolutely enormous muscles with extra ones in places that we didn't even think existed. I also imagine that there faces are like that guy out of Sin City, Marvin is it? He had a REALLY square jaw and almost cartoony gigantism around the face.

And I would absolutely disagree with you. And so would Jes Goodwin, by all accounts.

huntho08
27-07-2010, 21:02
its the future and its not real why does it mater

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 21:11
It matters as much as punctuation.

And this is the background section. The whole purpose is for us to ask questions, propose ideas, and discuss.

Karl MkVI
27-07-2010, 21:36
It matters as much as punctuation.

Haha! So deadpan. :D


And this is the background section. The whole purpose is for us to ask questions, propose ideas, and discuss.

True, but he does have a point, and one I partially agree with; marines clearly aren't designed to make a lot of sense. Much like the Warp, the Primarchs, the Necrons... the whole of 40K, basically!! :)

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 21:38
Oh I agree there must be a degree of suspension of disbelief, but comments like that are completely unnecessary. He's in the background section saying we shouldn't be discussing background, in my opinion. And that post was painful to read.

Kage2020
27-07-2010, 22:51
Yeah, but the fact that they don't make sense doesn't mean that they cannot be made to make sense... Well, sorta. :shifty: While I tend not agree with most of the materials that he produces with regards to the Marines, Phil Sibbering's stuff goes to show that they can be made to made sense (and even without recourse to phased materials!). :D

Kage

Sai-Lauren
28-07-2010, 07:52
Yeah, but the fact that they don't make sense doesn't mean that they cannot be made to make sense... Well, sorta. While I tend not agree with most of the materials that he produces with regards to the Marines, Phil Sibbering's stuff goes to show that they can be made to made sense (and even without recourse to phased materials!).

And IMO, if the individual parts of the background don't make sense, then the whole universe falls apart.

That happens, and frankly, all we're left with is a very poor gaming system.

Philip S
28-07-2010, 12:26
While I tend not agree with most of the materials that he produces with regards to the Marines, Phil Sibbering's stuff goes to show that they can be made to made sense (and even without recourse to phased materials!). :D
I only use phased materials when I have to! (A wizard did it :p) I know that's a bit lame but some stuff in sci-fi is so 'magical' a wizard has to intervene (even if that wizard is purporting to be a scientist at the time - tricky buggers those wizards).


And IMO, if the individual parts of the background don't make sense, then the whole universe falls apart.
It falls apart if we pick it apart. Like any sci-fi, or fantasy, if is based on imagination and selectively ignoring reality. It retains its power through our collective will. It makes sense if we find a way for it to make sense to us.

I think GW, or more specifically the creatives who invent it, are fully aware that it's easy to pick apart specifics, and that some areas need to be left well alone else they become a weakness, and even a focus of lore-yers. By leaving it open it can be all things to all fans. We all fill in the gaps with what we know, and twist 40K to our -verse.

It is quite noticeable the number of -verses (Philverse, Kageverse, Sai-Laurenverse etc.) that 40K inspires, and I believe this is through intent. GW what you to create a -verse, they want you to invest in 40K with your imagination, to come up with new ideas. They want to draw their creatives from their fanbase.

I see 40K as being a very open background. Even the 'canon (http://philipsibbering.com/blog/articles/canon/)' version is like hundreds of alternate realities all laid on top of each other. The fans add many more layers (and seem just as coherent and valid). Even the editions are layers. The only common theme is the spirit of 40K that runs through it all (and codifying the 'spirit' is a lot harder than writing the 'lore' - ask a Lawyer).

My whole aim of writing up my site was to show that 40K can make sense if you want it to.

A little imagination goes a long way and much of the 40K background is left intentionally open (like the details of technology) that you can explain it with almost anything. Even my radical ideas on technology (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_7_AM_1_index.shtml), and the hideously advanced tech I shoehorn into my version of 40K, is fully compatible.

GW would never actually use what I have written, even if it does make a certain kind of twisted sense, as it is specifics on an area that is not of, or not in, the interests of the background. It would detract from the focus of the background, and more importantly rob others of their -verse.

