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Aedes
15-07-2010, 23:39
I was playing with the idea to get some more colour into my army by including a veteran/ normal marine or two of a different chapter. I think it could give some nice personal fluff for my army. I am thinking of my chapter rescuing some Imperial Fists, or a Lone Space Wolf.
The question is--
if a Space Marine force is defeated and only a few survive, but another chapter (not necessary of the same progenitor gene seed) comes for help, will the survivors attach themselves to the new arrivals? Or would they fight guerrilla for themselves?
Yes, it would be most believeable for Ultramarines and their successors, or the different chapters of sons of Dorn, but what of a Dark Angels survivor and a Ultramarines force for example?
Or how would a Space Wolf survivor fare in a Blood Angel force?
I could think that a Space Wolf would refuse to work for Dark Angels (except in extreme situations).
Any thoughts?

Son of Sanguinius
15-07-2010, 23:45
The great thing about this universe is that almost anything is plausible. Hell, the laws of physics are regularly ignored.

I could definitely see a scenario where the only survivors of a Chapter link up with another Chapter and fight until they die, perhaps in some quest for vengeance.

Petay1985
16-07-2010, 07:52
I think as a fighting force they would almost certainly fight together, regardless of differences, 1 man in a warzone is essentially worthless (depending on how you view marines). Anything is possible but i find it very unlikely that a marine, there are exceptions, would choose to fight on his own. They are trained warriors and tacticans, the benefits of working as a team almost always outways being solo.

Would they join the chapter? certainly not they would be returned to their chapter as soon as was practically possible.

metal bawks
16-07-2010, 08:15
Yeah, they'd be returned to their chapter as soon as possible - this is even mentioned in one of the older novels. The rescuing chapter may look at some of their ways as strange, but I think such strong animosity between two chapters that would prevent them from fighting together is very rare. I remember a battle report where Ultramarines and Space Wolves fought together without any qualms.

Question is though, what happens if only a few marines survive from an entire chapter? My guess is they join either a crusading force or the Inquisition.

Petay1985
16-07-2010, 08:27
I think if a chapter only had a few survivors they would be inducted into another fighting force, but retain their heraldry/chapter identity.

Penitent Engine
16-07-2010, 08:49
I was of the understanding that if a chapter is virtually annihilated a new one is created to fill its place. The remaining Marines from the old chapter are either redistributed amongst other chapters or are reassigned to the new one.

Askil the Undecided
16-07-2010, 09:04
I think this is going to boil down to one of the many "do SM act like proud arrogant monastic/knightly orders or an intelligent and practical military force" arguments.

Polaria
16-07-2010, 10:04
Space Marines are not a modern military organization. They never were and never will be. Some chapters may act like modern military organizations do, but guess what? They are non-codex chapters and in minority because codex does not support modern military thinking.

Each chapter is not just a unit in military. Its a cult, a philosophy, a whole unique way of life different from those of other chapters.

Askil the Undecided
16-07-2010, 10:10
Space Marines are not a modern military organization. They never were and never will be. Some chapters may act like modern military organizations do, but guess what? They are non-codex chapters and in minority because codex does not support modern military thinking.

Each chapter is not just a unit in military. Its a cult, a philosophy, a whole unique way of life different from those of other chapters.

Amen to that! Keep preaching the true word!

*Ahem*

I concur.

MajorWesJanson
16-07-2010, 12:36
I think this is going to boil down to one of the many "do SM act like proud arrogant monastic/knightly orders or an intelligent and practical military force" arguments.

Or both. There are 1000 chapters from 9 geneseed lines and philosophical starts. Even the second founding has major philosophical splits. Black Templars and Imperial Fists are vastly different. Modern terms, look at the Mortifactors and how far they drifted from their Ultramarine lineage.

Space Marines are not a monolithic entity. There are probably hundreds of separate schools of thought, from near identical to wildly divergnt from each other.

Jind_Singh
16-07-2010, 18:27
well from reading about the crimson fists it sounds like if a chapter is on the brink it'll either have the chance to rebuild or launch a punitive crusade - knowing that the end will bring their demise.
I'm sure that survivors would be assigned with the rescuing chapter to complete the mission until such a time the marines could be sent back to their own forces.
It seems unlikely that the marines could join another chapter as they wouldn't, quite simply, fit in - their gene seed is different, they wouldn't have the same sense of loyalty for the adopted marines, and they would not likely change their insignia for another chapter - would be shameful to their proud heritage, etc, etc.

