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killerbot
20-07-2010, 10:14
Okay, so i was wondering a few things about miscasts.

first off does the damage taken from a miscast count as magical dmg, eg can i use magic resistance to boost my ward against it? so can i calim a 2+ward save against it for instance?

also if a Slann throws all the dice towards one spell, but for some reason doesnt get a IF, can that spell then be dispelled simply by the oponent rolling 2 sixs on 2 D6? i wasnt sure if was reading the dispell rules correctly in the new edition, as now 1,1 does nothing towards any magic effects.

hfb
20-07-2010, 11:19
Second question: Yes.

First question: It is my opinion that you cannot invoke magic resistance on the hit, but ward saves are obviously fine. I'm just about to go through the book to double check my ravings

Edit: The damage is not listed as magical, so I would say no, you don't get the magic resistance

killerbot
20-07-2010, 11:36
Edit: The damage is not listed as magical, so I would say no, you don't get the magic resistance

even though it is the result of a magical misfire? fair enough, i will have to give the book a good read over to try to find a way to make this work in my favour :D

pootleberry
20-07-2010, 11:44
Good question this. The double 6s certainly do dispel with IF, no probs with that.

At the moment I would have to think that the S10 hit is magical, from a fluff point of view, but I do have to agree with killerbot that this is not mentioned explicitly within the rules.

The rules regarding MR state that this value is added to a model's ward save, or provides a ward save, against damage caused by spells; a miscast isn't a spell so I don't think the MR adds to the ward save at all.

hfb
20-07-2010, 13:55
If this *does* turn out to be true, I'm certainly taking magic resist on my Slann...

killerbot
20-07-2010, 13:57
well, technically spells are just not combat attacks. so i belive the miscast to be some form of spell. :D

Dokushin
20-07-2010, 14:49
I thought this was silly until I started digging through the BRB.

MR states only that it applies to "damage caused by spells."

Miscasts refer to their wounding effects specifically as "damage."

The only real question remaining in that is "are Miscasts caused by spells" which seems to have a pretty clear answer.

I hope they address this specifically in the FAQ, as otherwise I'm going to feel compelled to take MR(3) on my Slann to get a 2+ ward vs. miscast wounds and a 4+ for the unit, which seems a trifle silly.

jaxom
20-07-2010, 17:59
This is not an issue. A miscast is not a spell therefore damage caused by a miscast is not damage caused by a spell. To say otherwise opens a nice little can of worms that you don't want to touch.

See that spell that makes you I10. Oops, your entire unit is damaging me because of a spell. Sword of Rhuin? Nope, that's a spell.

Miscast is not a spell and therefore no MR for saving against the wound from a miscast.

Agusto
20-07-2010, 18:46
I asked the very same question a few days earlier. Because if the damage is not magical, you can rest assured that I will be giving my High Elf mage Folariath's Robe in every game, making him immune to all but two of the results on the miscast table.

Agusto.

theunwantedbeing
20-07-2010, 18:52
It's magical damage that you don't get magical resistance against, same as how you don't get magical resistance against wounds suffered from magic swords.

You get saves that you might have though (except against the one that just kills you outright, although you get a save against the hit it deals before killing you).

jaxom
20-07-2010, 19:05
I asked the very same question a few days earlier. Because if the damage is not magical, you can rest assured that I will be giving my High Elf mage Folariath's Robe in every game, making him immune to all but two of the results on the miscast table.

Agusto.

Not to worry. Spells are not magical either (search all you want, you'll find nothing ruling them as such).

Rather than giving your mage Folariath's Robe, I might be more concerned with making your you have a good cup and possibly a catcher's mask for the inevitable BRB-to-the-head if you try that one.

Every Miscast result which causes damage to the caster is a release of "magical energies" in the text.

NitrosOkay
20-07-2010, 19:14
If we follow the claim it is not magical damage to its logical conclusion, then ethereal Slaan and Vampires are immune to miscast hits.

Agusto
20-07-2010, 19:17
As would High elves wearing the robe...

Paraelix
20-07-2010, 20:30
even though it is the result of a magical misfire? fair enough, i will have to give the book a good read over to try to find a way to make this work in my favour :D

*Rolls eyes*

Clearly you've missed the many, many threads arguing that Ethereal casters can't be harmed by it as it does not constitute a magical attack.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 08:00
so i think we have gathered that either i can claim my 2+ ward save for my slann, or i can be immune to the dmg thanks to being etherial?

awsome guys, will definatly be trying this 2nite at my games club, but will discuss with my oponent before trying anything that might get me hated :D

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 08:08
so i think we have gathered that either i can claim
awsome guys, will definatly be trying this 2nite at my games club, but will discuss with my oponent before trying anything that might get me hated :D

Oh hey... Let us know how it goes... Assuming all of the decent people in the world didn't beat you to death for fear your madness might spread.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 09:33
Oh hey... Let us know how it goes... Assuming all of the decent people in the world didn't beat you to death for fear your madness might spread.

Lol, nah most of the guys at my store are nice, and i hang around with them outside hobby bits, so most of them will listen to me :D might drop the GW support team an email about this just to clear things up, as i dont want to start playing it one way, then have an FAQ come out telling me i am stupid and people accusing me of cheating a lot xD

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 09:57
Lol, nah most of the guys at my store are nice

Then why do it?

Archangelion
21-07-2010, 10:08
I say make your caster have magic resistance 3 and also be ethereal. That covers both bases, so if your oponent tries to say that it isn't magical, then you don't get wounded at all because your ethereal, and if your oponent sais that it is a magical attack caused by a spell, then you get your ward save :rolleyes:... if your opponent, on the other hand, states that miscasts are magical attacks that are not caused by a spell (which is the way I see it) then your pooched!

killerbot
21-07-2010, 10:09
Then why do it?

why do what? its not like i am attempting to abuse the rules or anything, i just want to know where i stand with the whole MR and miscast thing, as chances are there will be other people doing it too.

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 10:12
its not like i am attempting to abuse the rules or anything

There is clearly no intention for Miscast effects to not harm Ethereal units. It is ruleslawyering. As is the concept of treating it as a spell unto itself.

This is also in the same boat as stacking Frenzy and refusing to take wound from Unstable due to Ethereal.

You are looking for ways to subvert the rules.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 10:23
no not really, i am simply saying that as it is a magical discharge of energy it would make sence to be able to use the same sort of prevention against magic against a backlash of magic. fluff wise it sort of makes sence.
But even a 4+ ward with me allowed to re roll on the miscast anyways i am fairly happy with that.

Teongpeng
21-07-2010, 10:30
There is clearly no intention for Miscast effects to not harm Ethereal units. It is ruleslawyering. As is the concept of treating it as a spell unto itself.

This is also in the same boat as stacking Frenzy and refusing to take wound from Unstable due to Ethereal.

You are looking for ways to subvert the rules.yup..thats like abusing the bugs in a computer game to gain a hugely unfair advantage (because thats not how the game is meant to be played).

Pertaining to this thread, I'm not sure about how miscast would work though.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 10:40
i think that if you can find a respectable reason why you think something should not happed people should just accept it. GW have always had some problems when not thinking about certain things but every "house" agrees on House rules rather than waiting for an Faq, personally i feel that a 2+ ward is acceptable, but saying that because i dont get a ward i dont get harmed thanks to etherial is a bit stupid, as it is magical lol its a Magical Miscast afterall. so either way you look at it ethereal creatures still take dmg from it, so surely you could claim a wardsave from it, as you have established that it is magic.

But tbh if i was playing anyone and they were getting that annoyed about it, i would just go with the flow, after all, it is just a game and i play it to have fun :D

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 10:50
If someone looked me in the eye and tried to argue either of those cases... I would start to pack up my models.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 10:54
lol, then you are not worth playing against lol. Anyone that takes your attitude towards again no offence, but is kinda pathetic.
I dont like it when people abuse rules and trust me, there are quite a few at my club who do it a lot, but if you are having a discussion about it before you start the game to clear it up i dont see that there is anything wrong with that. and if my opponent packed up and walked off i would just feel that i saved my self a few hours of a bad game.

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 11:01
but if you are having a discussion about it before you start the game to clear it up i dont see that there is anything wrong with that. and if my opponent packed up and walked off i would just feel that i saved my self a few hours of a bad game.

Well, you would have brought on the bad game by, more or less, trying to bend the rules to your advantage... When clearly you fully comprehend that the rules aren't meant to be used in such a fashion.

Secondly, if I was to sit and discuss every idiotic and retarded notion brought up by anyone on warseet in relation to abusing and molesting the new 8th edition rulebook and various 7th ed Army Book difficulties, then I may as well not play... Because I'd be there for hours.

I walked into my local and laughingly told the staff that people on the internet believed they could get away with this rubbish. The manager went on his usual tirade against gamers on forums, one said the notion was idiotic, and the other described a situation in which he would feign showing the person a paragraph in the rulebook before using it to cave in their skull.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 11:07
When clearly you fully comprehend that the rules aren't meant to be used in such a fashion.

Tell me where exactly in the BRB it tells us that firstly Miscasts arent magical, and 2ndly where it tells us that they can effect etherials?




Secondly, if I was to sit and discuss every idiotic and retarded notion brought up by anyone on warseet in relation to abusing and molesting the new 8th edition rulebook and various 7th ed Army Book difficulties, then I may as well not play... Because I'd be there for hours.
.

Right, first off i am not bending the rules to suit me, i am merely suggesting. then i am also not bending it only my means, but to my opponents as well. both of us will be equally at an advantage to using it this way. also i really dont think you are quite understanding what i am trying to say. i am not saying that i would put a gun to thier head and tell them that we are using the rules like this, like it or lump it. i am merely stating that the rules could be interpreted this way. i am not abusing the book as it is written it neither says either way i would be abusing the rule if i would a misprint which technically allowed me to do something, but i am not. if my opponent wont let me do that i have no problem what so ever. i feel that you are just flaming either because you would not bennefit from it, or you just dont see where i am coming from with this.

Palantir
21-07-2010, 11:09
From the perspective of what would benfit the game, I hope GW allows some form of magic defense against miscasts. If not, I might never put my wizard in a unit again for fear of him blowing them all up with S10 hits, like what happened in a game Malorian had on youtube against Beastmen where his opponents wizard destroyed his own Bestigor unit with one miscast.

I somehow doubt GW intended for us to keep our wizards out of units, trailing behind alone. MR saves would be fine with me.

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 11:18
Tell me where exactly in the BRB it tells us that firstly Miscasts arent magical, and 2ndly where it tells us that they can effect etherials?
As previously pointed out, there are loopholes that a person can quite easily see how they are meant to function, ie Magic Weapons = Magical Attacks. Let's not get into an argument of "I can do this because it doesn't say I can't..."


Right, first off i am not bending the rules to suit me, i am merely suggesting.
No. As you previously stated... You fully intend to use the rules in this way to your benefit.


then i am also not bending it only my means, but to my opponents as well. both of us will be equally at an advantage to using it this way.
Ok. You rock up with an Ethereal Slann. I bring an army of Orcs and Goblins. How am I benefiting from your "interpretation" of the rules. Clearly, you have a benefit and I don't.


also i really dont think you are quite understanding what i am trying to say. i am not saying that i would put a gun to thier head and tell them that we are using the rules like this, like it or lump it.
And yet you attempt to make fun of me for being a gamer who won't put up with loop-hole-finding-rules-lawyery... I said if someone tried to argue the case that they could use the rules in such a fashion, I would leave. I would of course tell you not to blatantly abuse the rules first, and give you a chance to say "Ha, my bad". But nothing more. Open your mouth and say "But..." and I'm gone.


i am merely stating that the rules could be interpreted this way. i am not abusing the book as it is written it neither says either way i would be abusing the rule if i would a misprint which technically allowed me to do something, but i am not.
It doesn't say either way... But make the intuitive leap.
1) I wonder if the feedback of magical energy is magical? Yes.
2) I wonder if the magical feedback is a spell, thus allowing me to use Magic Resistance? No. You do not cast a miscast, it is a byproduct.


if my opponent wont let me do that i have no problem what so ever. i feel that you are just flaming either because you would not bennefit from it, or you just dont see where i am coming from with this.
I play Lizardmen. I could potentially benefit. But as I am not obsessed with winning or finding loopholes that are counterintuitive to the mechanics of the game, I would never attempt to "interpret" the rules in such a manner.

So long as you dropped the case as soon as you were told "no", we wouldn't have a problem... But as you appear to be continuing to argue the case, I doubt that would be likely.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 11:33
Firstly i am not obssesed with winning, infact i cant really remember the last time i won a game with my lizzies. but with new rules ther are awlays new questions, just like there are everytime a new army book is released, and no one will ever be happy till an Faq is written about it.

Again, you just arent getting it are you? i am mearly stating that it COULD be used. I am NOT saying that i will argue against my opponent or a friend to get away with "Breaking" the game.

and fyi, i am arguing because i feel that you are not understanding what i am saying, so just simply trying to explain to you. i am pretty sure also if i was to spend time looking at the book there would many other things which would leap out of the pages, but as you can probrobly tell from my origonal post, i am pretty sure i am not trying to break any game, just quite simply asking a very simple question.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 11:36
also as other people have stated that the dmg is not listed as magical. even though it blatenly is. so judign by your logic of not interpriting rules in your own way, can i calim that my ethereal slann is fine against miscast dmg?

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 11:38
You have already stated that you intend to use it in a game. Therefore, you are not merely stating that it could be used in such a way. Also, you will find that at no point have I accused you of being obsessed with winning... I merely outlined that I was not.

Now answer this question; Do you wholeheartedly believe that the rules suggest that Ethereal units are immune to Miscasts/Unstable, or that Magic Resistance could be used against a Miscast? Do you believe that anything in the fluff, and thus the intention behind the rules, supports this notion?

EDIT- No. You are not immune to the miscast. Clearly you are the one misunderstanding posts.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 11:46
You have already stated that you intend to use it in a game. Therefore, you are not merely stating that it could be used in such a way. Also, you will find that at no point have I accused you of being obsessed with winning... I merely outlined that I was not.

Now answer this question; Do you wholeheartedly believe that the rules suggest that Ethereal units are immune to Miscasts/Unstable, or that Magic Resistance could be used against a Miscast? Do you believe that anything in the fluff, and thus the intention behind the rules, supports this notion?


1. by stating that you are not obsessed with winning you are implying that i am or it would be a completely irrelivent comment.

2. i would ask my oponent their thoughts on the matter before using it of course i would. and if my opponent can give a good reason, which i feel you are getting rather close to, why i cant use it, then fair enough, GG to them. if they are unhappy about me using it ho-hum i wont use it, as a 4+ ward against the miscast with re roll and the possibility of 2+ cupped hands is good enough for me on the miscast front, as most results would be a 7 which is str6 hit and -D6 to hits.

3.

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 11:53
So people have to prove you wrong or you'll do what you like?

You're opening a can of worms. A can of worms that may well sucker in people who have not had time to examine the rulebook and make an informed decision.

My army automatically wins. You disagree? Tell me where it says it doesn't...

killerbot
21-07-2010, 11:55
lol, WTF is all i can say to you man, you are just being very very difficult and making wild acusations which have nothing to do with what i just said. i say that there is a chance that you could use this if you oponent allows you, only ********s wouldnt listen to your reasoning. secondly i am not opening a can of worms, if you listen rather than being defencive you will understand.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 11:56
this thread has just turned into you flaming me, for asking a simple ruling question, so i will close it in a few minutes, but before which i am sure you will flame some more.

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 12:00
I am not flaming you. You keep talking yourself in circles... Saying how you won't use this to your advantage when you have already said you are. The thread basically played out "Can I twist this rule?", to which someone replied "It is very twisty", and you then stated "I'm going out to twist this rule with my friends."

shadow hunter
21-07-2010, 12:04
I gotta admit - I've seen plenty of other threads where people say you must follow Rules as written, even when (as far as I was concerned) they were blatantly wrong. In one way, why is this so different? I'm puzzled how we can choose (other than talking about it before hand) when to follow rules as written and when we should use as intended. It should be one or the other.

Personally, I would say it should harm ethereal and allow no magic resistance save, but (according to you all - i do not yet have the new book) it doesn't state it.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 12:04
lol, no i specifically said that i would ask them. that isnt twisting the rules as they arent clear either way, until an faq what am i supposed to do, not use my slann? that is the only reason i started this thread, and tbh if i ever played you i would not even try as you seem pretty sure it shouldnt be that way. but chances are that there will be people doing this in tornies and i really wanted to know one way or the other if they are allowed to use it in this mannor. obviously asking people on forums is the wrong thing to do as you just get moaned at about "abuising the rules" even though i just want to hear peoples opinions. after all an unstated rule is always down to opinions, yours and your oponents and no one elses.

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 12:09
I say again;

Now answer this question; Do you wholeheartedly believe that the rules suggest that Ethereal units are immune to Miscasts/Unstable, or that Magic Resistance could be used against a Miscast? Do you believe that anything in the fluff, and thus the intention behind the rules, supports this notion?


EDIT-

I gotta admit - I've seen plenty of other threads where people say you must follow Rules as written, even when (as far as I was concerned) they were blatantly wrong. In one way, why is this so different? I'm puzzled how we can choose (other than talking about it before hand) when to follow rules as written and when we should use as intended. It should be one or the other.
I play for enjoyment and play for the way the rules are supposed to be. One such incident would be playing vs Skaven Rogre list yesterday where I explained to my friend that, as per FAQ, his Master Moulders were supposed to be placed in the front rank... He said it was ridiculous, as did I, so we didn't use it that way.

Grey areas, counterintuitive rules, ridiculous FAQs, etc. if they hinder our game, and thus our enjoyment, we agree to ignore them. However, our reasoning always follows fluff and common sense.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 12:13
rules arent based on fluff and neither are fluff based on rules. rules come and go, but fluff remains. i feel that if a mage has something which protects him from magic attacks, then that mage should also be protected from magic going wrong, given that the magic going wrong had nothing to do with his protection. just like saying a knight(with very good armour:D) is still protected from his own sword if they were to fall on it thanks to his armour.

using these i fell that i have answered both of your questions. and again i never said that i felt that ethereals were immune to miscast, simply that others in this thread have said that they might be.

Paraelix
21-07-2010, 12:20
and again i never said that i felt that ethereals were immune to miscast, simply that others in this thread have said that they might be.
If you don't think that, then why would you try and use it in a game?

As to your fluff explanation...
BRB page 33

Magic is fickle, and writhes like a thing alive even whilst a Wizard shapes it to his will. Magic always strives to be free of constraint, and should the Wizard mispronounce a single word, or otherwise miscast the spell, the magic will shatter its bindings in a burst of incredible energy. Wizards can therefore be described as not trying to empower their spells, but to hold that same energy in check lest it prove to be their undoing
Ergo, the measures they've taken to protect themselves are the reason they don't instantly miscast with every attempt. A miscast comes as a result of too much power, something which overwhelms the wizard and his protections... You cannot resist a tear in reality...

I'm honestly suprised they even allowed Ward saves against Miscasts... In 40k they're forced to reroll passed Invuls because of the ridiculous energy unleashed.

shadow hunter
21-07-2010, 12:26
Quote= I play for enjoyment and play for the way the rules are supposed to be. One such incident would be playing vs Skaven Rogre list yesterday where I explained to my friend that, as per FAQ, his Master Moulders were supposed to be placed in the front rank... He said it was ridiculous, as did I, so we didn't use it that way.

Grey areas, counterintuitive rules, ridiculous FAQs, etc. if they hinder our game, and thus our enjoyment, we agree to ignore them. However, our reasoning always follows fluff and common sense.
*******

Sorry for the odd quotation - I'm at work and post using the 'safe for work' setting, but it doesn;t have all the options,

Anyway - that's decent of you, I admit that against my opponents I was (am) putting my master moulders etc in the front rank. A) as that's how it is wrote and B) as I know the rules better (though I am no veteran) than my opponents, and wouldn't want them thinking I was bending the rules.

Personally, I always play the rules as I (we) think they were intended. Although it can sometimes be tricky in certain circumstances.

Here I would agree that ethereal, nor magic resistance offer any protection. I am certainly not siding with that. However, I do often witness arguements on this forum where people state you must follow the rules as written. In this case, it would certainly favour a certain player/army style.

I do not play tourneys, so rarely have problems with rules. I find my friends generally are like minded and agree on any ambiguities in a similar fashion or result.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 12:28
If you don't think that, then why would you try and use it in a game?
.
omg, again i never said that i would use this in a game, i am saying that a MR Save should be allowed. nothing to do with ethereal, as miscast is of course magic damage.




Ergo, the measures they've taken to protect themselves are the reason they don't instantly miscast with every attempt. A miscast comes as a result of too much power, something which overwhelms the wizard and his protections... You cannot resist a tear in reality...

I'm honestly suprised they even allowed Ward saves against Miscasts... In 40k they're forced to reroll passed Invuls because of the ridiculous energy unleashed.


i still feel that a MR save as it is the name, magic resistance, i know you just said you cant resist it, but you are not, the item you hold is. i know it says in that one paragraph in the fluff that it overwhelms him and his protection, but thats why you get a saving throw rather than just saying i have this item so i dont feel it at all. i am sure you will be able to find some quotes where great mages have overcome miscasts because they are so awsome, which is why fluff isnt the rules. fluff is fluff to read and have some fun with when designing army lists. or i could claim that for example when fielding a say a Dark elves army i cannot include malekith (or how ever it is spelt) in a raiding force of 4k, as he is the leader of the DE's and therefore would not be present at such a small scale battle.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 12:32
Here I would agree that ethereal, nor magic resistance offer any protection. I am certainly not siding with that. However, I do often witness arguements on this forum where people state you must follow the rules as written. In this case, it would certainly favour a certain player/army style.

I do not play tourneys, so rarely have problems with rules. I find my friends generally are like minded and agree on any ambiguities in a similar fashion or result.


Thats Fair enough, all i am trying to say is discuss before game, then get one with it :D

DaemonReign
21-07-2010, 14:01
Thats Fair enough, all i am trying to say is discuss before game, then get one with it :D

I'd be insulted if someone brought something like that up.

I've read this entire thread.

Ethereal creatures are not immune to miscasts - I would be "ok" with them being immune to miscasts, as long as wizards could not be Ethereal.

Magic Resistence does not boost your Wardsave against Miscasts, again, if GW FAQ's it so that it does - I'd concider it fluffy and "ok" given that yes it is undoubtedly Magic and saying it's "different magic because it's not a spell just a sideeffect" doesn't sound very solid to me.

In the end, let's hope they DON'T FAQ this at all - because a change would exclude HE and Lizardmen from the "laws of nature" that every other magic casting player has to face. As I understand it, both HE and Lizardman can already hold their own in this Edition. The last thing we need is them being able to carelessly toss 6 dice at every spell they need invoked.

killerbot
21-07-2010, 14:41
i say they just need to faq it one way or the other