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View Full Version : "It's not a shooting attack; it's a MAGICAL VORTEX!"



some_scrub
19-07-2010, 02:58
I'm sure there are already a bunch of threads about this, but I can't find anything that addresses my specific questions so I'll ask them here:

1) Do you get "Look Out, Sir!" against a magical vortex? I've looked and I think it'd be good for the game, but it doesn't seem like RAW it says anywhere that you do.

2) There's a very bizarre sentence on page 31 in the description of magical vortices which says "If a magical vortex ever ends its move over a unit, place it 1" beyond the unit in the direction it was moving." That "bonus move" seems like it opens up a huge can of worms. Does the "bonus move" keep going? Or can a purple sun large template keep on going and going if shot from an army's flank. Also, if it barely clips the first few models in a unit and you have to keep moving it, does it count as getting all the other models in the unit that you move it over during the "bonus move" ?

Paraelix
19-07-2010, 05:20
It keeps on keeping on... Moving that is... Same as how Fleeing units keep bouncing along until they fit.

some_scrub
19-07-2010, 06:41
Ok, cool. That makes flank shots with Purple Sun that much more devastating. There's nothing special that happens if you walk through a vortex during your movement phase, right (other than being extremely likely to get swallowed up next turn)?

I still haven't seen any reason why people are claiming LO,S! against magic, although my Dwarf characters would sure love to start getting them.

Yrrdead
19-07-2010, 06:56
Hmm not sure that I would willing move my own units into contact with a vortex of killydeath. In the case of Purple Sun no mention in the spell description makes me think that you are safe if you move over it.

What makes you think that?

Kalandros
19-07-2010, 07:46
The test/damage part of the Vortex spell says that when it moves over. So models moving under it arent affected, by RAW.

Its the Vortex that has to do the moving part.

Ramius4
19-07-2010, 07:54
I'm sure there are already a bunch of threads about this, but I can't find anything that addresses my specific questions so I'll ask them here:

1) Do you get "Look Out, Sir!" against a magical vortex? I've looked and I think it'd be good for the game, but it doesn't seem like RAW it says anywhere that you do.

Yes you do. Magic follows the shooting rules for the distribution of hits, etc. Magical Vortexes use a template. Hence, you get Look out sir.

2) There's a very bizarre sentence on page 31 in the description of magical vortices which says "If a magical vortex ever ends its move over a unit, place it 1" beyond the unit in the direction it was moving." That "bonus move" seems like it opens up a huge can of worms. Does the "bonus move" keep going? Or can a purple sun large template keep on going and going if shot from an army's flank. Also, if it barely clips the first few models in a unit and you have to keep moving it, does it count as getting all the other models in the unit that you move it over during the "bonus move" ?

Of course it would. It doesn't matter when something moves over the template, only that it does.



Hope that helps.

Yrrdead
19-07-2010, 08:08
Not to nitpick but I'm not seeing the part where it only does damage when it moves. (It being the sun) Could some kind sir direct me to a specific section.

The only part I see in the spell description in regards to tests/dying is a single sentence.

"...Any Model touched by the template must pass an Initiative test or be slain outright with no saves of any kind allowed..."

There is no mention about it only forcing those tests when it moves.

In fact I had a game where my opponent used the Heavens "Force Staff"(Wind Blast) to push my unit into contact with the Purple Sun that I had cast. I guess we did that wrong.

Blekinge
19-07-2010, 08:12
It keeps on keeping on... Moving that is... Same as how Fleeing units keep bouncing along until they fit.

Why? Please provide a page number or a quote supporting your interpretation. The rules just say "place it 1" beyond". Not move it until it is 1" beyond.

Thanatos_elNyx
19-07-2010, 09:37
Blekinge is correct.

The rules says to place it 1" beyond if it ever ends its move over a unit.

So if it ends on Unit A, place it 1" beyond means it touchs Unit B;
So either you leave it there (as it hasn't ended its move over a unit, it was placed there not moved)
OR
You could possibly argue that you place it 1" beyond Unit B as well (possibly onto Unit C) which means Unit B isn't hit (beyond the few models that were touched when the template was first placed beyond Unit A)

some_scrub
19-07-2010, 14:48
Yes you do. Magic follows the shooting rules for the distribution of hits, etc. Magical Vortexes use a template. Hence, you get Look out sir.


Uh, what? Can you provide page numbers for all of that? I am aware that Magical vortexes use a template. I am not aware where it says "Magic follows the shooting rules for distribution of hits" in any way that could be applied to a magical vortex.

Another point to consider: the section on characters and templates (which concerns what to do with monstrous mounts) specifically mentions templates from spells and shooting. The words "spell" and "magic" never appear on any page that contains the rules for "Look out, Sir!"

As far as the other stuff... I think we come into the classic GW rules problem: they don't qualify stuff properly. The spell reads like a set of instructions of which "Any model hit by the template must pass an I test..." is the step following the "Move the template" step. While taken out of context it seems to suggest that you have to check whenever any model touches the template, I'm not entirely convinced that's the right interpretation, but it seems most consistent with the RAW.

theman151
19-07-2010, 14:58
"Yes you do. Magic follows the shooting rules for the distribution of hits, etc. Magical Vortexes use a template. Hence, you get Look out sir."

This is wrong. Only Magic misssles are distributed as shooting unless the spells says so specifically. Read the Magic section at the start of the new book.

Thanatos_elNyx
19-07-2010, 15:25
I can't find anything in the Magic section that mentions distributing hits like Shooting.

As for Look Out Sir!, it seems from the rule that it only works against Shooting!

shelfunit.
19-07-2010, 15:33
Something similar to this:

As it says:"if it ever ends its move over a unit, place it 1" beyond the unit in the direction it was moving." does this mean all the intervening models inbetween are hit by the template or that just the models touched at the end of the vortex's move? also how is it resolved if this takes the vortex off the board?

Sorry if these are obvious, but I can't seem to nail down the pages today...

some_scrub
20-07-2010, 00:17
[QUOTE=shelfunit.;4836610" does this mean all the intervening models inbetween are hit by the template or that just the models touched at the end of the vortex's move? also how is it resolved if this takes the vortex off the board?
[/QUOTE]

I don't think the answers to these questions are obvious at all. Especially when you consider the possibility that the bonus move puts it in another illegal position.

Honestly, I can't see a really compelling argument one way or another. How have other people been playing this part.

Also, is the LO,S! officially dead? I've noticed people invoking it on lots of other threads, so I though there would be more... resistance.

Texhnolyze
20-07-2010, 10:19
regarding vortex it says something like this

.. if its on top of a unit place it 1" beyond... it says PLACE not MOVE

This is NOT a move in regard to the spell, it is a RELOCATION...
the spell has already ended, you are just relocating its final position according to the rules, and you just repeat the relocation until its not on top of a unit.

my 0,02$

BrotherNefarius
20-07-2010, 20:24
I think that the simple reason for the 'move template 1" beyond unit' is simply for ease of play, so that you dont have to actually put the template on the models until next turn...

With this in mind, i think that any bending of the rules to make extra hits is ridiculous. The spell pops on the unit, makes its hits and then you place it in the same direction 1" away from the unit. If it happens to be on another unit, discuss with your adversary where it should be placed next, either beyond the next unit, or the nearest gap (not necessarily in the direction of the spell).

And no, it won't cause any additional hits for moving in any way.

Casshole
21-07-2010, 00:12
The first reference of Lo,S is to templates and not necessarily shooting- found in the Champion section.

Although the character section says shooting, it also says it works exactly like the previously referenced rule.

Clear to me that Purple sun is a template, and will therefore allow LO,S. Things without a template and are not shooting- ie the dwellers bellow, would not allow one.

AS for the extra movement, I would just picture the rest of the unit moving aside and scrunchingtogether to avoid the hits, likewise any other unit it might clip when it is placed is similarly cringing on the edge, waiting for the infernal portal to move. No need to make this part of the spell even more rediculous through creative rule interprtation.

However, when a unit moves into the sun, they would need to test against it. Nothing in the Purple sun wording indicates tat in needs to move to kill, it just says models touched by it will need to make that save. Gives the spell more uses without actually abusing a rules glitch.

some_scrub
21-07-2010, 04:05
The first reference of Lo,S is to templates and not necessarily shooting- found in the Champion section.

Uh. Sort of? What it actually says is this: "If a champion is hit by a template as described above..." so we look above where it says "The only exception to this are shooting attacks that do not use the normal shooting rules" like templates..."Fortunately in these cases" you are allowed a LO,S! roll (see below)...

It seems pretty clear, to me at least, that the LO,S! rule is under the "Champions and Shooting" section which specifically mentions shooting and only shooting; magic is notably absent and there isn't any scope to suggest that the templates in question are general templates. Not only that, but the box specifically refers to "hits" multiple times.

As far as the weird part of the Magical Vortex rules, I think that anything that ends under the template after the bonus move is touched by the template. The dudes cringing makes a) no sense and b) isn't in the rules.

As far as the people in the intermediate points being hit, it's pretty vague and could plausibly go either way.

TAW
21-07-2010, 04:31
Im a little confused, are people implying that the template drags along it's course of scatter and effects anything in that scatter range? Cause that doesnt sound right. It scatters and then you look to see what's under the template. templates dont drag along their scatter and count the models that they pass over...... or am I getting what people are saying wrong?
Cause that would mean that the first time you place it it could have a line of 30 inchs of a remove model spell. Which seems wrong.

stripsteak
21-07-2010, 07:27
Im a little confused, are people implying that the template drags along it's course of scatter and effects anything in that scatter range? Cause that doesnt sound right. It scatters and then you look to see what's under the template. templates dont drag along their scatter and count the models that they pass over...... or am I getting what people are saying wrong?
Cause that would mean that the first time you place it it could have a line of 30 inchs of a remove model spell. Which seems wrong.

the scatter rules say to move the template and then resolve the effects but don't cover how to resolve the effects since that is different dependent on the source of the template. the effects of the purple sun is to cause an initiative test in any model touched by the template, touched past tense not touching. If it only functioned at the end of the move it couldn't effect anything since it can't end its move on a unit.

for reference stone throwers and flame cannons specify models under the template. different specification on how to resolve hits.

Poseidal
21-07-2010, 08:15
I don't have access to my rulebook right now but...

IIRC: look in the shooting section, I seem to recall it either says it applies to wounds caused in magic or goes so far to say any wounds caused outside combat use the shooting rules for allocation.

Can someone check this section in case i misremember?

TAW
21-07-2010, 11:01
the scatter rules say to move the template and then resolve the effects but don't cover how to resolve the effects since that is different dependent on the source of the template. the effects of the purple sun is to cause an initiative test in any model touched by the template, touched past tense not touching. If it only functioned at the end of the move it couldn't effect anything since it can't end its move on a unit.

for reference stone throwers and flame cannons specify models under the template. different specification on how to resolve hits.

Hm... so you could kill an entire saurus based army with a good artillery die roll of a 10 which would = 30. And that could go through 6 or 7 units of initiative 1 units. Killer, way strong. Why can't it be resolved on where it scatters and then at the end of the phase it's moved? Technically once it scatters it isn't finished moving thats just the models under it's effect.

Scatter states that it's resolved at the end of the scatter, not the end of the move.....that kinda implied to me scatter see what's underneath and then resolve. and finish. At which point the template is moved out 1 inch from the unit.

And what does touching classify as then? If the other ones state models underneath the template what does "touching" refer to? It'd be a little silly if you actually had to touch the opponents models with you template. hahahaha.

Zaustus
21-07-2010, 11:57
@ the folks claiming template spells don't allow LOS:

The LOS rule on p.93 specifically describes a champion being hit by a shooting template, this much is true. However, on p.36 under "Spell Resolution," it says to refer to the shooting phase instructions to resolve spells that inflict hits or wounds.

In the shooting rules, on p.42 in the box-out "Resolving Unusual Attacks," it says "several circumstances... inflict hits upon an enemy -- spells being an obvious example." It goes on to say "Such hits are resolved using steps 4, 5 and 6 of the rules for shooting attacks. The only exceptions are hits caused by close combat attacks...."

So this silly argument that only Magic Missiles work like shooting is bunk. Magic templates work just like shooting templates, and champions/characters get Look Out Sir against them.

Lhel
21-07-2010, 12:08
@ the folks claiming template spells don't allow LOS:

The LOS rule on p.93 specifically describes a champion being hit by a shooting template, this much is true. However, on p.36 under "Spell Resolution," it says to refer to the shooting phase instructions to resolve spells that inflict hits or wounds.

In the shooting rules, on p.42 in the box-out "Resolving Unusual Attacks," it says "several circumstances... inflict hits upon an enemy -- spells being an obvious example." It goes on to say "Such hits are resolved using steps 4, 5 and 6 of the rules for shooting attacks. The only exceptions are hits caused by close combat attacks...."

So this silly argument that only Magic Missiles work like shooting is bunk. Magic templates work just like shooting templates, and champions/characters get Look Out Sir against them.
Folk sometimes need a knock over the head to let some reason in their skulls. Wonder how many more pages people might need to let it trickle slowly in...

some_scrub
21-07-2010, 14:56
However, on p.36 under "Spell Resolution," it says to refer to the shooting phase instructions to resolve spells that inflict hits or wounds.

Right. This obviously doesn't apply to the Purple Sun - it specifically says spells that inflict hits and wounds. The reason this sentence exists is that the rules for rolling to wound have not yet been described in the book, so it refers you to the first place they are.



In the shooting rules, on p.42 in the box-out "Resolving Unusual Attacks," it says "several circumstances... inflict hits upon an enemy -- spells being an obvious example." It goes on to say "Such hits are resolved using steps 4, 5 and 6 of the rules for shooting attacks. The only exceptions are hits caused by close combat attacks...."


Again, this is a reference to "circumstances...which cause hits," which can include spells. This tells you how to handle things that bypass rolling to hit as described earlier in the chapter. Purple sun doesn't cause hits.



So this silly argument that only Magic Missiles work like shooting is bunk. Magic templates work just like shooting templates, and champions/characters get Look Out Sir against them.

All the passages you quote refer to something completely irrelevant to the discussion: distribution of hits from spells. So Magic Missiles are clearly covered. Templates that force characteristic tests aren't.

The important thing is that no passage describing LO,S! mentions spells in any way; on the other hand, on page 105, it says "If you use a weapon or spell that uses a template against a monster mount" you hit both. Clearly the authors felt the need to specify that this rule applies to spells also. If your interpretation were right, they would have just said "shooting attacks" to remain consistent, right?


Folk sometimes need a knock over the head to let some reason in their skulls. Wonder how many more pages people might need to let it trickle slowly in...

Glad you could contribute, thanks.:rolleyes:

stripsteak
21-07-2010, 16:25
Scatter states that it's resolved at the end of the scatter, not the end of the move.....that kinda implied to me scatter see what's underneath and then resolve. and finish. At which point the template is moved out 1 inch from the unit.

And what does touching classify as then? If the other ones state models underneath the template what does "touching" refer to? It'd be a little silly if you actually had to touch the opponents models with you template. hahahaha.

You're adding the underneath to all templates, sure it applies 'normally' but that doesn't mean everything. Each template tells you how you resolve it most say models under the template, which only matters at the end of the move since they are the only models currently under the template.

the purple sun says touched, which yes isn't very clear. It seems to be written as if the template is place physically directly on the table and somehow slid along the table underneath/through the models or something. And also it technically includes the wizard casting the spell as well. it also doesn't say touched this turn, just touched so you could argue that models have to test each turn until they fail a test or the spell ends.

I'm hoping for them to change the wording to something like any model the template passed completely or partially over this turn takes a yada yada. I believe that is how most people are playing it currently anyway.

Yellow Commissar
21-07-2010, 17:06
Right. This obviously doesn't apply to the Purple Sun - it specifically says spells that inflict hits and wounds. The reason this sentence exists is that the rules for rolling to wound have not yet been described in the book, so it refers you to the first place they are.



Again, this is a reference to "circumstances...which cause hits," which can include spells. This tells you how to handle things that bypass rolling to hit as described earlier in the chapter. Purple sun doesn't cause hits.

I disagree with you. I think you are being to a bit too selective of when the term "hit" can be applied. Warhammer is not MtG. "RAW" does not exist. To play this game we must be ready to interpret the rules with an open mind.

I think pg 9 may help the situation here; "Normally, any model that is fully or even partially underneath the template is hit automatically with the effect described in the special rules for the attack".

It would seem, then, to me at least, that the models are indeed "hit" with the effect (Leadership test) of the Purple Sun.

Hope I helped. :)

Romulus68
21-07-2010, 18:48
I'm not arguing the rules, but thinking of the Spirit of the rule somewhat.

The fact that is says any model touched by the Template takes the Initiative test and the spell clearly states the caster must start the spell touching the template leads me to the below conclusion.

It's a POWERFUL spell that has POWERFUL risk involved. IE..The caster could be its first victim. Risk versus Reward. You risk the Wizard when its cast, but the damage is great when the spell is resolved.

That is my 2 cents.

Haravikk
21-07-2010, 19:09
Regarding the placement of the template 1" beyond a unit it comes to rest upon, I suspect the intention is to avoid a unit being hit twice by the same attack, so I would only put it 1" beyond the first unit it landed on, if this causes it to land on a second unit then I'd leave the template there (or place a marker if more convenient). The second unit wouldn't be hit until the next magic phase (if it's still there) as this "bonus move" is just determining where the template will continue moving from once it's time to work that out. I wouldn't think that models covered by the bonus move would be affected unless they were landed upon in the first place, as it's independent of the spell.

i.e - move the template, work out who is hit, resolve hits, if template is resting on a unit at end of its move then move it beyond the unit ready for next time.

Zaustus
22-07-2010, 00:28
I think Yellow Commissar's quote from p.9 pretty conclusively proves that Purple Sun "hits" its targets. Thus, all of my previous comments are relevant, and (conclusively, I think) show that characters and champions get LO,S against the Purple Sun (and indeed, all templates unless otherwise noted).

some_scrub
22-07-2010, 05:08
I disagree with you. I think you are being to a bit too selective of when the term "hit" can be applied. Warhammer is not MtG. "RAW" does not exist. To play this game we must be ready to interpret the rules with an open mind.


I'm not sure what this means. RAW obviously exists, that's why we have a rulebook. What is written in that book constitutes the rules, together with the errata/FAQs and armybooks. It is true that the rules of Warhammer are not written as precisely as the rules of MtG so these sorts of situations happen all the time in Warhammer and virtually/literally never do in Magic. That doesn't mean we shouldn't look at the rulebook and figure out what it actually says as best as we can.



I think pg 9 may help the situation here; "Normally, any model that is fully or even partially underneath the template is hit automatically with the effect described in the special rules for the attack".

It would seem, then, to me at least, that the models are indeed "hit" with the effect (Leadership test) of the Purple Sun.


Short answer: "Hit with an effect," which is clearly the colloquial use of the term, is not the same as a "hit" in Warhammer jargon. It is true that the models touched the template (which may or may not be the same as "under or partially under") are "hit with the effect" but that has nothing to do with distributing with

Long Answer: We have a Magical Vortex spell which causes initiative tests to models under (or touched by) a template. We have Look out sir which says it can be used against shooting attacks which use templates. The two passages cited as providing a connection between these two rules are 1) a sentence in the spell resolution section which tells you which page to go to to find out how to deal with the spells causing hits and wounds. (Purple Sun causes neither of these things. It "hits" people in the colloquial sense but it doesn't "cause hits" in the warhammer sense). and 2) A box in the shooting section which instructs you how to resolve effects (like spells) causing hits (It tells you to roll to wound, then roll armor saves, then remove casualties). Neither of these sections has anything to do with Magical Vortex spells.

Whether or not the template rules tells us that, normally, models under the template are "hit" by the effect has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not the Purple Sun causes hits. It clearly doesn't

At the very least I think there is a conspicuous absence of a reference to spell or magic in every one of the sections on Look Out, Sir! while every other reference to templates specifically mentions spells and magic. Multiple coincidental oversights or intention? Who knows.