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Deathmaster mitch
17-07-2010, 13:30
Hey

I know im going to get shot down by some one for this post by im going to put it up any way

At the moment all across the interwebs many people are complaining on how bad VC armies will be in 8th ed with a lot of people rating them as one of the worst 8th ed armies witch in my opinion is completely not true VC armies have access to in my opinion one of the best rule book lores for them in the game lore of LIGHT just think about it there are 3 spells in the lore that are buff spells that are basically super helm of commandments (Phas protection, time warp and speed of light)witch all buff your units from being crap in close combat to having units of 20 skelys holding up units of chaos knights in combat just casting these pha’s protection and speed of light with a level 4 in bubble form and the time warp on your grave guard units (if you take any )
Then with any other dice your vampire lord or normal vampires can invocate or your lord can cast some awesome damage spells

just my 2 cents worth

SideshowLucifer
17-07-2010, 13:41
VC can't take Lore of Light. It specificly says so in the AB.

Deathmaster mitch
17-07-2010, 13:47
im pretty sure that thats lore of life

Deathmaster mitch
17-07-2010, 13:48
you use the forbidden lore vampire power

Ultimate Life Form
17-07-2010, 13:57
VC can't take Lore of Light. It specificly says so in the AB.

That is most untrue.

Deathmaster mitch
17-07-2010, 14:05
still i do agree that it dose not make any sense but its so awesome when you think about it

and funny

lethlis
17-07-2010, 14:22
The ability specifies the lore of life as not useable, however the debuff spells of shadow are going to be amazing in combination with some of our other stuff.

SideshowLucifer
17-07-2010, 14:22
You're right. It is life *sigh* not enough coffee yet.

Ovassilias
17-07-2010, 14:46
Not gonna shoot u down but i am gonna break down the reassons why VC with 8th are not a top tier army, but in fact they have been hit pretty bad.

First of all, yes they can take Lore of Light with forbidden lore vamp power, they cant take Life. But thats not good enough to make the army top tier.

reassons.

1) Autobreak from fear is gone, vamp units have really low stats and they were counting on resolution AND outnumber (which is gone as well for the +1 CR) to hold and grind units.
This tactic was based upon the 6 attack infrantry and was working with either autobreaking them from fear, or the enemy not doing enough wounds and loosing.

Now with step up (supposrt attacks) and steadfast, the low stat undead cant use it. Re-roll all LD tests from BSB has made fear useless as well, so dont count on WS1 opponents, never.

2) Point cost of all the units was created based on fear autobreaks and getting to atack first if u charged, thus the low stats. Every unit in there is overcosted. Ill break them down as well.

-zombies 4pts for a WS1-S2-T2-I1 AND LD2 unit (which means no reform without the general since zombies CANT be joined by characters)
Tarpit? dont think so, units with horde or even 7 front can dish out 15 attacks with a champ at them and with 1A per model only, hitting them on 3's wounding them on 2's....then they cramble. Not even 40 strong can last more then 2 CC rounds.
-Skeletons 8pts, 9 with spear WS2! I2! Ld2!!!!....compare it to a marauder and plz tell me that this guy is not overcosted. Same things apply for zombies but with a 5+sv and a 6+parry, still they die so fast and they crumble even faster.
-Ghouls, these guys are about right in pts and stats...biggest problem no banner or musician which means less break points and NO swift reforms EVER.
-Dire wolves.....not fast cav now with the update AND they dont count for 25%.....wth?
-Bat swarm...looooool worst then zombie, does not count for 25% and it HOVERS WITH M1!!!!!!! meaning pursue or overun (not that it will ever happen just saying) is done with M1.
-Corpse Cart, nice abbilities but needs a PD from the pool to work which makes it a 100pts unit that DOES NOT count for core to give -1 to cast or +1to raise. All of that with a great WS2 and STR2. Way overcosted imo.



