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cornonthecob
19-07-2010, 09:03
Wouldn't a giant plasma gun be better then a giant powerfist ?

The giant chainsword attatched to your giant robots arm is only good against another giant robot , but you could have a massive cannon that destroys an entire city with each shot ?

Orks stompas make sense , orks are violent and think that everything needs to have choppas , but an imperium titan ? The giant powerfist just doesn't make sense.

pinegulf
19-07-2010, 09:07
Becouse it looks cool?

Petay1985
19-07-2010, 09:13
Becouse it looks cool?

I think that 'pinegulf' has said all that needs to be said on the matter! But i do concur with the OP that ranged weaponry does seem more, dare i say it, logical for a Titan.

malika
19-07-2010, 09:22
A Titan itself isn't very logical. Aircraft such as fighters or bombers would be the way to go.

Brother Luctus
19-07-2010, 09:39
A Titan itself isn't very logical. Aircraft such as fighters or bombers would be the way to go.


I wouldn’t say that at all. A Titan will be a more then awesome war machine on any battlefield; it can achieve pretty much what bombers can with the huge addition of being able to take and hold territory.

MistaGav
19-07-2010, 09:47
It's a bit like the thread I made a while back on why do we have CQC and it pretty much boils down to rule of cool. It doesn't make much sense but then again a lot of 40k doesn't make sense so you may as well push the crazy meter into 11.

imperial90
19-07-2010, 10:14
I dont know if I read your thread MistaGav, but ive read plenty of threads on the same issue and people give alot more reasons then simply rule of cool, even if it is a main one.

As to the titans, not sure though, probably entirely rule of cool since while i can see the advantage of it, being that your too close for other titans to use said super guns, your gonna have to be awfully sneaky to get that close, since other then warhounds, titans arent exactly renowned for their speed while they are renowned for their range and targeting apparatus's

MistaGav
19-07-2010, 10:26
It was this thread: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263707

I mean there were other reasons besides rule of cool such as variety model wise and gameplay wise. Like you just said, a titan is pretty slow and it's not hard to spot a giant walker in the battlefield epsecially one that is charging with a fist. Also a titan should really be a long ranged weapon and having to resort to close combat means you've done something wrong!

Askil the Undecided
19-07-2010, 10:34
It could be handy for, something along the lines of making a big hole in something you don't care to utterly destroy like a wall of a held city you might have to subsequently defend?

Also close combat weapons have some big pluses:

A) They don't run out of ammo in the same sense as a gun (you can still destroy with the jagged club of an out-of-fuel chainblade or the huge hammer of an unfielded powerfist)

B) They aren't likely to be damaged if you hit something with them having run out of ammo like a gun might.

C) They can be used at close range to make (smaller) holes in things that you don't want to blow up an kill you/utterly annihilate/damage too badly.

D) You don't need a working fancy-pants targetting system to punch a gargant in the head.

E) The option of close quarters combat minimises the effectiveness of an enemies long range firepower.

Post
19-07-2010, 11:22
*Frown*

Titan Melee weapons rarely appear in the fluff at all these days. GW probably decided that they were kinda embarassing.

arch_inquisitor
19-07-2010, 11:50
When you think about it on a larger scale it makes perfect sense.
Titans are almost never fielded alone, so one TCC isn't going to hurt the unit. Further more a TCC in a Titan unit gives it some form of defense when one or two of that horde of Gargants breaks though the minimum range of the heavier guns. Even just a few Gargants running a muck inside the min range can cause havoc to the heavier titans unless something can put them down quickly and reliably. Other situations that come to mind are against bio titans, but maybe I was just luck that time.

Kage2020
19-07-2010, 12:46
Best time to use melee combat is when the enemy isn't expecting it. Sounds trite, I know, but there has to be something psychological about expecting a protracted long-range conflict using assault rifles, missile launchers etc., only to have the bugger over there in personal armour that's practically as tough as a tank lay into you with the business end of a lumberjack's weapon. They don't even have the politeness to sing lumberjack songs about it.

Might be the same "logic" for Titans.

Yeah, though, Rule of Cool is about the only answer that you need with the idea that it's basically a medieval wargame with (sharks with) frickin' lazers on their backs. You can just imagine it now. Noble knights with standards flying while the plebs/troops rush on, backed up by support weaponry/mangonels/ballistae and, of course, the 30 yard-tall super knight powered by steam engines... Devastator Smash!

Kage

Sai-Lauren
19-07-2010, 13:00
Remember, Titan melee combat occurs inside the void shields, if your CC Titan charges a support one (especially if it's managed to blind-side it), you've a high chance of taking it out without suffering too much damage in return (save for those really bad days when you punch it in the ribs and breach the reactor ;)).

Two support titans slugging it out would likely batter each other into scrap metal and achieve little else, and the missed shots would also devastate the surrounding area (something Epic and 40k don't really care about - but those shots have to land somewhere).

FrankieKhainor
19-07-2010, 13:13
Two support titans slugging it out would likely batter each other into scrap metal and achieve little else, and the missed shots would also devastate the surrounding area (something Epic and 40k don't really care about - but those shots have to land somewhere).

Titans do not want to miss. Imagine - a 80 tonne fist thing swinging away from a 1000 tonne machine (these are estimates), but gaining speed and momentum. Suddenly, the eldar revenant darts out the way. There is a huge creaking sound... The rest of the titan follows the fist into the ground. Boom! Like the fallen giant template but much, much bigger.
But, if they were trying to hit a stompa etc, then it's very useful. Why bother wasting precious ammo or power shooting it. Just give it a swipe. Then, you have flying stompa.
I do agree though that against infantry, tanks and even super heavies, a massive fist mounted up here can't reach down and poke the super heavy. Imagine though, the kick attack. Suddenly, the cobras are whirling backwards through the air.
Or, a kick between the legs. I assume that the driver of a titan would get some pain feedback.

Sai-Lauren
19-07-2010, 13:21
Well, I'd imagine all Titan weapons have stabilisers, recoil and shock-absorbers, counterbalances and so on - and that at least 50% of a Princeps training is involved in teaching him (or her) not to put their Titan face first in the mud when doing anything more complicated than standing still ;) (half the reason they're bipedal IMO, the MIU's can then just feed sensory information directly into the Princeps brain and let him use his own natural balance, movement etc).

But an Eldar titan dodging around the blow of an Imperial one, then hitting it whilst it's momentarily off balance is exactly how I see them fighting - a heavyweight boxer against a martial artist.

Iracundus
19-07-2010, 13:32
The old Epic 2nd edition rules had finer differentiation between Titan CCWs. Power fists enabled a roll off between the players, with the Power Fist owner having a +1 (or +2 bonus if Tyranid Razor Claws). If the Power Fist won, one damage location would take maximum damage, representing it being crushed or torn off by the fist. If the rolls tied, normal damage was rolled. If the defender won, then no damage was inflicted as the defender had avoided the fist's grip. This suggests the Power Fist use on Titans is more about grabbing and crushing rather than punching.

Chainfists in Epic were simpler, and just had a +2 to damage rolls (and a bonus to the CAF which was used to resolve the CC), so they were less variable than power fists. In many ways they were deadlier due to their greater reliability. After all, it just needed to make contact to do damage and didn't need to rely on getting a firm grip.

Tonberry
19-07-2010, 13:59
*Frown*

Titan Melee weapons rarely appear in the fluff at all these days. GW probably decided that they were kinda embarassing.

Well... Titanicus has a couple of Titan on Titan fistycuffs. Ignoring all common sense factors, they do it because it's generally portrayed as more effective than shooting...yeah...:wtf:

For example, there's a battle between two chaos warhounds and an Imperial titan (I think a warlord).

Basically they spend a while shooting at eachother with little effect, eventually the Imperial titan kills one warhound with shooting, so the remaining two charge at eachother for some reason. The warhound stabs the warlord with a trident speary thing, which does more than all of its previous shooting, then the warlord bitch-slaps the warhound back to the eye of terror with a degree of efficiency much greater than any of its city-levelling weapons...

TL/DR robots with giant fists and chainsaws are cool.

mightymconeshot
19-07-2010, 14:25
i see it more being like the storm of iron fit. where they just are continously stepping at each other and eventual end up there. Some other reason is that you could punch/gouge holes in buildings without destroying them. See the random floor of a command center that is needed and then airdrop troops in without leveling it or fighting the fortified defenses at the top or bottom.
I dont think that CCW were supposed to be a big thing maybe just limited to a few. And I always felt that they needed a transport titan. Something to take a company of troops in the groin. or some other area that could hold a large number. the titan reaches a target then punches open a hole for them to zipline or jumppack across

Tonberry
19-07-2010, 14:35
I dont think that CCW were supposed to be a big thing maybe just limited to a few. And I always felt that they needed a transport titan. Something to take a company of troops in the groin. or some other area that could hold a large number. the titan reaches a target then punches open a hole for them to zipline or jumppack across

Imperator titans have castles on their backs full of dudes.

cornonthecob
19-07-2010, 14:59
Imperator titans have castles on their backs full of dudes.

And can transport people in its feet.

gitburna
19-07-2010, 15:27
I dont think that CCW were supposed to be a big thing maybe just limited to a few. And I always felt that they needed a transport titan. Something to take a company of troops in the groin. or some other area that could hold a large number. the titan reaches a target then punches open a hole for them to zipline or jumppack across

Titans in the old days (where titans were very much the focus of Epic) used to be able to get transport fist and transport heads they were called "corvus assault pods" or something similar. They basically transported a couple of squads of terminators or similar right into the enemy heart.

The other point about titan CCW - presumably they do come in quite handy as void shields tend to soak up a lot of fire and the fight can often descend to (very) short ranges. Add a variety of weapon fits into that - back in the day vulcan megabolters, infernocannons and gatling blasters weren't so great at taking out enemy vehicles, let alone titans and maybe shorter and longer ranged weapons and you have lots of scope for different types of combat. Add into that the fact that you can have wierd "Sub hunt" or ambush type combat going on with titans somehow able to evade each other in large city environments and you have a very variable battlefield.

Maybe the Eldar and Orks have the best idea of it, mounting shuriken cannons or other guns onto their closecombat weapons for a bit of extra utility.

gwarsh41
19-07-2010, 15:35
If you are fighting against something with a melee gargantuan creature, it can lock a warhound and possibly reaver titan in CC. If you dont have a CC weapon, you could be in some serious trouble.
All of the daemon gargantuan creatutres deep strike. Some moving up to 20" in the movement phase.

canucklhead
19-07-2010, 16:41
Titans are an anachronism in Sci Fi Warfare. They are uber cool, and have all the bells and whistles, but are absolutely useless and moot in any kind of reality. One squadron of fighter bombers, each carrying a Warp missile, and your vaunted Imperator is a pile of scrap. Air superiority is the death knell of land bound armour. Ask a tank commander today what scares him. It's the Apache and the A-10 and their equivalents.

The simple truth is that titans make awesome miniatures, have character and a humanity of design that is simply too tempting to pass up.

Ok, I have my asbestos shorts on, go ahead and flame away on how titans are not just giant targets for everything.

TheShadowCow
19-07-2010, 19:39
Titans are an anachronism in Sci Fi Warfare. They are uber cool, and have all the bells and whistles, but are absolutely useless and moot in any kind of reality. One squadron of fighter bombers, each carrying a Warp missile, and your vaunted Imperator is a pile of scrap. Air superiority is the death knell of land bound armour. Ask a tank commander today what scares him. It's the Apache and the A-10 and their equivalents.

