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Memnos
16-07-2010, 12:23
Having started Beastmen for 8th, I wanted to share a bit about how my first few games have gone and who they were against, plus what my observations were.

I have managed to eke out 5 wins, 0 ties and 1 loss against 5 different players. They were against:

2 Empire games(Both against same general - Both wins)
2 High Elf games(Against different generals - One win, one loss)
1 Ogre player(New general again - Win)
1 Lizardman(New General again - Win)

In these battles, I've learned a few things that I thought I'd share:

1) Beastmen are a target-rich opponent - With the +1 S, +1 T spell and Primal Fury, Ungor are a dangerous opponent with a character in it. They can't be ignored to concentrate on what you think is 'more dangerous', because 30 Ungor in Horde formation can do serious damage and has won more than one fight.

2) Centigors are my new 'Dark horse favourite' for the 8th edition. Often underestimated as people assume Cavalry is useless, my Centigors in 6 games have managed to kill:

A unit of 15 Saurus+Scar Veteran, to a man - Rolling double 1s and getting frenzy and hatred has assured that this opponent will never let my Centigors get the charge again, just in case.

A high elf mage+seaguard.

A unit of Swordsmen + their Priest+ a unit of Halberdiers who countercharged me in the flank.

and have done quite well in every game, bar one when a unit of Empire Halberdiers surprised me with a 17 inch charge and wiped them out to a man.

Simply put, S6, T5 on the charge with the augmentation spell, with 2 attacks each(Potentially 19 with my unit of 6) means that they really can't afford to be ignored. In fact, in every one of the examples given, the Centigors did a frontal charge.

B) Cheap Chaos Spawn are another unit that has been improved - d6+1 S5 attacks, +1 S 5 stomp hit and T6 makes this unit decent. What makes it truly fantastic, however, is the fact that it's a Monstrous Beast with random movement. Monstrous Beasts can move in to buildings. Random movement means you can accidentally lurch in to someone's flank from a building, which I'm not certain if any other unit can do. This means that, in urban settings(When you roll buildings), you can have Spawn lurching out doorways and hitting units in the flank. And it works as a tactic when it hits flanks.

C) Decent magic - With the option to take Lore of Beasts, Lore of Shadow and Lore of Death, their cheap Wizards are one of the most solid additions - Especially at S 4, T5 for the Great Bray Shaman.


In conclusion: What I've noticed is a very solid core, inexpensive enough to be able to go toe-to-toe with anyone, but tough enough that it can't be dismissed by anyone. Especially with augments, curses and hexes on your side.

willowdark
16-07-2010, 12:45
Glad to here such a positive report, especially about the Centigors. They jumped out at me as a solid unit, especially with a banner and definitely in support.

And yes, Hordes of Ungors with Beast magic buffs look down right terrible to have to fight.

Hydex
16-07-2010, 12:58
Which characters did you use?

And how many Centigors in this unit ? :D

Memnos
16-07-2010, 13:37
Which characters did you use?

And how many Centigors in this unit ? :D

Generic ones. Beastmen special characters are pants, with the exception of Slugtongue and Malagor(For certain leadership bomb armies, since they can't use the General's leadership). Some might swear by rerolling Ambush, but I didn't use Ambush in any of my games. At all.

Under the new edition, I can cross the board almost entirely before an ambusher shows up. Ambush isn't really necessary under the new rules, since we get so many more units than most others. Might be necessary against a gunline, but might backfire to be honest.

So, for simplicity's sake, the two necessary characters are:

A generic Great Bray-Shaman - There are lots of little things he can do, depending on how you outfit him.

A battle-standard - Rerolls for Primal Fury are FANTASTIC. I can't say how often a reroll has saved my bum because it let me reroll.

And 6 Centigor is the way to go. It's cheap enough that you can spam units of them, but effective enough to wipe out support units on the charge, or mainstay units in the flank.

Djekar
16-07-2010, 14:16
I am also overjoyed to hear this report.

A minor correction, your spawn are S4 T5, not S5 T6 as you have stated good sir.

Keep up the wins!

Memnos
16-07-2010, 14:18
I am also overjoyed to hear this report.

A minor correction, your spawn are S4 T5, not S5 T6 as you have stated good sir.

Keep up the wins!

