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Karl MkVI
18-07-2010, 19:19
ok friends, fairly simple one;

why, in Soul Hunter, are there so many flashbacks to the Night Lords' actions at Terra, when in all fluff up until this book, they weren't there at all? Bill King's story, Collected Visions, Index Astartes... they simply weren't at Terra!! as far as i know, anyway. so, what changed?

let 'em rip, fellow Warseers.

and thanks in advance! :D

FabricatorGeneralMike
18-07-2010, 19:24
ok friends, fairly simple one;

why, in Soul Hunter, are there so many flashbacks to the Night Lords' actions at Terra, when in all fluff up until this book, they weren't there at all? Bill King's story, Collected Visions, Index Astartes... they simply weren't at Terra!! as far as i know, anyway. so, what changed?

let 'em rip, fellow Warseers.

and thanks in advance! :D



Well.... just because the whole Legion wasn't there doesn't mean that some NL where not there. I think a few must of been there, after all this was the whole point of the heresy wasn't it?

Unless the point of the heresy is to sell as many books as possible... ;)

Craftworld
18-07-2010, 19:40
I was always under the impression that some of each of the traitor Legions were present at the siege of Terra.

Perhaps it's a retcon. :confused:

Dead.Blue.Clown
18-07-2010, 19:59
so, what changed?


More information came to light, as we get 800 times more detail about the Heresy than before. Most of the Legion wasn't there. Some of them were. The Legions weren't entirely unified entities - forces of that size needed to split up, if they were actually going to conquer the galaxy.

Karl MkVI
18-07-2010, 20:27
More information came to light, as we get 800 times more detail about the Heresy than before. Most of the Legion wasn't there. Some of them were. The Legions weren't entirely unified entities - forces of that size needed to split up, if they were actually going to conquer the galaxy.

I guess i really should have just P.M'd you!! :) so, if you don't mind me asking; when you say new information came to light, do you mean you unearthed some more info, or a 'decision was made to bring it to light', as it were (i.e: things get changed over time)?

cheers

Lothlanathorian
18-07-2010, 20:43
I think it would be safe to assume that they didn't find Jervis Johnson's lost Journal of the Astartes Civil War and they are adding tweaks and changing things.

And, as has been stated, it is very likely that individual units may have been on Terra as not an entire Legion would be at one place at one time. We already have evidence of squads from one Legion being with another away from their own or equiries being sent to other Legions with messages and such and having a small force to occompany them.

Gimp
18-07-2010, 20:48
As far as i know every traitor Legion was represented in some way at the Siege.

Some in more numbers than others.

Karl MkVI
18-07-2010, 20:52
I think it would be safe to assume that they didn't find Jervis Johnson's lost Journal of the Astartes Civil War and they are adding tweaks and changing things.



you're right, that was a pretty stupid question... :D

Craftworld
18-07-2010, 21:13
More information came to light, as we get 800 times more detail about the Heresy than before. Most of the Legion wasn't there. Some of them were. The Legions weren't entirely unified entities - forces of that size needed to split up, if they were actually going to conquer the galaxy.

I just wanted to say Aaron, that the dreadnought battle was a pretty fantastic part of Soul Hunter; speaking of Night Lords on Terra.

When they play-out their original battle upon Terra, it gave me chills up my spine it was so awesome. It was such a great moment that even Uzas took notice. :p

Definitely one of my favorite parts.

Dead.Blue.Clown
18-07-2010, 21:33
I guess i really should have just P.M'd you!! :) so, if you don't mind me asking; when you say new information came to light, do you mean you unearthed some more info, or a 'decision was made to bring it to light', as it were (i.e: things get changed over time)?

cheers

Well, look at it this way.

"After Isstvan/Istvaan, the Night Lords went to a couple of star systems and headbutted the Dark Angels for 7 years."

And that's it. That's, like, all the information there was. So adding to it isn't really a retcon, it's just... well, adding to it. Because if nothing was added to it, it'd stay insignificant and unconvincing.