The simple truth is that titans make awesome miniatures, have character and a humanity of design that is simply too tempting to pass up.

Ok, I have my asbestos shorts on, go ahead and flame away on how titans are not just giant targets for everything.

I think the way to reconcile this is simply that the TCW are not the primary weapons, but they are useful to have none the less. Sure, by and large you're much better off shooting at whatever is in front of you, but as other posters have said what happens when you want to make a fist-sized hole in that Hive, or when you want to cut open and stride into a landed starship of some sort, or when that Tyranid Hierophant springs up in front of you?

Think of it as a grenade. Nine times out of ten, you use your rifle and not your grenade... but every so often you are *really* glad you have the grenade along as well.

imperial90
19-07-2010, 19:55
The point of those void shields is exactly to make all that vaunted air superiority useless no? I mean if they can hold up to being blasted by weapons that would turn blocks of cities into nothing but ash without any very noticeable strain, without that sort of pressure being constantly applied said bombers would accomplish very little, not to mention im pretty sure that the larger titans have dedicated AA weaponry to go along with those powerful shields

Green-is-best
19-07-2010, 20:15
I mean if they can hold up to being blasted by weapons that would turn blocks of cities into nothing but ash

You mean like airplanes have done to cities for the last 70 years?

As has been said in this thread several times, the reason titans have CCWs is because giant robots punching things are awesome, nothing more nothing less.

The practical considerations are a bit silly. Need a hole in something? Shoot it with a rocket. Biotitan coming at you? Shoot it with a rocket. If it is agile enough to get close to a titan before it can be shot, its agile enough to get behind it and negate the close combat weapon anyway.

Gustovic
19-07-2010, 21:06
Titan CCW?
They're mainly used in urban warfare, where other titans are hiding and hunting you.
Air superiority?
First, none of the Imperial Aircraft carry Deathstrike Missiles, only titans and the chimera based carriers.
Second, titans are never alone in the battlefield, even fighting only other titans (there are always companies of Skitarii ready to act when necessary). They are always accompanied by their aircraft and AA weapons.

imperial90
19-07-2010, 21:58
You mean those planes which after one bombing run have to return to base to rearm while that titan can sit there all day bombarding you with those weapons?

Green-is-best
19-07-2010, 22:02
You mean those planes which after one bombing run have to return to base to rearm while that titan can sit there all day bombarding you with those weapons?

I'm not sure what that has to do with void shields.

MajorWesJanson
19-07-2010, 22:19
Titans have 3 major targets in combat:
Other titans/superheavy units
Smaller vehicles and infantry (mainly assigned to scout titans)
Fortifications

The last is the most logical place for Titan CCWs to be effective. While ranged weapons are useful, CCWs allow for sustained damage rather than single hits. It's also why they do a lot of damage to other titans. anged weapons can penetrate, but CCWs can rip, tear, and crush. If they get in close enough, CCWs allow for more damage over a larger area of the target. Plus, fighting fortifications and other superheavies, getting in to CCW range means many ranged weapons will be unable to bear on the target. Especially true of fortifications, that cannot move to avoid the titan.

Hellebore
19-07-2010, 23:44
You mean those planes which after one bombing run have to return to base to rearm while that titan can sit there all day bombarding you with those weapons?

Because if you have the technology to run void shields all day and night whilst your titan is sitting there pounding away your aircraft STILL require rearming and refuelling after one bombing run?

Hellebore

Jackmojo
20-07-2010, 06:09
Titans are an anachronism in Sci Fi Warfare. They are uber cool, and have all the bells and whistles, but are absolutely useless and moot in any kind of reality. One squadron of fighter bombers, each carrying a Warp missile, and your vaunted Imperator is a pile of scrap. Air superiority is the death knell of land bound armour. Ask a tank commander today what scares him. It's the Apache and the A-10 and their equivalents.

Aircraft are an anachronism in Sci Fi Warfare. They are uber cool, and have all the bells and whistles, but are absolutely useless and moot in any kind of reality. One squadron of Imperial Navy Escorts, each carrying untold firepower, and your vaunted Fighter Bomber is a pile of scrap. Orbital Superiority is the death knell of Atmospheric flight. Ask the Apache and the A-10 pilots today what scares them. It's the F-22 and their equivalents.

;)

Jack

Corax
20-07-2010, 06:45
Ok, I have my asbestos shorts on, go ahead and flame away on how titans are not just giant targets for everything.

Not going to flame you, but I do have to ask: why do you have to go and muddy the waters of a perfectly good speculation session with tangential details like actual facts? :angel:

As for why Titans have CC weapons:
Because the only thing cooler than giant bipedal warmachines blasting the bejeebus out of each other with energy cannons is giant bipedal warmachines bashing the bejeebus out of each other with giant fists!

f2k
20-07-2010, 08:28
The point of those void shields is exactly to make all that vaunted air superiority useless no? I mean if they can hold up to being blasted by weapons that would turn blocks of cities into nothing but ash without any very noticeable strain, without that sort of pressure being constantly applied said bombers would accomplish very little, not to mention im pretty sure that the larger titans have dedicated AA weaponry to go along with those powerful shields

It’s been a while since I’ve looked at the Epic rules. But in the olden days, as I recall it, void shields could be stripped by any weapon with a negative save-modifier. Basically battle cannons and up... So void shields are not exactly that durable. And they’re not that easy to get going once they’ve gone down...

In any case, airpower is not what scares the pants of a titan-crew. It’s the long ranged Warp missiles they’re worrying about...

canucklhead
20-07-2010, 10:42
Touche master Corax.

@ Jackmojo. Orbital bombardment is going to tear apart a titan as quickly as any air based force.

Void shields and their equivalents are neat and all, but not foolproof. And the titan warp missile is purpose built to bypass them and directly damage a titan.

Titans are wicked cool. They are even cooler with giant wrecking balls and swords and the like. because if you are going to have a game where entire city blacks walk around shoot handwavium at each other, then you might as well slap on a 200 foot long chainsaw as well.

Iracundus
20-07-2010, 10:48
It’s been a while since I’ve looked at the Epic rules. But in the olden days, as I recall it, void shields could be stripped by any weapon with a negative save-modifier. Basically battle cannons and up... So void shields are not exactly that durable. And they’re not that easy to get going once they’ve gone down...

In any case, airpower is not what scares the pants of a titan-crew. It’s the long ranged Warp missiles they’re worrying about...

Warp missiles were described as extremely rare, and they also scattered twice off the template, meaning they were best used against big blockish targets like Gargants rather than spindly ones like the Eldar Titans or the Tyranid Bio-Titans. Warp missiles are definitely not standard issue on the average aerospace craft of the Imperium.

In the old Epic, anything with a save modifier could down shields, meaning anything autocannon and up. Shield regeneration was on 5+ per shield, with the Imperator having the option to channel more power to shields, raising them on 4+. An Imperator had 12 shields, so on average it would restore 4 shields a turn, up to 6 a turn. Its top mounted defence laser had AA capability and was essentially a Volcano cannon. All this means it takes a coordinated volley of first multiple shots and finally good save modifier to best destroy an Imperial Titan. Relying on just single powerful shots would not down the shields fast enough.

Gingerwerewolf
20-07-2010, 11:04
Ive always assumed the fighting happened in the following order:

Evil Badguys take over an Imperial System. Boo hiss!

Imperium to the rescue! Hurrah!

In Jump the Fleet of the Imperium including a vast quantity Space Fighter Squadrons.
Fighter Squadrons Blow the bag guys space ships up, giving the Imperium Intra-System Superiority.
Imperial Fighter Squadrons move to Disable the Satellite and Low Orbit Defenses
Imperial Ships move into High Orbit.
Imperial Ships Bomb the **** out of the Anti Aircraft Batteries on the ground and Airports
Imperial Ships Release all their Aircraft to gain Air Superiority.
Imperium, once it has gained Air Superiority, drops in its Troops Titans etc.

Thus Epic and 40k games take place in the time period after the Air Battles have been won, thus Big Chuffing Walking machines are not only cool but amazing at take and hold. Most importantly though there shouldnt be a large airforce available to kill the Big Targets like the Warlord Titans.

IMO Best way to get rid of a stationary Titan protected by a shedload of Void Fields is rip its legs off in close combat. Thus Close Combat Weapons.

I had a Close Combat Behemoth Warlord Titan in my chaos Force for Epic 2nd Edition. With a tail, Close combat heads and arms and everything. Got more kills with that bad boy than any of my other troops!

x-esiv-4c
20-07-2010, 11:34
A chain fist the size of a building.

That pretty much sums it up.

Sai-Lauren
20-07-2010, 12:20
Ive always assumed the fighting happened in the following order:

Evil Badguys take over an Imperial System. Boo hiss!

Imperium to the rescue! Hurrah!

In Jump the Fleet of the Imperium including a vast quantity Space Fighter Squadrons.
Fighter Squadrons Blow the bag guys space ships up, giving the Imperium Intra-System Superiority.
Imperial Fighter Squadrons move to Disable the Satellite and Low Orbit Defenses
Imperial Ships move into High Orbit.
Imperial Ships Bomb the **** out of the Anti Aircraft Batteries on the ground and Airports
Imperial Ships Release all their Aircraft to gain Air Superiority.
Imperium, once it has gained Air Superiority, drops in its Troops Titans etc.

Thus Epic and 40k games take place in the time period after the Air Battles have been won, thus Big Chuffing Walking machines are not only cool but amazing at take and hold. Most importantly though there shouldnt be a large airforce available to kill the Big Targets like the Warlord Titans.

IMO Best way to get rid of a stationary Titan protected by a shedload of Void Fields is rip its legs off in close combat. Thus Close Combat Weapons.

More like

1) In Jump the Fleet of the Imperium (fighters aren't warp capable).
2) Imperial fleet makes it in system, in a running fight against enemy vessels.
3) Some fleet assets disable/ capture orbital facilities, whilst the rest of the fleet hunt down enemy vessels still operating in system and protect troop transport and supply convoys.
4) Using fast low orbit passes (to minimise the effects of ground fire) for ortillery fire and release of commandos/marines if available/special forces in drop pods and shuttles (sorry, but you're hitting nothing from high orbit), a hole is made in the planetary defence net, and ground troops are shuttle dropped with massed air support.
5) The ground troops establish a beachhead and slowly spread out to conquer the planet, disabling or capturing orbital defences as they go to allow the fleet more space to operate in a ground support role, and seizing port facilities to allow the heavier support equipment to be brought down, and a command/ supply/ medical/ repair centre to be established, whilst Navy fighters and Bombers are brought down to newly established planet side airbases to operate without having to maintain sufficient fuel supplies to back to orbit.

A game of 40k can occur at any time from step 2 on (boarding actions), Epic (and AI) from step 4, with Titans and Super-Heavies from step 5.

And of course, the Imperium is quite often on the offensive, not just reconquering worlds they've lost.


A chain fist the size of a building.

That pretty much sums it up.

Sigh.

Titans really aren't that big (and we've had so many threads on it before, it's not worth repeating the arguments) - at best a Warlord's chainfist (well, the old plastic one that came with the 1st version of the Warlords :)) is about the length and height of a transit van.

Malice313
20-07-2010, 12:26
Why are modern assault rifles equipped with bayonets? Could it be that once you run out of awesomely destructive ammunition the bayonet makes the weapon a bit better than a some what awkward club?

Clockwork-Knight
20-07-2010, 12:54
Against a guy with a fully loaded gun, the bayonet is still useless.
Ideally, if you run out of bullets (and you're still alive), you take the remaining ammo of your dead fellows, so that you don't have to fight like a caveman.