As a note: I have one version of marines on my site that reinforces the image of 40K 'as is', I have another version which is far more Kageverse like (but probably even more mundane than Kageverse) where the marines are simply prressganged gangers of human size, conditioned and put into powerful suits of power armour. All the strength is from the power armour, and those wearing it are no more different than today's special forces. The armour is more like Starcraft in concept, but still looking 40K.

This version fits with 40K too in some respects (i.e. Rogue Trader era marines which I think are fantastic), and perhaps the spirit of 40K. I can understand why GW moved away from the original type of marine, as writing stories about psychos being seen as heroes is probably going a little too far (and Mothers will complain!)

Whoever this part of 40K, this layer, still lives on in the older fans (like myself) who grew up with 40K and we miss this part. I want to work it back in, and so: much of modern marine depictions are 'from the point of view of those in 40K' and are propaganda, or an idealised view of the one telling the story.

I even mess about with the whole concept of the marine mind (http://philipsibbering.com/blog/2008/02/marine-mind/) to reconcile the two layers. To the marines can be both versions at the same time, both versions feel like 40K to me, they both fit in with the spirit, but they are very different in isolation - yet both inform the other.

It's not one or the other, and at other times I indulge in Anargo, and get swept up in other -verses. To me they all feel like 40K, yet if you were to look at each one, they are all very different, yet to me they are the same universe.

I suppose if we can have wanton misrepresentation in reality we can have it in 40K!

After all America and the UK won the second world war, and all our films and stories play up that part we played. However the truth is that Soviet Union broke the back of the Nazi forces, and had the biggest tank battle ever (and a bit of help from Mother Nature). The USA and UK lost around a million fighting men combined, the Soviet Union around 9 million fighting men (and women). It's true the allies won the war, but the Soviet Union carried one hell of a burden.

That's not to say we didn't do our bit, the UK is tiny, and the soviet union is massive, what I'm saying is that I often get the impression we would have won without the soviets and that is a bit of a stretch.

So if our imagination is as flexible about reality with cold hard facts, and we still love the films, I think we can be flexible with 40K.

I see 40K as a setting, like the WWII, there are cold hard facts deep down but finding them requires digging, and often it's down to interpretation. You know they are there, they have to be, but getting to them can be tough - if not impossible at times (this is where my -verse explanations come into play). All the battles on the table top are scenarios played out, and they can end up a million different ways, the stories are accounts of scenarios that played out by may and may not be 100% accurate, or even if it happened at all (I once caught a fish...).

A made up story set in WWII is still a WWII story -even one that's blatantly false (Inglorious Bastards?), is still a WWII story. It's set in WWII and has common themes and concepts. The same for 40K. Some stories may be false, 'made up', but the core of 40K remains, it all has to come back to, and remain compatible with, 40K.

The spirit of the lore, not the letter...

Philip

UselessThing
28-07-2010, 12:33
And IMO, if the individual parts of the background don't make sense, then the whole universe falls apart.

I'm with M. John Harrison:-


The great modern fantasies were written out of religious, philosophical and psychological landscapes. They were sermons. They were metaphors. They were rhetoric. They were books, which means that the one thing they actually weren’t was countries with people in them.

The commercial fantasy that has replaced them is often based on a mistaken attempt to literalise someone else’s metaphor, or realise someone else’s rhetorical imagery. For instance, the moment you begin to ask (or rather to answer) questions like, “Yes, but what did Sauron look like?”; or, “Just how might an Orc regiment organise itself?”; the moment you concern yourself with the economic geography of pseudo-feudal societies, with the real way to use swords, with the politics of courts, you have diluted the poetic power of Tolkien’s images. You have brought them under control. You have tamed, colonised and put your own cultural mark on them.

Literalisation is important to both writers and readers of commercial fantasy. The apparent depth of the great fantasy inscapes—their appearance of being a whole world–is exhilarating: but that very depth creates anxiety. The revisionist wants to learn to operate in the inscape: this relieves anxiety and reasserts a sense of control over “Tolkien’s World.”