They're S5 T6 when you cast the default Beasts spell on them, which nobody expects. ;)

Cast it once or twice on them in a game before combat and your Spawn will soon be targeted by enemy fire, hoping to take down your 55 point unit - And it will save many other units in doing so.

willowdark
16-07-2010, 14:19
I think there is a lot of really great strategy working here. Keep it up.

Djekar
16-07-2010, 14:22
While you are technically correct (the best kind of correct!), I am left wondering if there might not be better targets.

Techpriest
16-07-2010, 14:27
With 2 Bray Shamans, you can cast the signature spell twice a turn. So there is plenty of time to hit multiple targets throughout the game. You just have to use a bit of Tactics to know when to hit each unit.

Hydex
16-07-2010, 14:30
So, for simplicity's sake, the two necessary characters are:

A generic Great Bray-Shaman - There are lots of little things he can do, depending on how you outfit him.

A battle-standard - Rerolls for Primal Fury are FANTASTIC. I can't say how often a reroll has saved my bum because it let me reroll.

And 6 Centigor is the way to go. It's cheap enough that you can spam units of them, but effective enough to wipe out support units on the charge, or mainstay units in the flank.

Nice.

I'm curious about the outfit of your Great Shaman though :angel:

Memnos
16-07-2010, 14:31
While you are technically correct (the best kind of correct!), I am left wondering if there might not be better targets.

It depends. If he can get a flank charge, being S 5, T 6 means he will survive and with potentially 9 wounds on his side, he may even win combat. I will admit that I have only cast it on the Spawn 3 times in 6 games, but every time it made a huge difference.

The vast majority of the time, I cast it on my Centigors. However, with multiple Shamans, it being the default spell, you could theoretically blanket your army with the spell.

Arbas
16-07-2010, 15:07
Love to see armies that don't rely on special characters :)

Mike3791
16-07-2010, 15:33
Don't your opponents try to dispel the buff?

LevDaddy
16-07-2010, 17:59
It's great to hear about your success so far. I'm a VC player but I'm slowly starting a Beastmen army as well and I love the news about the underrated Centigors.

Did you use Lore of the Wild at all? Can you share some of your lists with us?

HeroFox
16-07-2010, 18:20
What kind of opponents did you face?
Serious question. Rookies? Veterans? Power gamers? fluffy casuals?

Tyranno1
16-07-2010, 18:37
Excellent to hear some positive beast talk =). I will definatly be trying a few of these stratagies, I really like the idea of an Ungor phalanx. And it good to hear that the chaos spawn can be useful, time to get a specially converted beast one.

And good to hear that my units of 6 centigors will still be useful.

Golradir
16-07-2010, 18:38
With 2 Bray Shamans, you can cast the signature spell twice a turn. So there is plenty of time to hit multiple targets throughout the game. You just have to use a bit of Tactics to know when to hit each unit.

How can you cast a spell twice a turn when any given spell may only be known once in an army?

Regarding the spawn in buildings, the rules state that when a unit moves out of a building, it is placed next to it and cannot move further that turn -- are you sure the spawn circumvents this?

Techpriest
16-07-2010, 19:06
Any Wizard can substitute the Signature spell for one of the rolled ones. The Signature speel and any bound spells and inate spells can be duplicated. So 2 Bray Shamans can have the Signature spell and cast it.

Hoster
16-07-2010, 20:24
I don't know all the options but wouldn't most other armies that can take Lore of Beasts be able to do a horde of cheap guys boosted with Wildform? Is the 1 casting difficulty reduction enough to make up for the poor support the gors get from the rest of the army?

I do like the idea of centigors, although they seem a bit pricy considering the lack of armor.

Did you use any of the big creatures in your army?

Mithras69
16-07-2010, 23:28
Some questions from me too, hope you don't mind:

1) How do you arm your ungor, with spears or hand weapons?
2) I am surprised by the performance of your centi's, didn't you find their I2 combined with low numbers a problem? One would think they are be ineffective before they can strike back. Or did you roll +2I for them?

Paraelix
17-07-2010, 06:55
It depends. If he can get a flank charge, being S 5, T 6 means he will survive and with potentially 9 wounds on his side, he may even win combat.

Uh, what? He has D6+1 attacks and can Stomp another 1 model. How are you killing 9?

Furthermore, I know you used the signiature spell alot, but it is pointless to argue everything's greatness based on how they all function with a spell on them... It is equivalent to me swearing by my Saurus because in one game I boosted their toughness to 8 with a LoLife spell...