Even Bruce Lee knew that guns always win over melee.

Malice313
20-07-2010, 14:31
Against a guy with a fully loaded gun, the bayonet is still useless.
Ideally, if you run out of bullets (and you're still alive), you take the remaining ammo of your dead fellows, so that you don't have to fight like a caveman.

And when they are all empty?:angel:

Seriously though. Think about it. There is a bloody good reason that the knife and spear have stayed contemporaries of warfare for as long as it has existed and remains part of every arsenal from the most basic conscripts to the most elite units through out the world.

Clockwork-Knight
20-07-2010, 15:24
If they're all empty, you're toast.

Spears have been replaced by rocket launchers, and knives are to be used when you're going to die for sure.

Only elite special forces really know how to use a knive efficiently, and that's because they sneak around and try to backstab you. But in a firefight, the knive is completely useless, and then the special forces use their commando guns.

A normal soldier won't fight with a knive. They either surrender, or get shot.

El_Machinae
20-07-2010, 16:08
Titanicus had an incredible amount of CCW fighting. Much more than I expected. It was all necessitated, though, upon the idea that Titans could get into urban warfare with each other and somehow sneak up on each other.

The book had a crazy number of incidences where a titan would 'suddenly' appear within a few hundred meters of the protagonists.

x-esiv-4c
20-07-2010, 16:18
Well Sai, since everything GW produces is technically canon, then yes, titans can be really that big. I seem to remember a picture from Armies of the Imperium of a Reaver titan, amidst the ruins of an imperial city. Church steeples barely passed it's ankles.

TheShadowCow
20-07-2010, 19:06
Titanicus had an incredible amount of CCW fighting. Much more than I expected. It was all necessitated, though, upon the idea that Titans could get into urban warfare with each other and somehow sneak up on each other.

The book had a crazy number of incidences where a titan would 'suddenly' appear within a few hundred meters of the protagonists.

I suppose when you're fighting inside a Hive City and the towering structures around you are two kilometers high...

Horus_Lupercal
20-07-2010, 22:36
titan close combat weapons..... one of the coolest things in 40k is titans dueling to the death with fusion maces and power fists....
its been 7 days since we last refuelled or rearmed, we're down to 3 seconds on the vulcan blaster and 1 full power shot on our plasma gun, a big ass chaos titan steps out form behind the twisted remains of an ore refinery, it fires its plasma in haste, misses to the left, while its recharging, its vulcan cannon spools up and rips across our forward shield ark, we immediatly go to full stide and fire our last plasma shot.. hit, no damage, we let rip with our bolter.... hit no damage, we angle 3 degrees left quick... plasma hit... upper right quadrant... no damage, 50 meters to target, we engage our fusion mace, chaos titan swivels and tracks, constant vulcan bolter fire... shields holding. 1 second to close combat range, chaos titan engages it's power fist... chaos titan strikes first... plasma mount destroyed, we strike, chaos titan is destroyed. :chrome::chrome::chrome::chrome::chrome:

barrangas
21-07-2010, 04:14
I honestly don't find a TCCW that unreasonable. If your going to make a giant anthropomorphic robot, you might as well make sure the arms will hold up to smashing things.

Titans, themselves, I see as horribly impracticle.

Sai-Lauren
21-07-2010, 08:18
Well Sai, since everything GW produces is technically canon, then yes, titans can be really that big. I seem to remember a picture from Armies of the Imperium of a Reaver titan, amidst the ruins of an imperial city. Church steeples barely passed it's ankles.

So, they're both 60 feet tall (the original height of a Warlord titan in Adeptus Titanicus), and hundreds of feet tall at exactly the same time? Super heavies are thousands of tonnes and massive crews, and a few hundred tonnes and crewed by about 10 people? And the Sister of Battle in John Blanche's picture is actually a mutant, because her knee is in completely the wrong place. ;)

The art is just there to supply a general impression of the 40k universe - it's little more than propaganda, and possibly less trustworthy.

Also, Forge World have produced technical specifications for the Warhound and Reaver, which allows us to work out sizes for all the other Titans by comparison. ;)



its been 7 days since we last refuelled or rearmed, we're down to 3 seconds on the vulcan blaster and 1 full power shot on our plasma gun,

... it's 106 miles to Chicago, it's dark, and we're wearing shades.

Sorry, that was the first thing that came to mind on reading that. :D

x-esiv-4c
21-07-2010, 11:01
That's all very nice Sai but it doesn't stop the fact that Leviathans are the size of city blocks (Ork & Squat warlords suppliment) and titans hundreds of meters tall. Jervis stated that there are many truths in warhammer and technial schematics from a forgeworld may be one of them...Might not be.

I love GWs "Everything goes" policy. :D

Sai-Lauren
21-07-2010, 12:46
That's all very nice Sai but it doesn't stop the fact that Leviathans are the size of city blocks (Ork & Squat warlords suppliment) and titans hundreds of meters tall. Jervis stated that there are many truths in warhammer and technial schematics from a forgeworld may be one of them...Might not be.

Sorry, but 2nd edition Epic seriously screwed up sizes - I blame Andy Chambers personally (Leviathans carrying Super heavy squadrons when they're not that much bigger than a single SH model themselves? Emperor titans with platoons of guardsmen in the legs? :rolleyes: ).

Make a Leviathan model equivalent to putting a 40k Rhino on the table in Epic, and you might have a chance.

Forge World (the subsidiary of GW, not the planets in the 40k universe ;)), however, do at least try and make them work.

And if you do rely on fluff, then the Imperial Armour books are the most recently printed, so they'd have priority.



I love GWs "Everything goes" policy.

More like "We can't be bothered, you go do it".

x-esiv-4c
21-07-2010, 13:22
Priority has nothing to do with it Sai. The fact of the matter is that everything is valid even if contradictory.

LexxBomb
21-07-2010, 14:03
so by your logic it could be deduced that the Squats still exist as a race because The Imperium of Man is still managing to replace lost Leviathans... given that the Squats were the ones producing them... no Forge World ever made a Leviathan.

Personally I would take the fluff that was the most logical and use that as evidence. be it the newest or the oldest.

anyway back on to the discussion at hand... Close Combat weapons are vital for some Titans but not all... only the Warlord and Reaver Titans (of the Imperium) would have a real need for a close combat weapon. Given that most of the weapons a Warlord or Reaver possess are ammo dependent, it is inevitable that ammo will run out and has no one considered that maybe Titan close combat weapons are fitted because they could be the most effective anti-Titan weapons systems. Void shields do not stop slow moving objects and as such a Titan Power Fist has a much greater chance of taking down an enemy Titan then any amount of ordnance. Heck War Hounds are too small for Close combat weapons to be of any benefit both tactically and strategically. Like wise the Emperor class Titans are not suited to close range combat because of their size and that they are loaded for long range combat usually as command and control vehicles...

Iracundus
21-07-2010, 14:08
Heck War Hounds are too small for Close combat weapons to be of any benefit both tactically and strategically. Like wise the Emperor class Titans are not suited to close range combat because of their size and that they are loaded for long range combat usually as command and control vehicles...

This is not borne out by the depictions in Epic 2nd edition. Slaanesh aligned Subjugator Titans, which were about Warhound sized, were specifically oriented towards close combat and had twin power claws granting a bonus to their close combat abilities. The Khorne aligned Imperator Titan Abominatus had an array of chain blades that again boosted its close combat abilities. Even the vanilla loyalist Imperator Titan boasted an impressive CAF, even if that is more due to bulk than any specialized weaponry.

gwarsh41
21-07-2010, 14:17
so by your logic it could be deduced that the Squats still exist as a race because The Imperium of Man is still managing to replace lost Leviathans... given that the Squats were the ones producing them... no Forge World ever made a Leviathan.

You dont know that they are not around. We simply dont have them as an army any more. That doesnt mean they are all dead.

Gaargod
21-07-2010, 14:18
There's a beautiful example of titan close combat in Mechanicum.

A warhound titan is doing its thing, scouting ahead of the big titans. It senses there's something behind a building, opens fire with the mega bolter to try and scare it into the open. Instead, a Warlord titan punches through the building, rushes the warhound and punches it to the ground - then stamps on its head. Instant kill, no damage taken.



Void Shields in the fluff are a LOT more powerful than in game. Even lickle titans like warhounds have sufficient shields to resist a crazy amount of firepower. And like in the game, getting inside the shields and punching it will work a whole load better than shooting it from range (considering equal firepower).

Once you accept the idea of using titans in 40k, then close combat weapons actually do work. As others have pointed out, titans are epic fail themselves - until you take into account void shields. That allows them to take the stupid amount of punishment they would inevitably receive. So things which bypass void shields are a good idea!

T10
21-07-2010, 14:24
Wouldn't a giant plasma gun be better then a giant powerfist ?

The giant chainsword attatched to your giant robots arm is only good against another giant robot , but ...

The OP pretty much answers his own question.

-T10

LexxBomb
21-07-2010, 14:26
lol but of all the weapons that a Titan Princeps has to fear.. he fears the 2nd edition Thunder Hammer the most... gotta hate that auto penetration rule... man they toned those down for 3rd ed...

x-esiv-4c
21-07-2010, 15:05
@Lexx

"so by your logic it could be deduced that the Squats still exist as a race because The Imperium of Man is still managing to replace lost Leviathans... given that the Squats were the ones producing them... no Forge World ever made a Leviathan."

what? You are deducing from my logic that squats still exist as a race because the Imperium is producing Leviathans. I don't see how the hell this fits anywhere in the discussion.

Easy E
21-07-2010, 15:50
I hope everyone on this board who finds Titans impractical also hates the following:

Mech-warrior
AT-AT's
Robotech
CAV
Voltron
BOLO
Gigantor
etc.

Since no nerd in exitence can possibly hate all of those things, I submit that this discussion is pointless.

In a world where titans can and do roam the battlefield, it makes perfect sense to have close combat weapons on said titan? How else will you kill them up close? It's not like in 40K world you can surrender?

Sai-Lauren
21-07-2010, 16:08
You dont know that they are not around. We simply dont have them as an army any more. That doesnt mean they are all dead.

That quote in the opening of the Draco reprints? :)



Once you accept the idea of using titans in 40k, then close combat weapons actually do work. As others have pointed out, titans are epic fail themselves - until you take into account void shields. That allows them to take the stupid amount of punishment they would inevitably receive. So things which bypass void shields are a good idea!

Like having the cables off cranes strung between buildings as tripwires for example, or jump-packing onto the head with a satchel load of melta charges and a few frag to drop through the resultant hole. ;)



I hope everyone on this board who finds Titans impractical also hates the following:

That's a bit harsh, there's a difference between viewing something as completely impractical and hating it.

As pure war machines, Titans are impractical.

If you instead view them as instruments of psychological warfare and in particular as Avatars of the Machine God, that just happen to have seriously heavy weapons and defences on them, then they should make a lot more sense.

barrangas
21-07-2010, 17:26
I hope everyone on this board who finds Titans impractical also hates the following:

ImpractMech-warrior
AT-AT's
Robotech
CAV
Voltron
BOLO
Gigantor
etc.

Since no nerd in exitence can possibly hate all of those things, I submit that this discussion is pointless.

In a world where titans can and do roam the battlefield, it makes perfect sense to have close combat weapons on said titan? How else will you kill them up close? It's not like in 40K world you can surrender?

Impracticle yes, hate no. I can see the practicality of the Tanks in Ghost in the Shell, low slung 4 legged walkers that probably trade some stability for better all-terrain ability. Robot manipulators are a plus too.