Given this, another trajectory (reflecting, of course, another invitation to consume) immediately presents itself: the relationship between fantasy and games—medieval re-enactment societies, role-play, and computer games. Games are centred on control. “Re-enactment” is essentially revision, which is essentially reassertion of control, or domestication. (The “defusing sequels” produced by Hollywood have the same effect: as in Aliens, in which the original insuperable threat is diminished, the paranoid inscape colonised. Life with the alien is difficult, but—thanks to our nukes and our angry motherhood no longer so impossible as it seemed.)

“What would it be really like to live in the world of…?” is an inappropriate question, a category error. You understand this immediately you ask it of the inscape of, say, Samuel Beckett or Wyndham Lewis. I didn’t want it asked (and I certainly didn’t want it answered) of Viriconium, so I made that world increasingly shifting and complex. You can not learn its rules. More importantly, Viriconium is never the same place twice. That is because—like Middle-Earth—it is not a place. It is an attempt to animate the bill of goods on offer. Those goods, as in Tolkien or Moorcock, Disney or Kafka, Le Guin or Wolfe, are ideological. “Viriconium” is a theory about the power-structures culture is designed to hide; an allegory of language, how it can only fail; the statement of a philosophical (not to say ethological) despair. At the same time it is an unashamed postmodern fiction of the heart, out of which all the values we yearn for most have been swept precisely so that we will try to put them back again (and, in that attempt, look at them afresh).

Like all books, Viriconium is just some words. There is no place, no society, no dependable furniture to “make real.” You can’t read it for that stuff, so you have to read it for everything else. And if its landscapes can’t be mapped, its threat of infinite depth (or at least infinite recessiveness) can’t be defused but must be accepted on its own terms, as a guarantee of actual adventure. Like the characters, the reader goes in without a clue. No character ever “survives” Viriconium: the best they can hope for after they have been sucked in is to be spat out whole (if changed). Recognise this procedure? It’s called life. This is one of Viriconium’s many jigsawed messages to the reader. You can’t hope to control things. Learn to love the vertigo of experience instead.

Any child can see that the map is not the ground. You cannot make a “reliable” map. A map, like a scientific theory, or consciousness itself, is no more than a dream of control. The conscious mind operates at forty or fifty bits a second, and disorder is infinitely deep. Better admit that. Better lie back and enjoy it—especially since, without the processes implied by it, no one could write (or read) books anyway. Writing is a con. Viriconium manipulates map-to-ground expectations to imply a depth that isn’t there. Tolkien does the same thing. Or do you think that Tolkien somehow manages to unload an actual landscape into your living room? If you believe that, get treatment.

Balgora
28-07-2010, 12:55
Warhammer is not anything like a book though, a book like those written by Tolkein is a finished product, and only able to deal with things that are immediately part of the story because there's only one central storyline, so there are large gaps because this or that fact isn't relevant to that type of story.

Because games workshop uses so many writers across different time periods it is not one unified whole concept to go with one author's ideas. Since there is so much disagreement and contradiction between the writers themselves it is much easier to add in your own opinions and speculation on details some might consider irrelevant.

There are many fewer gaps in the world because of this 'work in progress' evolving approach. But even so if enough people say "hey, i wonder how a marine actually would fit inside his armour and deal with his own weight" it is possible for a writer to see that and feel inspired to answer the question even though some fans are always going to prefer their speculation.

Normal works of fantasy are static and unchanging, 40k is not..it's possible to help it evolve by bringing those questions to the notice of people or by taking the 'wait and see' approach and seeing if what you're interested in pops up in passing in the next book.

It's nicer to think of talking about background that can be changed or updated or expanded upon as being constructive in your thoughts and criticisms and not destructive towards the world the single author was trying to put across.

I kinda see Mr Harrises' approach as "well you're never going to be able to prove how the engine works, so don't drive the car, you'll chip the paint if you do".

