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Boss Zagstruk
19-07-2010, 20:02
Before i start id just like to say i think 8th ed is great and generally dont have any issues with it. But to me 8th ed seems to offer too much choice with min and max points restrictions. Now that theres nothing saying i can only take a lord and 3 heroes or 4 heroes i go crazy as long as im under the max points for that section. I keep forgetting that i can field 2000pts but if you add the percentages up youve got 3000 points if you take min core and max everythin else. Crazy. Anyone having this trouble or is it just me going points crazy?

Lord of Divine Slaughter
19-07-2010, 20:04
The percentages are limits, not goals :D

GodlessM
19-07-2010, 20:06
Wooptydoo, I'd love to see how your 4 characters actually win games for you against properly balanced armies that actually take advantage of the rules. Over concentration of characters is the number one mistake of army building for 8th edition (unless you are Tomb Kings).

Dokushin
19-07-2010, 20:26
My first few 8th lists went like that -- I'd use the old 7th edition philosophy of "fill the slots", and so first I'd take 25% lords, then 25% characters, then 25% core... oops, only 25% left for special and rare, better fill rare first... and so forth. Those lists were too light on infantry, too heavy on cavalry, and (while they won) were not nearly as effective as my current lists.

After a few rounds of that I just started building my list with those ideas in the back of my head. After making a few lists you get a feel for how much stuff you can bring -- I don't have to add up points to know that trying to take an oldblood w/ carnosaur in addition to a Slann at 2.5k would be (if not impossible) a huge squeeze leaving them both vulnerable, or that if I take an Ancient Steg it's going to hurt the Chameleon Skinks I like to field, or that the two 6x4 Saurus blocks I like pretty much take care of my core. This was an improvement.

But after that, I kind of hit a golden age of list development. Now, I barely even think about the limits; I take as much infantry as I think I'll need for the idea in my head, then I'll take the stuff that makes it work, then I'll toss in some support, and then I'll add up the points and fit in the extra stuff. The percents just work out -- I'll usually be at about 35-40% core and 15-20% everything else. For at least the three armies I'm familiar with (LM, HE, Dwarves) if the percents become an issue you're not building your army right. Maybe that's not true for other armies, but for those three (and especially for my home team LM) it's what I love most about 8th right now -- not having to worry about what I take.

HeroFox
19-07-2010, 20:29
The percentages are limits, not goals :D

I like this quote a lot :)

Ultimate Life Form
19-07-2010, 21:08
It's just you. Anyone I know plays the same army as always. Though I want to see that unit of 20 Warlock Engineers one day.

Lord Inquisitor
19-07-2010, 21:10
Playing Ogres, Vampires and Daemons, I find that a Lord and three heroes maxes out my percentages pretty much exactly the same... :cries:

Lord of Divine Slaughter
19-07-2010, 21:12
I like this quote a lot :)

Thank you :)

Tae
19-07-2010, 21:13
I have DoC and WoC, so my percentages seem to get filled quickly enough without even trying.

DaemonReign
19-07-2010, 22:16
Yepp, there's no difference really for DoC - slots or percentages adds up to the same amount pretty much. The difference is I don't have to field as many core units anymore, and that's where things got interesting.. Now instead of meeting 3 semi-crappy blocks of Bloodletters that I had get to fill my Slot-requirement, you meet one 50-horde of Bloodletters that nothing in your army really wants to **** with.

After only playing one game with Daemon's in 8th, that's my take on this.

SilasOfTheLambs
19-07-2010, 22:36
I definitely made this mistake with my early empire lists. I got seven characters into 2250 and then got tabled... not enough steadfastness.

Maybe I'll start listing with specials ::muses::

Jared Blyte
19-07-2010, 22:59
Forcing 500 points of skeletons into the most recent army lists has taken its toll on the number of effective parts I have to say, but everyone has the same problems so its all fair in the end - unless your core is ... 'hard-core' ... sorry, couldn't resist that one!

Doommasters
19-07-2010, 23:06
Chaos Warriors are "hard-core" and fill the core % very well.

Nocculum
19-07-2010, 23:10
I very rarely, in any list I've constructed under 8th Edition guidelines, fulfilled my percentile limits or had difficulty in limiting spending.

