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View Full Version : Wizards on the front line!



pootleberry
19-07-2010, 08:48
My specific problem is with using Teclis but it's a problem experienced by most armies.

Are wizards safer out of a unit? I know they can be targetted by shooting, especially stone throwers, but having them on the front rank of a unit is suicide for them if they're charged. I think it's almost safer for them to accept a challenge as to deny one invites six models to attack due to the stepping up rule. Unless I can obliterate the charging unit with missile fire/magic then Teclis is one extremely dead elf...

How are people dealing with this? Are they placing their wizards right on the extreme edge of the front rank?

Ultimate Life Form
19-07-2010, 08:56
but having them on the front rank of a unit is suicide for them if they're charged.

Solution: Don't let him be charged. Mages usually start out in a unit for the protection it offers, but when things heat up they may well opt to retreat to a safe spot, usually behind the unit they bailed out from. Stray mages lead a dangerous life so it's important to keep them protected, but one must also know when it's time to jump ship. And since the new rules also grant a look out sir roll for characters near units, this is even more viable than before. Or park them behind a building as many spells don't require LoS anymore.

That being said, you can of course also have your mage sneak around the map, it happens ever so often, as single models they're very mobile and can avoid LoS by dancing around enemy units while roasting them, but with the new increased charge ranges it's slightly more dangerous.

For obvious reasons hiding in a forest is no longer a good idea for mages.

Crovax20
19-07-2010, 09:30
Isn't it now possible to have a mage sit behind a unit and still have line of sight to whatever and cast magic missiles etc? You would have hardcover and a 4+ look out sir..

Avian
19-07-2010, 09:39
That is possible, yes, though he gets no protection from spells.

Leogun_91
19-07-2010, 09:48
I give my lv4 orc a wyvern and a lv2 goblin shaman isn't too great a loss even if my oponent directs a few attacks on it, if he directs to many it will eat up his CR anyways.

In my empire army it's a little bit harder but I can always give him a powerscroll/powerstone and suicide flame my oponent before he arrives (or if I'm lucky with my spells make dish out the hurt to models in CC with him). Failing that I'll get a mounted wizard and a unit of Outriders.

My WoC army will use a really survivable Sorcerer Tzarina/Lord (3+ward and being unable to take more then one wound per attack) riding a flying tower of Tzeentch (Counts as Chaos Dragon) and will challenge whenever she fights (whenever she wants it or not).

My Dwarfs never had that problem.

My Daemons play in a different game system so they mainly try to have things that are more imidient threaths then themselves to soak the fire and are more then capable to handle themselves in CC.

SideshowLucifer
19-07-2010, 13:29
I generaly keep one seperate and on a mount with a good ward save and one in a large unit.

Mandragola
19-07-2010, 16:02
I play empire myself. My feeling is that I can't expect to keep my wizard out of combat so I should accept that he'll be fighting and make the most of it.

My plan is fairly straight forward. Van Horstmann's. I issue a challenge, and nobody is worse than my wizard in combat (or if they are they won't kill him anyway). In a challenge he won't have 12 guys poking spears into him and he might even get to play at being a chaos lord or something.

I might give the guy a minor magic weapon and a couple of other toys if I can afford it. Main problem I see is if my opponent accepts the challenge with his own wizard.

pootleberry
19-07-2010, 16:15
I've remembered the one problem with hanging around on the flanks of a unit, mainly missile based, is that the unit can use its musician to reform and then pepper my mage. Probably best to stick him in a cheap unit and then keep them all out of trouble.

vodrake
19-07-2010, 16:48
If your on foot just sit inside a building with a unit. Since you get to choose which 10 models fight if somebody charges you just, you know, pick 10 other guys. Your always stubborn whille defending a building so even if your infantry sucks at least your stubborn even if your getting your ass kicked.

[edit] Question concerning what I just posted. Can you use sniper spells that require line of sight?

Mandragola
19-07-2010, 17:23
Buildings seem a bit situational to me. Sometimes it will be a good plan but not always. You need a building in the right place (depending on lore, lots of spells have 12" range). There might not be any building on the map, or it might be on the wrong place, or the other guy might send in 10 chaos warriors against your 10 men at arms. Ultimately a building can buy you some time, but eventually the other guy can come in and kill your wizard if he wants to. The building can't get out of the way.

On the other hand, standing behind a building might be a decent plan a lot of the time for wizards who don't need LoS.

I think that the best type of unit for a wizard to be in, if he doesn't want to fight at all, is a unit that's good at staying out of combat. Fast cavalry are ideal, though they might attract attention if the wizard is with them, and shooty skirmishers are another good option. Either unit can run around behind and between your infantry blocks and avoid most fights. You can easily aim the wizard in the required direction if he's with a unit that swivels around freely and isn't too fussed about its own facing.

Sigmar's Benediction
19-07-2010, 18:16
Hi

I think it is not a option to hide him i a building as the rules clearly state that characters wil always fight if the building is charged voor melee combat.

Sigmar's Benediction

NitrosOkay
19-07-2010, 18:39
I'm pretty sure you can move him to the back ranks when the combat starts. Little sidebar called "I think I'll sit this one out chaps" in characters.

pootleberry
20-07-2010, 11:52
I was excited when i read your post NitrosOkay but unfortunately it's just an aside next to the Make Way rule. You can always get your character into combat by forcing models out of the way but you can't disengage a character once they're locked into close combat.

Lord of the End Times
20-07-2010, 15:47
This is a problem. My damsels were not feeling the love in my last few games for precisely this problem. Bretonnians are allowed to hide in the middle of a lance formation but as I discovered, miscasting and blowing up a whole unit of knights is not a good thing. Similarly, standing proud in the front rank of a unit of men at arms is bad for her health when going one on one with the forces of evil.
I have come to the same conclusion as pootleberry: Stick them in a cheap, non combat unit (think archers etc) and try and keep them all away from close combat. Alternatively, if you have full command and two other characters you could stick your mage in the second rank as there would be no room at the front (assuming 5 wide). This is an awfully expensive target though, and only viable for very few armies.

RanaldLoec
20-07-2010, 17:06
In the brb unless it specific says you need line of sight of the new spells do not require line of sight only that the Target lies in the wizards front arc.

RanaldLoec
20-07-2010, 19:20
In the brb unless it specific says you need line of sight of the new spells do not require line of sight only that the Target lies in the wizards front arc.

pootleberry
21-07-2010, 08:27
Correct. I wonder if direct damage, rather than magic missles, will be seen more due to people trying to keep their mages out of harms way (except for Slann staying in second rank).

I'll be trying a large block of archers and go for lists with long-range spells to compliment the 30" longbows. Also, I might take them 6-7 wide so that I can stick the mage at the end of the line farthest from any action. I wonder if 10 wide and three ranks might be an option so that the arches attack in three ranks with a re-roll to hit against most enemies? Also, this unit would only lose 5 shots due to the volley fire rule.

As an aside, once the character is within the unit can he move within the unit on the next turn? Or will he have to jump out of the unit and then back in in order to take up another position within the unit?