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Aedes
15-07-2010, 23:31
Just wondering....
it says in the codex that terminator armour was developed for fights in the enclosed space of space hulks. Thats fine for the normal terminators...
but what about the close combat terminators?
You need space to swing around a thunder hammer, and I think it will be very unpractical in a space hulk situation.
I also cant see a lightning claw terminator dancing around with his enemy to get a decent blow in.
So are assault terminators used on space hulks?
And what were they orignally designed for?

Green-is-best
15-07-2010, 23:33
I think you're over-complicating the concept.

Son of Sanguinius
15-07-2010, 23:43
They are impervious to small arms fire and almost anything that can be used in the "confines" of a space hulk. This allows them to close with their opponents to a range where their melee weapons take the advantage.

They have teleportation devices, allowing them to get into and out of the critical places.

By dint of their position and equipment, they are veterans of hand to hand combat.

No need to re-load a hammer or talon, and a storm shield in a hallway is great protection.

Essentially, the only disadvantage is they don't have a storm bolter or a heavy flamer, and they make up for this with melee weapons superior to a power fist.

SharpSilver
16-07-2010, 00:28
Just wondering....
it says in the codex that terminator armour was developed for fights in the enclosed space of space hulks. Thats fine for the normal terminators...
but what about the close combat terminators?
You need space to swing around a thunder hammer, and I think it will be very unpractical in a space hulk situation.
I also cant see a lightning claw terminator dancing around with his enemy to get a decent blow in.
So are assault terminators used on space hulks?
And what were they orignally designed for?

What Assault-Terminators were originally used for? :eyebrows:

Hitting things with a Hammer or Slicing things with a pair of Lightning Claws.:rolleyes:

[SD] Bob Plisskin
16-07-2010, 01:50
The Space Hulk game has a seargent with hammer so....

Polaria
16-07-2010, 06:30
Terminator main weapons are Storm Bolter and Power Fist. If the space is too enclosed to wield Lightning Claws or Power Hammer its too enclosed to wield Storm Bolter or Power Fist too. Then you don't send in Terminators at all, because they are just as useless there no matter how they are armed.

Hunger
16-07-2010, 07:19
it says in the codex that terminator armour was developed for fights in the enclosed space of space hulks.

Incorrect, tactical dreadnought armour was developed for cleaning and repairing the insides of plasma reactors.

Which is ironic, since plasma guns are the weapon of choice for chewing through whole squads of them.

Green-is-best
16-07-2010, 07:29
Incorrect, tactical dreadnought armour was developed for cleaning and repairing the insides of plasma reactors.

Which is ironic, since plasma guns are the weapon of choice for chewing through whole squads of them.

Sshhh....the Inquisition is going to take you away.

AndrewGPaul
16-07-2010, 07:47
Incorrect, tactical dreadnought armour was developed for cleaning and repairing the insides of plasma reactors.

Which is ironic, since plasma guns are the weapon of choice for chewing through whole squads of them.

No, Terminator armour was developed from the suits used to clean reactor vessels, into something suitable for short-ranged tunnel fighting. It's not the same thing. For a start, Terminator armour probably has better impact resistance and superior electronics.

Hunger
16-07-2010, 08:05
Sshhh....the Inquisition is going to take you away.

Is that chloroform I smell?

Wait...no...I...mmmorree....bblluuurrr...gggggghhh ....

Petay1985
16-07-2010, 08:25
The question seems redundant, in a confined space i close combat weapons would more often than not be the weapon on choice in my opinion, even regular terminators have power fists, chain fists and sergeants have power sword.

Askil the Undecided
16-07-2010, 09:16
The question seems redundant, in a confined space i close combat weapons would more often than not be the weapon on choice in my opinion, even regular terminators have power fists, chain fists and sergeants have power sword.

If anything the sword seems the stupid choice as it's long enough to provide problems swinging (unlike a Power fist), you can drop it (unlike Lightning Claws) and it's only got two edges designed to kill with (unlike a Thunder Hammer.)

Polaria
16-07-2010, 09:53
If anything the sword seems the stupid choice as it's long enough to provide problems swinging (unlike a Power fist), you can drop it (unlike Lightning Claws) and it's only got two edges designed to kill with (unlike a Thunder Hammer.)

The point of taking the sword is that the sword has a point. You don't have to swing it. You can stab with it.

Also, I would imagine Terminator armor has an integral system which allows "locking" the fist into shut-position after which you can't really drop the sword or hammer anymore.

Petay1985
16-07-2010, 09:56
The point of taking the sword is that the sword has a point. You don't have to swing it. You can stab with it.

Also, I would imagine Terminator armor has an integral system which allows "locking" the fist into shut-position after which you can't really drop the sword or hammer anymore.

This makes sense, certainly more futuristic and/or practical than the black templar's idea of chaining your weapons to you arms.

Polaria
16-07-2010, 10:10
High medieval age knights have used both systems. They had gauntlets with chains attached to weapons and some had gauntlets that had small locks to keep them shut. Of course the problem with low-tech locked gauntlets is that if your sword gets stuck into something you can't let go easily... I think Termies would use electronic locks instead of manual ones so it wouldn't be a problem.

Hunger
16-07-2010, 10:14
Or electromagnets.