AT-ATs where way too tall for their own good. I remember discussions about how they were designed more as an instrument of terror then to be practicle. Look what happened when they fell and think of what happened to the crew that was essentially inside a falling building or the AT-At itself for that matter. They also didn't seem like they had an easy way to get back up if they could.

Veritechs/Valkeries, IIRC, were actually based on a real military idea to turn a jet into a robot, but it died quickly as it was too impracticle and way to complicated to control. Two legged robots would make horrible firing firing platforms any ways. With a two leg walk you have to consider things like recoil to avoid knocking it over more then you would with a tank of the same size.

That said I grew up on Star Wars, Robotech, and Transformers so I still find them cool. Realistically I'd personally spend the resources to make a giant robot to make man sized power armor, hover tanks, etc.

gwarsh41
21-07-2010, 19:00
I hope everyone on this board who finds Titans impractical also hates the following:

Mech-warrior
AT-AT's
Robotech
CAV
Voltron
BOLO
Gigantor
etc.

Since no nerd in exitence can possibly hate all of those things, I submit that this discussion is pointless.

In a world where titans can and do roam the battlefield, it makes perfect sense to have close combat weapons on said titan? How else will you kill them up close? It's not like in 40K world you can surrender?

Winnar! Dont forget about gundams!!

LexxBomb
21-07-2010, 23:34
The fact of the matter is that everything is valid even if contradictory.

I was using the squats as an example of the logic error of your/GW statement...

oh and any real nerd would know to called "Robotech" Macross...heck in Macross 7 they actually had sonic weapons.

Easy E
21-07-2010, 23:55
NERD FIGHT! (Not really)

Robotech is the Americanized/westernized version, and the one of popular 80's cartoon fame.

Macrosse is only the first generation of the multi-generational story line. The second was Southern Cross, the third was "The Next Generation" or Mospeada, and the fourth was the Sentinels.

The first is refered to as Macrosse because the original source of the animation was a film called "Superdimensional Fortress: Macrosse" while the animation for the other storylines were taken from other anime films, and then cobbled together into one storyline for American audiences by Carl Macek.

The Japanese movies then started to use the term Macrosse in subsequent entries, even though they are only loosely linked to the Americanized Robotech storyline.

************************************************** **********

You are right Sai-lauren that hatred and impracticality are two different things. I stand corrected.

With that said, another advantage of CC weapons on titans is IF (and that's a big if) you can use your destructive potential in a much more tactical way then with a Quake Cannon or Plasma Destructor. Perhaps the enemy titans has charged into your own forces frontline, are you simply going to bombard all of them and kill thousands of your own troops when you realistically will barely scratch the paint/knock down the void shields of your foe?

FarseerSinian
22-07-2010, 01:53
It's actually no more illogical for a Titan to be melee than a Space Marine. I believe this because I realized that the shields Titan's have, only work on lasers. That's how titan's are able to be boarded. Also why their accompanied by skitaari legions.

A power fist would literally ignore the shield and directly hit the titan. So by luck you managed to get close to the other titan, it pretty well screwed. Also on the subject of titans being useful at all, the are a powerful symbol. Embodying Man's technological might. Being a huge moral booster for the Imperium, and the darkest nightmare for their enemies. Also Titan's have the most powerful laser cannon's for ground based warfare. Only dwarfed by the kinds used on the Imperium's strike cruiser.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 02:04
I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but I'd image it saves a great deal on power and ammunition generation if you can simply have a titan smash a city to bits with its fists and feet.

Hellebore
22-07-2010, 02:18
The problem with a CC weapon is that you need to get close. There are only very unusual circumstances that would allow for two titans to get closer to each other. Tactically they wouldn't equip them with melee weapons because the chances of ever actually using them would be very low and the use of one HALVES your firepower.

It would be like refitting a fighter jet with submarine components on the OFF chance it needed to fly underwater.

However, if they had bayonets on their guns so that they don't lose any ranged capability but gain melee, then there wouldn't be a problem. Or the ability to produce a focused beam from a plasma/laser weapon so you're titan has a laser sword if it needs it.

Basically so long as the melee weapon doesn't sacrifice the firepower it might actually be fitted.

An example would be the eldar phantom powerfist. It sacrifices SOME ranged capability, but it still has some in it.

99% of the time a titan with a powerfist and 1 gun is at a disadvantage to one with 2 guns. That 1% of the time isn't so overwhelmingly good that it balances out the other 99%.

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 02:24
The problem with a CC weapon is that you need to get close. There are only very unusual circumstances that would allow for two titans to get closer to each other. Tactically they wouldn't equip them with melee weapons because the chances of ever actually using them would be very low and the use of one HALVES your firepower.

It would be like refitting a fighter jet with submarine components on the OFF chance it needed to fly underwater.

However, if they had bayonets on their guns so that they don't lose any ranged capability but gain melee, then there wouldn't be a problem. Or the ability to produce a focused beam from a plasma/laser weapon so you're titan has a laser sword if it needs it.

Basically so long as the melee weapon doesn't sacrifice the firepower it might actually be fitted.

An example would be the eldar phantom powerfist. It sacrifices SOME ranged capability, but it still has some in it.

99% of the time a titan with a powerfist and 1 gun is at a disadvantage to one with 2 guns. That 1% of the time isn't so overwhelmingly good that it balances out the other 99%.

Hellebore

Very nicely presented idea, but you lost me at jet fighter with submarine capabilities. The part of my brain that goes SUPER-AWESOME kicked in. :D

In fact, that may very well be the origin of the idea to give mobile gun fortresses some chainsaw fists.

Hellebore
22-07-2010, 03:10
Lol, yeah it would be super awesome. Luckily for us our military leaders (generally) use things based on usability rather than teh awsumz. :p

The biggest problem with a titan is the concentration of vulnerabilities. Each joint in the leg is another vulnerability, destroy any one of them and the titan crashes to the ground and crushes itself under its own weight.

The head is another - a giant bullseye on the front of the carapace. Destroy it and the titan is dead.

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 03:13
I wonder if, besides the energy and void shields, a titan wouldn't be better served by being outfitted with a massive fauld.

Hellebore
22-07-2010, 03:18
IMO titans should be most heavily armoured on their legs, because that's where the majority of attacks are going to land based on angle of incidence from infantry. In 40k where melee does happen, it's even more important because the feet and shins are the only places the majority of melee troops can actually attack.

Yet we have exposed pistons, cabling and other assorted gubinz all over them.

Titan's should really have fauld-like armour hanging from their knees to cover their shins; front, side and back. There should be some covering their hips and so on. When you build something with so many moving parts and vulnerable locations you should also armour them as much as possible.

The only titans that can get away with their shape are the eldar ones because they run on magic and moonblood. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 03:21
Nor should you resist. ;)

I guess the issue then becomes that titans may look rather silly running around with skirts.

But then again, we could call them kilts and make them cool. Damn, now I have an image of a Slaaneshi Warlord Titan playing bag pipes of doom while wearing a tutu.

Hellebore
22-07-2010, 03:26
Nor should you resist. ;)

I guess the issue then becomes that titans may look rather silly running around with skirts.

But then again, we could call them kilts and make them cool. Damn, now I have an image of a Slaaneshi Warlord Titan playing bag pipes of doom while wearing a tutu.

Sounds like a plan. Maybe it's bagpipes shoot daemonettes...

Hellebore

Sai-Lauren
22-07-2010, 09:21
It would be like refitting a fighter jet with submarine components on the OFF chance it needed to fly underwater.

Ah, Skydiver from UFO :D



However, if they had bayonets on their guns so that they don't lose any ranged capability but gain melee, then there wouldn't be a problem. Or the ability to produce a focused beam from a plasma/laser weapon so you're titan has a laser sword if it needs it.

AT allowed unarmed titans basic Melee attacks, which I presume included everything from extended blades and spikes from the gun housings (or using them as clubs) and shoulder charges through kicks, attempting to trip their opponent and snapshots with the lighter weapons all the way up to attempting to breach the enemies firewalls, hack the MIUs and burn out the crews minds from the inside.

barrangas
22-07-2010, 14:40
Ah, Skydiver from UFO :D

Codex: Lobstermen? I'm in :D!

The Highlander
22-07-2010, 17:16
I always thought that Titan weapons were modular, and that the particular fit chosen would be based on the mission and environment. I can certainly think of situations where a close combat weapon would be useful for a titian, where its taking part in an attack (if you are closing with the enemy anyway you might as well do something when you get there), when fighting in built up environment or where vision would be restricted, or when fighting an enemy who routinely fields close quarters titans.


It would be like refitting a fighter jet with submarine components on the OFF chance it needed to fly underwater.

To me it would be more like replacing some of a fighter jet’s missiles with gun pods because it will be fighting at low level in a mountainous area, and therefore will be engaging targets at much shorter range than normal.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 17:21
I always thought that Titan weapons were modular, and that the particular fit chosen would be based on the mission and environment. I can certainly think of situations where a close combat weapon would be useful for a titian, where its taking part in an attack (if you are closing with the enemy anyway you might as well do something when you get there), when fighting in built up environment or where vision would be restricted, or when fighting an enemy who routinely fields close quarters titans.

I don't know that that is practical when considering the size of the Titans. I would imagine that when they are forged they are outfitted with the weapons they will keep for the length of their service. If you need a CQC titan, it would be more practical forge one devoted to that practice and keep it in reserve. Besides, as Hellebore points out, there are very few environs in which a chain fist is superior to a weapon that can level city blocks. Especially against enemy cqc titans. They have to close the gap, so it gives you more range and time to shoot them to bits before you're in a danger zone.

Hellebore
22-07-2010, 17:31
I always thought that Titan weapons were modular, and that the particular fit chosen would be based on the mission and environment. I can certainly think of situations where a close combat weapon would be useful for a titian, where its taking part in an attack (if you are closing with the enemy anyway you might as well do something when you get there), when fighting in built up environment or where vision would be restricted, or when fighting an enemy who routinely fields close quarters titans.



To me it would be more like replacing some of a fighter jet’s missiles with gun pods because it will be fighting at low level in a mountainous area, and therefore will be engaging targets at much shorter range than normal.


Yes but there is a much higher chance of a jet using a different type of ranged weapon than a titan using something it can only hit its target with from 5 metres away.

Even if their weapons are modular, the only way you could justify replacing a powerful anti city cannon with a giant chainfist is if the titan is being dropped into a titan hanger where other titans are.

Even then, what's better? Having a plasma blast gun that can gun down the enemy from 1km and shoot them pointblank in the face if they happen to get close or a chainsword that only works if they get close?

Thay can use their own guns to bludgeon enemies with, why not also pull the trigger at the same time.

Really there is no good justification for putting a melee weapon on a titan because it sacrifices FAR too much offensive capability for the off chance they might be able to skewer an enemy titan if they walk around a corner and bump into one. It would be more tactically sound to just pull the trigger if that happens rather than trying to swing a multitonne chainsword.

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 17:34
At that short range, however, you run a serious risk of things like splash damage and blowback.

Hellebore
22-07-2010, 17:41
Meh, you'd get 'splash' damage from the chunks of adamantium your chainfist was ripping out of the target. :p

Considering the guns on a titan are as heavily armoured as their carapace, I don't think close range splash back would be much of an issue. I mean, if a plasma blast gun can survive the heat of its own discharge, it shouldn't melt when it gets it second hand back off the target.

A pointblank shot to the face of an enemy titan could be anywhere from 50 to 5 metres away. At that range with such a large target and such a large area affect gun, you can't miss.