FabricatorGeneralMike
16-07-2010, 21:20
I think it depends on what 'school of thought' the chapter belongs to. We know there are the 'hardline' chapters ie Black Templars, Ultrablingers. There are also 'less fanatical' Chapters. I think it would depend on what chapter it happened to.

But the great thing about 40k is that it's your game and story. Do what you think is cool.

I personally think that most marines know their own worth, but it would depend on their chapter. Would some of them fight the good fight and die, yes. Would some of them regroup and try to keep on fighting, yes. It's down to what story you are trying to tell and what you want to accomplish.

The real question is why are you posting here Jind, when you are supposed to be working? ;)

Malice313
17-07-2010, 13:33
The units of the other chapters could just be "Assisting their Battle Brothers in their struggle until they can rejoin their chapter".

...which, if you are helping out some Black Templars, could be a while.

metal bawks
17-07-2010, 17:52
well from reading about the crimson fists it sounds like if a chapter is on the brink it'll either have the chance to rebuild or launch a punitive crusade - knowing that the end will bring their demise.
I'm sure that survivors would be assigned with the rescuing chapter to complete the mission until such a time the marines could be sent back to their own forces.
It seems unlikely that the marines could join another chapter as they wouldn't, quite simply, fit in - their gene seed is different, they wouldn't have the same sense of loyalty for the adopted marines, and they would not likely change their insignia for another chapter - would be shameful to their proud heritage, etc, etc.

+1
Chapters are a very closed society - much like some monasteries in our own world. There are some exceptions to this, e.g. the Ultramarines - but the fluff clearly points out this is a rarity. The the vast majority of marines rarely if ever have any contact with humans outside their own chapter. Such contact is limited to the Chapter Master, Captains and the non-marine administrative staff.

When you add that to the Marines' pride and indoctrination, full integration with another chapter does seem extremely unlikely.

ChaplainOrion
18-07-2010, 05:08
I could definitely see a scenario where the only survivors of a Chapter link up with another Chapter and fight until they die, perhaps in some quest for vengeance.

All while an asskicking guitar solo is being played:evilgrin::cool::cool::D.

But really all space marines are brothers and will fight along side each other at any time. Survivors that still live through the thing when it's over will either go back to the homeworld/chapter fleet for debriefing, and reassignment. Or if they were fighting xeno scum they would be moree likely to join Deathwatch.

Gorbad Ironclaw
18-07-2010, 09:20
The great thing about this universe is that almost anything is plausible.

No. Anything is possible, but that doesn't mean that everything is plausible.

I would think that most marines could cooperate fairly well on the ground for the extension of a particular engagement(although that would depend on the personalities involved and possibly past history between the two forces). But I would expect any lost marines to return to there parent chapter as soon as possible.

But it still gives you plenty of scope for painting different stuff if that's what you like. Just be careful as it can end up looking a bit random since you generally don't have that many marine models on the table anyway.

Sunfang
18-07-2010, 17:21
I can imagine and Ultra hanging out with a bunch of blood angels...he would be terrified and probably file a petition for exterminatus. Just one look at the death company and he just might open fire.

DA have a dark secret that drives them, would they take the risk of someone poking about their business?

SW on the other hand would probably pour you a drink and expect stories as they feed scraps to their wolves.

Aedes
27-07-2010, 23:44
Thanks for all the suggestions.
I decided to add a lone space wolf to my army--
he was rescued by my chapter and is now fighting with them until he can return to Fenris.
I decided on the Space Wolf because I agree- an Ultra would be shocked by the blood rage of the Blood Angels and I dont think he would join them in battle.
A Space Wolf would understand the berserker rage, I think.
Another point is-- I have a DIY chapter, and part of it had turned to Chaos after a Warp storm, with the loyal marines rescued by their chief librarian.
Since then, the survivors of the chapter, the loyal ones and the renegates, have been hunted by the Imperium.
I think if a Space Wolf realizes that the loyal marines still have honour and fight for humanity, he will forget his orders and and act using his own brain and help fighting the enemy of mankind. At least, this is what Grimnar would do?
I any case, I think a lone Wolf as a survivor makes the most sense in my army--
and he adds a bit of narrative depth and fluff...
I think I will have ONLY ONE Space Wolf survivor in my army, of course he will adapt to my army rules, and he will join my Death Company-- because I think thats where he fits best. The Blood Angels in Blood Rage and the Space Wolf deadly drunk....

moreblood
28-07-2010, 10:30
i think a chapter survivor could join something like the deathwatch