Philip S
28-07-2010, 13:07
I'm with M. John Harrison:-
I kinda agree with the sentiment, but I do think that explanation at times can add to the fear rather than gaining control.

In Philverse I incorporated the warp into Physics, warped physics (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_7_AM_9_Physcis.shtml), and at first this seems to give control and understanding. It makes it easy to understand and answers some basic questions, but more importantly is starts to open up some really big questions, question that can not be answered in reality and that starts to unsettle - and I hope it is more unsettling as it starts to tap into doubts about reality. Soon the idea of control starts to diminish. The more creative and imaginative you are the worse it is!

The same holds true for other concepts like the chaos gods which I class as personifications much like the Grim Reaper is death. The concept of Khorne is as close to the chaos power as the Grim Reaper is to death. It a way if explains what a chaos god is, but as the same time undermines it. You still use the Grim Reaper, Khorne, but in the back of your mind you know that Khorne does not exist as you imagine it. Khorne is a mere placeholder, an image we can latch onto for our organisational purposes, but it's not true.

I think a good explanation actually makes the unsettling feeling worse. On the old BL forums many fans said my explanations made 40K 'real' and at the same time far more frightening. The explanation made the fantasy more intense as I did not want to 'explain away' more 'explain an let people into my mind space'.

The hardest part is to explain away a fantasy, fortunately reality gives us a whole load of uncertainties and if we can sync doubts about reality with the same doubts in the fantasy it kinda messes with your head.

I don't see the problem in explaining fantasy - but there again I see explanation as an opportunity to go even more mental and plunge the poor reading into a dark hole and turn the lights out.

I suppose that's why I don't like technobabble that misrepresents science - it's too easy to discount, people are too sophisticated in this day and age, but the warp? Now there the personification of the imagination, of the creative power of god, of primordial chaos, waiting to be let in under the radar and inserted into the setting like it should have always been there and people accepting it. Once in there the game can begin.

Kinda like a logic Trojan. It fundamentally messes with everything, but it acceptable because it's a fantasy. All that needs to be done is overlay this fantasy (as I mentioned earlier) onto oddities in reality, and things become interesting (like quantum mechanics is the beginning of warped physics, that the unpredictable nature of electrons etc is down to our perception, of the underlying warp, that matter is not as solid as we think it is, that the warp is closer than we imagine).

It doesn't always work, but when it inspires an idea it can be a lot of fun to interact with other fans.

Getting back to marines, it's much the same - explain them but let the explanation lead to deeper aspects.

I see the difficult questions of 'why?' as a hook to drag that fish to land and bash it's head in.

Philip

Kage2020
28-07-2010, 13:25
I kinda agree with the sentiment...
I do not.


Only men's minds could ever have unmapped
Into abstraction, such a territory.

They are not mutually exclusive, and contextualisation is a powerful tool.

Kage

Philip S
28-07-2010, 13:32
I do not.
LOL.

Think of it kinda like the Bible.

Philip

Kage2020
28-07-2010, 14:10
I can understand the premise, Phil, I just don't agree with it in the context of the discussion. Applying the kind of "high metaphor" concepts to the 40k universe is, I feel, just iron pyrite. A platypus is just a platypus, not a metaphor for creationism.

Hmmn... Is it just me or do the boards work on the tacit assumption that just because you don't agree with someone that you must not understand them?

Kage

Sai-Lauren
28-07-2010, 14:43
It falls apart if we pick it apart. Like any sci-fi, or fantasy, if is based on imagination and selectively ignoring reality. It retains its power through our collective will. It makes sense if we find a way for it to make sense to us.

Depends on how difficult it is to pick it apart - take the Buffy-verse for instance. In the early years, people probably were asking why the authorities didn't do anything, then later we got the Mayor of Sunnydale and eventually the US Government via The Inititive effectively supressing it for their own ends. Joss Whedon managed to retcon out a lot of people's objections quite simply.

Even when there is "magic" involved, it's usually done so that it makes sense (Buffy's healing abilities for example), or there's a price to pay at some point, usually much later, with a loanshark-level interest rate.