Also, rather than piecemeal explaining sections of your army to people... Perhaps post the list, points size, and (as asked previously) the skill level of the opponents you faced. I am finding it hard to believe you outmagicked all your opponents.

Memnos
17-07-2010, 09:37
Some questions from me too, hope you don't mind:

1) How do you arm your ungor, with spears or hand weapons?
2) I am surprised by the performance of your centi's, didn't you find their I2 combined with low numbers a problem? One would think they are be ineffective before they can strike back. Or did you roll +2I for them?

Lot of questions, but good ones, so I'm going to start with this, then I'll answer as many as I can:

Ungor, generally, I will arm with hand weapons and shields. In smaller points values, I will throw spears on them. Against lightly armoured foes, I put in Horde formation. Against foes with many attacks, I minimize frontage and count on the 6+ ward and toughness 4 to mitigate damage. Characters can really help add to combat resolution. Especially cheap ones.

Centigor, with the Lore of Beasts, have a 4+ save and a toughness of 5. While they can't beat(Say) Chaos Warriors with Halberds on the charge, they're a supremely inexpensive unit that is dangerous enough to wipe out smaller units on the charge. Against things like Saurus, Skeletons, Orcs, Marauders with Mark of Khorne and great weapons(Not with flails), Chaos Warriors with Great Weapons, or any unit hitting on the flank, they are amazing. They are not great against:

Chaos Warriors with Halberds - 4+ save, even T5, is not great when you have potentially 40 S 5 attacks coming back. Hit them on the flank and you'll do all right.

Blood Knights - Hit them on the flank. You can have multiple, less expensive units.

And similar units. Basically: Unless the opponent goes first with lots of attacks at high strength, you should be okay.

The skill level of my opponents

Difficult to say. These were all pickup games at my LGS. It wasn't in a tournament or anything. The lizardman guy was an older gentleman, as was the second high elf player I won against. The High Elf Player I lost against was about 16 and the Empire Player was late teens as well. Not having played most of them before(I played rarely in 7th due to my issues with balance)

The outfitting of my Shamans

Bare bones. Almost nothing. I had the channelling staff on my Bray Shaman lord and that is it. This lets me get lots more of them with the default spell, which was the centerpiece of my tactics. Plus, it gives much needed resiliency to me. By the time they can assassinate one of my wizards, I can sure as sunrise assassinate one of theirs.

Army points size and list

I played lists from 500+. Perhaps, with scaling, the army will not operate as well at 3000. That's a fair point. However, on the points lists I've played at at points values under the 2500/3000 level, here is generally how I've gotten things on(For instance) the 1000 point list:

1) Great Bray Shaman with Channeling staff, lev 4. This is someone who can fit in to even a 1000 point list. And he's great.

2) Battle Standard with Heavy Armour, Scaly Skin, Ramhorn Helm, shield, a single armour reroll and the AP hand weapon.

3) A unit of at least 30 Ungor - Depending on points values, I've taken more than one. I really can't say enough about how good 5 points with the ability to almost always reroll attacks has helped.

4) A unit of 30 Gor with extra hand weapons- I wanted to like these guys, but they never actually performed. I suspected having T5 would help them. It hasn't so far.

5) A single spawn - He has always outperformed or taken enough punishment to make him worthwhile.

6) A unit of 6 Centigor, naked.

I have taken no monsters on any of my lists. I'm considering trying the Cygor for the much needed reduction of ranks on enemies, but for right now, hordes of Shamans have done better for me. However, only a single Cygor will probably not make a huge difference and that's all you can afford on 2000.

I'm also considering taking Ghorros for Centigor as core, but with their expense, I'm worried that I won't have enough fodder.

Mithras69
17-07-2010, 20:32
Thanks, that was an interesting read for a starting beastmen general. I think the Herdstone shard would be a valuable addition in your setup with several cheap brays to generate some more power dice. Have you tried it yet?

Paraelix
18-07-2010, 23:21
Ungor are only T3.

What difference does it make having Chaos Warriors with Halberds charge?

And finally, the Cygor can't break ranks as he has no rank bonus of his own.

Memnos
19-07-2010, 06:36
Ungor are only T3.

What difference does it make having Chaos Warriors with Halberds charge?

