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Hooha
20-07-2010, 15:40
Core - 770 points
10 Handgunner
-Musician
-Marksman
>Hochland long rifle
x7

Special - 1434 points
10 Outrider
-musician
-Outrider Champion
>Hochland long rifle
x6

Heroes - 295 points
Wizard (Lore of Metal)
-Dispell Scroll

Wizard (Lore of Metal)
-Seal of Destruction

Wizard (Lore of Metal)
-Rod of Power

Lords - 495 points
Wizard Lord (Lore of Fire)
-Level 4
-Staff of sorcery

Arch Lector
x2

Points total - 2994

Before I launch into what this list is all about and how to use it, I want to discuss the possible variants. While that might seem backward, I want anyone reading this to realize that I do consider as many options and possibilities as I can theorize when making a list, and that I don't simply opt for min-maxing, which is an understandable conclusion given the composition I settled on. If you want to skip straight to the theoryhammer behind the comp that I did choose, scroll down to the section headed "the good stuff".

-War Machines-
One of the tougher things for me to forego in this list were Mortars and Hellstorm rocket batteries. In seventh edition, these were easy to leave out as they were so unreliable (especially without an engineer in the case of the mortar) as to be nigh useless. Now, however, pre-measuring, partials automatically hitting, and sharing the stone thrower rules make these formidable weapons of war. More than that, though, they can be considered to be relatively consistant. It would be a simple thing to trade two of those units of Outriders for a full set of six mortar, or a full set of four Hellstorm rocket batteries. Being the unlucky fellow that I am, however, I always strive for reliability in my lists. Despite their shiny new upgrades, these machines still perform too sporadically to warrant losing the 54 S4 armor-piercing shots and two hochland sniper rifle rounds per turn I'd have to give up to employ them. And I'm not just talking about misfires or drift rendering your shot ineffectual, here; They're far less effective against comps that use primarily large-base models or skirmishers, like Warriors of Chaos, Beastmen, and especially Ogre Kingdoms. In these cases, repeater handguns give up little if any of their efficiency. True, 6 mortar have the potential to kill far more skaven or goblins than 54 shots... but given the options we're weighing, that's kind of a 'win more' situation. Also, war machines are far easier for an opponent to deal with than a 10 man unit of fast cavalry. Suffice it to say, I wouldn't blame you if you traded some Outriders for your favorite war machines, but to my mind, the lead-slinging equestrians have the edge.

-The Stank-
I haven't heard much about the stank since 8th editions' release, but I know folks swore by it or about it during 7th, so I'll adress the absence of the aforementioned in my list; they suck now, for a few simple reasons. The first is that more robust magic makes them that much more vulnerable to casters. The second is that in the new metagame with giant quagmires of expendable troops flooding the table, they'll get stuck in and never come out. The biggest reason they're not worth their staggering points burden anymore, though, is that any strength will wound the thing on a 6 now. So your mighty steam tank can get poked into useleseness, if not pieces, by a lowly ocean of goblins. 'Nuff said.

-BSB-
I couldn't really find points for it, is the short version. With the meta game in my area, it was extremely important to fortify the magic defense in my list. I can only gain 20 points back from my core choices, probably by dropping 4 musicians from the handgunner units or, more likely, dropping all but one musician, buying one more handgunner, and putting the extra handgunner in the unit with the level 4 wizard and the musician in the unit with no hero/lord. That leaves me with dropping a whole unit of Outriders, or an Arch Lector. Dropping the Outriders would allow me to take the Imperial Banner, AND trade the Staff of sorcery for the Book of Amuhk (or whatever). But that kind of goes against the whole list, and costs me precious bullets. Dropping the Arch lector means I can't get my Imperial banner, but I could still trade the Staff of Sorcery for the Book... but I'd lose the two dispell dice the arch lector provides; a net loss in magic defense. As one would expect, the interplay between Lords, Heroes, and the items they take present the biggest avenue for variations on the list. If I didn't have to focus so heavily on anti magic, I probably would have left both Arch Lectors at home, instead opting for another level 4 wizard, and switched a few of the anti-magic toys to offensive-magic boosters. I forsee the lists' biggest weakness being leadership (hence all the musicians), so the conspicuous lack of a BSB is not lost on me. This is one of the discussions I was hoping this list would ignite.



-The good stuff-
Okay, so, the reason I reeeeally like this list is that it has a few aces up its sleeve, just incase all the synergy was not enough to completely crush your opponent. Lets start at the beginning; The fist thing you're going to do with this list when playing a game is completely abuse the Vanguard special rule. If you won the first turn, you're going to put 60 outriders within firing range of your opponents' most important units before the game even begins. If you're going second, you aught to strongly consider falling back instead, so their first move takes them just inside the range of your Outriders' guns (Edit - FAQ fail! Vanguard move must be made before rolling to see who goes first. This leaves a tougher choice; put your Outriders just barely within shooting range of the fastest opposing units and pray for first turn, or put your opponent in a tough spot by intentionally moving your outriders into the far-ish end of their charge range, to try and goad out failed charges, which this list punishes mercilessly. Then pray for the first turn anyway). A slow, unified advance wont be an option, because if they move up at all, your 70 handgunners and 4 wizards will have range on them. Either way, your first turn should see you unleashing a hailstorm of hot lead into the enemy forces. 168 shots if you're first, and ideally, 238 shots if you were second (but that's if you didn't lose anybody).

Here's where things REALLY start to get nasty - 13 of those shells come from Hockland long rifles. During your magic phase, some of these sniper shots should have been boosted with The Hammer of Sigmar prayer, Flaming Sword of Rhuin, and the lore of metal augment spell that affects shooting (I can't recall it right now). This aspect of the list, by itself, is going to dominate Dwarf armies (goodbye, war machine crew!), Elf armies (lol relying on overpriced T3 Lords and Heroes), and Vampire counts (Cripes! Your general died on turn one, and you couldn't do jack about it?!). Needless to say, the sheer volume of fire is all the answer you need for light infantry/cavalry.