In melee you also offer yourself as a target for the enemy. With a gun you could ensure they can't strike you in melee before they close the 20 metre gap.

I'm now imagining gun kata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeHrq_Fs1vk) fights between titans, smacking each other's cannons out of the way with their own cannons to stop them being headshot... :cool:

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 17:49
I'm just imaging a titan formed in a shockingly accurate likeness of Christian Bale.

Hellebore
22-07-2010, 17:52
A Batman titan would be armed for all eventualities, so in that case a melee weapon would be entirely appropriate because he'd KNOW he'd need it.

Hellebore

FlashGordon
22-07-2010, 18:07
Short answer: Orks

Easy E
22-07-2010, 18:49
Here's my thought. If I am the enemy of the Imperium, and I am pretty sure their are going to be fielding titans, I don't set up to fight the Imperium on an open field where the guns of the titan can just pound me to rubble.

I also know that my best chance of taking out an enemy titan is not to try to out shoot it. That means I'm going to have to get it close to me, and attack it in close.

I'm going to make sure the fight takes place someplace where the titan would be at a disadvantage, and I could maximize my advantages. That means I'm going to choose a place where I can get the drop on the thing from concealment or cover, and it won't be able to bring its firepower to bear.

If a Titan does not have a Close Combat weapon delivery system, it leaves itself vulnerable. It becomes to predictable, and hence vulnerable.

To use a poor historical example, if you know the French are going to hide out in the Maginot Line, you don't plan your invasion by running straight into it. Same thing with Titans that DO NOT have CC weapons. If the enemy knows you don't have one, they are going to plan to take advantage of that fact. To be well-rounded tactically, it makes MORE sense to have it.

Sorry, long winded.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 19:07
Not long winded at all. Rather concise, actually.

I see two problems with it though. First, the Imperium knows your first point. They would only want to deploy the titans in cases where they know the titans will be effective anyway or where the deployment of the titans forces you to adopt a tactic that you're not good at or are unfamiliar with. But this is getting into more of the cat-and-mouse game that battlefield tactics really is.

Secondly, the size of the titans works in the same fashion as the size of especially large animals. The size alone is a perfectly good defense mechanism. Many of the vulnerable joints are incredibly high up and comparatively hard to hit. The size makes it practically immune to all but heaviest of ground-based assault troops. I always found it rather ridiculous when the biggest titans have strides that are dozens or hundreds of meters in length and we're supposed to believe that Terminators can keep up long enough to hit something vital with their sledgehammers.

Clockwork-Knight
22-07-2010, 19:36
If I were an enemy of the Imperium, I'd just use long-range missiles to destroy the Titan, as the Tau did, which made the Cult Mechanicus curl into a fetal position when somebody used sensible tactics against their cool but uber-vulnerable mechas.

N0-1_H3r3
22-07-2010, 22:18
If I were an enemy of the Imperium, I'd just use long-range missiles to destroy the Titan, as the Tau did, which made the Cult Mechanicus curl into a fetal position when somebody used sensible tactics against their cool but uber-vulnerable mechas.
What, you mean using long-ranged superheavy weaponry to kill Titans? Everyone does it.

Immense firepower is available at the push of a button. But, as Career Sergeant Charles Zim once said, the enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand... or in this case, rip his head off.

For me, denial of heavy firepower is a significant (though not the only) reason behind the relatively short ranges of 40k combat. Most forces can bring to bear weaponry of terrifying potency at considerable ranges... so getting up close and stomping on the faces of your enemy hinders their ability to bring to bear the heaviest of weapons. A Space Marine is far more effective a warrior ten feet away where you've only got small arms and knives to defend yourself, than he is ten miles away, where you can crush him with heavy artillery.

Titans are, in essence, little different, save that their shielding and armour protects them from all but the most potent of enemy fire, so there is a generally lesser need for close quarters combat on that scale in a personal sense (though a titan on your doorstep will still hinder your ability to bombard the enemy further away... they're large and dangerous distractions, afterall)

However... Titans aren't just gun platforms. They're religious icons, the Emperor's/Omnissiah's unending wrath given form... you put one on a battlefield, you want it to be at the front lines, leading the push, because it's symbolic and inspiring and so forth... so it goes where it'll get a lot closer to the enemy (including any enemy Titans) than it might otherwise do. A halfway competent commander will only send a minority of Titans forward this way - the rest hang back to avoid collateral damage and to bombard the enemy at more comfortable ranges... but the worth of a Titan as inspiration and spearhead is not to be underestimated.

Yeah, it's rule of cool at the heart of it... but what is often overlooked is that this applies as much within the setting as without... in many cases, the Imperium (for example) does things for the sake of appearances and conveying particular impressions, to inspire or to intimidate (or both).

Green-is-best
22-07-2010, 23:43
Except that if a titan is at the front lines, that means the enemy's long range heavy weaponry can still attack it from the safety of their rear. The titan has to be behind enemy lines to negate that advantage and if there's a titan behind your lines, then the battle is already over.

MajorWesJanson
23-07-2010, 01:39
A Batman titan would be armed for all eventualities, so in that case a melee weapon would be entirely appropriate because he'd KNOW he'd need it.

Hellebore

They already have a series that involves Batman + Titans. Called Big-O.


As for Gun Kata with a titan, there are pretty good reasons you would try to avoid using Titan scale ranged weapons as CCWs. Planning on shooting them again for one thing. Using a Gatling Blaster as a club may work, but odds are the amount of force put onto the gun by swinging it hard enough to cause gamage will break things like feed mechanisms, targeting gyros, or even damage the barrels. Plasma weapons are even worse. The things are fragile enough already, and you want to club a titan with it?

On more reason to use a melee weapon over a ranged weapon would be to limit collateral damage (though if collateral damage was a concern, you probably shouldn;t call in a titan to begin with)

Son of Sanguinius
23-07-2010, 01:48
They already have a series that involves Batman + Titans. Called Big-O.

HATED that show.


As for Gun Kata with a titan, there are pretty good reasons you would try to avoid using Titan scale ranged weapons as CCWs. Planning on shooting them again for one thing. Using a Gatling Blaster as a club may work, but odds are the amount of force put onto the gun by swinging it hard enough to cause gamage will break things like feed mechanisms, targeting gyros, or even damage the barrels. Plasma weapons are even worse. The things are fragile enough already, and you want to club a titan with it?

I'm going to assume this is sarcasm and you realize Hellebore wasn't actually suggesting Titans use Gun Kata. :angel: ;)

Clockwork-Knight
23-07-2010, 03:01
However... Titans aren't just gun platforms. They're religious icons, the Emperor's/Omnissiah's unending wrath given form... you put one on a battlefield, you want it to be at the front lines, leading the push, because it's symbolic and inspiring and so forth... so it goes where it'll get a lot closer to the enemy (including any enemy Titans) than it might otherwise do. A halfway competent commander will only send a minority of Titans forward this way - the rest hang back to avoid collateral damage and to bombard the enemy at more comfortable ranges... but the worth of a Titan as inspiration and spearhead is not to be underestimated.And when the enemy shoots them down, suddenly all imperial soldiers fall in panic and curl into a fetal position, because the enemy was capable of defeating the living avatar of the god-emperor. And the Adeptus Mechanicus cries itself to sleep as well, as the titans, the living embodiment of the machine god, who are very expensive to make and take years to finish are gone again.

Except for Space Marines, for they shall know no fear.

One can only hope that there is no reactor breach and then everything gets vaporized in a small sun. :p

Titans are vulnerable and always dangerously exposed when they are deployed to the front lines.

If only for moral support, having Space Marines fighting with you is probably more effective (they are the sons of the Emperor, and they can spit acid, which is probably as devastating as a vulcan cannon shot, and Space Marines poop valuable and explosive crystals and have energy-rocket punches and shoot deadly fireballs from their eyes and other propaganda stuff).

Actually, I'd say that the Imperial Titan lost any value when the Orks and Eldar built their own titans (the orks using garbage because it's awesome - and the eldar titan making pinwheel to evade the shoots and ridicule the mon-keys) and succesfully countered the machine gods' avatar's influence on either moral or pure combative aspects.
And when puny races like the tau start trashing titans too, the titan's future gets really dark, as the loses of the titans reaches a number not sustainable.
With the entire loss of the gryphonnes to the tyranid swarms, all is dark and grim for mankind.

It's a pity, but perhaps smelting the titans down and creating baneblades and shadowswords or whatever lesser variant there is from it might be a better idea for the Imperium.
However, the titans are not the property of the Imperium, but of the AdMech, so who knows how they'll decide...

MajorWesJanson
23-07-2010, 06:59
HATED that show.

Your loss.




I'm going to assume this is sarcasm and you realize Hellebore wasn't actually suggesting Titans use Gun Kata. :angel: ;)

Serious or not, it's worth mentioning that ranged titan weapons do not make the best improvised close combat weapons except in dire emergencies.


Thinking about it, Emperor Titans lack TCCW options entirely and can't take them. Maybe that is why they never survive their first appearance in a novel. :rolleyes:

Son of Sanguinius
23-07-2010, 07:08
Your loss.

Actually, I spoke without fact-checking. I enjoyed that show.


Serious or not, it's worth mentioning that ranged titan weapons do not make the best improvised close combat weapons except in dire emergencies.

Thinking about it, Emperor Titans lack TCCW options entirely and can't take them. Maybe that is why they never survive their first appearance in a novel. :rolleyes:

Right on both points, as far as I'm concerned.

Green-is-best
23-07-2010, 07:17
It really depends on whether a weapon is purpose built to be used as an improvised weapon in emergencies. If it is, then it will be adequately reinforced for that task. It may seem like a silly distinction to make, but there's really nothing in a firearm that can't be over-engineered and supported by redundant systems.

Kage2020
23-07-2010, 12:07
If I were an enemy of the Imperium, I'd just use long-range missiles to destroy the Titan, as the Tau did, which made the Cult Mechanicus curl into a fetal position when somebody used sensible tactics against their cool but uber-vulnerable mechas.
This is 40k. The only reason that you use tactics and strategies outside of the medieval period is to make your Space Marines look like tactical geniuses. :eyebrows:

Next you'll be wanting creeping barrages ( :shifty: ) and supply of Marine-killing weapons to armies that are expecting to fight Marines. :D

Kage

canucklhead
23-07-2010, 20:49
Here's the thing. titans sort of work in Epic, and everything people have said is basically true. Long ranged artillery and missile attacks are their bane. But like special characters, titans only appear in high point games, IIRC the Imperator was the big boy at something like 900 points. that being said, the Imperator was a walking gothiv cathedral, transporting its own company of space marines, and sporting guns big enough to fire rhino sized shells.

in 40k, the titan is a bit of a white elephant. 40k depicts the zoomed in view, the skirmish and the desperate actions that take place all along a massive battle line. An entire 40k battle is just one simple detachment taking its action in Epic. So the things that really mess up titans just aren't there in sufficient numbers in 40k, unless you want to play an apocalypse game taking up your entire living room floor.

All that to say, the Titan is super cool, and rule of cool makes good games. In reality, it's terrible tactics. the idea is to put the biggest possible gun on the fastest and smallest possible target. If they could make an Abrams tank wiegh in at ten tons and still fill the same role, the entire Pentagon would simultaneously pee their collective pants from sheer joy.

Havock
24-07-2010, 19:30
I wouldn’t say that at all. A Titan will be a more then awesome war machine on any battlefield; it can achieve pretty much what bombers can with the huge addition of being able to take and hold territory.