-GG. Best unit available, i would suggest an LD increase cause 6 is really low but u can live with it.
-Black Knights. Same as GG, low LD but can use characters, ethereal movement is the best thing for them but 8th and Cavarly are not friends.
-Fell Bats. Lost the "infantry" status, skirmishers got hit really hard, again M1, Ld3 but still its an ok unit.
-Spirit Host. Ok so many magic attacks, banners and spells that for 65 per base and 3+ unit size u must feel really brave to take them. The funny thing is they have better stats (except I, which is 1 btw) then zombies and skellies and they are ghosts lol.
-Varghulf....ooooook now it crumbles and doesnt take the regen sv, I2!!!! and in theory its a vampire!!??!! Since its a solo monster charging in and taking around 12 attacks in its face with regen nurf....not worth it. Since Unit strength is gone another wound on its profile could be good.
-Wraiths. Ok decent stats, ethereal and GW's (so I doesnt really matter) but 50pts and capped at 10 unit size.
-Black Coach. About right, stats are decent and now its better then ever with winds of magic PD. This is actually the best rare unit. but another wound on its profile, loosing by 4 and removing the 200pts model from the board is not funny.
-Blood Knights. As for every cavalry in this edition they suffer a bit less then the other due to the amount of attacks they have but....VAMPIRE unit with I4!!!!....again....I4!!!! AND LD 7!!!!!!!!!!! so that swift reform u plan...is not happening every day.



Characters
-Vamp Lord. Is ok but still he needs one more wound, the crumble effect which now comes really easy, and with the best unit LD7 from blood knights u might as well call it a day if he dies. You can argue the same was in 7th...but now it only takes one Pit or Sun to make he's unit disappear and leave him solo on the board. Or even 40 archers since they fire in 2 ranks to concentrate his unit, non partial templates, non guessing war machines, the list goes on.
-Vamp hero. Good lad, great stats..Ld7!!!!?? seriously....7? He is a Vampire for the love of god, even skeletons joined by him loose reforms.
btw wight king has 9!
-Wight King. The best undead character hands down. He is a great fighter and he can live really long. Comes with gear,T5,3W and LD9...hell this is the only model in character selection after the necro that is auto included and for 75pts?????heavy armor shield.....
-necro. Best guy around, 2 spells and he is 70 pts undead caster. Thats about right. Now he rolls with up to 6pd which makes him even more of a default choise.


Last but not Least.

Magic phase with random PD in an army that rellys to hold the pathetic stat units alive long enough and win by CR has cripled the army. Master of Black arts is not even close to a magic phase. TK have a proper undead magic phase that can relly on, VC rolling on winds and praying to heal a unit back with overcosted core (and half of them not counting) is not even close to say VC are top tier.

so there u go, thats why VC are bottom tier atm.

S3bastian
17-07-2010, 14:48
Has 8th ed. kicked Vampire Counts in the fangs then?
My playing has been on hold for several years, but my friends who do play starting whining about Vampires being broken when the new army book came out. I don't quite see it myself.

lethlis
17-07-2010, 14:58
I am actually starting VC now. I like the new book.

What is dead is the old 1 die magic spam army. Now there are many builds that you can do. I see some nasty combinations.

Wight Kings, Necromancers on corpse carts. With two of them all enemy spells are at -2 to cast. Giving our units ASF and the like. Going to make my vampires built up for combat, since I do not need them to be a main dice generator anymore. Use all my dice for bound spells and invocations. Cause now we can make our bound spells stronger, they actually become a threat at higher levels. "I roll an 11 for my guys to have ASF, yea that includes my vampire lord" Heck I most likely will not buy hatred for my vamps, get it with ASF and corpse carts. Not to mention his high initiative.

theorox
17-07-2010, 15:04
Wow, hello there Vampires. I am Orcs&Goblins. We just switched places! xD

I think they will be workable, ill let you VC players work out how. :D

Theo

Djekar
17-07-2010, 16:12
You know, as a greenskin player, I heard many, many rants about how unplayable O&G were in 7th edition. I can tell you from experience that they are never as bad as the ranters would have you believe. In fact, even with a sub-par book and/or stupid rulings you can still have a good, challenging game (for *both* players) that is a lot of fun. Looking outside the box like the OP is a surefire way to begin to adjust. Bravo.

Stronginthearm
17-07-2010, 16:48
Wow, hello there Vampires. I am Orcs&Goblins. We just switched places! xD

I think they will be workable, ill let you VC players work out how. :D

Theo

however true it may be it is still anboying to show up on a vampire bemoaning thread and rub our noses in our theoretical fall from grace, anyway I can see a number of vampire armies getting shelved, I got into them for the massive conjuring hordes and now it appears that I should have invested with tombkings if I wanted never dying legions

lethlis
17-07-2010, 18:57
Nah now you just have to spend the points for them at the start. Which should not be hard considering that only zombies, ghouls and skeletons count towards that 25% cap.