Askil the Undecided
16-07-2010, 10:16
High medieval age knights have used both systems. They had gauntlets with chains attached to weapons and some had gauntlets that had small locks to keep them shut. Of course the problem with low-tech locked gauntlets is that if your sword gets stuck into something you can't let go easily... I think Termies would use electronic locks instead of manual ones so it wouldn't be a problem.

Or maybe due to years of training and genetic modification they're just about strong enough to hold onto their weapons and not idiotic enough to not have considered that they might just have need of their hands if their armour's electronics seize up.

Also a Power sword is a Power weapon it doesn't matter how you hit someone it's going to go through them, because the power field basically reduces friction by tearing the target apart before the weapon gets there but the length makes it less handy in a close up fight.

Hellebore
16-07-2010, 10:36
I think the question conflates two things - the origin of terminator armour and the origin of an assault designation for terminator squads.

Terminator armour was developed first. Military doctrine developed whereby they thought using specialist melee equipment was a good idea. Thus assault terminators were originally used for being assault terminators. Terminator armour was originally designed around reactor suits.

BTW, a plasma reactor need not have the same energy/particle density as a weapons grade plasma blast, so the idea that they can survive in a plasma reactor equals surviving a concentrated blast of plasma is flawed.

Hellebore

Iuris
16-07-2010, 10:49
I think GW simply forgot that enclosed spaces don't favour large combattants, period. They just thought "ok, close range combat, means you need more protection since you're more likely to get hit and extra firepower to kill before you get killed". And then completely forgot that it also means "less space to swing and turn in".

So what should have been a single small but thick shield (enclosed space = you know which direction enemy is coming from), small frame (for tunnels and stuff) and combat drugs for hyper fast reactions became a huge brute incapable of fitting anywhere...

Tpical GW, really...

aim
16-07-2010, 11:44
I think GW simply forgot that enclosed spaces don't favour large combattants, period. They just thought "ok, close range combat, means you need more protection since you're more likely to get hit and extra firepower to kill before you get killed". And then completely forgot that it also means "less space to swing and turn in".

So what should have been a single small but thick shield (enclosed space = you know which direction enemy is coming from), small frame (for tunnels and stuff) and combat drugs for hyper fast reactions became a huge brute incapable of fitting anywhere...

Tpical GW, really...

I'd think its more akin to Marv fighting Kevin..... Once you take away the advantage of his agility (handcuff him to you / put him in an enclosed restrictive space), It doesnt matter how slow you are as long as you hit hard and can take a beating.

Hunger
16-07-2010, 11:55
BTW, a plasma reactor need not have the same energy/particle density as a weapons grade plasma blast, so the idea that they can survive in a plasma reactor equals surviving a concentrated blast of plasma is flawed.

I know, smarty pants, it was just for a giggle. :p

Hellebore
16-07-2010, 12:32
I know, smarty pants, it was just for a giggle. :p

In the Grim Darkness of the far future, there is only Serious Business.:mad:

A sense of humour is unclean.:p

Hellebore

MajorWesJanson
16-07-2010, 16:10
In the Grim Darkness of the far future, there is only Serious Business.:mad:

A sense of humour is unclean.:p

Hellebore

Eisenhorn was so Grimdark he lost the ability to smile...:shifty:

Son of Sanguinius
16-07-2010, 17:00
Eisenhorn was so Grimdark he lost the ability to smile...:shifty:

You have my vote for Quote of the Day. And it's only reached 10 AM where I am.

mob16151
16-07-2010, 21:04
Wasn't the plan back in the day,(pre heresy) to have all Marines eventually equipped with Terminator armor? I seem to remember reading that somewhere in the fluff/Background. Stupid Heresy.

Compel
16-07-2010, 21:08
Or electromagnets.

I think you've just stumbled across a new Ork weapon there.

Mini lifta-droppas.

Could be a Space Marines greatest enemy.

Iuris
17-07-2010, 10:01
Could be a Space Marines greatest enemy.

Nah, that's can openers...

Malice313
17-07-2010, 13:05
The first time I saw close combat Terminators was in Space Hulk. I'm pretty sure the 40k rules came later.

From what I understand of Power Weapons, a big wind-up swing is not necessary to cut through damn near anything anyway.

Farseer Dave
17-07-2010, 18:10
Assault terminators are there to kill the enemies of the Emperor in close combat..
Some marines like to chop ppl apart at close range so Assault terminators are there to accommodate the honored 1st company battle brothers who Like close combat.

Farseer Dave.

Lupe
18-07-2010, 15:26
You have to understand, though. Boarding space hulks is considered a close quarters affair, just as much as clearing a city block is. But that does not mean just confined spaces.

The average Imperial spaceships suffer from the same megalomania and grandeur as gothic cathedrals. Their narrower corridors could probably allow multiple terminators to walk side by side. They would thus have ample room to swing or move around the enemy, if they needed to.

But at some point you start to realize melee weapons could be efficient. A brood of genestealers is sufficiently agile to close in the gap into melee quite fast, and an assault cannon is quite a cumbersome to be wielding in that situation. Hence, a pair of lighting claws help a marine deliver a flurry of blows against multiple targets. A thunder hammer can also swing through several enemies at once, although it's probably a lot handier to smash into the thicker armour of a patriarch.