Or for Star Wars - anyone's free to write what they want, but to go into print, it has to go through approval from Lucasarts. Thus, they keep control of the universe, and it doesn't go off into places it shouldn't.

For GW, the "there is only war" line might be good enough as an advertising tag line for getting 14 year olds starting to play, but a more detailed underlying background with civilians, trade, economics and so on would provide more things to fight over than a non-descript piece of turf. Which is a better game - a bunch of guard in a defensive position against Ork speed freaks, or the remnants of Cobra company of the Cadian 19th holding the line in a desperate attempt to allow civilians to be evacuated before the advance elements of Warlord Rumtiddlypum clan can capture them?



It is quite noticeable the number of -verses (Philverse, Kageverse, Sai-Laurenverse etc.) that 40K inspires, and I believe this is through intent. GW what you to create a -verse, they want you to invest in 40K with your imagination, to come up with new ideas. They want to draw their creatives from their fanbase.

Unfortunatly, when they do, that person takes the core universe towards their particular version, and anyone whose vision differs from that tends to get a little fed up.

You would move it towards Philverse, and I know I would take it my way - how badly we'd remould it in our own images and who we'd lose along the way is the biggest issue ;).



My whole aim of writing up my site was to show that 40K can make sense if you want it to.

Depends on how much handwavium you're willing to use. :D

For example, does Strength x mean you can lift 1000 lbs, or 300 lbs? If you don't actually need them to be able to lift 1000 lbs, then either way, so long as you maintain consistency within the stats and don't have something with Strength x/2 lifting 3 times what something with Strength x can, then we can be more reasonable, go for the lower, and make it easier to achieve. Which also means that those things that can lift 1000lbs are even more impressive.

And then you can save the handwavium for the places it's really needed, rather than using it everywhere (I'm reminded of a Star Trek anecdote - Mike Okuda was rung up by someone asking how the Heisenberg compensators in the Transporters worked. He said very nicely thank you :)).

Kage2020
28-07-2010, 15:35
...Mike Okuda was rung up...
How much did he cost? :shifty:

:D

Sorry, didn't have anything to contribute to a post that I largely, if not entirely, agreed with. :D

Kage

Philip S
28-07-2010, 15:59
Hmmn... Is it just me or do the boards work on the tacit assumption that just because you don't agree with someone that you must not understand them?
I didn't think you didn't understand, I was putting across the aspect I agree with as there was a lot in that quote and I wanted to get across my interpretation and the bit I agree with.

The Bible is true to many, but it's easy to ask awkward questions about it, and the story falls apart (if you wish it to). The same holds for scientific theories taken on faith, like the big band or M-theory. It's true to many but it's easy to ask awkward questions, and it falls apart just as easily (if you want it to).

Obviously real science says 'I don't know', but in our imagination, the various paths forward, are often faith based.

Same for 40K, it works if you want it to. I do not think it is that much of a 'high metaphor' it's all down to our imagination and how we explain and visualise the universe about us.


but a more detailed underlying background with civilians, trade, economics and so on would provide more things to fight over than a non-descript piece of turf. Which is a better game - a bunch of guard in a defensive position against Ork speed freaks, or the remnants of Cobra company of the Cadian 19th holding the line in a desperate attempt to allow civilians to be evacuated before the advance elements of Warlord Rumtiddlypum clan can capture them?
I think both work, the more involved and complex reasons would tend to grab the older player (some younger ones may like it too). When young the violent and fighting is the dream, when old the conflict is in the mind and much grander in scope. It can adapt as the person ages - or rather I think the fans can adapt it as they age.


Unfortunatly, when they do, that person takes the core universe towards their particular version, and anyone whose vision differs from that tends to get a little fed up.
That is true, but it's not always the case ;)

I guess it all depends on how you look at it: if 40K is to be set in stone then fans start to argue about 'what is right' and try to come to a consensus (which never comes) whereas if they see it as a sandbox to try out hypotheticals it gets a little looser and fans 'steal' ideas from each other to make their own -verse. It becomes a lot more cooperative.