Tenngate
28-07-2010, 12:49
I've been following this thread and I find it of great interest as my Chapter is very much a mish mash of marines. Believing the Ultramarines (like a 'few' others on warseer) to be a little too vanilla and populist but still loving a great deal of their canon and style i've fashioned a small company of Marines out of their successor chapters.
It follows that successor chapters (particularly if they are codex followers) should be able to easily integrate into battle companies during a crusade or otherwise. During grand campaigns the contingents of space marines sent are often relatively small - surely it is the number of chapters that contribute that render an opposable force. It follows that - far from acting independently and shunning their brothers they would share information, resources specialists and strategy as would any other fighting formation.
Now, looking at the 40k Starmap the universe is a big, nasty place that we know and love. The distances are vast. Upon arriving at their destination the contingent then have to face the foe. My tabletop experiences often tell the story that casualties are high - and even following victory a mauling is certainly on the cards. 30,000 light years to be torn to pieces in a couple of hours? Refuse to accept help, resources, even temporary Integration into other chapters? Unlikely. The notion of being 'Returned as quickly as possible to their chapter" is rather idealist.
I just love the idea of a two tactical squads sent out in a light cruiser to contribute to a campaign, then forty years later three of them return to the Chapter Monastery covered in battle honours bearing a few other chapters insignia and full of stories of their exploits. Gritty, determined and hard as nails.
Ok, I accept the difficulties in certain Chapters getting on etc - and maybe their pride would get in the way in these exceptions...yes yes, but there are 1000 plus chapters without (however cool) personality disorders.

That's my lot.

Tenngate
28-07-2010, 12:52
And as far as getting home is concerned - remember Odysseus? I wish your lone wolf luck Aedes!

Aedes
28-07-2010, 23:01
Thanks Tenngate!
I like your idea with the mix of chapters, and actually, your reason sounds very believeable.
For my Lone Wolf coming home...the story would be much more long lasting and convincing if one of our club wasnt a Space Wolf player...

Tenngate
30-07-2010, 10:58
This has really got me thinking... I'm now considering having a lone Dark Angel to mope about in my ranks. I imagine he spends a good deal of time brooding in the corner of the armoury thinking about what he'll do when he finds the member of the fallen who massacred his squad...

Easy E
30-07-2010, 21:11
The best reason I can think of for mixing marines in your army is a Crusade force. Those frequently take small units of SM from various chapters and have them work together for a common puprose.

That said, I think most people have hit it on the head. Fight till the end of the campaign and tehn return to their chapter as soon as possible.

Aedes
03-08-2010, 09:24
Hmmm...
well, I have finished my lone space Wolf for my army...
as well as his background.
If you are interested, have a look and tell me how/ if he fits.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256678

Grubnar
03-08-2010, 13:02
Hmmm...
well, I have finished my lone space Wolf for my army...
as well as his background.
If you are interested, have a look and tell me how/ if he fits.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256678

He fits!
Although I would spell his name with a "k" (Erik), making it look more viking like.
Speaking as a Space Wolves player and collector (my only fully pained army) I really like what you have done there, congratulations on a job well done.

P.S. I really like your akimbo plasma pistol count-as plasmagun armed marine, brilliant!

Aedes
03-08-2010, 23:29
Thanks Grubnar--
great honour to hear this from a Space Wolf player.
;)

thelightbringer
04-08-2010, 15:49
There is nothing to stop you having a battlegroup! A temporary gathering of Marines in a particular campaign!Fot Medusa 5 campaign I had mainly ultras with some Templar and Scars which had their chapter colours but all vehicles and troops had a marking identifying them as part of the 'Gogmagog' battlegroup.

dethrolla
15-08-2010, 17:26
On topic, I believe. I would like your thoughts or suggestions regarding some background I have worked on for a chapter which has lost so many marines that it cannot survive. Essentially it is written to allow me to include a single named marine ("The Lion") in various ways in friendly games (mostly using Codex Daemonhunters / Witch Hunters with the figure 'counting as' some choice from that army). I prefer narrative campaigns.
So on with the details:

The Dragon Guard and Lions of Dorn chapters have a history of close brotherhood. Some 4,000 years ago the Dragon Guard were almost destroyed, and the survivors served as support to the Lions for almost a century as they slowly regained their numbers. Around a century ago their positions were reversed.

The Dragon Guard answered the call for aid but arrived too late to prevent the near-
annihilation of the Lions of Dorn. Only twenty Lions survived, too few for the chapter to
recover. The Dragon Guard Captain offered the survivors a place alongside his chapter where they could continue the fight against the enemies of mankind. The Lions carefully considered this offer, discussing it together through a day and a night, but eventually declined.

