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huitzilopochtli
19-07-2010, 11:17
So... with the new horde formation a lot of armies can now field massive units of cheap guys that dish out a whole load of attacks. From 2.5pt skavenslaves to 10pt empire greatswords, these units of 30+ models are an intimidating enemy to behold. How can we deal with them?

Well the obvious answer is to hit them in the flank, but this is not always possible and is not always practical (say for monsters or cavalry who could get tied up for the whole battle attacking a unit of goblins that could wind up beating you in combat if you roll poorly, and are steadfast even if you roll well). Do we have any more imaginative ways of breaking these uber-units, and hopefully scoring a LOT of VPs in the process? Here's my idea...

Bretonnian knights! In lance formation these guys have a decent number of ranks and against hordes of 30-40 models will probably steal their steadfast (you don't expect that of cavalry these days). In addition, they throw out a whole bunch of attacks with +2S on the charge and have a very small frontage, denying the horde around half of its attacks. High armour saves and the blessing of the lady should see most of your ranks survive even against high strength hordes, and becase the unit is only going to cost you about 250pts, they'll probably make their value back after the first horde.

What do you think?

CrownAxe
19-07-2010, 11:25
Cool for Bretonnia

What about everyone else?

Windings of a snake
19-07-2010, 11:28
That is a good idea. Use trebuchets in addition. Try 60 peasants on foot yourself. Add a damsel with that 25 points ward save item. Cheap as hell, S4 because of halberds and 5+ ward save against quality attacks. But beware of elite infantry like chaos warriors. Higher I will harm you badly. Luckily they are expensive.

Windings of a snake
19-07-2010, 11:30
Woc; Use your own hordes

HE: Difficult, but maybe large units of spearmen

DE: Large units of spearmen. Magic spells

Empire: Everything

Vampire counts: Sum of xerxeus

Beastmen: Try your own hordes

Wodd leves: ?????

Dwarf army: Enough tools

JonnyX
19-07-2010, 11:39
As a dark elf player I tend to do the minus D3 Toughness shadow spell followed by mass bowfire as i usually take 2-3 units of XBM and it makes me smile when i wound on 2+. Ofcourse magic that hits every model in the unit works wonders too(cant remember any off the top of my head appart from Flames of the phoenix).

diggerydoom
19-07-2010, 11:46
Recently used a unit of temple guard with slann( therefore stubborn) to fight a horde unit in a wood (no steadfast for them).

The dewllers below spell also useful as it hits every model in the unit.

Sexiest_hero
19-07-2010, 14:09
TK: skeletal archer horde, SSC, add smiting.

Memnos
19-07-2010, 14:15
With Bretonnians, what is the exact wording of the Banner of the Lady of the Lake? Is it that the enemy gets no combat resolution bonus for ranks, or that the enemy gets no bonuses for ranks?

'Cause Steadfast is, y'know... A bonus. For ranks. Specifically: Having more ranks than your opponent.

Gaargod
19-07-2010, 14:25
Yeah, slight problem with flank charges. You can now reform in combat even if you lose, as long as you pass a LD test. Idiotically though (i hate this rule), you can use steadfast for that too.

Hence, even flank charging with ranked cavalry will still get you nowhere - they hold on stubborn Ld X (usually pretty good with a general and BSB floating about), then turn around on the same.

Eternus
19-07-2010, 14:35
Any Template weapon (breath attack, Flame Cannon etc) or Blast Marker weapon (stone throwers, mortars) should take massive chunks out of a Horde if they hit, also, it may be easier to make them Panic or fail a Terror test rather than attacking them directly, and then run them down with something fast. Hordes will likely be made up of relatively cheap, and therefore relatively poor troops, and Steadfast only works in combat I believe, although the proximity of the General and BSB may throw a spanner in the works.