I get the impression that younger players like the 'set it in stone' attitude whereas the older players tend towards making a -verse. It's only a impression as some young players jump in to the -verse concept and some older players like everything set in stone.


You would move it towards Philverse, and I know I would take it my way - how badly we'd remould it in our own images and who we'd lose along the way is the biggest issue ;).
That's the beauty of it. It all things to all fans. Mine works, yours works, but if mine or your -verse became canon it would really mess with the other. As it is 40K works for all of us because GW is not doing what we do. In other words the fans can play and GW is not trying to teach a massive amount of lore, more a lot of ideas which we can reference once in the spirit of it all.


Depends on how much handwavium you're willing to use. :D
Only when something is impossible :p


For example, does Strength x mean you can lift 1000 lbs, or 300 lbs? If you don't actually need them to be able to lift 1000 lbs, then either way, so long as you maintain consistency within the stats and don't have something with Strength x/2 lifting 3 times what something with Strength x can, then we can be more reasonable, go for the lower, and make it easier to achieve. Which also means that those things that can lift 1000lbs are even more impressive.
Philverse is pretty internally consistent. All the concepts link together. Even the warped physics links in and is consistent pseudo-science.

It is not as flexible as GW's background if you use it as rules to abide by, but I like to think GW background is a layer above Philverse, and all GW's stuff works with it (in my mind). Using the WWII analogy from earlier I see Philverse as the absolute truth of 40K (for my satisfaction), in the same way there was the actual events of WWII as they unfolded in reality, but GW and the stories as much like the stories about WWII in film and novels etc.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story...


And then you can save the handwavium for the places it's really needed, rather than using it everywhere (I'm reminded of a Star Trek anecdote - Mike Okuda was rung up by someone asking how the Heisenberg compensators in the Transporters worked. He said very nicely thank you :)).
I remember that too (a variant), and puts technobabble in it's proper place: magic.

I agree with your sentiments, and tend towards making designs and devices out of mundane materials and near future technologies, moving away from magic. I save magic for the impossible stuff, like warp drives, anti-grav, etc.

I like explaining things without resorting to magic as it's more fun, and while the warped-physics makes sense, I prefer designing something as if it could be made. Right now I messing about with 'STC universal enclosures' based on ISO standard Intermodal containers (in Philverse ISO and open source IP becomes the STC). I'll use it as a crate, modular device case, and even a hab-unit component (I'm still getting to grips with sketchup). I'm designing a system of STC logistics, that makes sense (dragging in many real world influences) and I hope interesting.

I'm doing this so I can have 7'6" marines stomping about and tie these environments into their MO. The system can be used without the 7'6" marines and rescaled if needs be, it is stand alone, and I'll probably use it in other non-40K concepts.

Philip

massey
28-07-2010, 16:03
I can't even make up my own mind on how I want 40K to work. Sometimes I want super-realistic, sometimes I want high fantasy. The Imperial Armor books take the realistic approach. There are huge amounts of men and materials in war. Vast armies have huge logistical trails following them, supplying them. It feels like gritty, hard war. Then you'll open a codex and it reads like an episode of He-Man (which is okay, I like He-Man). Some of their technology is no more explained than how the lions form together in Voltron ("Why waste all that engineering space with transforming lions that operate independently? Why not just make one big robot to begin with?" "Because that's not how it works!!!").

UselessThing
28-07-2010, 17:44
Applying the kind of "high metaphor" concepts to the 40k universe is, I feel, just iron pyrite.

I dunno - 'In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war' is pretty rhetorical, and as soon as you try to expand 40k from a vehicle for fantasy vietnam in space to something more rounded you are guilty of trying to literalise someone elses metaphor.

Hellebore
29-07-2010, 02:41
That statement of metaphor etc appears as nothing more than art critic-ese ie a load of tosh.

It makes one very basic flawed assumption - that the subject IS a metaphor.

That's just like art critics describing the 'presence of spring' in a piece of art, or childhood memories or whatever.