That leaves monsters and numerous heavy infantry to deal with, rarer threats, to be sure, and both will probably decline in popularity and use given 8th ed changes. The lists' potent presence in the magic phase should help here, especially if you get those fire spells rolling with the special rule for the lore of fire (+3 to cast against a unit already lit on fire that phase!), but really this is where good generalship will come into play with this list. A small list of factors are going to all come together to prevent your easily killed, easily spooked soldiers from leaving you high and dry when the baddies get close.

The most important survival mechanism is the Machine Guns' potent options in the charge reactions step. Stand and shoot with 28 S4 AP shots, and if they don't slay the charging unit outright, they'll probably at least stand a chance of slaying whatever is left. Even if they don't, big deal - one unit of expendable light cavalry down! It's not like you lost a steam tank! But the more important option as far as this list is concerned is to flee. Live to fight another day is the key to victory with your Outriders. Their swift steeds should bear the endangered unit swiftly and safely away from the charging enemy, leaving their persuers exposed and begging to be perforated by any nearby outriders and pistoliers on your turn. Better still, those musicians mean that rolling an 8 or less on 2D6 means it was all a trick! The fleeing unit of Outriders will rally AND get to move (Usually further from the persuing unit, or out of its LOS if possible). That extra distance means that a successful charge on your opponents' next turn should be very unlikely, at which point a stand-and-shoot reaction is probably the order of the day. To be sure, proper fleeing, regrouping, facing, and Standing-and-shooting is at the heart of making this list the behemoth it can be.

The idea is that you'll cripple your opponents' list so hard on the first turn that he will be playing a catch-up for the next 5 turns; a feat that will be made all but impossible by the mobility and anti-magic capabilities of your list.

Rincewind
20-07-2010, 17:03
Short answer: Stone throwers.

Long answer: Stone throwers will abound in the new edition simply because everyone will be expecting a Horde. They can outrange all your units and cost next to nothing and if they focus fire they can cause several panic tests per turn, not to mention that with true LOS in 8th edition you can simply plop them down behind a terrain feature and your sniping will be useless. Your units have no banners so you will lose scenario 4 before the first turn, you are completely dependant on the game board being completely devoid of terrain not to mention that flyers and scouts will rip you to shreds. Like all one trick pony lists this will work terribly well against some enemies and simply terribly against others.

Hooha
20-07-2010, 18:06
Short answer: Stone throwers.

Long answer: Stone throwers will abound in the new edition simply because everyone will be expecting a Horde. They can outrange all your units and cost next to nothing and if they focus fire they can cause several panic tests per turn, not to mention that with true LOS in 8th edition you can simply plop them down behind a terrain feature and your sniping will be useless. Your units have no banners so you will lose scenario 4 before the first turn, you are completely dependant on the game board being completely devoid of terrain not to mention that flyers and scouts will rip you to shreds. Like all one trick pony lists this will work terribly well against some enemies and simply terribly against others.

I didn't design the list to play 'scenario 4', I designed it to win. Your dismissive assessment reeks of a lack of insight; because of true line of sight, MOST terrain will be extremely helpful to this list, conferring a weak +1 to the save of units using it as cover while it slows them down and often hurts them because of the magical terrain rules. Only terrain that COMPLETELY obscures a unit will be of assistance in the manner you suggest, and at my hobby center, we don't play with fortress walls scattered all over the table. On the rare occasion a unit that needs to die hides behind a small house or some such, fast calvary is uniquely suited to dealing with such a problem, and thats if the magic doesn't get to it, first.

Scouts and flyers die just like everything else. Going first, this list will get at least two rounds of shooting and magic against either, the first completely uninhibited. This is by every account a glass cannon, and if your generalship is too poor to utilize effective target priority properly, then yes; this list wont do much for you. But neither will many others.

As a list that heavily utilizes two of the three methods of engagement available in WFB (Shooting and Magic), it can hardly be called a 'one trick' pony. As for stone throwers, I'm having a difficult time thinking of how to properly convey how insignificant a threat they represent to this list. I'm not sure if you're contending I expect 6 or more stone throwers in ever list I play against, which is patently absurd, but the notion that any less than that would pose such an insurmountable threat to my list that it would be an auto-loss is so baffling that I don't know WHAT to make of it. At the end of the day, this list is a gun-line. Stonethrowers will land short, overshoot, misfire, and roll poorly to wound. When they do hit, you're looking at an extremely small percentage of casualties, anyway. But the fact remains that plunking them behind a wall or hut will not keep them safe from such a mobile list if they're the primary threat.

Short answer; Swing and a miss. Feel free to try again, though. :)

Rincewind
20-07-2010, 19:02
I'm not sure if you're contending I expect 6 or more stone throwers in ever list I play against, which is patently absurd, but the notion that any less than that would pose such an insurmountable threat to my list that it would be an auto-loss is so baffling that I don't know WHAT to make of it.

You should expect that, because that's exactly what you'll be facing after the first game people play against this list. You're using an extreme version of a gunline and then you express surprise when someone suggests you will be facing unbalanced lists or that your opponents won't adapt. Please.

True line of sight means that anything behind a terrain feature that blocks line of sight cannot be targeted. This doesn't just mean fortresses as you snidely suggest, but hills, buildings, even units. Seeing your 60 outriders, the enemy can simply plop their wizards and generals behind their units making your snipers useless.

Your outriders are toughness 3, save 5+ and they have leadership 7. Your opponent needs to kill 3 members from a unit by shooting to cause a panic test, easily doable by a stone thrower because, as you might remember, you can now just plop the template straight into the middle of the unit and roll to scatter, and 1/3 of the time it will be a straight hit. Cannons, bolt throwers, wizards and even archers and handgunners will be doing the same, not just sitting on their haunches. A single round of shooting or one spell is quite feasibly going to cause a panic test for your units. If you hide your wizards in handgunner units the stone throwers can be used to break those, if you keep them as single models they can be sniped in return by warmachines.

Scouts, cavalry (especially fast cavalry with their own vanguard move) and flyers are pretty nasty for you actually, because your army will be divided into two parts - flyers and fast cavalry will be able to charge your outriders on turn 1 and scouts can go have fun with the handgunners while the outriders are charging forward.

I'm not saying your list isn't very clever, I'm saying that you're relying too much on "crippling the enemy on turn 1" and disregarding the fact that you're putting 1,400 victory points into six units of very vulnerable troops (half your army in 60 wounds of T3 5+ save) who will break easily, especially with no battle standard. Sure, you can kill quite a few dudes on your first turn, but every outrider killed in return is 21 victory points.

PS. The "scenario 4" thing is simple - you play your opponent, you roll the scenario, if you get scenario 4 with an army with no banners, you autolose. So you've already lost 16,7% of all games you've played with this army. :p

Blitz001
20-07-2010, 19:07
PS. The "scenario 4" thing is simple - you play your opponent, you roll the scenario, if you get scenario 4 with an army with no banners, you autolose. So you've already lost 16,7% of all games you've played with this army. :p

rofl...better go back to the drawing board and get some banners....

Rincewind
20-07-2010, 19:13
Another thing that just occured to me is that if you're fighting vampire counts, the enemy general (hiding behind the units) can just magic up some zombies or skellies to tie up the outriders into combat. 4+ to cast, easily doable on even 1 die and the enemy will practically always have more power die than you have dispel die. Tomb Kings spamming priests can make their units shoot up your outriders in the magic phase to boot not to mention casket of souls deployed as far away from the middle as you can while the banner of the sands prevents your units from marching. :D

Hooha
20-07-2010, 19:55
If you're playing in a playgroup that forces randomozation of the scenario, and insists in adhering to a roll of a 4, even if it would cause an auto-loss, then two things should be self evident. First, take out an Arch Lector and buy a bunch of standards for your handgunners, and replace the Staff of Sorcery with the Book of Aesop while your at it. Secondly, find a new playgroup. Speaking of which, if you actually expect you playgroup to specifically purchase and build modifications to their list specifically to make it beat yours in subsequent games, then perhaps you really aught to look for a new group. That's not how tournaments are played, and that's not how things are done in most circles. I specifically designed a list that would give a ripping good fight to as many possible permutations of as broad a spectum of armies as possible, and you should be able to expect your playgroup to do the same. If not, it's probable there just aren't enough of you and your just playing to eachothers' lists.

If you look at the visual aid and accompanying caption provided in the shooting section of the rulebook, you'll realize that as long as I can see any part of the body or head of the model, I can shoot at it, perhaps with a cover save of some sort. This means not only that it will be nearly impossible to hide important units, especially from mounted and subsequently tall models like Outriders, but that if any unit is placed such that it cannot be seen by my outriders, then it cannot see my outriders, and subsequently cannot attack them unless it has some means of indirect fire that does not require LoS. such options are limited on casters, to say the least, and again, you won't be able to stay out of LoS of the Outriders for longer than a turn if the target really needs to die. It's rediculous to infer that someone whos army spends the whole game trying to hide poses a serious threat. Especially if they hide important models behind units, which the Outriders would of course evaporate, at which point the hochlands would put the cowards down.

Yes, scouts and fliers are tougher than most things on the army. Fortunately, most scouts die REALLY easily, and while fliers could certainly ATTEMPT a charge on turn one, it would usually be a fatal mistake; I move foreward with vanguard, kill a lot of stuff, somehow some fliers survive because I suffered a sudden bout of STUPID, they declare a charge, I stand and shoot, they fail their rediculously ambitious charge and are finished off on my turn 2.

Yes, the models in my army die easily. Hence 'Glass Cannon' status. Yes, their leadership sucks - Outriders will run... and they will rally with the help of their musician and the general. Sometimes a unit may even make it off the table. Darn, that's the game. I'm almost certainly going to come up with a version with a BSB though, to help alleviate that one chink in the armor. But I already adressed that in my first post, which I'm not entirely convinced you read.

You seem to think I'm giving up victory points too easily, and I will give up easy points, that's for sure. That's half of being a glass cannon. The other half is making sure that each one of those points you give up gets a point and a half out of the enemy before it goes, and Outriders have amazing returns in that respect. Near as I can figure it, an Outrider need only shoot an average of 2 to 3 times in a game to earn more than what he cost back in points. That's turn one and two, and a stand-and-shoot reaction. Others will live longer and shoot 4, or in some cases 5 times. That will simply average out with those that die or flee before they 'make their quota', of course, but even in my most conservative estimates, I'm ahead of the curve. And of course, those that survive until the end of the fight alleviate the need to make such high numbers at all. Also, the versatility of the fast cav put the ball in my court in this reguard, so to speak. If I sink most or all of an opponents blitzkrieg or long-range units, I can simply spend the rest of the battle employing the French Strategy, and retreat my way to a win.

All you've done is point out what I admitted to in the first post; My guys will run and die easily. If it's a problem, I might have to try running BSB in there. I don't expect it will be so bad, though. What YOU neglect to consider is the destructive potential of the units prior to the running and screaming. It's all just "I'll just hide my whole army behind a rock, and you'll clearly just stand there like a dullard and let me shell you to death!"

As for your VC "theory", the spell that raises undead on a 4+ is NOT the one that can create a new unit, that one is far tougher to cast. And tell my two Arch Lectors and my Rod of Power that my dispell dice will be outnumbered. Do you even KNOW the Empire army book? VC does not even begin to be a threat.

Like I said, the general WILL get shot to death unless he hides behind a house and doesn't move or contribute the whole game, in which case he still runs the risk of getting run down and shot, or magic'd to death. And I don't even feel the need to explain why I'm not worried about Tomb Kings. Perhaps when they get a new army book, friend.

I can't believe VC and Tomb Kings were your 'ace in the hole'. Had you come at me with Brettonians or Lizardmen, I might have had to make a few concessions.

Rincewind
20-07-2010, 20:46
When people post lists on this site, and its predecessors, they are asking for comments and criticism, not trying to win an argument over the internet. You won't last long here if you keep that attitude where you basically you posted the army list so people can say "Well done lad, you've won Warhammer!" and pat you on the back since you won't tolerate any actual critisicm. :D

Your first paragraph -1) it is unfair of you to come to a tournament with an army that is unable to play one of the main six scenarios of the game and assume that everyone else will adapt. 2) In a tournament you will most certainly run into armies that have heavily one-sides lists, like a Nuln gunnery school list or a Goblin Horde with 10 stone throwers, and if you keep playing the same army in the same playgroup don't you think that at some point someone will adapt to your playstyle? "Oh, we're having a campaign and Hooha's Outriders will take part, I'll just completely ignore their participation when thinking up my list!".

Second paragraph - stone throwers no longer require line of sight. Raise dead (casts on 5+, signature spell to boot) does not require line of sight. It would be seriously silly to assume that your Outriders could destroy every unit between them and the casters in one or two turns of shooting unless they are armed with M60 machine guns instead of repeater rifles, or that they could make their way to the warmachines that are specifically protected by blocks of infantry in one or two turns.

Third paragraph, see above. If you're shooting at the blocks, you're not shooting at the fliers and scouts and warmchines etc and vice versa. A versatile army should have multiple things which can threaten you and completely crippling every threat in a 3k point army in one turn is a tad unrealistic.

Fouth and fifth, let's say all your outriders manage to fire their guns three turns out of six (ambitious, since they will get killed, be out of range, fleeing etc), and that's most likely going to be at long range while moving. Outriders are a great unit but with such small numbers you can't assume that every shot you take will be against a high value target since you will have to prioritise anything that can reach you first - it's not as clear cut as you would have it.

Last bits, Vampire Counts actually have some nifty strategies they can employ - hiding their casters behind Spirit Hosts which are ethereal and immune to your shooting, not to mention big models, or like I said raising new units (5+ to cast, so very easy for a level 2 or 3) to block your avenues of advance, dance macabring these new units into your outriders, blasting your army with power-scrolled Winds of Death... there's simply quite a bit a magic-heavy VC army can do. You'd totally slaughter Blood Dragons, though. :p

Last but not least, if you had to fight a copy of your own army, what would you do?

Cartoon
20-07-2010, 23:39
Magic can be a little tougher to rely on just because you might end up with only 4 or 5 power dice to split between all those wizards. The +4 to cast will help but it's something to keep in mind.

The list itself seems like it would be pretty effective against most things, and for an army like mine (WoC) it would be an absolute nightmare. In fact the main drawback I can see is that it might not be a whole lot of fun to play against, depending on what army your opponent is playing. That's not to say you should throw the game or anything, just that if terrain is sparse it's going to be a pretty one sided engagement.

Then again I'm fairly biased against gun lines since they are the bane of my existence as a WoC player. There isn't much I can do to make it to your battle line without loosing over half of my force, if not more. Most games against gun lines I've found to be pretty much the same thing, if I make it to the battle line with at least a few guys I win, or I'm shot to pieces in the first few rounds and I lose. There isn't a whole lot of maneuvering or things of that nature so I generally don't enjoy them as much.

That's just my opinion though, I'm sure others certainly feel different. All in all I would think it will absolutely crush armies that are more close combat oriented, although the skaven storm banner might give you some trouble. Especially if you rolled poorly on the dice allotment for magic, almost your entire army could end up having to sit the game out for a turn which would give your opponent more time to reach you. Then again that's only one item in the entire game so it's probably not worth sweating.

bigjeffman80
22-07-2010, 20:34
For what it's worth, I've played Empire twice with the new 8th ed rules and taking Crossbowmen has been nice. Having the 30in range and firing in two ranks has caused some nasty damage to both the Daemons and Dark Elves I played.

Thalenchar
22-07-2010, 21:09
I love armies like these. Obvious strengths and (seemingly) obvious weaknesses. Also has a big 'wtf is my opponent putting on the table?!" factor in a tournament, which I completely love. I don't view lists like these as bad or min/maxing or whatnot. I think it forces your opponent to critically assess both your army and how he will counter it with his. For me, this is what tournament play is all about. The player who brings a list that can beat whatever he faces should win, no matter if he's playing a beautifully converted forest spirit force, a bog-standard uber daemon list or something he has never seen before (I'm assuming most players will not have played an army like yours before).
That said, I do feel that your army could do with a bsb, but that just might be my knee-jerk reaction to always get a bsb in 8th. Totally agree on the banners, btw. No need to get any unless there's a chance you'll be playing scenario 4. You'll only be giving away victory points needlessly.
The analysis you give of how to deal with different elements of the enemy's force seem sound, although I do feel Rinewind raises some good points. Stone throwers CAN hurt you, as can a table with a lot of terrain, among other things. Of course, they MIGHT not, which you also point out. And that's the beauty, to me, of this army. You can more or less counter whatever your opponent will throw at you and you will, most likely (in a tournament anyway), have the advantage that you will know exactly how to play with your army while your opponent will have think of a way to deal with your force on the spot. And that's where good generalship comes in.

Ok, I'm off to come up with a 2250 pts version of your list to see if I can use that in the next tournament I'll be playing in!

Justicar Valius
22-07-2010, 21:20
Well with clever deployment I can fully see this list taking mine apart. With only one stone thrower and Wulfrik to try and mess your back line up with I can see me being destroyed. Enough Tzeentch warriors with shields, one with characters in with the blasted standard could make it thourgh I suppose though.

VoodooJanus
23-07-2010, 03:12
Smarmy as the comment may have been- you should really put banners in your list, because there IS a chance you'll roll a 4 on the gametype table. It's going to shrink your army a bit, but you need at least 1 or 2. A BSB would also be invaluable to this list, because re-rolls are really, really handy. Also- don't forget your guns are MoF, so you're going to get stuck in many instances in prolonged firefights getting outmaneuvered. In fact, for this very reason, I'd suggest pistoliers (as much as Outriders are 100x cooler), because any army with a fast cav unit will be able to hit your deployment zone's flank- which will then allow them the opportunity to roll up your line. Pistoliers can fix that problem quite nicely.

Lastly- I'd like to point out that at this level, you're likely to be facing a 3000 point list. This complicates things for many reasons, but primarily, it means that your rather impressive volume of fire is going to be diminished against armies like Skaven (who are rapidly growing in popularity) or Orks and Goblins. I've seen 8th edition Goblin hordes go up against gunlines. It isn't pretty. Ogres would also give you issues in the form of Gorgers. 4 of those nasty buggers is a tiny investment, yet could totally shut down your army. These are just things I'm coming up with on the top of my head, spur of the moment. I'm sure there are more.

2 things you need to consider rulewise though. 1. Vanguard movement is unclear on whether the unit in question counts as having moved for its first turn (thereby preventing you from firing, this'll likely be addressed in a future FAQ), and 2. You cannot end your movement closer than 12" away from an enemy unit. This essentially means that a canny opponent can do one of two things. 1. place his cheap, expendable scouts (who deploy before vanguard movements are made, but after your units are deployed) directly in front of your outriders, spread out so that your vanguard move is largely negated, and/or 2. place his fast cav (especially if they're on the cheap like Chaos warhounds or direwolves) directly across (or, even better, caddycorner) from yours, likely getting a vanguard movement of his own, hindering any further vanguard movements you will want to make.

This list is cool (although feels a bit min-maxed, as you expressed earlier in your post), but it has some seriously nasty shortfalls. Be wary of those tricksy opponents, and you should do just fine! :D

Nathangonmad
23-07-2010, 12:03
Looks like a bad version of a gunline to me. Although it would be amusing to play this with my dwarfs and simply outranged and smush thoughs squishy t3 dudes ;)

Hooha
23-07-2010, 12:25
Smarmy as the comment may have been- you should really put banners in your list, because there IS a chance you'll roll a 4 on the gametype table. It's going to shrink your army a bit, but you need at least 1 or 2. A BSB would also be invaluable to this list, because re-rolls are really, really handy. Also- don't forget your guns are MoF, so you're going to get stuck in many instances in prolonged firefights getting outmaneuvered. In fact, for this very reason, I'd suggest pistoliers (as much as Outriders are 100x cooler), because any army with a fast cav unit will be able to hit your deployment zone's flank- which will then allow them the opportunity to roll up your line. Pistoliers can fix that problem quite nicely.

Lastly- I'd like to point out that at this level, you're likely to be facing a 3000 point list. This complicates things for many reasons, but primarily, it means that your rather impressive volume of fire is going to be diminished against armies like Skaven (who are rapidly growing in popularity) or Orks and Goblins. I've seen 8th edition Goblin hordes go up against gunlines. It isn't pretty. Ogres would also give you issues in the form of Gorgers. 4 of those nasty buggers is a tiny investment, yet could totally shut down your army. These are just things I'm coming up with on the top of my head, spur of the moment. I'm sure there are more.

2 things you need to consider rulewise though. 1. Vanguard movement is unclear on whether the unit in question counts as having moved for its first turn (thereby preventing you from firing, this'll likely be addressed in a future FAQ), and 2. You cannot end your movement closer than 12" away from an enemy unit. This essentially means that a canny opponent can do one of two things. 1. place his cheap, expendable scouts (who deploy before vanguard movements are made, but after your units are deployed) directly in front of your outriders, spread out so that your vanguard move is largely negated, and/or 2. place his fast cav (especially if they're on the cheap like Chaos warhounds or direwolves) directly across (or, even better, caddycorner) from yours, likely getting a vanguard movement of his own, hindering any further vanguard movements you will want to make.

This list is cool (although feels a bit min-maxed, as you expressed earlier in your post), but it has some seriously nasty shortfalls. Be wary of those tricksy opponents, and you should do just fine! :D

This and the other posts above it are the sort of constructive feedback gold I was hoping for! Thanks bunches to everyone who read the list and the tactica and took the time to comment, it makes me feel pretty big even though opinions seem split on viability.

A few people seemed to mention potentially exposed flanks. If a fast unit gets in the flank, all hell will break loose - I don't see how it can't. That said, with a 65+ model wide frontage on the gunline, I'm thinknig it might be difficult just to fit it on the table. I'm not sure any fast cav attempting to flank would be able to survive running through the shooting arc of 30handgunners.

As for the scouts deployment, that's dirty pool, but I suppose I can't complain with this list in hand. Such tactics would certainly put a damper on the delicious abuse of the vanguard move at the heart of this list. Hopefully with practice, the general of the Machine Gun would be able to use such a suicidal expendature of VP against his opponent.

The Vanguard rule seems pretty clear to me; the move is made before the game starts, thus before turn one - therefore, the models have not moved during turn one.


Thalenchar - You totally made my day, man! Godspeed, and I hope you sweep your tournament with whatever rendition you come up with! If it's not too much trouble, please come back and let us know how it turns out! As a related aside, this list was origionally a 2250 designed under/to work with 7th edition rules. There actually aren't that many more outriders in the new list, but there are MANY more handgunners (Which is okay, because it adds enough hochlands to where you should be able to count on killing at least one hero per turn), and MUCH more magic defense.

Thalenchar
24-07-2010, 20:59
No problem, man. I always enjoy seeing lists like this. I got a kick out of reading "Malorian's 150 Night Goblins in one unit" list too. This list I like especially because it does require a fairly good plan as well. You need to play with this list a few times before you can use it to its full effect.
I have been trying to come up with a 2250 pts list to use but I've been kinda stomped by the the tournament's additional restrictions. They will only allow me to take a max of 2 outrider units while I would prefer 3 (well, I'd prefer 4, but the 25% cap won't let me :p). They've said they will revise the rulespack (which has been online since before 8th was officially released) before september, so I'll have to wait until then to see which version of this army I can do. Of course, until then I can just start painting outriders and handgunners!

As an aside, I've also been trying to work a additional wizard lord with the Unfolding Fortress into this list and upping one unit of hand gunners to 15. I know it will somewhat change the way this list works, but it does give me a unit of 15 handgunners who can all fire, plus somewhere safe to hide my bsb behind / in. I was intrigued by the use of the Fortress by a thread on it in the Tactics forum.

Blackmagic
24-07-2010, 21:20
I stopped reading after the first few posts made by the original poster, all i can say is that you have some serious issues. You post a list and then become snotty, insolent and downright childlike when someone offers you constructive and quite valid criticism. You talk about people changing their gaming circles because said circles play scenarios and you have the gall to suggest that your obviously imbalanced list was designed to give people within your gaming circle 'a ripping good time.'

Go home boy.

lilljonas
24-07-2010, 21:40
It's a horrible list for pick-up games because it strives for your opponent to have as little input in the outcome of the game as possible, which of course is contrary to a game being fun. However, I hope it is more intended for tournament games, as a player with this list would be rightfully shunned from any healthy gaming group.

I don't see any realistic comp set allowing this, not just for being powerful but rather for being a complete drag to play against, so good luck at 'ard boyz I guess? My critique against the list is not aimed at whether it will win or not. Honestly I think it is a coin-toss list that will pretty much automatically win or lose based on what opponent you are facing and whether or not you get first turn. Instead, I'm critical of what you will actually get out of spending the time and money to build such an army. Very few players would play you twice (or even once, if they've seen the army play before) simply because it is extremely one dimensional and you won't get a new experience from playing it again. That leaves tournaments, where people are forced to play you, and in most areas there'll be comp rules to prevent armies just like yours. So where does that leave you?

Hooha
25-07-2010, 01:58
It's a horrible list for pick-up games because it strives for your opponent to have as little input in the outcome of the game as possible, which of course is contrary to a game being fun. However, I hope it is more intended for tournament games, as a player with this list would be rightfully shunned from any healthy gaming group.

I don't see any realistic comp set allowing this, not just for being powerful but rather for being a complete drag to play against, so good luck at 'ard boyz I guess? My critique against the list is not aimed at whether it will win or not. Honestly I think it is a coin-toss list that will pretty much automatically win or lose based on what opponent you are facing and whether or not you get first turn. Instead, I'm critical of what you will actually get out of spending the time and money to build such an army. Very few players would play you twice (or even once, if they've seen the army play before) simply because it is extremely one dimensional and you won't get a new experience from playing it again. That leaves tournaments, where people are forced to play you, and in most areas there'll be comp rules to prevent armies just like yours. So where does that leave you?

Contrary to the experience a lot of players seem to project onto others, the rule in one circle might be absurdity in another. Lists like the Machine Gun are bred, and thrive in, play groups in which ALL the lists are 'powergamed'. I'll be using this list against the guy that maxed out on Engine of the Gods in 7th, the woman with the hard-bitten, anvil-of-doom abusing dwarven gunline, the kid that hunts online for any way to maximize the cheesitude of his skaven list, and so forth. And do any of us **** and moan about comp? Well, the kid does, but only when he's losing. The answer is 'no' for the rest of us. Every playgroup is not sunshine and fluffy bunnies, and it doesn't have to be. These people get excited by extremely competetive circumstances.

A massive part of playing any turn-based game where you 'choose your forces' prior to a game (from Warhammer to Magic the Gathering) is the strategy and polish that goes into your selected composition, and thats what I and my playgroup enjoy most about Warhammer - not who can roll a lucky charge or flawlessly allocate their casting dice.

So perhaps we do know who has an edge when two given players square off with 150 goblins vs Machine gun, or 4 hydras and a witch cult vs skaven cheese. But sometimes the underdog comes out on top, and the potential for that to occur makes every game with these lists terribly interesting, even after we had all the fun crafting such finely-tuned machines.

We get to have our cake and eat it, too, because we don't cry and refuse to play eachother.


BlackMagic - Thanks for the bump, kiddo ;)

Hooha
25-07-2010, 02:24
No problem, man. I always enjoy seeing lists like this. I got a kick out of reading "Malorian's 150 Night Goblins in one unit" list too. This list I like especially because it does require a fairly good plan as well. You need to play with this list a few times before you can use it to its full effect.
I have been trying to come up with a 2250 pts list to use but I've been kinda stomped by the the tournament's additional restrictions. They will only allow me to take a max of 2 outrider units while I would prefer 3 (well, I'd prefer 4, but the 25% cap won't let me :p). They've said they will revise the rulespack (which has been online since before 8th was officially released) before september, so I'll have to wait until then to see which version of this army I can do. Of course, until then I can just start painting outriders and handgunners!

As an aside, I've also been trying to work a additional wizard lord with the Unfolding Fortress into this list and upping one unit of hand gunners to 15. I know it will somewhat change the way this list works, but it does give me a unit of 15 handgunners who can all fire, plus somewhere safe to hide my bsb behind / in. I was intrigued by the use of the Fortress by a thread on it in the Tactics forum.

Ouch.... only being able to take two would be bad news indeed. The only reason I considered this list viable at 2250 in 7th was because you could take four units. Perhaps 2 ranks of fire and vanguard will be enough to see you through... but if you can only have 2 units or Outriders and you're hoping to keep the 'wall of lead' strategy, I can only assume that means you're currently thinking of loading those two units down with a LOT of Outriders. That would make them unwieldy, and it would be a devastating hit to lose even one of the two units, which is still pretty easy for your opponent to do. Worst of all; you can only fire on 2 units per turn with your Outriders. More units means more options. If there's a unit of 10 DE witches bearing down on you, they'll wipe you out if they reach you, but there'd be a lot of wasted lead to unload a unit of 17 Outriders at them. I'm sure you'll have plenty of handgunners that could deal with that scenario, but the point is still valid.

If you're thinking there's going to be a lot of horde at this tourney, you might consider more modest units of Outriders and spending some Rare points on Rocket Batteries. ESPECIALLY if you think there'll be decent toughness horde (WoC, Beastmen)

lilljonas
25-07-2010, 08:20
Contrary to the experience a lot of players seem to project onto others, the rule in one circle might be absurdity in another. Lists like the Machine Gun are bred, and thrive in, play groups in which ALL the lists are 'powergamed'. I'll be using this list against the guy that maxed out on Engine of the Gods in 7th, the woman with the hard-bitten, anvil-of-doom abusing dwarven gunline, the kid that hunts online for any way to maximize the cheesitude of his skaven list, and so forth. And do any of us **** and moan about comp? Well, the kid does, but only when he's losing. The answer is 'no' for the rest of us. Every playgroup is not sunshine and fluffy bunnies, and it doesn't have to be. These people get excited by extremely competetive circumstances.


So you have four or five extreme lists where the outcome of each game is pretty much decided either at the point where opponents are chosen, or at least when the roll for who gets turn one is done. Happy gaming I guess, I just don't see the fun in it for any of you. But if it works for your group...

Anda a coin toss is not competative, it is the extreme opposite: down to mostly pure luck.

Rincewind
25-07-2010, 12:46
According to the new Warhammer rulebook FAQ, Vanguard moves must be taken before rolling to see who goes first.

Thalenchar
25-07-2010, 14:08
That'll add a nice gambling element to moving Vanguard units and will make this army even trickier to use. Then again, that'll also make it more satisfying if it works ;)

Vrigor
25-07-2010, 18:40
I thought with new rules you can't have more than 3 of the same special choice? doesn't 6 outrider units break that?

TheKingInYellow
25-07-2010, 20:03
I thought with new rules you can't have more than 3 of the same special choice? doesn't 6 outrider units break that?

Don't question the list. It's perfect. Just ask him.

Vrigor
25-07-2010, 20:28
oh its the high elf portion of the empire. i see.

Eta
25-07-2010, 21:11
I thought with new rules you can't have more than 3 of the same special choice? doesn't 6 outrider units break that?


Don't question the list. It's perfect. Just ask him.


oh its the high elf portion of the empire. i see.

Perhaps you should read page 135 of the rulebook again and look at the term "Grand Army" ;).

Greetings
Eta

Vrigor
25-07-2010, 21:50
I take it its another rule that makes high elf rules even less prevalent. Feeling more and more like the high elves will be shelved untill 9th edition or till they get new rules.

Thalenchar
25-07-2010, 21:50
Perhaps you should read page 135 of the rulebook again and look at the term "Grand Army" ;).

Greetings
Eta

Yes, but making mocking comments is so much more fun ;):rolleyes:

TheKingInYellow
25-07-2010, 22:14
Yeah really wasn't questioning the composition, just sarcastically mocking the attitude.

Hooha
26-07-2010, 03:57
Perhaps you should read page 135 of the rulebook again and look at the term "Grand Army" ;).

Greetings
Eta

Thank you for the assist. :)

This forum is strange. My posts get deleted and I get nastygrams when I defend myself and my ideas against the undeserved venom spat at me by some of the egos around here, but guys like 'TheKingInYellow' are allowed to spam up my thread with their sarcastic personal attacks.

Guess I'd better go read the ToS and learn the loopholes before I get banned.:wtf:

TheKingInYellow
26-07-2010, 03:59
thank you for the assist. :)

this forum is strange. My posts get deleted and i get nastygrams when i defend myself and my ideas against the undeserved venom spat at me by some of the egos around here, but guys like 'thekinginyellow' are allowed to spam up my thread with their sarcastic personal attacks.

Guess i'd better go read to tos and learn the loopholes before i get banned.:wtf:

sense

of

humour

TheAmazingAntman
26-07-2010, 04:44
Enemy gets into your flank (i.e. out of line of sight of your furthest most unit). You roll scenario 4. You roll scenario 6. Enemy has an ethereal unit. Enemy has ambushers. Enemy has several Scouts, Vanguards, and Flyers. Enemy has tunnelers. Enemy has a ton of longbow men. If any of those situations arise, congratulations you are going to be in a world of hurt.

The thing you arenít considering is that hand guns have a range of 24 and your BS is essentially 3. Because of this most of the time you are going to be hitting on 5s (and possibly 6s if you are taking a charge). If you are in short range, that also means you are in charge range, once one of your units takes a charge, you may as well concede the game. Your leadership isnít great (remember only one of those Lords can be a general) and (most importantly) once a unit gets behind your lines, you canít effectively turn your gun line to face that threat as your entire army is move-or-shoot.

Youíll likely get about two turns of shooting in before units are in combat with you (Probably only one if you donít get the first turn). I averaged that youíll be doing about 54 wounds on the first turn of shooting (before saves, much less if your opponent effectively uses cover) against T3 targets if every unit is firing at full strength. While that is a nice amount, most 3,000 point armies will be able to take that punch without completely folding (especially armies that have fair amounts of highly armored troops and/or ward saves). After that, you are at your opponentís mercy.

Long story short, I would love to see this list across the table from me.

Hooha
26-07-2010, 05:37
Enemy gets into your flank (i.e. out of line of sight of your furthest most unit). You roll scenario 4. You roll scenario 6. Enemy has an ethereal unit. Enemy has ambushers. Enemy has several Scouts, Vanguards, and Flyers. Enemy has tunnelers. Enemy has a ton of longbow men. If any of those situations arise, congratulations you are going to be in a world of hurt.

The thing you arenít considering is that hand guns have a range of 24 and your BS is essentially 3. Because of this most of the time you are going to be hitting on 5s (and possibly 6s if you are taking a charge). If you are in short range, that also means you are in charge range, once one of your units takes a charge, you may as well concede the game. Your leadership isnít great (remember only one of those Lords can be a general) and (most importantly) once a unit gets behind your lines, you canít effectively turn your gun line to face that threat as your entire army is move-or-shoot.

Youíll likely get about two turns of shooting in before units are in combat with you (Probably only one if you donít get the first turn). I averaged that youíll be doing about 54 wounds on the first turn of shooting (before saves, much less if your opponent effectively uses cover) against T3 targets if every unit is firing at full strength. While that is a nice amount, most 3,000 point armies will be able to take that punch without completely folding (especially armies that have fair amounts of highly armored troops and/or ward saves). After that, you are at your opponentís mercy.

Long story short, I would love to see this list across the table from me.

I'm well aware of the range on every weapon and spell at the army's disposal, and I'm perfectly capable of calculating probable modifiers on BS 4, thank you. Almost everything you brought up has already been adressed earlier in the thread, with the exception of being outranged (longbowmen, in your example) or ambushed.

Against an opponent trying to outrange me, the vanguard move will easily allow me to close the gap, and I'll either only take one decent volley if I go second, or none if I go first. Honestly, it's not something I'm even worried about with this list.

Ambushing presents more of a problem, since light cavalry doesn't seem to be able to turn around in the saddle and fire to the rear anymore. However, if a noteworthy amount of the opposing force is ambushing, shredding the opposing side of the table enough to give my outriders room to advance and come about (16 inches, mind you, and all in one move) - thus bringing their weapons to bear against the ambushers - should not be out of the question. Of course, if the tactic is expected given deployment and lists, one could simply use ones' vanguard movement to turn 10 or 20 outriders around to guard the rear.

The vast majority of my army is going to get to fire twice, and a goodly portion, if not most, will get a third volley off as well (Even if it's a stand and shoot reaction). Some will even see 4th and 5th rounds of shooting.

Long story short, I'd love to see the list of a person who is sure I'll only get one round of shooting, then 'be at the mercy of my opponent' across the table from me.

Citadel97501
27-07-2010, 20:54
Well I haven't played against a list similar to yours, but I can see it crumbling badly if facing Beast-Men with that special character, I think his name is, Slug Tongue. He also has a special rule that happens before the game starts, if I remember correctly it affects every unit in LOS, with 1d6 hits or something like that.

Our one beast-men player only fielded him once, due to killing a 7th edition army before they got to play. . .

Damocles8
27-07-2010, 21:00
I'd think about dropping the Hochland Long Rifles from the Outriders, they come with Repeaters and you could add standards to your handgunners.....

Vrigor
27-07-2010, 22:08
I'd think about dropping the Hochland Long Rifles from the Outriders, they come with Repeaters and you could add standards to your handgunners.....

droping the hochlands from the outriders kind of ruins the whole point of his army. to kill the leaders of the enemy army before they even get started. And without armour + ward + regen that we had last edition its a lot easier to pop off those characters. although there are still exceptions, like 2+ rerollable armour + ward.

Hooha
27-07-2010, 23:11
droping the hochlands from the outriders kind of ruins the whole point of his army. to kill the leaders of the enemy army before they even get started. And without armour + ward + regen that we had last edition its a lot easier to pop off those characters. although there are still exceptions, like 2+ rerollable armour + ward.

But I suppose it's not a terrible place to free up some points, if you need to. Each dropped Hochland actually gets you two more shots, nets you some points, and make losing that unit of Outriders hurt that much less. I'd say it depends on your local metagame; if you're facing a lot of Elves, O&G, TK, VC, Empire, and to a lesser extent Skaven and Beastmen, Hochlands are worth their weight in gold. They don't tend to be so effective against some WoC comps, some Dwarf comps, DoC, Brettonia, or Ogre kingdoms.

That said, most of the comps your hochlands lose their punch against are ones the rest of the list should punish pretty hard (Dwarves, Brettonia, Ogre Kingdoms). So I think having the huge collection of hochlands adds an important bit of strategic diversity. I think, Damocles8, that if I decide the list needs a BSB and a sprinkling of standard bearers - which seems entirely likely - that dropping an Arch Lector is the most logical choice. My anti magic is already pushing 'over the top' status because of the metagame I designed the list to operate in, and that's really all he's there for. Hammer of Sigmar is just icing.

Damocles8
28-07-2010, 01:06
I tend to find the Hochlands to be slightly too expensive for their use (never seem to work well for me :(), don't know how you feel about merging one or two of your handgunners into one big unit (more stand and shoot vs. a charge), but that could also save some points