Korraz
17-07-2010, 19:16
so there u go, thats why VC are bottom tier atm.

Wait, wat? :wtf:



so there u go, thats why VC are bottom tier atm.

Yes, still there.
Thank you, you just totally made my evening. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdQJY-S4zbU)

Undeads were always a little worse than living units. That's the god damned POINT about undead. They are worse, but you can raise them. And as a Vampire, you can raise them as you want. Vampires still have one of the most powerful magic phases in the game. They don't care about the winds of magic, they simply spit their own dice out.
And, by the way, you still have an army that doesn't give a single crap about psychology. In the edition, where panic is spread by a single guy dying.
Being a Vampire means "Buff your units, dude." God damnit, you have access to every lore but life! Rhuin on Zombies. Mindrazor on corpsecart. ASF Skeletons. Etheral Fire Dragon Vampire. And so on. Get a grip on yourself, tuck your pointy teeth in and summon some zombies up your opponent's face!

spiderman5z
17-07-2010, 19:22
hmmm... speed of light.... WS10 I10 zombies....

Techpriest
17-07-2010, 19:28
I think I am going to be a big fan of the Etheral Fire Drago Vampire sitting in a unit of Horde Skeletons! That is just going ot be insane. Along with the +1 Str and +1Toughness. And with the Forbidden Arts a Lord gets ALL the spells!

HeroFox
17-07-2010, 19:33
Not top tier, but no where near the bottom for sure.

senso
17-07-2010, 19:33
It'll be interesting to see how the new Tomb Kings book will address all (if any) of the nerfs VC got. I'm guessing that skeletons will get dramatically reduced in cost per model to sort out the good points Ovassilias was making, plus maybe a more stable magic phase and the ability to group scorpions into monstrous infantry.

Gaargod
17-07-2010, 19:52
I'm genuinely wondering if people are just influenced by 7th ed. Some guys still rate DoC as the top army and VC as somewhere near the top.

They're not.

Its been explained a dozen times. Ovassilias pointed out most of the problems for them, but...

Another main problem for DoC, VC and DE are that loads of the other races got stronger. Obviously they got worse, but when even empire state troops are actually a decent consideration... Its bad times.

VC aren't the worst army, but they are a lot, lot worse. Certainly closer to bottom than middle.

theorox
17-07-2010, 19:54
You know, as a greenskin player, I heard many, many rants about how unplayable O&G were in 7th edition. I can tell you from experience that they are never as bad as the ranters would have you believe. In fact, even with a sub-par book and/or stupid rulings you can still have a good, challenging game (for *both* players) that is a lot of fun. Looking outside the box like the OP is a surefire way to begin to adjust. Bravo.

I entirely agree, in fact, greenskins are my favourite army as well. They were far from unpklayable, that was mostly just whining about the top tier armies being overpowered.

Cheers

Theo

SideshowLucifer
18-07-2010, 00:46
I can't agree with VC being bottom at all. I'm doing much better with them then I am DEs currently in ths edition. I do agree the VC troops are a lot overcosted right now with the fear changes, but I tend to fight with them almost exactly as I did in 5th edition.

Its al about leading your army and sprting your army now. Lend your weaponskill to the giant block of 50 skeletons. One die spam your CC and your necro spells. So what if they end their casting. It forces the opponent to spend dispell dice half the time or let your army grow and get better. The vampires are the army supporters and the big weapons. Use their magic to buff, debuff, and demolish the enemy army.

We are quite capable of winning long drawn out combats if we're patient think during the magic phase.

Yrrdead
18-07-2010, 01:27
Just to preface, I play Vamps.

During 7th I played bunkerlord about 3 times. And never played it again due to how strong it was. After that I ran denied flank, dual blood knights and ghoulkin rush. Which actually was pretty fun.

Currently Vamps are nowhere close to the top and much closer to the bottom. This is due in part two main problems.

Magic - Vamps were able to dominate by overwhelming the magic phase. Successfully winning the war of attrition and/or SCR + Autobreak. This is gone in 8th. Magic has been equalized to a large extent. In the cases where you were self limiting (or comp'd) you got a much more even game. Now that is the case all the time. Except....

Shooting - You still don't shoot. Anyone who does has a "bit" of an edge. As everyone who is playing 8th knows, shooting has gotten a "minor" boost in effectiveness.