I put very little stock in such subjective assumption making artsiness. Having been on the receiving end for my own work it very rarely matches the original point of the subject matter.

Hellebore

Sai-Lauren
29-07-2010, 08:33
Hellebore - I think most art critics come up with that level of utter codswallop because they're frightened if they don't, everyone will realise that anyone can appreciate and commentate on art, and thus they'll all have to go out and get proper jobs. :)

Philip - IMO, the "magic" element should only really apply in universe and from certain perspectives. For the average person, a warp engine can be magic, it just happens.

For the AM priest that ordered it's construction, and from our outside viewpoint though, it needs to have certain rules - is a "warp engine" actually a connected set of systems throughout the ship, or a single element? Does it open a hole between the real universe and the warp that the vessel flies through (B5 jump tech), or does it affect the matter of the ship (Farscape starburst), or quantum tunnel it straight across with no perceptible transition between reality and the warp?

Is transition fast or slow?

How long do the engines need to cool down or recharge capacitors before they can translate back again?

Does it require that much power that a vessel can't jump with shields up?

Can vessels lurk close to jump points to attack vessels as they emerge, or do they need to lurk further away, thus giving vessels time to bring up shields after transition?

Philip S
29-07-2010, 10:03
Going a little off topic for a bit;


Philip - IMO, the "magic" element should only really apply in universe and from certain perspectives. For the average person, a warp engine can be magic, it just happens.

For the AM priest that ordered it's construction, and from our outside viewpoint though, it needs to have certain rules - is a "warp engine" actually a connected set of systems throughout the ship, or a single element? Does it open a hole between the real universe and the warp that the vessel flies through (B5 jump tech), or does it affect the matter of the ship (Farscape starburst), or quantum tunnel it straight across with no perceptible transition between reality and the warp?

Is transition fast or slow?

How long do the engines need to cool down or recharge capacitors before they can translate back again?

Does it require that much power that a vessel can't jump with shields up?

Can vessels lurk close to jump points to attack vessels as they emerge, or do they need to lurk further away, thus giving vessels time to bring up shields after transition?
I working that out all these answers I think you need a conceptual model of a warp drive to work from, along with some theories about the warp and a working model of the warp - I created the Philverse version of a Warp Drive (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_7_AM__13_Warp_Drive.shtml) which builds upon my ideas on warped physics and field technologies. Once all the elements are in place, and explained, it would not be hard to add values to everything if you wished.

Once you have your model you can answer the questions. Using a Philverse warp drive you get;


is a "warp engine" actually a connected set of systems throughout the ship, or a single element?
A central field emitter array at the heart of the ship powered by some massive plasma engines.


Does it open a hole between the real universe and the warp that the vessel flies through (B5 jump tech), or does it affect the matter of the ship (Farscape starburst), or quantum tunnel it straight across with no perceptible transition between reality and the warp?
A bit like B5, but inside it's own reality bubble. Being inside a reality pocket inside the warp, phase out from reality is going to yield some interesting perceptions.

I imagine that it would be like sitting in a space shuttle in deep space - but no stars. If you stare into the darkness long enough you start to hallucinate and see things (a human's latent psionic powers renders up images - think of it as a very weak version of the Krell device in the film Forbidden Planet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet) - a concept which I also use as my basis for psionic powers model)


Is transition fast or slow?
Quite fast - relatively speaking. The Navigator is always sensing the warp, and on command can jump the ship.


How long do the engines need to cool down or recharge capacitors before they can translate back again?
As fast as the Plasma engines can supply the power to the Geller Field. So about as quick as new fuel can be pumped into the engines.

The engines are always on during 'flight' they would be very robust. In the double distortion engine (Philverse version of a Geller Field) I imagine the first phase is always on with the second phase ready to go with the introduction of power.

The 'capacitors' would be the second phase field build up.


Does it require that much power that a vessel can't jump with shields up?
As the Philverse Geller Field is a reality bubble, I imagine the shields can function within the bubble. A ship would power up shield before it leaves the warp.