Failing that, either stuff with really high Toughness/Multiple Wounds, or even something that is Ethereal - what's the use of all those attacks if they can't hurt anything. I feel a 6 base Spirit Host coming on - the enemy may get rank bonus, but the Spirits could balance that out with damage and they cause Fear which should also help. Something Unbreakable in the flank (both flanks would be better) - as long as the Unbreakable whatever can take down enough models to prevent many attacks back, then you're set, because they may get rank bonus and be Steadfast, (unless your Unbreakable is a big unit) but they get no suppoting attacks at all to the flanks or rear, and you get bonuses to resolution for attacking there.

Just off the top of my head....

Dutch_Digger
19-07-2010, 14:39
i believe this tactic doesnt depend on flanking though. Reforming would be rather irrelevant

Liancour
19-07-2010, 14:41
HE: Difficult, but maybe large units of spearmen
Magic is the Key... Template spell of course, but the last metal spell is also cool (each model in the unit must roll) and in the High magic, flames of the phoenix (1 hit S3, on every model in the unit, remains in play, Strenght increases each subsequent turn).

Jared Blyte
19-07-2010, 16:52
Vampire counts: Sum of xerxeus


What the heck does that mean? :wtf:

Google doesnt even have an answer for that one - leads me back to this thread!

ShaggothLord
19-07-2010, 16:57
What the heck does that mean? :wtf:

Google doesnt even have an answer for that one - leads me back to this thread!

He means SUN of Xerxeus.

Or whatever the 6th Lore of Death spell is.;)

Azhrar
19-07-2010, 16:59
he means the Purple Sun of Xereus

shartmatau
19-07-2010, 17:47
well the best way i have dealt with them so far is to smack them with a better unit. Most horde units are the really cheap fellas, who aren't great to start with. They get better because of the extra attacks but they still aren't good at fighting. So I hit it with a better unit that has one more rank than the horde, a good reason to field 25-30 guys deep instead of wide. Hell, even a lot of the cheap hordey units are low leadership so it often doesnt even matter if they are stubborn.

the only horde that is dangerous is a horde with a couple of characters in it. The horde soaks up the wounds and the characters push it over the top in CR with their own kills.

Jared Blyte
19-07-2010, 17:57
He means SUN of Xerxeus.

Or whatever the 6th Lore of Death spell is.;)

ahhh thanks :P

Well im sticking to lore of vampires, curse of years will have to do the job!

Either that or they can be greeted by my horde of grave guard :cool:

Saldiven
19-07-2010, 18:13
I find it highly unlikely that a single 250 point unit of Bret Knights will break a horde of much of anything worthwhile.

The combination of Step Up, fighting in three ranks, Steadfast and a likely re-roll from a nearby BSB means that merely charging with the knights isn't an auto-win on combat resolution. After the charge round, reverting to S3 attacks makes the knights pretty meh.

This past weekend, I actually witnessed two different games where Bret Knights bounced off of larger ranked units. I think Knights have to be much more careful in choosing where they attack in this edition.

Jared Blyte
19-07-2010, 18:25
I find it highly unlikely that a single 250 point unit of Bret Knights will break a horde of much of anything worthwhile.

The combination of Step Up, fighting in three ranks, Steadfast and a likely re-roll from a nearby BSB means that merely charging with the knights isn't an auto-win on combat resolution. After the charge round, reverting to S3 attacks makes the knights pretty meh.

This past weekend, I actually witnessed two different games where Bret Knights bounced off of larger ranked units. I think Knights have to be much more careful in choosing where they attack in this edition.

You can charge two in with characters if you like.

Still wont make a dent in horde graveguard - with a wight king, banner of the barrows and a corpse cart behind them for ASF.

I lost 2 GG on that charge. Sick.

Saldiven
19-07-2010, 21:07
You can charge two in with characters if you like.

Still wont make a dent in horde graveguard - with a wight king, banner of the barrows and a corpse cart behind them for ASF.

I lost 2 GG on that charge. Sick.

Haha...I saw something similar this past weekend. The VC player had a horde of 30 GW GG with the Banner of the Barrows. The Bret player hit the horde with a total if 15 knights in three units (6, 6 & 9). All the knights were either dead or fleeing after the VC player's subsequent turn, while the GG still had a second rank.