There are many other small things that also affect things but in general those two major issues are what is going to keep Vamps way down for the foreseeable future. When people's answer to winning with vampires involves magic of any sort (bound or otherwise) I just laugh. That is gone along with 7th.(To be fair I did get one early win by getting Purple Sun off.)


People will still have fun games with them. I still do. But as far as competition goes , well I'm working on my Skaven army for that. And my OnG for "fun" :D

Culsandar
18-07-2010, 01:52
After losing multiple combats by 1 because I caused multiple casualties but the VC player had big units, and then insane courage because you're outnumbered against fear?

Tough.

F'king.

S**t.

therat
18-07-2010, 01:53
anyway I can see a number of vampire armies getting shelved

I actually shelved mine after a few battles with the 7th edition book. Now that they've been brought down a few notches I don't feel so bad fielding them anymore. When I heard auto-break was going away I got excited. The two most OTT things about VC were auto-break and Invocation spam. The former is gone, and the latter has been effectively snuffed out.

What does that leave us with? As some have pointed out, ASF from corpse carts combined with high nish vamps makes for re-rolls without buying IH. Forbidden Lore gives us premium access to the new spells, I believe VC are one of 5 with such an option (on standard characters). The Staff of Damnation has become particularly good as well.

I'm glad my counts have been weakened. Now I can send my killy vamp out with impunity. They are, however, certainly not weakened to the point that they have become low-tier.

shartmatau
18-07-2010, 02:05
i dont think vampires got any worse in 8th. They play different than before but not worse at all. The biggest change is that vampire players have to think now just like the rest of us. Instead of spamming spells, waiting for the enemy to whiff some attacks and lose to being outnumbered; vampire players now have to use actual tactics and yes your army will probably be different than what you played before but so is almost every other army.

my friend has played a bunch of games with his new adjusted vampires and has yet to lose. What did he do to make such a seamless transition to 8th, well he figured out a solid core of big units, he pays to have a better than average power dice pool, and he uses spells to de-buff the enemy and buff his own units. it works very well.

Asmodai48
18-07-2010, 02:14
Rofl at calls they are bottom tier.

r3flexx
18-07-2010, 02:22
I just want to say, that as a DE player I laugh at the Helm of Commandment. Word of Pain anyone? Hello WS1 Vampire and hello WS1 army!

Anyways, I'm disappointed that VC got that much of a nerf. I chose the DE because they were worse than VC. Now that they are better I feel like I lost some of the fun challenge I had before in 7th. Oh well, hopefully VC can find a powerful build somehow.

SideshowLucifer
18-07-2010, 03:38
Maybe I need to see how your playing DE then. My Vamps are doing much better then my DE's are. Combats last too long and distance is closed too quickly for my DE's strengths to play a big role.

eyescrossed
18-07-2010, 11:48
I just want to say, that as a DE player I laugh at the Helm of Commandment. Word of Pain anyone? Hello WS1 Vampire and hello WS1 army!
I don't see how that works.

Mullitron
18-07-2010, 12:42
Vampire counts are not now a bottom tier army, they may no longer be considered one of the super powerful lists but their still strong. As already said you can no longer single dice spam spells to keep your units alive until your opponent rolls bad, looses the combat and auto runs. The enemy bsb is also going to create problems, but it also means vampire players have a new stratagy to work on. The old tactics are not as viable as before but its still early days and new tactics and list compositions are still being worked on.

Iam loving the 6+ ward save on skelies now tho :)

SideshowLucifer
18-07-2010, 15:04
Why can you no longer single die spam? It's exactly the tactic I use. 3+ is a 50% chance I'm successful and if I fail, I move on to the next necro. When I get lower on PD, I use Death Magic to help refill the pool.

The Flaming Hand
18-07-2010, 16:41
They are no bottom tier army, skeletons may suck, but only if unsupported. Like always we have to rely on characters. Use wyssans wildform and the helm of commandment on them and they are Ws 6 and S and T 4, corpse cart bound spell for always strike first etc. And my vampire lord kicks ass with a potential for up to 20 wounds. (Forbidden lore, red fury, Sword of bloodshed, flayed hauberk.) Put him in a unit of 30 grave guard with the drakenhof banner and use savage beast of horros before combat. This character alone has 10 attacks at S8 and may get more from red fury. I bet not many armies can have characters like that.

I have not yet played a game in 8th edition, but they don't seem that terrible.