Can vessels lurk close to jump points to attack vessels as they emerge, or do they need to lurk further away, thus giving vessels time to bring up shields after transition?
The ship emerges with shields up.

I also like the idea that as the ship emerges into reality (as it is literally conjured from nothing) that reality has a bit of a problem with it and locally the laws of physics can distort, and masses of energy is released (and a repulsor wave - see below). So another ship may not want to be too close. How close would be up to the captain of the ambushing vessel.

Other questions could be 'why is the jump point on the edge of a solar system?' to which my answer links to the nature of the warp the effect large gravitational bodies have on the warp - they create a repulsing force that pushes ship away, and is the basis of warp flow. It comes down to control and clearing/ aligning the planets. Age of Sail.

If you do not use the Philverse model then the answers can be very different. I like to think my concept can overlay onto 40K 'as is' and need only a few tweaks to be a perfect fit to a given story, but I'm sure others can come up with ideas that also fit just as well :)

One -verse among many.

+++

Getting back to the marines - the idea of having a conceptual model to figure out what things can do; works for marines too. Once you know what a marine is, the rest starts to fall into place. It's not hard to match a marine to the background.

The fun part if making up your own -verse to fit. Taking what you know and creating something that fits 40K yet makes sense to you. Everyone comes up with something different and I like to see all those different ideas!

Philip

Sai-Lauren
29-07-2010, 12:16
Keeping it OT for a second (sorry)

Personally, I'd go with interconnected systems throughout the ship, projecting a field to open a rift between reality and the warp which the ship then flies through.

This requires a lot of power (power requirement is proportional to the dimensions you need to open the rift to, meaning vessels are long and thin to reduce the amount required, and a Cobra would need to create a much smaller rift than an Emperor battleship) - about the only power left on a warp transition is enough to run the Gellar Field (and that has battery backup just in case), emergency lighting and oxygen production through life support, the vessel coasts in on it's momentum, so if it tried to jump whilst in combat, it has to hope that enemy fire doesn't do critical damage before it can escape. Once through transition, the warp engines aren't required, so power can be directed back to main engines for maneuvering in whichever space.

Total cycle time from full discharge to back on line is about 1 hour - and this additional power is required to open the rift in the first place, the rest of the power is simply required to hold it open and stop it cutting the vessel in half.

The rift produces a short duration EM pulse which can potentially damage ships in the area (dependant on the size of rift generated) with an eye in the rift itself where the ships re-enter reality, and making the rift temporarily weakens the boundary between reality and the warp, requiring planetary systems to monitor it, and occasionally divert vessels off to other jump points to allow it to recover.

Multiple intersecting fields are cumulative in size of rift generated, this coupled with the EM pulse means vessels tend to form convoys and coordinate their jumps.

I'd say Imperial tech tends more towards the heavy industrial - not quite brute force and ignorance (that's Orks), more along the lines of "that does what we want, we'll go with it and not bother researching to make it better/smaller/cheaper to produce/less power hungry unless we really absolutely have to".

In fact, part of that design ethos could even be deliberately done by the Adeptus Mechanicus (and thus by extension Techmarines), they honour the Omnisiaah more by adding additional rivets and cast iron to the component. :)

Eldar tech on the other hand would be incredibly refined - bringing it a little closer on topic, if we compare Aspect Warrior Armour to Power Armour, Marines have a massive external backpack that covers their entire back, that houses the power supply, life support etc, whilst Eldar have a much smaller one that does essentially the same job, but only covers their shoulder blades.

Marines have dedicated shunts in the Black Carapace to allow the backpack to process wastes from their blood, kidneys etc, and needs pumps in the backpack to push it around to be cleaned and sent back, Aspect armour might just punch a few needles into the wearers skin when donned, take the wastes directly from the blood stream as the blood flows past, and secrete a healing accelerant when removed, so that the marks are healed up within a few hours, and barely show up as scars a day later.

An Imperial Lascannon runs off something roughly the size of a car battery, whilst an Eldar Brightlance may only need something the size of a D-cell battery (the rectangular ones with the terminals at one end :)).