I will hold to the idea that Knights (of pretty much all types) have to be much more careful in who and when they initiate charges in this edition.

Dokushin
19-07-2010, 21:33
Meh, thin 'em out with templates, as mentioned. Two salamanders could easily put 50 S3 hits into that unit with the length (to minimize scatter impact).

In a fight, it's just one extra attack per model. I think this formation is getting more respect than it deserves. In addition, horde doubles the cost of ranks, making steadfast a lot less likely.

I mean, I play LM, so I'm probably biased since I have no use for it. But it just seems like a decent way for super-cheap troops to capitalize on numbers, not some massive overbearing game-winner.

If it becomes trouble, just outmaneuver it -- the wheel on that thing has to be ridiculous. Take the flank if you can, attack it with stuff, whittle it down, or just avoid it if necessary. All assuming that fire throwers, breath weapons, and stone throwers aren't available.

senso
19-07-2010, 22:23
Was just thinking about one possible combo for Beastmen - against a horde army you could stick Khazrak in the front rank of a unit with either a BSB (or unit of Bestigors) with banner of outrage - you can then scourge them (10 attacks for Khazrak) with re-rolls each turn.

Of course, that's just one unit and the rest of your army won't have nearly as much fire power in CC, but it's an idea.

Sandals
20-07-2010, 08:06
of ocurse they do Saldiven - nothing in the world would get me to charge that block of GG in the front, even with 5 units of kinghts!!!

Until i see otherwise, i still believe that a proper Brett charge still has a chance of breaking units. it's harder now that it was, and you need to pick your target and time it right, but i'm sure it can be done

Waagghh_Logan
20-07-2010, 08:58
I was a tad lucky but i used my tzeentch sorcerer to cast infernal gateway on a 50 strong horde of goblins. They didn't even get into combat. :)

RanaldLoec
20-07-2010, 09:44
I've run 3 hordes so far 36 great swords nearly 400 points, 30 flagellants 310 points, and 50 swordsmen 325 points.


The Greatswords against woodelves I failed 2 terror tests and ran off the board even with boosted ld 9, vs ogres I got into the flank of a 10 strong ogre unit equaled dead ogres.

Flagellants killed a unit of sarus cav in two turns leaving 25 flagellants alive initiative was a big factor here.

Swordsmen well killed a big block of nurgle plauge bearers with a hearld on a planquinn. Then killed 6 flamers of tzeentch. Vs woodelves stood against a unit of 8 Treekin frontal charge, the Treekin fled due to warrior priest induced hate I had to pursue.

This left me in a wood where I got charged by 2 units of 12 dryads and 15 wardancers plus a noble.

Due to being in a wood my horde lost its rank bonus the skirmishes were stubborn 2 turns later 1 dead horde, bsb, warrior priest.

Urdokadin
20-07-2010, 09:49
The only way I can see brett lances being really viable is if you have paladins/lords in those lances to boost up the CR and having damsels buffing those units.

Just the other day my buddy made a deathstar lance just for kicks, had a lord, paladin bsb and a damsel in there, they charged a block of 30 Marauders, killed 12 of them, I directed my attacks back into lance and managed to kill 4 or 5 of the knights after they'd decimated my unit, after that the unit was non-functional, it didn't have the ranks to negate steadfast nor did it have enough combat prowess left to threaten anything else in the army reliably because of how fragile a package knight units really are.

And that was from a NON horde unit, hordes just make the problem even worse, you need to thin horde units out before you even think of engaging them, if you don't have any tactical capability to hurt your opponent before he reaches your lines, you either need to have units that can utterly trump his horde or you need to have artillery/mages to do the job.

Waagghh_Logan
20-07-2010, 09:57
I havn't tried it but you could always us wulfric the wanderer with lots of maruaders or a big block of miners to apear at the start of the game and try to get in possition for a rear charge on the horde

RanaldLoec
20-07-2010, 10:04
Oh god I marauder horde led by wulfric coming on behind my empire now that is scary.