Karl MkVI
18-07-2010, 22:09
Well, look at it this way.

"After Isstvan/Istvaan, the Night Lords went to a couple of star systems and headbutted the Dark Angels for 7 years."

And that's it. That's, like, all the information there was. So adding to it isn't really a retcon, it's just... well, adding to it. Because if nothing was added to it, it'd stay insignificant and unconvincing.

cool!! don't get me wrong; I'm all for expansion/changes, and retconning if it seems necessary (cue 40k veterans getting out the torches :)). not that this would be a retcon, as you say. looking forward to new info!

and, might I ask; are you setting yourself up for some Night Lords heresy action. I'm not asking if you'll do it; you know as well as we all do that you'll give in :D; just wondering if this is 'signs of you laying groundwork'..? e.g: trying to make sure you get a piece of the writing action when the Siege comes along!! ;)

speaking of which, Helsreach is great btw, and I think much of its writing style would work immensely well for the Siege of Terra. so much of it is just so 'personal' for the defenders; the introverted perspective would just make brilliant reading for the Siege. and by this, i mean the way that we see almost nothing of what is going on anywhere else. I don't think said style would work as an exclusive style for the SoT; there's too much pivotal stuff going on all over the place. but such personal accounts would definitely have their place, for sure. I mean to say; imagine a companion piece to Helsrech was written, detailing the Armageddon conflict as a whole, then meshed into the book. I know that defies the point, but you see what I mean I'm sure.

imagine for example, dear Warseers: an enormous account of the siege, half of it written in the Helsreach style, with very personal perspectives from characters such as Sanguinius, Dorn, Fulgrim, even Angron (!!), plenty of marines, those peeps at Eternity Wall and Lions' Gate, civilians, etc, and then the other half meshed in between, accounting for the conflict as a whole. like that; personal, and yet huge. like the siege of Minas Tirith in the film, only bigger. much bigger. with more characters. oh and titan crews, i forgot them. and Perturabo taking down the walls. and Ka'Bandha, musing. ok maybe not musing. but definitely killing. and the webway battles. and Horus being the omniscient bad guy in space. and maybe Garro? ok im ranting now. stop Karl. seriously... ok I'm done. and Sigismund. definitely Sigismund. now I'm done... Loken?

ooh, also, I typed this near the beginning, before I began my geek-rant:

"not to mention, of all the BL writers, your grasp of large-scale battles is amongst the very best. can't wait for November's first A.D-B foray into Heresy territory!"

there; some praise for you. take it or leave it :)

Lord Lorne Walkier
18-07-2010, 22:52
I would not ask A-DB about Loken. He might loose it an go quackers on you @$$.

I must say though i have thought about trying to start a message campain to get him spill the beans about Tarvits.

As to the NL's on Terra. This makes more since to me then Dorn including them as part of the Istavaan V strike force. I wish / doubt A-DB would clear this up for me.

A Shadow
18-07-2010, 23:24
My understanding is that the Night Lords remained seperate from the other Legions and waged a seperate campaign in the Eastern Fringes.

Londinium
18-07-2010, 23:30
I always imagined the Night Lords being at Istvaan V was simply a matter of stretched forces. The Big E's forces were scattered all over the galaxy at the time that Horus laid down his marker. Dorn just had to cobble together whatever was left and try to form some kind of strike force against Horus. At this time Konrad had gone bonkers but he hadn't thrown his lot in with Horus. He was off destroying his home planet and generally being emotionally screwy. Maybe Dorn reasoned that Curze may want some form of redemption or that Curze still retained his loyalty to the Emperor beyond his insanity. Given the dire straights facing him, he probably took a calculated gamble to attempt to use the Night Lords.

As far as I recall theres never been any background about Horus trying to turn the Night Haunter to his side. In the old background Konrad barely even fought for Horus beyond Istvaan (screw the new spelling) he just rampaged across the galaxy in a genocidal fury before coming to rest at Tsalgulsa (sp) some time in the immediate aftermath/time period of the Heresy and then was assassinated. So while he had gone off the deep end at this time, theres also little evidence of his Horus allegiance either. This being said I still prefer some of the old fluff, the idea of Fulgrim racing to Istvaan and being corrupted is still far better than slow daemon possession/knowing instigator of Istvaan/essentially Horus' lieutenant, so maybe I'm adhering to the old stuff too much.

ADB will probably come along and destroy all what I've just said though :p

Grimbad
18-07-2010, 23:36
Well, look at it this way.

"After Isstvan/Istvaan, the Night Lords...headbutted the Dark Angels for 7 years."


So that's how they got wings on their helmets!

Karl MkVI
19-07-2010, 23:25
I would not ask A-DB about Loken. He might loose it an go quackers on you @$$.

I must say though i have thought about trying to start a message campain to get him spill the beans about Tarvits.

As to the NL's on Terra. This makes more since to me then Dorn including them as part of the Istavaan V strike force. I wish / doubt A-DB would clear this up for me.

true, but Dorn sends the Word Bearers as well, and even after being told by Fulgrim that Lorgar has turned, Ferrus apparently isnt too worried about having them around...! call it brotherly trust or whatever, but that one seems rather odd to me!! :)

Londinium
20-07-2010, 12:40
true, but Dorn sends the Word Bearers as well, and even after being told by Fulgrim that Lorgar has turned, Ferrus apparently isnt too worried about having them around...! call it brotherly trust or whatever, but that one seems rather odd to me!! :)

When does Fulgrim tell Dorn that Lorgar has turned? as far as I'm aware the last canonical pre Heresy meeting between Dorn and Fulgrim is when Night Haunter flips out? I can't even remember Fulgrim meeting Lorgar in the period running up to the Heresy. Fulgrim's around Horus, Manus, an Eldar Maiden World, Laeran and Nikaea before Istvaan and Lorgar is off with Russ and Magnus for a while. Dorn I assume is closer to Terra.

Corax
20-07-2010, 13:27
My understanding (and I could be wrong or it could have changed) was that after Istvaan the NLs went off and bombed Nastromo to smithereens, then went off to a dark corner to sulk and cut themselves, thus taking no further part in the Heresy. Still it stands to reason that a Legion that had largely slipped the leash of its Primarch might not all do what he told them to anyway, and that some of them might find their way to Terra for the Big Dance.

Karl MkVI
20-07-2010, 19:11
When does Fulgrim tell Dorn that Lorgar has turned? as far as I'm aware the last canonical pre Heresy meeting between Dorn and Fulgrim is when Night Haunter flips out? I can't even remember Fulgrim meeting Lorgar in the period running up to the Heresy. Fulgrim's around Horus, Manus, an Eldar Maiden World, Laeran and Nikaea before Istvaan and Lorgar is off with Russ and Magnus for a while. Dorn I assume is closer to Terra.

apologies; I wasn't clear. what i meant was, Fulgrim tells Ferrus that Lorgar has turned, prior to Isstvan V (during their showdown aboard Ferrus' ship). I forget the ship's name (the Ferrum? :)). however, it would seem that Ferrus refused to even consider this, even after seeing the depth of the treachery.

Londinium
20-07-2010, 21:33
apologies; I wasn't clear. what i meant was, Fulgrim tells Ferrus that Lorgar has turned, prior to Isstvan V (during their showdown aboard Ferrus' ship). I forget the ship's name (the Ferrum? :)). however, it would seem that Ferrus refused to even consider this, even after seeing the depth of the treachery.

Ah yes now I remember, it's been so long since I read Fulgrim. When Fulgrim tries to turn Manus and ends up having to munch his way through a bunch of Gorgons and then crippling Manus. Fulgrim really is a beast at Primarch vs Primarch combat it would seem.

A Shadow
21-07-2010, 06:23
The Primarchs considered Lorgar to be the most loyal of all of them and so the notion that he had turned would have seemed ridiculous.

And Fulgrim technically didn't kill any Gorgons, the Phoneix Guard did while he attacked Ferrus.