25% of 2,000 is 250 points for a Lord.

25% of 2,000 is 250 points for heroes.

25% of 2,000 is 250 points minimum to spend on core units (which is pittance for...well, most armies to have to deal with).

25% of 2,000 for rare units is 250, which shouldn't limit virtually any army, except Steam Tank or double rare slot absurdity.

Always remember that, unless a character or unit can do something every game, unless it has one, two or three potential roles to fill, same to be said for items, number, rank and command, cut it from the list altogether. As HeroFox wisely said, these percentiles are limits, not goals.

Lord Inquisitor
19-07-2010, 23:18
You might consider investing in a calculator before you go writing your army lists ... 25% of 2000 is 500 and allows for rather more steam tanks ;):p:D

Tavendale
19-07-2010, 23:23
unless your core is ... 'hard-core' ... sorry, couldn't resist that one!

I like that you built in a dramatic pause there. I can just imagine you stroking your chin as you deliver that line :D

Nocculum
19-07-2010, 23:29
Duh, I did this in another thread, barely five minutes ago. I don't do maths, not at midnight, anyway :p

theunwantedbeing
19-07-2010, 23:53
Percentages are easy :)

Min-maxing is just more interesting now as you have alternate routes to go down than you had in 7th ed. Really throws a spanner into the works of those who are so used to 7th ed lists though.

Lord of the End Times
19-07-2010, 23:58
I very rarely, in any list I've constructed under 8th Edition guidelines, fulfilled my percentile limits or had difficulty in limiting spending.

25% of 2,000 is 250 points for a Lord.

25% of 2,000 is 250 points for heroes.

25% of 2,000 is 250 points minimum to spend on core units (which is pittance for...well, most armies to have to deal with).

25% of 2,000 for rare units is 250, which shouldn't limit virtually any army, except Steam Tank or double rare slot absurdity.

Always remember that, unless a character or unit can do something every game, unless it has one, two or three potential roles to fill, same to be said for items, number, rank and command, cut it from the list altogether. As HeroFox wisely said, these percentiles are limits, not goals.

You sure about that? My maths makes 25% of 2000pts to be 500pts...


Edit: Not quick enough

Alric
20-07-2010, 06:28
Before i start id just like to say i think 8th ed is great and generally dont have any issues with it. But to me 8th ed seems to offer too much choice with min and max points restrictions. Now that theres nothing saying i can only take a lord and 3 heroes or 4 heroes i go crazy as long as im under the max points for that section. I keep forgetting that i can field 2000pts but if you add the percentages up youve got 3000 points if you take min core and max everythin else. Crazy. Anyone having this trouble or is it just me going points crazy?

Not at all.

First, I play Chaos :evilgrin:
Second , these were the rules back in 3rd and 4th , made sense then as it does now.

CaptScott
20-07-2010, 06:33
I think it will really be worth the time creating an excel spreadsheet in 8th (if you have access to it). I've made a list builder for both Empire andf Lizards that display the percentages as I'm building it. Makes list design really easy, do it if you haven't.

Adjustquantity
20-07-2010, 06:37
I think it will really be worth the time creating an excel spreadsheet in 8th (if you have access to it).

I agree. It is totally worth the time as the program does the math right away. I make all my lists using excel now.

Urgat
20-07-2010, 07:50
It's just you. Anyone I know plays the same army as always. Though I want to see that unit of 20 Warlock Engineers one day.

Ahahaha, mine has totally changed :p. Now I can have a warboss to babysit my trolls, and another one to babysit the rest of my army, and my special choices have inflated tremendously.
Well I still got more cores than everybody else so who cares :p


I think it will really be worth the time creating an excel spreadsheet in 8th (if you have access to it). I've made a list builder for both Empire andf Lizards that display the percentages as I'm building it. Makes list design really easy, do it if you haven't.

I bought excel (well office 2000) on ebay a while ago, I should learn and do more advanced things like that some day.

Dokushin
20-07-2010, 07:54
Yeah, Excel makes it a lot easier. It's pretty easy to set something like that up; all you need is some really simple formulae. Tomorrow or the day after I'll write up a tutorial and post it in General.