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Selsaral
27-05-2005, 13:53
So according to the rulebook there is both soft (-1 to hit) and hard (-2 cover) cover in the game. Soft cover is described as things like 'hedges, trees, etc' and hard cover is described as 'a rock, standing at the corner of a building, standing at a window in a building'.

So what are the particulars here? If a unit is standing behind a hedge, but one model in the unit is exposed, does any of the unit get the cover bonus?

If the shooting unit are skirmishers, then depending on the orientation of all the models, some in the unit might be taking a cover penalty and some may not, eh?

Large targets can get cover just like all the rest, right? So a Lord of Change standing at the corner of a building gets hard cover eh?

And how about hills? How about a tall, sloping hill? If a model is standing on the other side, and only his head is exposed to a shooter, does he get cover?

Arnizipal
27-05-2005, 14:16
So what are the particulars here? If a unit is standing behind a hedge, but one model in the unit is exposed, does any of the unit get the cover bonus?

The way we play it, if 50% or more of the unit is behind the object that gives cover, the whole unit gets cover. So in your example the unit would get cover.



If the shooting unit are skirmishers, then depending on the orientation of all the models, some in the unit might be taking a cover penalty and some may not, eh?

In this case yes, though skirmisher units are usually too small to be able to spread out enough so some of them can fire at their target without a cover penalty.



Large targets can get cover just like all the rest, right? So a Lord of Change standing at the corner of a building gets hard cover eh?

This depends on the circumstances. If the house the LoC is standing next to is large enough to realistically give him cover, then it's ok. On the other hand, a LoC trying to take soft cover from a hedge that only reaches to its knees is a bit silly, so enemies would receive no penatly for fireing at it.


And how about hills? How about a tall, sloping hill? If a model is standing on the other side, and only his head is exposed to a shooter, does he get cover?
Yep. You can see him, so you can shoot at him, but more than 50% of the model is covered by the hill, so you'll get a -2 penalty on your BS.

Selsaral
27-05-2005, 14:36
The way we play it, if 50% or more of the unit is behind the object that gives cover, the whole unit gets cover. So in your example the unit would get cover.


This makes sense, but is this in the rules anywhere? My gaming group can't find it, and without such a powerful precedent, the 50% rule becomes completely arbitrary. And as you might guess, although 50% appears to be reasonable, if you're shooting at them it suddenly isn't quite as obviously reasonable.



In this case yes, though skirmisher units are usually too small to be able to spread out enough so some of them can fire at their target without a cover penalty.


Cool. Big units of skinks have been having this issue crop up quite a bit in our battles.



This depends on the circumstances. If the house the LoC is standing next to is large enough to realistically give him cover, then it's ok. On the other hand, a LoC trying to take soft cover from a hedge that only reaches to its knees is a bit silly, so enemies would receive no penatly for fireing at it.


But are there rules for any of this? We are tainted by playing a lot of 2nd ed 40k. So that's where our assumptions of cover come from. But in 6th ed fantasy battle, none of this is spelled out. It doesn't say that you need to be within 2" of the cover, that 50% of the model must be obscured, that the cover must be large enough to completely conceal the model, that part of the base must be concealed etc.




Yep. You can see him, so you can shoot at him, but more than 50% of the model is covered by the hill, so you'll get a -2 penalty on your BS.

This makes great sense to me, but is there a rule for this 50% detail?

Festus
27-05-2005, 15:59
Hi

And how about hills? How about a tall, sloping hill? If a model is standing on the other side, and only his head is exposed to a shooter, does he get cover?
Nope, negative: Hills are higher than everything else (at least all the people I play with play like this). It is a convention of course: If you made a hill to scale, you wouldn't be able to look over it yourself, let alone your little minis...

Greetings
festus

Selsaral
27-05-2005, 16:17
Hi

Nope, negative: Hills are higher than everything else (at least all the people I play with play like this). It is a convention of course: If you made a hill to scale, you wouldn't be able to look over it yourself, let alone your little minis...

Greetings
festus

Sorry, I just didn't understand this. Cover means that there is something in between the shooter and the target. If you are standing on the other side of a hill from the shooter, so that the hump of the hill conceals most of the line of sight, that won't count as cover? How is it any different from standing on flat ground and having a big rock (of the exact same size as the hump of our hill) in between?

Arnizipal
27-05-2005, 17:15
I dug up the ol' rulebook and here's what I came up with:

Who can shoot and Line Of Sight: p59

second last paragraph
Hedges and walls block line of sight over level ground. However, a model placed directly behind and touching the obstacle is assumed to be able to see and shoot over the obstacle, with head and shoulders clearly visible. Such a model can shoot but also be seen and shot at.


With a bit of goodwill you can deduct from this that a model should be covered at least until the shoulders before it can claim any sort of cover. I agree it's not much to go on. Cover rules are not as detailed in fantasy as they are in 40k.

Selsaral
27-05-2005, 20:12
With a bit of goodwill you can deduct from this that a model should be covered at least until the shoulders before it can claim any sort of cover. I agree it's not much to go on. Cover rules are not as detailed in fantasy as they are in 40k.

This would seem to be contrary to the idea that standing at the corner of a building provides hard cover.

Goodwill is definitely required here though hehe.

Major Defense
27-05-2005, 20:55
This thread reminds me to go find that Q&A where they say that a single model in a unit standing outside of cover will blow cover for the whole unit. Unfortunately I don't have time to look now so if anyone knows where it is then please post a link to the PDF. Otherwise, check back here later because I will eventually find it.

Crazy Harborc
27-05-2005, 23:43
Well, until this thread said other wise, I thought most players did/do it the way I know about. Minies behind cover are, minies in the same unit who are not behind cover aren't. Minies not behind cover will likely be hit first. Such is fate, don't duck or hide well and you are more likely to get shot even when all the rest of your squad/unit is behind cover.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-05-2005, 11:01
Sorry, I just didn't understand this. Cover means that there is something in between the shooter and the target. If you are standing on the other side of a hill from the shooter, so that the hump of the hill conceals most of the line of sight, that won't count as cover? How is it any different from standing on flat ground and having a big rock (of the exact same size as the hump of our hill) in between?


The models won't be in cover, because LoS is blocked to them, so you couldn't shoot at them at all.

Hills are commonly played as if they block LoS to anything that but a large target.

The terrain rules are purposely not very detailed in Warhammer, leaving a lot up to the players to agree on.

Festus
28-05-2005, 12:09
Well, the hill issue is easily solved with the rulebook:

Any obstacle blocks LoS over open ground...

Festus

Griefbringer
28-05-2005, 14:29
Usually it is recommended to go through the terrain on the table before the game with your opponent, and agree about what piece of terrain gives what degree of cover.

Crazy Harborc
29-05-2005, 23:35
Before most games I'll discuss the field with my opponent(s). If he/they don't starts the conversation, I will. We have always played that hills are higher than large objects (dragons), higher than forests, etc.

Selsaral
01-06-2005, 16:57
Well, the hill issue is easily solved with the rulebook:

Any obstacle blocks LoS over open ground...

Festus

I guess the issue I am getting at is specific to the types of terrain pieces we use. We have some circular chunks of terrain about a centimeter thick of various radii that we stack up to make hills of various shapes and sizes. We agree beforehand that one level of hill doesn't block line of sight (but provides cover), while two levels block line of sight for a normal-sized model. Four levels blocks line of sight for a large target.

This worked fine with a few of the gamers I play with, but one immediately objected to the hill providing any cover at all. I said we should go outside and both of us stand on different parts of a hill and I could demonstrate how line of sight isn't blocked, but that a large portion of the target is blocked and therefore should quality as cover.

Do any of you guys use similar terrain pieces for hills, and if so what rules for cover do you use for it?

Major Defense
01-06-2005, 18:26
This thread reminds me to go find that Q&A where they say that a single model in a unit standing outside of cover will blow cover for the whole unit. Unfortunately I don't have time to look now so if anyone knows where it is then please post a link to the PDF. Otherwise, check back here later because I will eventually find it.

Aha! Found it...

http://www.geocities.com/mi_whplayers/faqs/rules_faq.txt

Q. A skirmishing unit with two models outside of the woods, and the
rest in the woods are shot at by a unit of archers. Does the
skirmishing unit count as being in soft cover?

A. No. Having part of your unit out of cover is like being a little bit
pregnant. Either you're completely in cover or you're not. If the unit
shooting has line of sight to any models that aren't in cover, the
unit being shot at can be targeted without the cover penalty. The
same answer would apply if the situation involved a ranked unit with
the front rank outside of the woods and the remainder of the unit
inside of the woods.
S. Rulebook page 62 / Direwolf FAQ Council Interpretation

McMullet
02-06-2005, 09:45
Think about hills in real life - they are generally at least 50 metres tall. Even a small hill blocks line of sight to anything in the game, even dragons and giants.


So what are the particulars here? If a unit is standing behind a hedge, but one model in the unit is exposed, does any of the unit get the cover bonus?

We usually play that you can elect to shoot at the whole unit, but with a cover penalty, or shoot at those in the open ONLY without the modifier. This means that if 1 model out of 10 is in cover, you can still choose to shoot at 9 of them without a modifier, but can't kill the one in cover; if 9 are in cover, you can try and snipe the one guy in the open, but will more likely want to target the whole unit with a modifier. It's not in the BRB, but it works pretty well.

mageith
02-06-2005, 14:10
Well, the hill issue is easily solved with the rulebook:

Any obstacle blocks LoS over open ground...

Festus

"Perhaps the easiest way of checking what a model can see is to get down over the table and take a model's eye view...." (59)

Nope, the rulebook is hardly the way, in this case.

Besides 'obstacle' is both a paraphrase and a technical term in your statement.

Discussion is the preferred way and the only sanctioned way. Irritating but true.

For hills, we use actual LOS. We call them hills but we just consider them rises in the battlefield. In fact, for the most part, this interpretation happens naturally with no house rule whatsover.

Bottom line, is that most of these questions can't be proved by the rulebook.

Ith

mageith
02-06-2005, 14:32
I guess the issue I am getting at is specific to the types of terrain pieces we use. We have some circular chunks of terrain about a centimeter thick of various radii that we stack up to make hills of various shapes and sizes. We agree beforehand that one level of hill doesn't block line of sight (but provides cover), while two levels block line of sight for a normal-sized model. Four levels blocks line of sight for a large target.

If I had hills like that, I'd use your rule.



This worked fine with a few of the gamers I play with, but one immediately objected to the hill providing any cover at all.

Line of Sight and Cover are different things. I don't think we provide cover for models that we can actually see behind a hill.

Ith