And finally, the Cygor can't break ranks as he has no rank bonus of his own.

1: Ungor are T4 with the basic spell of Beasts, of which you will have many abilities to cast it(Because it's the default spell and you can take it multiple times). You should be able to cast it at least once on an important unit at the time. Ungor, at least the important unit, will be S 4 T 4 on the turn you need it to be, almost guaranteed. I've never had that not happen.

2: If Centigor charge Chaos Warriors with Halberds, the Chaos Warriors go first at S5 and massacre small units of Centigor. Chaos Warriors with Great Weapons, however, will get horribly mangled by a unit of Centigor. You'll kill far more than you'll lose as you'll kill more than the points cost of your Centigor. If you hit on the flank, you'll get fewer attacks back.

3: Cygor break ranks in the new edition by dropping a stonethrower template on units. By reducing numbers, you'll have more ranks when you charge them with another unit. This will get them to lose Stubborn, which is vital. It might even reduce attacks back.

Souppilgrim
19-07-2010, 07:02
In defense of the OP, a lot of buff spells get through if you cast them first, because no one wants to miss the dispel on a transformation or something.

shortlegs
19-07-2010, 11:29
Maybe it is just me, but your explanations of how your units worked etc all seem to revolve around the single assumption that they all have the default beast spell on them. If anything it seems to say that the default beast spell is good rather than the beastmen army is (although I'm not saying it isn't, just that the basis of argument is wrong..)

It is easy for units to falsely appear very strong when you only talk about their buffed stats. What if your opponent has the same buffs? What if your magic is dispelled? What if you get a crap roll of say 6+1 for the dice during your magic phase?

If we are to be objective in our assessment, we should be talking only about the unit by itself.

Sandals
19-07-2010, 15:01
I can see his point though. you can't take anything in isolation in this game, it's always dependant on outside factors. 10 ungors may not be much, but what it they're behind you? a single spwan isn't great, but what if it rolls a huge movement and charges a wizard?

there are many other examples of units that in isolation would be athought of as rubbish, but when combined into an army with a battleplan they work well.

having said that, I think you need to think about what you would do if you did run into something that can take away your magic. i know your plan is to have the signature spell on pretty much anything and everything, but against a proper anti magic army (dwarfs spring to mind) that may not be possible. what and how do you think you would do then?

shortlegs
19-07-2010, 16:25
I can see his point though. you can't take anything in isolation in this game, it's always dependant on outside factors. 10 ungors may not be much, but what it they're behind you? a single spwan isn't great, but what if it rolls a huge movement and charges a wizard?

there are many other examples of units that in isolation would be athought of as rubbish, but when combined into an army with a battleplan they work well.
Agreed, but the same could be said of ANY unit, INCLUDING those fielded by your opponent. Everything has different impacts and effectiveness given a certain situation, but if you want to assess the unit's capability or effectiveness against another, you need a basic assumption that everything else is equal.

Unless the buff is something that you are guaranteed to get, and isn't readily available to your opponent (such as buffs from your own army's units like warshrine or cauldron), then including its effects in your assessment is valid. Otherwise, repeatedly saying that your units rock just because they had a spell buff on them doesn't actually say the unit itself is good, especially when the buff can be dispelled or given to your enemy's units as well.

Paraelix
19-07-2010, 20:18
Which is the point I've been trying to make the whole time guys. And seriously OP, if you want to talk about units with a spell cast on them... explicitly say so because I don't automatically assume your tactical expertise comes at the price of having to build my army exactly like yours...

Furthermore, you haven't explained my second question. Honestly, it makes no difference to your troops (aside from them getting +1 to combat res) if Halberds charge against you... They go first anyway. The point you should've been trying to make was that the charge was important for your own spears (assuming you were taking them and not Great Weapons).

ghost of scubasteve
19-07-2010, 22:55
you dudes need to calm down, youre pretty much garaunteed to get the buff off once a turn

Paraelix
19-07-2010, 22:59
you dudes need to calm down, youre pretty much garaunteed to get the buff off once a turn

Hah. Clearly you haven't seem any anti-magic builds out there >_>

Lvl 4 Gobbo shaman- Staff of Sneaky Stealing
Big unit of Blorcs with Mork's Spirit Totem.

+4 dispel dice, +1 channelling, +4 to roll from Shaman.

But I'm sure you're right. It's totes easy :rolleyes: