PDA

View Full Version : Evidence of less bonkers, more noble warrior aspect Khorne followers?



Raellos
19-07-2010, 06:56
Hello. I've always wondered why the martial aspect of Khorne seems to only exist as part of the god's description and nowhere else. The Blood Pact are certainly more sensible, but that seems about it.

I'm wondering whether there are any examples in the fluff, past or present for any of Khorne's aspects other than 'bloodybloodbloodblood, skulls.' Anything in the spectrum between (and including) 'not quite a frothing loony' to 'stricter and more positive moral code than many loyalist Space Marine chapters'.

Cheers!

Craftworld
19-07-2010, 07:53
I think that it's only the truly "devoted" followers of Khorne that become more beast than man.

Because you can see examples of intelligent, and well-spoken Khornites if you look for them.

Such as:
I salute you! For though our path has been long and bloody, you have served our Lord with unflinching courage and the honor of true warriors. We have seen many fall today and must remember, even as we die, that our blood too is welcome.."

Or the short story Let The Blood Flow, on page 49 of the same codex.

I thought I recalled that Khorne used to be about honor and the warriors code in times passed, but they dumbed him down recently.

drmarco
19-07-2010, 08:00
Alternatively, consider the Eldar warrior paths...

From one perspective it's quite apparent that their following of Khaine is a 'sanitised' practice of worshipping the 'Eldar' aspects of Khorne...

Marco

Polaria
19-07-2010, 09:32
All Chaos Gods are pretty damn monomaniacal and devoted to one concept and one emotion. In the case of Khorne his "portfolio" is the concept of violence and the emotion of hate. Being a Chaos god Khorne has no obligation to be make his followers life any easier (quite the opposite), thus he pretty much goes with the mantra: More violence = Good, More hate = Better.

For a true follower of Khorne any concept of "nobility" is wasted right then and there. Khorne doesn't care where or how the blood comes as long as it was shed in orgy of violence by ragefilled person.

Caelnaethon
19-07-2010, 09:48
I'm wondering whether there are any examples in the fluff, past or present for any of Khorne's aspects other than 'bloodybloodbloodblood, skulls.' Anything in the specrum between (and including) 'not quite a frothing loony' to 'stricter and more positive moral code than many loyalist Space Marine chapters'.
I think this spectrum exists, it's just more of a slippery slope than anything else. The Chaos Gods are made up of raw emotions and are defined by excess. Each embodies an emotion that is "good" in healthy moderation (we can't really live without fear and anger any more than hope or ambition), but because of what they are, the tendency is to drag their followers further and further into wild, mindless indulgence. Khorne embodies the desire to destroy, which is fine if you're a warrior looking to destroy the enemies of your people. But Khorne himself doesn't care about your noble cause, he just wants blood. And when your war is over, you may find it a struggle to stop fighting...


Alternatively, consider the Eldar warrior paths...

From one perspective it's quite apparent that their following of Khaine is a 'sanitised' practice of worshipping the 'Eldar' aspects of Khorne...
The key thing to remember here is that Khaine is older than Khorne. The whole Blood God/Bloody-Handed God thing is a bit confusing, but Khaine isn't a classic Chaos God. Exactly what he is, I think is open to debate. :)

Askil the Undecided
19-07-2010, 10:09
Khorne is also the patron if warriors, honour, martial skill and warriors pride.

That's why he respects those who rely on forged weapons and their own raw power rather than magical spells and diplomatic trickery.

The fact is that Khorne is the ultimate warrior, he is the cumulative personification of the honourable crusading knight and the callous blood-frenzied chainsaw-killer and every intentional lifetaker in between those two.

So yes there may well be knightly honourble khornates out their who kill you only if you are looking at them and only use their one chosen weapon with consumate skill. It's just that beserkers are far more unique and iconic as an image than having another knightly achetype (as the SM have it nailed.)

Lord Damocles
19-07-2010, 16:17
'Words of Blood' in Let The Galaxy Burn, pgs.13-32. Diess in particular.

Malice313
20-07-2010, 12:37
The path of Chaos is one that always starts at a seemingly reasonable point.

Imperial citizen don't just wake up one morning and think "Today I feel like totally abandoning an entire life of indoctrination as well as my basic survival instinct. Think I'll go join a Chaos Cult."

That sort of stuff takes years of brainwashing.

I think the noble warrior ethos is where you start to recruit and a fearless, frothing berserker is the final stage of devolution.

Mannimarco
20-07-2010, 14:49
Siege of Vraks part........3? I think

Lord Zhufor, when trying to become to commander of all the renegade forces, went around challenging the lords of the other factions to a duel where they would strip and go at each other with chain axes. Whoever won in this fight to the death would gain command over the others warband.

This goes against the whole "armour and skin melding so they can never remove it" thing we have been told about Chaos though.

x-esiv-4c
20-07-2010, 15:11
Chaos has been dumbed down quite a bit over time.

Slaanesh: "...huur secks"
Nurgle: "...hurr poos"
Khorne: "RoFlKill!!11!!"
Tzeentch: "lolercide, I meanT to do That!11!!!unterpanten!!!"

So yeah, old fluff paints a much better picture of the chaos powers in my opinion.

Culgore
20-07-2010, 15:12
Mannimarco, I was going to use that same example. But I think the armor melding to skin bit might only apply to those dudes from the Heresy. Because as we all know now from the current codex, Chaos Space Marines are just dudes who got tired of being on the Emperor's side and traded all their good wargear for spikes.

PariahX
20-07-2010, 15:29
"Through the gates that stand between the mortal world and the immortal Realm of Chaos are now closed to me, still I would rather die having glimpsed eternity than never to have stirred from the cold furrow of mortal life.

I embrace death without regret as I embraced life without fear."

Kargos Bloodspitter, Champion of Khorne

metal bawks
20-07-2010, 15:34
Khonre has always been the god of violent bloodshed, and nothing else.
His followers may have some sort of code of honour, but Khorne himself doesn't care. The only thing he doesn't approve of (aside not killing things) is sorcery.

To back this up, here's a few quotes from Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, the very book in which Chaos was first introduced:


Khorne is the Power of Chaos in its aspect of mindless and absolute violence, destroying everything and everyone within its reach, slaying both friend and foe alike.

Every life taken by a follower of Khorne increases the Blood God's power. He looks with particular favour upon those who take the lives of their friends and allies, and the more death and destruction a creature has caused, the more welcome it is as a sacrifice to Khorne.

Some from Liber Chaotica:


Every living thing they killed; all that drew breath was culled from the earth, which in turn was fired and the walls tumbled down, so nothing could live there again.


[about the gifts of Khorne to his followers] While they gain in skill with the sword and axe and bow, when battle is in the offing they lose all rational thought and reason and only wish to close with the enemy and tear at them with whatever comes to hand. [...] Away from the field they become empty shells of men, as though their soul had already been taken.

Col. Dash
20-07-2010, 16:46
Nope, theres multiple scenes in the recent Night Lord book where the heresy era marines walk around in tunics while their serfs work and repair their armor and weapons. In the older fluff before GW dumbed down chaos so people wouldnt see shades of grey the chaos gods had multiple aspects and personalities. Grandfather Nurgle was just that, a jolly fat guy who loved his children and whose avatars would happily whistle along with whatever the noise marines happened to be playing on the battlefield.
Khorne was the god of martial honor as well. In the same book that the above reference is from(dont ask for a quote, I am at work and that was more than a decade ago that i read it) Khorne would take off the head of any berserker who killed an unarmed and defenseless opponent and add the skull to his throne. I remember references as well to honorable knightly orders within the Empire(of fantasy) who had Khorne as their god under a different name.
I think the newest codex has some World Eaters actually using tactics and covering fire to approach the enemy and carrying on a conversation with each other until a berserk Kharne decides their smoke break is over.

neXus6
20-07-2010, 17:17
Also weren't Khorne Warmachines in Epic notorious for being exceptionally shooty? That certainly goes against the "ragh, charge, decapitate" thing.

Liber Chaotica is easily the best book GW have ever had published, even the few (terrible in my opinion) red and brass pieces of John Blanche artwork can't knock it down.

metal bawks
20-07-2010, 22:41
Khorne was the god of martial honor as well. In the same book that the above reference is from(dont ask for a quote, I am at work and that was more than a decade ago that i read it) Khorne would take off the head of any berserker who killed an unarmed and defenseless opponent and add the skull to his throne. I remember references as well to honorable knightly orders within the Empire(of fantasy) who had Khorne as their god under a different name.

I checked and, no, there is no such thing in these two books. Neither is there in any of the CSM codices. There's a lot more about killing everyone and everything, though. And it makes sense, because if such background did exist in these books, it would directly contradict everything else that was said about Khorne.

Liber Chaotica even describes Berserkers as being shunned by other CSM because they tend to kill their own allies when frenzied.

Note, however, that I said Khorne doesn't care about honour. Some of his followers might, though it is heavily implied that most of them eventually lose their personality. The scene with Kharn you mention is a perfect example - the Berserkers still have some rational thought left in them, but he doesn't. He kills them, therefore showing that Khorne does not approve of their hesitation to spill blood, despite it being their own.


Also weren't Khorne Warmachines in Epic notorious for being exceptionally shooty? That certainly goes against the "ragh, charge, decapitate" thing.

Khorne doesn't have anything against shooting; it's just that close combat is more personal. Notice the quote I provided does mention that "they gain in skill with the sword and axe and bow".

massey
20-07-2010, 23:07
Different people may worship Khorne in different ways.

To the marauders of the Illith Plain, he is known as Khash, god of the Great Mountain. He blesses his followers, who roam the steppes, giving them strength and courage against the inhabitants of the Dark City. Thus he is a god of life, because he protects the tribes.

To the Unali fishermen, he is known as Khalik, the Great Bear. He steals upon the young men during the Night of Seven Winters, and they fall upon themselves until only 8 sets of 8 remain, for the fasting times will follow as the sea freezes over and withholds its bounty. Thus, he is a god of death and rebirth, for he ensures that the strongest survive during the times when the tribe cannot feed everyone.

To the soldiers of Tarsus XII, he is Khrund, the honorable god of combat. He favors the bold and scorns the meek. A man who dies with his back to the enemy will never enter into Khrund's fortress, and will instead by thrown out to feed Khrund's war dogs. A man who slaughters helpless innocents is no better, and will be fed to Khrund's dragon. Only those who are pure of heart and brave of spirit will join him in his great dining hall, to recount stories of glorious battle for endless ages.

Khorne is worshipped in many ways by many cultures. But whatever the name, whatever trappings of civilization his servants may ascribe to him, he is still Khorne, the butcher. Concepts like honor and courage are as foreign to him as peace and love. Khorne is the god of slaughter and hatred, and any other attributes are merely the products of fanciful imaginations, people reading their own hopes and desires into the blessings of the Blood God.

The Devourer
21-07-2010, 00:05
Khorne hasn't always been killkillkill. Like with all of the chaos gods Khorne embodies the whole range but the further you fall into worshiping khorne the closer you become to a bezerker.While Khorne did bless bezerkers and many worshipers were bezekers there were more sane ones too. Recently GW have been dumbing the chaos gods down into just their most extreme forms.

I don't think that Khorne CSM and even World eaters are as insane as GW portrays them. When they get into combat they would go bezerk and make the occasional mistake and kill someone on their own side, however outside combat they can't be much worse than normal SM (aside from getting angry quicker). If they just wanted to kill everyone and anyone they wouldn't ever be a threat. They would be unable to get anywhere and could never form into groups of any considerable size. While they are traveling around they would need to be able to spend a lot of time together without killing each other. They would also need to train, if they are as insane as GW says they are any training would turn into them just wiping each other out.

Clockwork-Knight
21-07-2010, 01:42
In which book is it written that Khorne isn't always about killkillkill?

Zothos
21-07-2010, 01:59
Realm of Chaos "Slaves to Darkness"

Scribe of Khorne
21-07-2010, 03:33
In which book is it written that Khorne isn't always about killkillkill?

Chaos Codex, 3.5.

"Khorne is generally the dominant Chaos God, for he draws on the rawest most elemental forces of human nature. His armies heave with those ensnared by notions of courage, honour, martial pride and revenge: all such concepts lead ultimately to the base of the Blood God's throne."

massey
21-07-2010, 04:51
Those are just the gateway drugs. Khorne isn't about those concepts. He's about slaughter. Because ultimately, courage, honor, those things lead to battle. And battle leads to the spilling of blood. At the end of that long road, you will find Khorne.

Scribe of Khorne
21-07-2010, 05:12
Yes, I 100% agree. However even though the core, the end of the road as you say, is full on rage, there are rest points along the way which allow for a wider range of motivations, emotions, and concepts.

Shaft, Lord of Slaanesh
21-07-2010, 06:49
Ulrik the Slayer, 1st war of Armageddon (if my power of memory serves me well...). After defeating several Khorne Berzerkers in combat he was saluted by one of their champions/lieutenants... To be fair I don't know how much this has changed over time but a fine example of Khorne appreciating the finer things of slaughter.

Toodles
Shaft

Malagate
21-07-2010, 08:33
I think some of you are confusing the god Khorne with the followers of Khorne...
The followers of Khorne can do what they like as long as it leads to bloodshed, which is pretty much the only thing Khorne likes. A follower of Khorne could like baking pastries and flower pressing, as long as the pastries are soaked in blood and the flowers are pressed with fresh skulls then Khorne shall be pleased.

metal bawks
21-07-2010, 08:35
Realm of Chaos "Slaves to Darkness"

Once again, this is simply not true.


"Khorne is generally the dominant Chaos God, for he draws on the rawest most elemental forces of human nature. His armies heave with those ensnared by notions of courage, honour, martial pride and revenge: all such concepts lead ultimately to the base of the Blood God's throne."

It says his worshipers are ENSNARED by such notions. BIG difference.

Khorne's followers are a diverse lot; they worship him for all sorts of reasons and in many different ways. But Khorne doesn't care about that either way. Whether they fight honourably or not is none of his concern. As long as they kill violently, Khorne is happy.

As Realms of Chaos puts it:

The only way to incur favour with him is killing. The only way to incur his displeasure is by not killing.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Khorne's greatest champion is called "the Betrayer". Doesn't sound very honourable to me.

Sir_Turalyon
21-07-2010, 10:38
There was a great quote in 2nd edition Chaos codex showing example of not-mindless bloodlust. Something along the lines of

"BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! Surpressing fire - heavy bolter angle [string of numbers] ..."

madprophet
21-07-2010, 10:45
Personally, I would think Khornite honor would be sort of like the German SS - they went on and on about honor and loyalty but still butchered innocent women and children. They had a sense of honor after a fashion, they could dress nice and be acceptable dinner guests but at the end of the day they were still brutal and vicious homicidal maniacs.

The idea that a uniformed murderer has to be a berzerk doesn't square with what we know of human nature. The banality of evil is what makes it so dangerous. Khorne is no different.

ashc
21-07-2010, 11:28
in regards to armour being melded to its wearer - in some cases yes. Consider it a common gift or mutation, but it certainly doesn't mean that all chaos marines get it.

Zweischneid
21-07-2010, 12:52
Well, I think as has been pointed out, there is enough conceptual space between the God himself and his followers to build a "more honorable" Khornite force if you wish.

In the end, Khorn himself is just after the violent kill (and Kharn, who has been around since.. well.. ever.. I do remember him in 2nd edition, is one iconic Khornite precisely he simply doesn't care whom he kills, why he kills or what he kills as long as he can split skulls). On the other hand, I don't think Khorne cares if his followers keep some other virtues as long as the blood flows.

Thus, I think it is perfectly viable to build your army around a group/faction of (Chaos) Space Marines who have drifted into Khorne-worship because of saner rationals, clinging to remenants of warrior-codes and notions of honor and revenge, even as these very ideals drive them into the next blood-soaked battle time and time again.

abasio
21-07-2010, 13:00
As said before Khorne wants blood, Khorne wants skulls, Khorne wants people to die. That is Khorne, as many people should die as possible to please Khorne the most, no?

I reckon a Beserker just isn't efficient enough, sure one could kill everything in sight but he is just one soldier and there is only so much time. A more rational thinker can devise ways to kills thousands at once. Wouldn't this please Khorne more?

Clockwork-Knight
21-07-2010, 14:09
Khorne doesn't care, as long as blood is shed. The metaphorical act is important, not just the quantity of lives taken.
A particularily gruesome murder so horrifying that people get nightmares of it is as good as 1.000.000.000 killed with a nuclear bomb.

Scribe of Khorne
21-07-2010, 15:50
The thread has deviated a bit.

I guess the final answer that can be agreed on.

Khorne - Honor, dishonor, whatever. In the end its about killing and rage.
Khorne Follower - Honor, Courage, Rage, Bloodlust, the list goes on and on.

Whatever leads to the act of that hate driven blow, is a part of khornes portfolio, but its not the ultimate focus.


Well, I think as has been pointed out, there is enough conceptual space between the God himself and his followers to build a "more honorable" Khornite force if you wish.

In the end, Khorn himself is just after the violent kill (and Kharn, who has been around since.. well.. ever.. I do remember him in 2nd edition, is one iconic Khornite precisely he simply doesn't care whom he kills, why he kills or what he kills as long as he can split skulls). On the other hand, I don't think Khorne cares if his followers keep some other virtues as long as the blood flows.

Thus, I think it is perfectly viable to build your army around a group/faction of (Chaos) Space Marines who have drifted into Khorne-worship because of saner rationals, clinging to remenants of warrior-codes and notions of honor and revenge, even as these very ideals drive them into the next blood-soaked battle time and time again.

This post sums it up nice. :]

Hunger
21-07-2010, 16:16
While they are traveling around they would need to be able to spend a lot of time together without killing each other. They would also need to train, if they are as insane as GW says they are any training would turn into them just wiping each other out.

This is a funny observation, but is very obviously true. While I can see Berzerkers having enough sense to not kill the crews of their starships, the training thing is a good point.

If they were to rely solely on their rage they would be mediocre opponents at best - anyone who's ever been in a fight knows that anger makes you hit harder and gives you extra energy reserves, but a reasonably experienced fighter will still hand you your ****. A professional boxer or martial artist will inevitably take you out without even breaking a sweat, no matter how full of rage you are.

In order to be some of the galaxy's most lethal mortal warriors means they must certainly train - Berzerkers are professional boxers and martial artists with bucketloads of anger too. However, somehow I don't think most Berzerkers will be able to get to grips with the idea of 'simulated violence'. I imagine that pulling punches, practising sword moves (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPPj6viIBmU) and not killing your sparring partner are concepts that do not rate very highly with the average Khorne devotee.




I reckon a Beserker just isn't efficient enough, sure one could kill everything in sight but he is just one soldier and there is only so much time. A more rational thinker can devise ways to kills thousands at once. Wouldn't this please Khorne more?

This is interesting. Who is the greater Khorne worshipper - the blood soaked Berzerker who chainswords his way through six thousand enemy soldiers during the battle, or the calculating Inquisitor who decides the world has fallen and subjects the fourteen billion people on it to exterminatus?

x-esiv-4c
21-07-2010, 16:48
At the end of the day, it's whatever gets the job done :)

Zweischneid
21-07-2010, 17:02
This is interesting. Who is the greater Khorne worshipper - the blood soaked Berzerker who chainswords his way through six thousand enemy soldiers during the battle, or the calculating Inquisitor who decides the world has fallen and subjects the fourteen billion people on it to exterminatus?

Without a doubt the Zerker. Chaos Gods feed on, and are manifestations of emotions. It is the feeling and/or emotion of tearing a foe apart, ripping tendons, spilling blood, seeing the light go out in his eyes, etc.. what pleases (and empowers) a Chaos God of violence.

Quantity of "kills" doesn't matter. Quantity of the emotional moments of "murderous rage" is what counts.

AndrewGPaul
21-07-2010, 17:46
There was a great quote in 2nd edition Chaos codex showing example of not-mindless bloodlust. Something along the lines of

"BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! Surpressing fire - heavy bolter angle [string of numbers] ..."

This is the one you're talking about:


++ Commander. They Beg for mercy -
++ Mercy! Oh Lord Khorne, truly have you led us to a land overflowing with blood and skulls! Give them the mercy of death.
++ Affirm. Blood! Blood! Blood for my Lord!
++ Chosen of Khorne, lead us in the final assault!
++ Blood for the Blood God! Suppressing fire. Forward and centre. Heavy Bolters range 250. Move scum.../

Communications intercept ends. The Portrein defenders are assumed to have detonated their armoury.

-Ordo Malleus secret report: Portrein raid 106960.M41

It's from the World Eaters army list from Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness

One of the old short stories - Ignorant Armies, possibly - had a foppish Champion of Khorne. He may have dressed in silks and spoke like a nobleman, but he was deadly with a rapier, and had lived in the Wastes for centuries. Khorne will take all sorts, as long as they're willing to kill in his name.

Askil the Undecided
21-07-2010, 17:56
Realm of Chaos, Rogue Trader, RoC: Slaves to Darkness. Basically everything before 3rd ed 40k (when dumbing down started gathering momentum.)

Also without the "martial pride" aspect could someone tell me the reason why Khorne despises slaanesh due to his foppery offending Khorne's martial pride?

de Selby
21-07-2010, 18:12
World Eaters Berserkers are Angron's legion, and Angron was a gladiator, not a soldier. This probably colours their attitudes to combat.

Other champions might come to Khorne via a different route. Hunters, Duellers, Stormtroopers etc.

Hunger
21-07-2010, 19:06
Quantity of "kills" doesn't matter. Quantity of the emotional moments of "murderous rage" is what counts.

Yep, I think you nailed it. Well, that was a short game!




Also without the "martial pride" aspect could someone tell me the reason why Khorne despises slaanesh due to his foppery offending Khorne's martial pride?

His martial pride* is not the only thing that is offended by Slaanesh's tight trousers and camp voice. Slaanesh is all about selfishness and inward emotion, pleasure and enjoyment for oneself, satiating ones desires and living for yourself. In contrast, Khorne is all about outward actions that affect others (namely by rendering them dead), sacrifice, and the outlet of destructive and violent emotions like anger and hatred.

If Khorne had no pride in arms, the other aspects of his modus operandi addressed earlier in this thread might still be insulted by Slaanesh. For instance, notions such as honour, courage and sacrifice that might have a place in Khorne-influenced martial fraternities would be offended by Slaanesh followers' susceptibility to kill in sadistic ways, perform ignoble acts like torture and rape, and generally act in ways that fulfil ones own desires.

I must admit that I'm guilty of playing devil's advocate and blurring the line between Gods and followers here - I am in agreement that its the martial aspect of Khorne's psyche that is most insulted by Slaanesh's mincing.



*(At first glance I read this as 'marital pride')

Askil the Undecided
21-07-2010, 19:38
Yep, I think you nailed it. Well, that was a short game!





His martial pride* is not the only thing that is offended by Slaanesh's tight trousers and camp voice. Slaanesh is all about selfishness and inward emotion, pleasure and enjoyment for oneself, satiating ones desires and living for yourself. In contrast, Khorne is all about outward actions that affect others (namely by rendering them dead), sacrifice, and the outlet of destructive and violent emotions like anger and hatred.

If Khorne had no pride in arms, the other aspects of his modus operandi addressed earlier in this thread might still be insulted by Slaanesh. For instance, notions such as honour, courage and sacrifice that might have a place in Khorne-influenced martial fraternities would be offended by Slaanesh followers' susceptibility to kill in sadistic ways, perform ignoble acts like torture and rape, and generally act in ways that fulfil ones own desires.

I must admit that I'm guilty of playing devil's advocate and blurring the line between Gods and followers here - I am in agreement that its the martial aspect of Khorne's psyche that is most insulted by Slaanesh's mincing.



*(At first glance I read this as 'marital pride')

I was lumping the honour, (maybe even chivalry to a point?) martial code, courage, and pursuit of skill in combat as "martial pride" rather than discounting them.

There is also the fact that Khorne is essentially the the one god who doesn't <censored> "fornicate" about playing tricks (magical pestilential or sensual) or sneaking about. To put it bluntly if he wants you dead, you'll probably die quite soon. However, he does it on his terms (rather like the way medieval wars among christians were often very bloody and vicious but generally weren't fought on holy days.)

It doesn't meant he doesn't want to tear your head off while your not looking, he's just more interested in being able to see your eyes when you realise there's nothing you can do to keep him from tearing your head off while you face him weapon in hand.

Wyrmwood
21-07-2010, 20:24
Ulrik the Slayer, 1st war of Armageddon (if my power of memory serves me well...). After defeating several Khorne Berzerkers in combat he was saluted by one of their champions/lieutenants... To be fair I don't know how much this has changed over time but a fine example of Khorne appreciating the finer things of slaughter.

Toodles
Shaft

That was no mere champion, that salute came from Angron himself...

Hunger
21-07-2010, 21:04
I was lumping the honour, (maybe even chivalry to a point?) martial code, courage, and pursuit of skill in combat as "martial pride" rather than discounting them.

I see what you mean - they are all really connected. I definitely endorse the idea of proud, courageous, noble and chivalrous Khornate warriors - as mentioned earlier, these aspects of the warrior's persona are the gateways that let the corruption in.

I can well imagine a noble and cultured order of civil knights or suchlike, gentlemanly and chivalrous, sworn to defend the cities of their nation (I just finished Descent of Angels...) observing traditions and offering praise to a deity who empowers them, makes them bolder, tougher, better warriors and gives them the power to conquer and eliminate their foes.

However, as time passes the order becomes more belligerent. Rather than vanquishing foes to bolster the stability of their nation, their politics start to become more and more aggressive and they start making war on their neighbours for flimsier and flimsier reasons. The warriors themselves become more savage and bloodthirsty, new practices start to creep into their traditions.

The order gradually comes to depend upon the violence that defines it, and looks no further than the next battle. The once gallant knights think nothing of killing women and babies, start taking heads and other body parts as trophies. Raids on enemy cities become less about military goals and more about simply slaughtering the people.

At the end of the road the knights simply charge out of their fortress every day, their armour smeared with blood and sporting Khorne icons, leader swinging a daemon weapon, and head for the nearest place where there are people to butcher - a process they repeat until there is nobody left to kill, at which point they simply kill each other.

Scribe of Khorne
21-07-2010, 22:22
I see what you mean - they are all really connected. I definitely endorse the idea of proud, courageous, noble and chivalrous Khornate warriors - as mentioned earlier, these aspects of the warrior's persona are the gateways that let the corruption in.

I can well imagine a noble and cultured order of civil knights or suchlike, gentlemanly and chivalrous, sworn to defend the cities of their nation (I just finished Descent of Angels...) observing traditions and offering praise to a deity who empowers them, makes them bolder, tougher, better warriors and gives them the power to conquer and eliminate their foes.

However, as time passes the order becomes more belligerent. Rather than vanquishing foes to bolster the stability of their nation, their politics start to become more and more aggressive and they start making war on their neighbours for flimsier and flimsier reasons. The warriors themselves become more savage and bloodthirsty, new practices start to creep into their traditions.

The order gradually comes to depend upon the violence that defines it, and looks no further than the next battle. The once gallant knights think nothing of killing women and babies, start taking heads and other body parts as trophies. Raids on enemy cities become less about military goals and more about simply slaughtering the people.

At the end of the road the knights simply charge out of their fortress every day, their armour smeared with blood and sporting Khorne icons, leader swinging a daemon weapon, and head for the nearest place where there are people to butcher - a process they repeat until there is nobody left to kill, at which point they simply kill each other.

Yes, this is exactly as I see it.

AndrewGPaul
21-07-2010, 22:28
Slaanesh is the Lord of Pleasure, the Power of Chaos dedicated to the pursuit of hedonistic pleasures and the overthrow of all codes of decent behaviour ... Particular enemies are the followers of Khorne, whose belief in pain and death is completely opposed to Slaanesh's principle of a life of unrestricted pleasure.


Khorne is the Power of Chaos in its aspect of mindless and absolute violence, destroying everything and everyone within its reach, slaying both friend and foe alike.

From the beginning of Slaves to Darkness.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 02:16
AndrewGPaul, I'd argue that those stances have been ret-conned.

For the first, Slaanesh is now as much about pain as he is pleasure. I think simple sensation would be a more accurate descriptive word for his current incarnation.

For the second, Khorne is now described as a god of rage, with the mindless violence that your quote refers to being the simplest and most passionate fashion in which the release and celebration of rage can be practiced.

I'm probably just splitting hairs, but I think once you get into the more intricate notions of the different views on devotion and the nature of emotion, these distinctions should be made.

abasio
22-07-2010, 02:26
Without a doubt the Zerker. Chaos Gods feed on, and are manifestations of emotions. It is the feeling and/or emotion of tearing a foe apart, ripping tendons, spilling blood, seeing the light go out in his eyes, etc.. what pleases (and empowers) a Chaos God of violence.

Quantity of "kills" doesn't matter. Quantity of the emotional moments of "murderous rage" is what counts.

How about the terrified emotion of simply dying, multiplied by a few hundred billion?

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 02:30
I think quantity matters a great deal to a god of rage. Can you imagine how much hatred would be produced by the deaths of millions? Or billions?

massey
22-07-2010, 03:01
None at all if they're all dead. And I don't think that's the right kind of hatred.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 03:13
The right kind of hatred? Do explain :)

AndrewGPaul
22-07-2010, 11:49
AndrewGPaul, I'd argue that those stances have been ret-conned.

For the first, Slaanesh is now as much about pain as he is pleasure. I think simple sensation would be a more accurate descriptive word for his current incarnation.

For the second, Khorne is now described as a god of rage, with the mindless violence that your quote refers to being the simplest and most passionate fashion in which the release and celebration of rage can be practiced.

I'm probably just splitting hairs, but I think once you get into the more intricate notions of the different views on devotion and the nature of emotion, these distinctions should be made.

No, I think what you've said is, basically, the same as what I quoted. A follower of Slaanesh will kill for the sensation of killing - the feel of the dagger going into flesh, the warmth of the blood, the look in the victim's face as he dies. A follower of Khorne will kill for the sake of killing, nothing more. It's irrelevant if the killer enjoyed the act, or savoured the sensations or emotions. Killing for a follower of Khorne is the objective itself, whereas for a Slaaneshi worshipper, killing is merely a means to experiencing greater and greater sensation.

massey
22-07-2010, 12:05
Little Janie Smith the cheerleader hates little Heather Johnson, another cheerleader. She hates her for her nice car, for her perfect hair, for her cute boyfriend. She really wants to destroy Heather Johnson. But since she doesn't want to physically tear her limb from limb, it's not the right kind of hatred.

Sheriff Leroy Buford is a long-time member of the Klan. He hates every minority with a passion. But he doesn't want to chop them up into pieces, he just wants them to leave his town and never come back. It's not the right kind of hatred.

Young Ana Botswana hates the dictator who rules her country and has imprisoned her father. She protests, and gives financial support those who would overthrow the dictator. She has even gone so far as to help pay for a bomb. But it's not the right kind of hatred.

Khorne is a god of manly hate, a god of rage. Hate somebody and plot revenge? That's not Khorne. That's Tzeentch. Hate someone and just let that hate fester and grow inside you, eating you up inside? That's Nurgle. If you sit there and plan a scheme to get even, you're thinking too much. Your scheme should always be the same: chop them into pieces. That's the only scheme of which Khorne approves.

Gdolkin
22-07-2010, 12:36
Some excellent discussion here :) All I can add at the moment is, see the second quote in my sig? That's by Warseer member Sholto, who has a fanfic site called Incunabulum, and this quote is from a short story called 'The Bell' or something similar. Wicked portrayal of a sophisticated, rational and intelligent Khorne-worshipper :)
Edit: Well, I can't find the story I was thinking of on his site now, but I'm sure that's where I got the sig.. Visit it anyway, some great dark stories there. 'Fanfic' doesn't really do his work justice

piddlinggaley
22-07-2010, 17:03
Wasnt there the gold Knight in the Konrad books, I cant remember the whole deal with him, but didnt he ride about killing to sustain his armour or something. (unsure if he was a follower of Khorne or not)


Anyway
Slaves to Darkness Page 17

Every life taken by a follower increases the blood gods power, He looks with particular favour on those who kill their friends and allies, and the more death and destruction a creature has caused, the more welcome it is a sacrifice to Khorne.

That bieng said, I have never seen any particular Chaos god having a singular, solid mission statement. They are gods and would have perculated into the conciousness of civilizations in a differing manner depending on the innate character of said civilization, or indeed individual. I think it leaves a lot of options open for you top do as you wish when it comes to creating your own characters, or armies.

I do agree, after going back and looking at older GW pubs that their fluff has been seriously dumbed down, and is no way near as nightmarish and grim as it used to be, just look at The Marcher Fortress, page 12 of StD, creepy.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 17:10
No, I think what you've said is, basically, the same as what I quoted. A follower of Slaanesh will kill for the sensation of killing - the feel of the dagger going into flesh, the warmth of the blood, the look in the victim's face as he dies. A follower of Khorne will kill for the sake of killing, nothing more. It's irrelevant if the killer enjoyed the act, or savoured the sensations or emotions. Killing for a follower of Khorne is the objective itself, whereas for a Slaaneshi worshipper, killing is merely a means to experiencing greater and greater sensation.

The only point that I would disagree with is that once you get to the extremes of Khorne worship/dependence, the purpose of killing is to be an outlet. By killing and destroying, the individual releases its own pent up anger and hatred, which have no doubt been magnified by the Blood God's influence. If they can't release it on an external source and the emotions become overwhelming, the individual destroys his or herself, which he/she/it would say is a final service to Khorne and I would say is simply an attempt at release from a psychosis that they can no longer control. Interestingly enough, I guess then you could say that all of the external destruction is a method of catharsis to avoid self-destruction.

But then again, you could use that last point to explain all of the extremists within the cult followings of any of the Chaos Gods.


Little Janie Smith the cheerleader hates little Heather Johnson, another cheerleader. She hates her for her nice car, for her perfect hair, for her cute boyfriend. She really wants to destroy Heather Johnson. But since she doesn't want to physically tear her limb from limb, it's not the right kind of hatred.

Sheriff Leroy Buford is a long-time member of the Klan. He hates every minority with a passion. But he doesn't want to chop them up into pieces, he just wants them to leave his town and never come back. It's not the right kind of hatred.

Young Ana Botswana hates the dictator who rules her country and has imprisoned her father. She protests, and gives financial support those who would overthrow the dictator. She has even gone so far as to help pay for a bomb. But it's not the right kind of hatred.

Khorne is a god of manly hate, a god of rage. Hate somebody and plot revenge? That's not Khorne. That's Tzeentch. Hate someone and just let that hate fester and grow inside you, eating you up inside? That's Nurgle. If you sit there and plan a scheme to get even, you're thinking too much. Your scheme should always be the same: chop them into pieces. That's the only scheme of which Khorne approves.

Ah, see I believe the hatred feeds anyway Khorne anyway. It's why he's the most powerful. You've presented three cases in which the execution, or what the people in the examples are driven to do by there hatred, serves the aims of other gods. However, you've also presented three cases in which they all are driven by the emotion that serves Khorne.

Direct violence is the most simple application of anger. I totally agree that plotting and jealousy and despair can be the result, but they all either create or are spawned by hatred. I also agree that Khorne would only approve direct violence and blood letting of the most brutal sort, but so what? Khorne, like all of his brothers, is beholden to the basic emotions that comprise him. In a galaxy of fear, suspicion, and war, hatred rules and Khorne dominates. Because Khorne represents the most extreme of the emotion, his "purest" followers are those that are so fury-filled that they are incapable of scheming and simply need to destroy. But that doesn't preclude him from favoring the less blindly devoted.

FlashGordon
22-07-2010, 18:01
This goes against the whole "armour and skin melding so they can never remove it" thing we have been told about Chaos though.

You are thinking about chaos warriors in Warhammer fantasy. It is well known that Chaos space marines can remove their armour*
*i.e Storm of Iron.

PariahX
22-07-2010, 18:56
You are thinking about chaos warriors in Warhammer fantasy. It is well known that Chaos space marines can remove their armour*
*i.e Storm of Iron.

In 2nd edition, Berzerkers melded with their armour also. It's why they had a 2+ save.

Things Change.... constantly....

:skull:

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 19:01
I see what you did there. ;)

AndrewGPaul
22-07-2010, 19:33
It's Chaos. I don't believe that every Berserker is permanently bonded to his armour. :)

ashc
22-07-2010, 19:42
I was about to say that, many of them probably do as it is no doubt a favoured gift of Khorne, aiding in the protection of his followers, to bring more blood and skulls to his throne; that doesn't mean they all do. ;)

Zothos
22-07-2010, 21:49
I am sure that a vast number of Khorne devotees are simply mindless Berzerkers. However a mindless Berzerker cannot kill as many or CAUSE as many to be killed as a cold and calculating mastermind.

Many Megalomaniacs may never have killed anybody with their own hands, But history shows that they have caused far more death and despair than say, a serial murderer.

So I would think Khorne would appreciate those who can orchestrate the bloodletting of millions or billions, versus those who kill a few in a mindless rage......

The reason i bring this up is that the current fluff basically depicts Khornate followers as incredibly belligerent and almost impossible to work with, even for "evil" people. I would think that a "God" of Khornes influence would be much smarter than that. There is a bit of evidence for this view in Dan Abnetts "Gaunts Ghosts" series with the "Blood Pact" and "Sons of Sek".

You can kill a whole lot more with a bit of organization~

Grubnar
23-07-2010, 00:03
Kill one man you are a murderer. Kill one million and it is a mere statistic.
Khorne cares not for statistics! :mad:

madprophet
23-07-2010, 00:50
Kill one man you are a murderer
Kill ten men you are a monster
Kill a hundred men you are fiend
Kill a thousand men you are a hero
Kill ten thousand men you are a conqueror

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!!!:skull:

madprophet
23-07-2010, 01:00
I am sure that a vast number of Khorne devotees are simply mindless Berzerkers. However a mindless Berzerker cannot kill as many or CAUSE as many to be killed as a cold and calculating mastermind.

Many Megalomaniacs may never have killed anybody with their own hands, But history shows that they have caused far more death and despair than say, a serial murderer.

Which begs a question - who is more pleasing to Khorne
Asahara Shoko (the nut who released Sarin gas in the Tokyo subways in 1995)
Charles Manson
Adolf Hitler
Adolf Eichmann
or some nameless Soviet officer who machine gunned Stalin's enemies in some nameless forest in Siberia?

You can argue it both ways - you can say a Hitler who manipulated and terrorized people to assuage his own inferiority complex was more Slaaneshi than Khornate.

A bureaucrat and political infighter like Eichmann or an emotional manipulator like Manson was more Tzeenchian than Khornate.

A fellow like Asahara Shoko could be called more Nurglish than Khornate

The Soviet machine-gunner could be called more Khornate...

But Hitler caused more death and destruction both military and civilian, to his own and his enemies alike.

Eichmann engineered more deaths of innocents

Certainly Asahara Shoko killed more people than a simple passionate murderer would

At a certain point, all these portfolios overlap.

ashc
23-07-2010, 07:20
Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, merely that it flows.

Hunger
23-07-2010, 12:23
Kill one man you are a murderer
Kill ten men you are a monster
Kill a hundred men you are fiend
Kill a thousand men you are a hero
Kill ten thousand men you are a conqueror

Kill a million men you are a commissar...

BFTBG.

NashTrickster
23-07-2010, 15:46
I've been asking myself a question a few months ago as to the mere possibility of Khorne followers amongst the Imperial Nobility... And found the answer in the "Khorne cares not..." sentence... Noble Khornates wouldn't sully their hands by fighting/killing themselves but would probably be more "circus afficionados", the patrons of an arena where (chrono-)gladiators fight and where innocents (picked from the Underhive at random) would be brought and put to death in the most gruesome manner imaginable...

Those "Noble" Khornates would ironically fall short of the "noble warrior" aspect, but they'd probably be less bonkers than the "kill maim burn!" ones.

Also, the ways of the Spyrers in Necromunda could fit with a noble-centered Khornate cult.

SlightlyEstranged
23-07-2010, 16:44
I think that would be more of a Slaaneshi thing though.

They would be enjoying the spectacle and not be part of the blind rage or even anger. Too much personal enjoyment with watching in arenas as opposed to being IN the arena.

Clockwork-Knight
23-07-2010, 16:57
Nobles start manhunts with their superior weapons or just ritually kill a slave they bougth cheaply.

This sort of decadence strengthens both Khorne and Slaanesh.

Muad'Dib
23-07-2010, 20:07
I think that would be more of a Slaaneshi thing though.

They would be enjoying the spectacle and not be part of the blind rage or even anger. Too much personal enjoyment with watching in arenas as opposed to being IN the arena.


I guess the way the establishment would develop would eventually lead them to either of the gods - if they would start to be taking part in the combats, themselves, it's Khorne for them sooner or later. If they merely watch and then devote themselves to parties/orgies afterwards, they will attract the attention of Slaanesh.

ashc
23-07-2010, 20:16
I guess the way the establishment would develop would eventually lead them to either of the gods - if they would start to be taking part in the combats, themselves, it's Khorne for them sooner or later. If they merely watch and then devote themselves to parties/orgies afterwards, they will attract the attention of Slaanesh.

And the ones orchestrating their downfall will go to Tzeentch, bwahaha!

Horus_Lupercal
23-07-2010, 22:56
SPOILER ALERT HAMMER OF DAEMONS........................................... ....




in hammer of daemons by ben counter, one of the main charecters is a very rational warlord of khorne, his name is duke venalitor, and yes he can go all blood crazed and get choppy on somebody, but most of the time he is very cool and collective. he organizes the capture of a number of planets the capture and enslavment of 2 greyknights, and the covert war against a greater daemon." You could cut my heart out right now kill every last thing on this ship, as long as you did it in the name of khorne" Duke venilator to justicar alaric.

TheMav80
24-07-2010, 16:09
I guess the way the establishment would develop would eventually lead them to either of the gods - if they would start to be taking part in the combats, themselves, it's Khorne for them sooner or later. If they merely watch and then devote themselves to parties/orgies afterwards, they will attract the attention of Slaanesh.

Isn't it in one of the books somewhere that Slaanesh's power is theoretically on the rise?

Slaanesh is the god of excess...and what do all Slaanesh's fellow gods lead to? Excess in some form or another. So that in the end the worship of all the other gods to the extreme grants a small amount of power to Slaanesh as well.

TrooperTino
24-07-2010, 16:22
Isn't khorne the god of pride, honour and "warrior codex", too? I remember things like sparing enemys that fought well and honourable, not killing unarmed "innocents" or victims when theres no challange in fighting/beating them... of course the mindless slaughter is an aspect of being a warrior, too. But I miss the respekt for enemy warriors that fought well, which I think is an important part of khorne.

The Devourer
24-07-2010, 16:25
Nah Slaanesh is more specific than that. He/she/it (possibly at the same time) gets power from excessive senses.

Clockwork-Knight
24-07-2010, 16:53
Isn't khorne the god of pride, honour and "warrior codex", too? I remember things like sparing enemys that fought well and honourable, not killing unarmed "innocents" or victims when theres no challange in fighting/beating them... of course the mindless slaughter is an aspect of being a warrior, too. But I miss the respekt for enemy warriors that fought well, which I think is an important part of khorne.So far, this has been debunked. Khorne has and will always be only a god of slaughter. His followers can have pride, honour and some kind of warrior codex. Khorne neither forbids it, nor does he care, as long as babies and women, Khorne is pleased and will give out "gifts".

Scribe of Khorne
24-07-2010, 17:04
The issue is the amount of history, fluff, and information that has been compiled over the span of the games background.

While there was an initial focus on opposed concepts between each of the gods in pairs (khorne as death, slaanesh as life for example) there was also the concept of emotional fuel, and then the more modern approach of actions being linked to emotions, letting the Chaos gods cast a wider net, which makes sense because as everyone says if it was only the most out there cultists that fueled the gods, they wouldnt have the pull they need.

At this point I think you have to take the big net approach, where Khorne pulls on those who are honourable, in warrior cults, duelists, and so on, but at His most pure, hes about destruction of everything.

X-Porter
24-07-2010, 17:11
Why is it that after reading through this thread I'm left with the feeling that the average poster has a better eye for background than the GW writers?

Massey's post regarding how different cultures see Khorne, as well as Hunger's example of the knightly order are excellent examples of the multifaceted nature of the Chaos Gods and the slippery slope that leads to them.

There used to be a lot of great grey-area to play with in the 40K universe. Now we seem to get flat cartoon bad guys....

Clockwork-Knight
24-07-2010, 17:34
Were the chaos gods however ever different from their early mentioning in 1st edition?

Their followers come in a myriad facets. The chaos gods however remain the insane and yet only semi-sentient warp storms that bestow gifts of uncertain usability to those who strife to please them.

TrooperTino
24-07-2010, 19:03
So far, this has been debunked. Khorne has and will always be only a god of slaughter. His followers can have pride, honour and some kind of warrior codex. Khorne neither forbids it, nor does he care, as long as babies and women, Khorne is pleased and will give out "gifts".

I wouldn't go so far and call Khorne a god of honour, but a god of only slaughter neither. That all khorne followers in plain sight of the average fan are mindless killers is, in my opinion, just a clear distinction.
Khorne=maim,burn,kill
But there has to by a distinction between killing a great warrior of equal power to you in a fair fight, or killing just "someone" who is much weaker, in the eyes of Khorne. Both please him, but the one who goes for quality of opponents instead of quantity earns more respekt/gifts. This of course is just personal opinion :)


At this point I think you have to take the big net approach, where Khorne pulls on those who are honourable, in warrior cults, duelists, and so on, but at His most pure, hes about destruction of everything.

I like that. In the purest the warrior destroys. That is what war is primary for, to destroy. But like every war has many "secondary" objectives, to khorne there are more qualitys in a warrior than the pure destruction he causes. Pride is an emotion (or kind of) after all...

hmmm... Begs the question what about the pride of loyal astartes. I think there is some hole in my thinking, but I like khorne as a god of slaughter AND warrior pride and honour. :eyebrows:

Stonerhino
25-07-2010, 20:57
Kill one man you are a murderer. Kill one million and it is a mere statistic.
Khorne cares not for statistics!Actualy he does. One of Khorne's first deamon Princes was Doombreed. Who was a warlord that ravaged entire nations on Earth. "His acts of genecide and murder pleased the young god Khorne, who rewarded him and made him one of his first Daemon Princes"~2nd ed Codex Chaos.

Askil the Undecided
25-07-2010, 21:25
Well obviously Khorne rewards the leaders, otherwise he'd demand that all of his followers fought alone so they didn't steal the credit for anyone else's actions.

Of course Khornates claim credit for their follower's deeds they're just less inclined to doing so without getting their share of the fighting done too in most cases.

Zweischneid
26-07-2010, 08:31
I like that. In the purest the warrior destroys. That is what war is primary for, to destroy. But like every war has many "secondary" objectives, to khorne there are more qualitys in a warrior than the pure destruction he causes. Pride is an emotion (or kind of) after all...

hmmm... Begs the question what about the pride of loyal astartes. I think there is some hole in my thinking, but I like khorne as a god of slaughter AND warrior pride and honour. :eyebrows:

Well. If thats how you like him, more power to you. But as has been pointed out, there is no indication in the written 40k background that would support this.

As some of the quotes back in this thread make plain, many warriors with strong senses of pride, honor or a "warriors code" are drawn to to Khorne, just as likely many noble Artists and Entertainers are drawn to Slaneesh or well-intentioned Savants and Scholars might fall for Tzeentch.

But to the Khorne the god himself, this doesn't matter. Or, it only matters in the sense that it lures in more followers who spill blood in his name for one reason or another.

Thus the important distinction between the Khorne the Blood God and the followers of Khorne who might be in the process of slipping from higher ideals.

Also, it is worthwhile again to point out that Khorne's greatest Champion and the ultimate embodiment of his will is called "the Betrayer" and for good reason. Kharn is the ultimate Khorne Champion precisely because he has discarded with any pretense of loyalty, faction or warriors code. He simply slays whatever happens to be in reach of his mighty Chainaxe. Even regular Berzerkers are not "Khornite enough" in a sense that they still do not (usually) kill each other and fight together.

From whatever place a Khornite follower might have started from, getting closer to Khorne means inevitably becoming more like "the Betrayer"