They decided that the best way to honour their heritage was to ensure that the name of the Lions of Dorn would be remembered, that whenever humans thought of Space Marines they would think not only of the Ultramarines, the Space Wolves, or the Iron Fists, but also of the Lions of Dorn. They chose to fight on in their own way.

They decided that each would go alone into the world and seek out the enemies of the
Imperium in their own way, fighting evil wherever they might find it, and always passing on the tale of the Lions of Dorn. From that day forwards each one of the twenty would be known to all who met him as the Lion. Their individual names no longer mattered. All that was important was the image they projected of the space marine from the Lions of Dorn chapter who came to a place and defeated the evil that threatened it.

On hearing their decision the Dragon Guard Captain told them that whatever help they might ask of him they would receive. After more days of discussion the Lions of Dorn asked of him a boon to which he was honoured to agree. Their Apothecarion on the moon of their homeworld would be maintained for them by the Dragon Guard, while the survivors of their world would become the stewards of their chapter-fortress. The Lions asked that the Dragon Guard supply the apothecarion staff necessary to create a new Lion of Dorn should they receive a request for such service. The Dragon Guard Captain swore that his chapter would support the Twenty Lions in this way "for all time".

The Dragon Guard gave each of the Lions some basic training as an apothecary. They would not become apothecaries but were given sufficient knowledge to maintain themselves at peak levels of health and performance, to make the tests necessary to ensure tissue compatability in any potential aspirant, and to not only use a reductor but be able to teach it's use to trusted followers. Each now carries a reductor and the equipment necessary to store and transport progenoid glands in stasis.

The Twenty Lions travel alone and rarely do any meet. Some serve in an Inquisitor's retinue for a time, but the majority gather a small retinue of followers. All are dependant on the good will of ships captains for interstellar travel as no Chapter ships survived the
destruction of their world. They travel where they will or where fate takes them, and they fight the enemies of Man wherever they go. They know that they are unlikely to survive more than a few hundred years at best, but they intend to uphold the reputation of the Chapter for as long as they are able, and they know that there are many situations where one strong man may make a difference.

A Lion's retinue consists of trusted allies who accept that their final duty to him may well
be to extract his progenoid glands, and return them in stasis to his homeworld, from whence a summons may be sent to the Dragon Guard to ask for their apothecaries aid in creating a new Lion of Dorn.

Each Lion searches out his own potential replacement, nurturing and training him so that
should the Lion fall his progenoids may be passed on to him. Most of these aspirants grow too old before the Lion's eventual death, so there are many former aspirants left in the wake of each Lion. Their promise to each aspirant, made when they first take him on, is that if by the time of their sixteenth birthday they have not begun the process of becoming the new Lion, then he will take them to a Schola Progenium facility where they will be educated and trained to become a valued imperial servant. Occasionally a former aspirant will be allowed to remain as one of the Lion's retinue, but most move on to an alternative life of service to the Imperium.

Dragon Guard apothecaries and a librarian answer the call from the Lions of Dorn and travel to the moon of the Lions' homeworld and there perform all of the tests necessary to ensure that the potential aspirant is physically and spiritually able to become a space marine.

They begin the process on the moon, and then the initiate is taken back with them to train and develop with the Dragon Guard's own initiates.

Four of the six Lion aspirants so far undergoing the transformation have died during the process, but the 33% survival rate is surprisingly high nevertheless. On those four occasions the Dragon Guard have found replacements for them.

The hypno-conditioning that the Lions of Dorn initiate receives is based on that of the
Lions of Dorn, the Dragon Guard would never modify the development of a Lion by forcing
Dragon Guard values onto his psyche. However, the physical training is the standard
Dragon Guard regimen, and thus includes such things as how to fight in squads or amongst larger Space Marine formations.

Thus each new Lion knows the Dragon Guard way inside out, and has full marine training and skills. His hypno-conditioning instills the traditions of his own Chapter into him, and he is to all intents and purposes a Lion of Dorn. This is often seen in the competition and rivalry between him and the Dragon Guard initiates he has developed with. However, it is a rivalry between brothers. The new Lion forges strong bonds of mutual respect with the Dragon Guard.

It is not known how many Lions of Dorn survive. The Dragon Guard apothecaries have helped to create six new Lions of Dorn in the century since that chapter was destroyed, one of whom might be called third generation, but how many of the other 15 original Lions still live is unknown even to the Lions. However, they endure, and while any still lives the Lions of Dorn Chapter lives.

--------------------

I've tried to stay within the accepted bounds of fluff, but I know I'm skating near to the edge a little. Is there anything here that is absolutely not feasible within the generally accepted canon. I am aiming for that knight-errant feel.