It would be fine if it didn't walk.

MajorWesJanson
25-07-2010, 21:26
It would be fine if it didn't walk.

Well, I would say that Titans skipping along would be even less practical, but eldar already have that covered.

LexxBomb
25-07-2010, 22:57
lol skipping has been found to be the most efficient method of traveling in low gravity environments...a titan fighting on the moon would skip.

Son of Sanguinius
26-07-2010, 06:03
Well, I would say that Titans skipping along would be even less practical, but eldar already have that covered.

Do they skip in the literature? I've never read about them, but I envisioned them as floating and only planting their feet to change the direction of momentum.

MetalGecko23
26-07-2010, 06:34
If you think about how close range fighting in a hive city would be CCW are not that hard to believe. As it could be used to have an offensive weapon when protracted fights leaves you out of ammo. Or the congested terrain allows you to get close and hurty on the guy who isn't armed for point blank combat. It could also be use for clearly large terrain like buildings much like a machete in the jungle with the need for using ammo to shoot the building. Or risking the chance of losing footing walking through the building.

808thMyrmidons
26-07-2010, 08:01
because theres nothing funnier than imagining your titan kicking grots across the field.

f2k
26-07-2010, 08:47
If you think about how close range fighting in a hive city would be CCW are not that hard to believe. As it could be used to have an offensive weapon when protracted fights leaves you out of ammo. Or the congested terrain allows you to get close and hurty on the guy who isn't armed for point blank combat. It could also be use for clearly large terrain like buildings much like a machete in the jungle with the need for using ammo to shoot the building. Or risking the chance of losing footing walking through the building.

Actually, I still find it hard to believe...

Even in our time, tanks are at a disadvantage when fighting in a city environment. Far too many nooks and crannies for infantry to hide in. Imagine then, a time where infantry carries lascannons and multi-meltas...

Titans should not be used inside a hive city. They should be used on the plains outside the city where the long ranges of their weapons give them an advantage. Foregoing this advantage in order to move into close combat is just silly. In addition, a titan should never run out of ammunition. After all, it does contain a big reactor... At least half its weapons should be energy-based - possibly even all its weapons when facing a protracted campaign. Solves a lot of logistical problems...

The problem, to me at least, is that Games Workshop is way to close combat happy. Yes, it might be cool to see two giant robots slugging it out, but it makes absolutely no sense (not that titans make any sense in and of themselves)... I actually like Starship Troopers’ (the book, not the movie) version of future combat better. Fighting in close proximity means being within some 500 meters of each other. And the biggest worry is actually how to use your weapons without taking our mates out at the same time. A titan, as I see it, is much like a mobile trooper. Equipped with extremely heavy firepower and top-notch sensors, they should advance over open country, spread out in a loose line with several miles between each titan, using their sensors to identify, target, and annihilate any thread they might encounter. Deploying them in a city environment robs them of the ability to do this, thus leaving them at a massive disadvantage...

MetalGecko23
26-07-2010, 09:07
Actually, I still find it hard to believe...

Even in our time, tanks are at a disadvantage when fighting in a city environment. Far too many nooks and crannies for infantry to hide in. Imagine then, a time where infantry carries lascannons and multi-meltas...
Only in the 40k board game are multi-meltas and lascannons threats to titans. In the fluff they are useless as the void shields will block them all day and the armor will block on the next. Its the equivalent of shooting javelin missiles at a super carrier.



Titans should not be used inside a hive city. They should be used on the plains outside the city where the long ranges of their weapons give them an advantage. Foregoing this advantage in order to move into close combat is just silly. In addition, a titan should never run out of ammunition. After all, it does contain a big reactor... At least half its weapons should be energy-based - possibly even all its weapons when facing a protracted campaign. Solves a lot of logistical problems...
Should and do (in the fluff) are different. If we go with should then the Imperium shouldn't bother with titans.

As for hive citys. The BRB has a picture of Space Marine Strike Crusiers apparently fly next to or in a hive city and they are absolutely dwarfed by it. A hive city holds a billion+ people in it. New York is massive and has like 15 million people in it. A hive city is MASSIVE on a scale that is actually hard to imagine correctly. A titan is well designed for moving through one like you do down the street.



The problem, to me at least, is that Games Workshop is way to close combat happy. Yes, it might be cool to see two giant robots slugging it out, but it makes absolutely no sense (not that titans make any sense in and of themselves)... I actually like Starship Troopers’ (the book, not the movie) version of future combat better. Fighting in close proximity means being within some 500 meters of each other. And the biggest worry is actually how to use your weapons without taking our mates out at the same time. A titan, as I see it, is much like a mobile trooper. Equipped with extremely heavy firepower and top-notch sensors, they should advance over open country, spread out in a loose line with several miles between each titan, using their sensors to identify, target, and annihilate any thread they might encounter. Deploying them in a city environment robs them of the ability to do this, thus leaving them at a massive disadvantage...
Yes and no. I agree about the chop socky nature of 40k, but then again it isn't supposed to be realistic. A titan is a land battleship and not a mobile trooper. They are used in the exact way that battleships were used and are prefectly designed for that purpose.

Clockwork-Knight
26-07-2010, 12:52
Void shields can easily be bypassed by walking through it, and then you start shooting at the vulnerable parts of the Titan under it. A bunch of trained infantry with heavy lasercannons that are inside the void shields are the death of every titan. It's impossible to stomp a trained soldier fast enough that is always on the move, and they might even start bording the titan and kill the crew from inside. Or they just concentrate on one leg with several high fusion grenades (melta) and bring it to fall.
That's why a titan needs to have massive infantray support that can defend the steel behemoth from titan hunters.

Both titan and infantry are vulnerable to long range artillery strike and attacks from aircraft, so to protect at least against the latter, they need also air support.

Just as carriers need a bunch of other ships to protect it, a titan needs the full support of the imperial guard and navy to function at all.

f2k
26-07-2010, 13:39
Only in the 40k board game are multi-meltas and lascannons threats to titans. In the fluff they are useless as the void shields will block them all day and the armor will block on the next. Its the equivalent of shooting javelin missiles at a super carrier.

As Clockwork-Knight points out, all those voidshields are worthless once the infantry has gotten inside them. And a few well placed multi-melta shots (or grenades) aimed at the vulnerable joints in the titans feet and lower legs is going to bring that titan down in a hurry...


As for hive citys. The BRB has a picture of Space Marine Strike Crusiers apparently fly next to or in a hive city and they are absolutely dwarfed by it. A hive city holds a billion+ people in it. New York is massive and has like 15 million people in it. A hive city is MASSIVE on a scale that is actually hard to imagine correctly. A titan is well designed for moving through one like you do down the street.

Just because a city is massive it doesn’t follow that its roads are also massive in size. In fact, why should they be? They’re designed for humans, not giant robots. A titan probably couldn’t move through a hive city without flattening buildings with every stride. And all those buildings and rubble piles are perfect hiding holes for infantry...


Yes and no. I agree about the chop socky nature of 40k, but then again it isn't supposed to be realistic. A titan is a land battleship and not a mobile trooper. They are used in the exact way that battleships were used and are prefectly designed for that purpose.

In my mind, the only role a land battleship can feasibly have is that of mobile heavy artillery support.

Its strength is its heavy armour and the big guns it carries. Keeping its distance to the enemy allows it to utilise these advantages to full effect, while closing with the enemy will negate both.

So, if we treat a titan as a land battleship (and it’s probably not a bad comparison), equipping the titan with close combat weapons is still a bad idea...

MetalGecko23
26-07-2010, 14:18
Void shields can easily be bypassed by walking through it, and then you start shooting at the vulnerable parts of the Titan under it. A bunch of trained infantry with heavy lasercannons that are inside the void shields are the death of every titan. It's impossible to stomp a trained soldier fast enough that is always on the move, and they might even start bording the titan and kill the crew from inside. Or they just concentrate on one leg with several high fusion grenades (melta) and bring it to fall.
That's why a titan needs to have massive infantray support that can defend the steel behemoth from titan hunters.
Fluff I have seen lately contradicts that. Titanicus and Soul Hunter have it that the void shields need to be taken out in order to assualt a titan. Just think how would you cross through an magnetic barrier so powerful it can stop solid slugs the size of a car. Trying to pass through a void shield would kill you instantly. Thats why titans are never boarded when they have active shields.



Both titan and infantry are vulnerable to long range artillery strike and attacks from aircraft, so to protect at least against the latter, they need also air support.
Thats is basically the same weakness for all military units. A titan really doesn't need air support. Unlike the game which has balance to worry about. A titan outs side of warhound and reaver classes is covered with AA and AI weaponry. They have bolter type weapons in batteries all over the place. Though would most likely still have air support yes. As for artillery unless its another titan or ordinatus fluff seems to consider everything else minor unless concentrated an in huge masses the only thing that will knock out void shields.



Just as carriers need a bunch of other ships to protect it, a titan needs the full support of the imperial guard and navy to function at all.
If we were being realistic sure. In 40k titans don't really require the support of the IG. They do however make us of skittarii, in a support role. Mostly to hold ground or to fight enemy infantry while the titan focuses on fighting other titans.


As Clockwork-Knight points out, all those voidshields are worthless once the infantry has gotten inside them. And a few well placed multi-melta shots (or grenades) aimed at the vulnerable joints in the titans feet and lower legs is going to bring that titan down in a hurry...
As I said void shields need to be brought down before infantry can have any effect. The skittarii are there so that if this were to happen they can rush in and defend the titan from infantry assualts.



Just because a city is massive it doesn’t follow that its roads are also massive in size. In fact, why should they be? They’re designed for humans, not giant robots. A titan probably couldn’t move through a hive city without flattening buildings with every stride. And all those buildings and rubble piles are perfect hiding holes for infantry...
This is 40k were talking about right? A hive city is built so titans can walk in them. Read Titanicus, titans up to Imperator class didn't have problems moving through a hive city. An the infantry died by the thousands being nothing more then cannon fodder. Because a ruined building is no cover to a weapon that can vaporise a city block.




In my mind, the only role a land battleship can feasibly have is that of mobile heavy artillery support.

Its strength is its heavy armour and the big guns it carries. Keeping its distance to the enemy allows it to utilise these advantages to full effect, while closing with the enemy will negate both.

So, if we treat a titan as a land battleship (and it’s probably not a bad comparison), equipping the titan with close combat weapons is still a bad idea...
Once again its 40k. So a titan is used like big prize fighter with cannons. Just like mythical battleship duels. Titans are armed with CCW for cool titan on titan duels. Though once you run out of ammo a CCW probably would be nice. In the fluff titans don't seem to use CCW weapons much anymore. I suspect mostly because it does get in the way of the battleship image.

Shovah
26-07-2010, 15:04
Possibilities range from limited ammunition on their guns to fighting another Titan-like entity.

Hellebore
26-07-2010, 15:14
Infantry can actually walk inside a void shield, you don't have to bring them down to attack them in melee.

I also don't think a titan would be wandering around inside a hive city in the first place. Horses for courses. A titan's course is not the congested laneways of a hive.

Hellebore

Clockwork-Knight
26-07-2010, 16:21
Void shields work like the holtzmann shields from dune, but without the disadvantage of exploding when a laser weapon hits it.

Whatever these books say otherwise because the author has no clue and the editors have once again made a bad job doesn't change that fact. Void shields can be penetrated if you enter it quite slowly (not as fast as a super-sonic missile). That's how bombers and fighters can do damage to the Imperial warships, and how torpedos rip them in pieces. They slow down when encountering the void shield and then start ripping apart the outer hulls.

That's how always it has been, and how it will remain unless explicitely retconned in a new game supplement.

El_Machinae
26-07-2010, 21:25
I think that the efficacy of CCWs on Titans is highlighted by the fact that so many modern tanks have chainsaws attached to their turrets.

Clockwork-Knight
26-07-2010, 22:03
Yeah, that's why those poor commisars have to do the job themselves, because everybody forgot to add chainsaws.

Easy E
26-07-2010, 22:23
Historically, there has always been a battle between armor and weapons. At some points in history, weapopns hae the advantage over armor. For example, muskets verses armored knights. At other times, armor has the advantage over weapons, such as castle walls versus bow and arrow. The relationship is always evolving.

I think it is safe to say in 40K land, armor is in the ascnedancy. That is not to say that weapons do not exist that can beat existing armor, that is to say that the proliferation of such weapons has reached a point where armor has become mute.

That is why titans have CCW weapons. The number of weapons in the 40K universe that are an actual threat to a titan are minimal, therefore it can close at leisure and in relative safety. The quickest way to get an enemy titan out of the fight is to smash it into pulp with your titan's ccw, since the titan guns are simply not that effective against other titans either.

The titan CCW are actually the most effective anti-titan weapon in the 40K universe.

Clockwork-Knight
26-07-2010, 22:54
Why do you think that armor has the advantage in the Wh40k-verse? There are enough doomsday-weapons capable of melting mountains and breaking open several kilometer-thick crusts to make lava erupt, or even more exotic armament like warp weapons (cannons and grenades) that simply beam you to the Imaterium, where you'll mutate into a gibbering pile of flesh, and your armor is worthless, as you're going to be fused with it in a painful manner, while daemons rip your soul apart and make butts and fleshy eyes come out from the walls.

If anything, weapons have the absolute advantage in the arms-race of Wh40k.

And that's why a titan with fire-weapons is still superior to a close-combat focused titan unless it has the ability to teleport straight to the enemy or greatly reduce the distance between the two, like the Eldar would manage when a webway portal is opened near an enemy titan.
But if two titans start engaging each another from several kilometers away, the one with better guns will prevail over the one with a big chainsaw (unless you can rocket-launch those chainsaw :D ).

Iracundus
26-07-2010, 23:59
Titans have never been invulnerable to man portable anti-tank weaponry and still have to pay attention to massed tank formations in Epic and Apocalypse. A Titan charging single handedly into the open against the massed enemy gets taken down through mass firepower. Six void shields on a Warlord may seem like a lot, but against a whole army bent on taking it down? Not really.

The only Titan that really got towards that kind of single handed performance was the Imperator due to its 12 shields and the ability to boost its shield recharging. At that level of firepower and shielding, it had enough firepower to destroy or seriously damage most opposing formations, to the point where the return firepower was not as likely to down all the shields in time to inflict significant hull damage. Then the next turn would see a good fraction of those shields being brought back up.

However an Imperator with its shields downed would be vulnerable and while durable, still could not entirely ignore man portable weaponry like lascannons, which still had a chance of bringing the whole thing crashing down.

MetalGecko23
27-07-2010, 05:31
Void shields work like the holtzmann shields from dune, but without the disadvantage of exploding when a laser weapon hits it.
I have never seen anything implying that before. Not that I'm saying it doesn't exist.



Whatever these books say otherwise because the author has no clue and the editors have once again made a bad job doesn't change that fact. Void shields can be penetrated if you enter it quite slowly (not as fast as a super-sonic missile). That's how bombers and fighters can do damage to the Imperial warships, and how torpedos rip them in pieces. They slow down when encountering the void shield and then start ripping apart the outer hulls.
I don't consider Dan Abnett or ADB lacking in their fluff knowledge.



That's how always it has been, and how it will remain unless explicitely retconned in a new game supplement.
I don't play Epic so I could care less about its fluff. Not that its invalid just don't care about it. I only play 40k, and I do consider them seperate.


Titans have never been invulnerable to man portable anti-tank weaponry and still have to pay attention to massed tank formations in Epic and Apocalypse. A Titan charging single handedly into the open against the massed enemy gets taken down through mass firepower. Six void shields on a Warlord may seem like a lot, but against a whole army bent on taking it down? Not really.
Talking game balance in a fluff forum doesn't really work. Titans kill infantry by the thousands, I doubt you can do that in Epic with one titan.



The only Titan that really got towards that kind of single handed performance was the Imperator due to its 12 shields and the ability to boost its shield recharging. At that level of firepower and shielding, it had enough firepower to destroy or seriously damage most opposing formations, to the point where the return firepower was not as likely to down all the shields in time to inflict significant hull damage. Then the next turn would see a good fraction of those shields being brought back up.
I don't mean to come off as a jerk but Epic's rules don't equal fluff examples.

f2k
27-07-2010, 08:23
I have never seen anything implying that before. Not that I'm saying it doesn't exist.

A quote from the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook (page 25):

Shields are only effective against lances, weapons batteries and novan connon. Attacks made by ramming, bombers and torpedoes get inside a ship’s shield, so they offer no protection.

A quote from the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook (page 28):

Torpedoes will pass through shields before they impact.

A quote from the Titan Legions rulebook (page 33):

A Titan’s power shields or void shields do not protect it in close combat as they do against other fire. Once troops are close enough to the Titan to fight hand-to-hand they have already passed through the shields. The shields remain intact, but have no effect on close combat.

There you have it. You can pass through shields without getting killed...


I don't consider Dan Abnett or ADB lacking in their fluff knowledge.

You do not consider Dan “I don’t know what a Commissar is, but I’ll write a book about one anyway” Abnet lacking in fluff knowledge? The man might write somewhat decent pulp-fiction, but he doesn’t know 40K...


I don't play Epic so I could care less about its fluff. Not that its invalid just don't care about it. I only play 40k, and I do consider them seperate.

Why separate? They’re merely two different scales for figting in the same setting... Not that it matters for this discussion, I’m simply curious...


Talking game balance in a fluff forum doesn't really work. Titans kill infantry by the thousands, I doubt you can do that in Epic with one titan.

Here we can agree. The fluff is rarely reflected on the table top.

I will say, however, that a titan in Epic can easily kill thousands of infantry. The only thing stopping it is the fact that the opponent has usually brought a few titans of his own...


I don't mean to come off as a jerk but Epic's rules don't equal fluff examples.

As I said, the fluff is rarely reflected on the tabletop. I will, however, argue that the fact that these things have been described in rules throughout several different game systems and many different versions of these systems, does indicate that this is, in fact, the way that shields are intended to work.

In any case, I would much rather refer to rules written by Andy Chambers, Gavin Thorpe and Jervis Johnson, than to fluff written by Dan Abnet...

Iracundus
27-07-2010, 08:54
Void shields have always been described as being passable to slow moving objects, with "slow" being relative to the scale involved. That is how infantry, vehicles, and Titans can engage Titans in close combat, and how torpedoes and bombers can inflict attacks that bypass shields in BFG.

Arbitrarily denying how they work in those other scales is simply ignoring the well defined fluff background on how the technology and 40K physics of void shields work on all scales. Sounds like you want Titans to be invulnerable so you are trying to dismiss and ignore all evidence that doesn't agree with that preformed assumption. Ignoring the background for void shields in such a manner is no different from a hypothetical BFG player claiming he doesn't play 40K so he doesn't care what it says about bolters firing explosive bolts and claims they fire solid potatoes.



I will say, however, that a titan in Epic can easily kill thousands of infantry. The only thing stopping it is the fact that the opponent has usually brought a few titans of his own...

Titans don't kill thousands of infantry. Look at examples from the Siege of Vraks for example where a Warhound is destroyed by an artillery company, or a Reaver destroyed by an fixed cannon emplacement. Titans are heavy war machines but they are not Mecha-Godzilla, and a massed force of armor or artillery will still give an unsupported Titan a run for its money.

f2k
27-07-2010, 09:06
Titans don't kill thousands of infantry. Look at examples from the Siege of Vraks for example where a Warhound is destroyed by an artillery company, or a Reaver destroyed by an fixed cannon emplacement. Titans are heavy war machines but they are not Mecha-Godzilla, and a massed force of armor or artillery will still give an unsupported Titan a run for its money.

Well, that was why I pointed out that a titan was usually stopped from killing hordes of infantry by the appearance of other titans. I probably should have extended the example to include massed artillery, heavy air attacks and so on...

The point I was trying to make was that a titan could indeed kill thousands of infantry provided that it was not opposed by something bigger that demanded its immediate attention...

Clockwork-Knight
27-07-2010, 10:52
Now that we've established that Abnett or ADB have no clues about void shields, let's rest at that. As is said all the time, sometimes authors just make mistakes because they didn't do proper research in the first place, and the editting in Black Library is shoddy at best.
It's sad, but that's how it is.

Sai-Lauren
27-07-2010, 10:55
In any case, I would much rather refer to rules written by Andy Chambers, Gavin Thorpe and Jervis Johnson, than to fluff written by Dan Abnet...

Agreed - the novels and fluff are at best a good yarn and at worst shameless propaganda/ advertising (much as I like Dan Abnett's work :)).

The rules and the models are much better indications of what they're truly supposed to be capable of.

But considering that Titans can move through dense terrain without cutting through it, around other units and so on, their shields must be permeable to some degree, and I agree with the assessment relating them back to the Shields in Dune - below a certain speed, the shield doesn't stop it (otherwise the person would suffocate because there's only a limited amount of oxygen in it).

Besides, you can still try and take out the ground in front of them (which was a tactic used by an Ork Warlord on Marine Dreadnoughts in the 1st Warhammer Siege rulebook ;)).

MetalGecko23
28-07-2010, 00:21
Now that we've established that Abnett or ADB have no clues about void shields, let's rest at that. As is said all the time, sometimes authors just make mistakes because they didn't do proper research in the first place, and the editting in Black Library is shoddy at best.
It's sad, but that's how it is.
I don't find it sad. I prefer their way over BFG and Epic. Frankly I like very little of the fluff that came out of the BFG books (outside of Orks). Lol Tau water caste build ships? They do in BFG.

MetalGecko23
28-07-2010, 00:27
Agreed - the novels and fluff are at best a good yarn and at worst shameless propaganda/ advertising (much as I like Dan Abnett's work :)).
Ditto same as the rule book fluff and codex fluff ;). As we are now counting Matt Ward as being better then Abnett?



The rules and the models are much better indications of what they're truly supposed to be capable of.
Due to the massive resources that go into building a titan. The rules do a poor job of depicting one. If an IG heavy weapons platoon or a trio of hammerheads can knock out a titan with no problem and they do. Would you take the time to build them?



Besides, you can still try and take out the ground in front of them (which was a tactic used by an Ork Warlord on Marine Dreadnoughts in the 1st Warhammer Siege rulebook ;)).
lol I don't think anybody could disagree with that.

Clockwork-Knight
28-07-2010, 01:35
I don't find it sad. I prefer their way over BFG and Epic. Frankly I like very little of the fluff that came out of the BFG books (outside of Orks). Lol Tau water caste build ships? They do in BFG.The water caste is responsible for diplomacy, administration, first-contact, exploration, foreign and counter intelligence. The water caste working on how to spread the manifest destiny of the Tau as teached by the Ethereals by creating ships and more efficient drives not only makes senses, it would be dumb and idiotic if it were not so.
It's not the earth caste that has only scientists. In fact, every caste has it's own science teams testing, creating and improving all sorts of technology.

Ditto same as the rule book fluff and codex fluff ;). As we are now counting Matt Ward as being better then Abnett?Matt Ward however didn't claim that void shields were working differently.
However, are you sure that ADB and Abnett wrote that Void shields couldn't be penetrated as they should? If they really did, then this is the same sort of mistake that gave way to ethereals with feet.


Due to the massive resources that go into building a titan. The rules do a poor job of depicting one. If an IG heavy weapons platoon or a trio of hammerheads can knock out a titan with no problem and they do. Would you take the time to build them?Most titans aren't built anymore. They are salvaged and repaired.
Their job is primarily as artillery-platform, not to engage in fisticuffs.

It is a dumb tactic to go near enough to the enemy that his titan-killers can make short work with the towering behemoths.

Void shields cannot protect a titan from the stupidity of a princeps who thinks that they should be 10 meters away from the enemy.

Horus_Lupercal
28-07-2010, 01:54
As it said in titancanus, titan close combat weapons are a last resort, that book also said that anything that gets that close is a kill kill scenario, if your gonna die then you might as well die with your enemy following you

MetalGecko23
28-07-2010, 02:18
The water caste is responsible for diplomacy, administration, first-contact, exploration, foreign and counter intelligence. The water caste working on how to spread the manifest destiny of the Tau as teached by the Ethereals by creating ships and more efficient drives not only makes senses, it would be dumb and idiotic if it were not so.
It's not the earth caste that has only scientists. In fact, every caste has it's own science teams testing, creating and improving all sorts of technology.
:confused: The Earth caste is responsible for all technology and construction. What fluff are you reading (not being sarcastic)?



Matt Ward however didn't claim that void shields were working differently.
However, are you sure that ADB and Abnett wrote that Void shields couldn't be penetrated as they should? If they really did, then this is the same sort of mistake that gave way to ethereals with feet.
They make it that the shields need to be down to get in close and harm a titan. Thats all really.

An Tau do have feet. They don't have hooves, they have three toes.



It is a dumb tactic to go near enough to the enemy that his titan-killers can make short work with the towering behemoths.
Regardless of why its a dumb tactic. Titans still are often armed with CCW. Like Reavers which almost always have one.



Void shields cannot protect a titan from the stupidity of a princeps who thinks that they should be 10 meters away from the enemy.
If you say so.

Clockwork-Knight
28-07-2010, 10:49
:confused: The Earth caste is responsible for all technology and construction. What fluff are you reading (not being sarcastic)?Codex Tau, Codex Tau Empire, White Dwarf-Article. But seeing as how you actually even lack the knowledge about how void shields work, even going as far as refusing established background lore and trying to adamantly justify simple mistakes from authors who do admit that they sometimes just make mistakes, it's no wonder why you're asking.

They make it that the shields need to be down to get in close and harm a titan. Thats all really.Well, that's a pity that they can't get this right.


An Tau do have feet. They don't have hooves, they have three toes.Just look at the model of Aun'Shi or the newer ethereal guards of Aun'Va.

Regardless of why its a dumb tactic. Titans still are often armed with CCW. Like Reavers which almost always have one.The mars pattern reaver titan, which is the most common of these, don't have close combat weapons. Like warhounds, Imperial and Emperor titans.

If you say so.And like everybody else says. Anything contradicting this is wrong and will always remain wrong.

But okay, you refuse to accept that Black Library has shoddy editing, and arguing with you is worthless, so I'm going to put you on ignore, so that you don't have to put up with me either.

Sai-Lauren
28-07-2010, 11:55
Ditto same as the rule book fluff and codex fluff . As we are now counting Matt Ward as being better then Abnett?

I wouldn't go that far... ;)



Due to the massive resources that go into building a titan. The rules do a poor job of depicting one. If an IG heavy weapons platoon or a trio of hammerheads can knock out a titan with no problem and they do. Would you take the time to build them?

Lasguns can pierce Power Armour. Yet Marines still pop up with depressing regularity. ;)

Titans shouldn't take to the battlefield alone - if they do, and you take them into areas where their strengths are reduced and their weaknesses increased, then it's dead.

There is no such thing as an Ultimate War Machine - Titans are good in certain limited scenarios, same as everything else is. The trick is to make sure they're operating within those scenarios and your enemy is operating outside their optimum scenarios.

All a different weapons loadout for a Titan does is make it better in one or two scenarioes and worse in one or two others. You might as well say a Land Raider Crusader is rubbish because is can't crack open armour at long range. But that's not what it's designed for, it's designed to get shock troops to a breach and support them..

MetalGecko23
28-07-2010, 15:20
Codex Tau, Codex Tau Empire, White Dwarf-Article. But seeing as how you actually even lack the knowledge about how void shields work, even going as far as refusing established background lore and trying to adamantly justify simple mistakes from authors who do admit that they sometimes just make mistakes, it's no wonder why you're asking.
Well excuse me for not taking my fluff knowledge as seriously as you do oh god king.

P.S. Or oppinion (and thats what it is) on the Tau is absolutely incorrect. I advise that if your going to carry such a superior attitude in the future that you too should know what your talking about.

I mean you are going to say Tau and Tau Empire Codex? Please read them first.

As for void shields I conceed that the books say the opposite. I just admited I prefer the way Abnett and ADB do it.

El_Machinae
28-07-2010, 20:32
I wouldn't go that far... ;)


Lasguns can pierce Power Armour. Yet Marines still pop up with depressing regularity. ;)

Titans shouldn't take to the battlefield alone - if they do, and you take them into areas where their strengths are reduced and their weaknesses increased, then it's dead.

There is no such thing as an Ultimate War Machine - Titans are good in certain limited scenarios, same as everything else is. The trick is to make sure they're operating within those scenarios and your enemy is operating outside their optimum scenarios.

All a different weapons loadout for a Titan does is make it better in one or two scenarioes and worse in one or two others. You might as well say a Land Raider Crusader is rubbish because is can't crack open armour at long range. But that's not what it's designed for, it's designed to get shock troops to a breach and support them..

What scenarios would you say a Titan would excel at?

J-man
29-07-2010, 01:57
Titans have CC weapons so that when some sneaky trygon burrows up behind them, tears off an ubercannon and starts beating them across the sensor array with it, they have something to defend themselves with.

Sai-Lauren
29-07-2010, 08:09
What scenarios would you say a Titan would excel at?

What's the loadout? ;)

This is mainly about Warlords and Reavers.

As said earlier, they are basically land battleships, so supplying immediate, mobile, heavy support fire on open terrain as part of an army battlegroup.

They'll reinforce the morale of friendly troops (the gods of war walk with us), and damage the morale of the enemy ("that armour's too strong for blasters" ;)).

They can potentially act as local command and control centres, using their superior sensors and comms gear to identify, prioritise and communicate targets, and communicate back through heavier jamming to main C3 assets to call down air strikes etc.

They can act defensively to hold a line against enemy fast armour and shock troops, so long as they're already in or near that position, or hold a pass through mountains where the enemy can't easily blindside them.

MajorWesJanson
29-07-2010, 10:29
The mars pattern reaver titan, which is the most common of these, don't have close combat weapons. Like warhounds, Imperial and Emperor titans.


Mars Pattern Reavers have several CCW options. the epic scale and Armourcast versions have both chainblades and power fists, while Forgeworld makes a Powerfist for their Mars Reaver.

Warhounds can carry a form of trident, which has appeared in Titanicus and at least reached a prototype stage for producing a model.

CaptainSenioris
29-07-2010, 11:41
Hang on a second, I'm reading Titanicus at work just now, it's not my first read though either and I haven't seen anything that implies you can't assault through void shields.

Nichomach Ignis was engaged by a warhound & scitarii & it led to close combat but there wasn't anything saying that it's shields would have prevented close combat, it just couldn't raise it's shields.

As for close combat weapons on Titans it may be impractical or unrealistic but I think it's up to the personality of the princeps. They might find it comes in handy against opponents they've fought in the past Gargants, banelords, other titans that favour getting up close etc.

El_Machinae
29-07-2010, 20:19
In Titanicus we know that void shields aren't important in CC because they're never mentioned in CC. They're often mentioned with regards to distance firing.

Easy E
30-07-2010, 16:29
Let's think about this carefully. Is it that much of a loss to forepower if you swap one of four weapons on a warlord with a CC weapon?

Instead of a Plasma Destructor, Quake Cannon, Gatling Blaster, and Multi-launcher. Really, only about half of a Titans weapons are for killing other titans while the other half are for killing other stuff. If you replace one of those weapons with a CC weapon, does it really reduce their firepower that much?

Theoretically, it reduces it by 25%, but in real terms, the anti-titan killing power is not significantly reduced below what it had previously thanks to Void shields and armored carapace and such.

In addition, the recharge rate on anti-Titan Plasma weaponry is not that great anyway, making closing with the opponent more feasible.

Perhaps it is just preference. If I was a princeps, I would like a Power fist/Chain fist/Laser Burner over another Gatling Blaster anyday. I'm not terribly concenred about the opponents that a Gatling Blaster is good against to begin with.

Hellebore
30-07-2010, 16:36
Well a Reaver loses 33% of its fire power.

A Warlord I think would lose more than 25% because its shoulder mounted guns are just warhound titan weapons, whilst its arm mounted guns are 'warlord titan' guns and far more destructive.

I would say you'd lose 30% or more (30% per arm and 20% per shoulder).

If they just put guns on the close combat weapons like they did for the eldar there wouldn't be as much of a problem. Even a power fist with 3 heavy bolters is better than none.

Hellebore

Green-is-best
30-07-2010, 18:52
I think that the efficacy of CCWs on Titans is highlighted by the fact that so many modern tanks have chainsaws attached to their turrets.

This x 1000.

Moreover, have you guys considered how much power output a giant chainsaw would need in order to actually be able to cut through an armored target? Or how sharp and durable the teeth would have to be? Think about the possibility of using a physical cutting tool to cut through the front plating of a modern MBT with composite armor. It would require a diamond toothed saw with a ridiculous amount of horsepower, if it is even physically possible. A titan would have thicker, probably more durable armor. The whole concept is supposed to be taken with a big grain of salt.

How has this thread gone 7 pages? The reason titans have CC weapons is the same reason that Space Marines have chain swords. Rule of Cool. Nothing less, nothing more.

Easy E
30-07-2010, 21:05
This is the internet. Pointless nerd debate is the point!

That's how this thread went 7 pages.

Aren't chainfists, and the like, supported by power fields when they get up to Titan sized? Hence, reducing the effor tit takes to chop up said tank armor?

LexxBomb
31-07-2010, 01:03
technically chainfists from a personnel level have power fields that distort the matter around them

Promethius
01-08-2010, 11:17
I'm sure titan chainfists are wreathed in energy fields. They may even have weapons with massive drills like on the forgeworld death corps assault drill (?hades). Obviously rule of cool makes these things awesome, but having a back up weapon as well as something you can use to tear holes in buildings/fortresses is adantagous. Sometimes you probably don't want to destroy the whole city you are trying to reclaim, so a titan that can rip the doors off would be useful!

El_Machinae
02-08-2010, 14:06
It would be silly to put on a chainfist without a powerfield.

Titanitcus had one CCW that was a morning star. I'd imagine that something like that would have anti-titan utility even without a powerfield.

CaptainSinon
02-08-2010, 17:27
i have two reasons:

1. Best bitch slap EVER

2. Psychological warfare - if a 100 mile high killing machine rips part of a city off then starts going king kong on your ass - your gonna want to stop fighting