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Mandragola
20-07-2010, 18:56
Hi all

Inspired by the thread about wizards on the front rank, I'm a bit worried about other characters fighting. The thing is, while of course a wizard is dead meat in a fight, he doesn't want to be in combat anyway, and will spend a lot of time staying away from it. A combat character intends, in theory at least, to go and beat people up.

The step up rule stuffs characters I think. Most importantly, they can't keep themselves from being hit. That's bad enough but in addition, where it's often pointless hitting rank and file guys because their friends will step up, the same does not apply to characters. There's every reason to try and kill a melee character before he attacks and doing so will reduce the attacks you take. Then of course the character might be the general, and even if he isn't then killing him will often lower the unit's LD.

So, where in 7th it generally made sense to hit R+F guys to get combat resolution (assuming characters are harder to wound, which is usually the case), in 8th you might be better off hitting characters to keep yourself from losing CR to the casualties they will inflict. A unit of something like high elf sword masters has every reason, and certainly the ability, to take down enemy characters before they swing, and a unit horde of marauders with great weps and mark of khorne won't let a character attack twice.

Combat characters also seem inefficient compared to ordinary R+F troops. If a captain gives me 3 S4 attacks, and 3 halberdiers in horde formation do the same thing for the frontage, what's the point in the captain? In general, R+F troops lay down way more attacks than before, so the advantage of having characters is dissipated.

Anyway those are my thoughts. I don't see any point in taking combat characters right now. I can see myself taking a cheap general for the LD boost and having him skulk around with some skirmishers or fast cav. Combat just seems to be a bad plan.

Malorian
20-07-2010, 19:00
Combat characters will always allow you more damage on a smaller frontage.

In 8th you just have to make sure they can take a punch as well.

Skyros
20-07-2010, 19:34
Stepping up and fighting in multiple ranks has greatly reduced the utility of combat characters - or at least the cheaper ones like empire captains.

Before, your whole front rank might be wiped out, but the character could still fight back. People would rarely target your character because it was much easier to kill the RNF and prevent them from getting attacks back.

In 8th, the RNF (if sufficiently numerous) get attacks back no matter what, whereas if a fighty character gets taken out before he swings (entirely possible if he is able to be attacked by 6-9 guys) his attacks are gone.

You could always try putting them on the flank, or only taking fighty characters with high I. Some characters are capable of smashing through tons of enemy RnF troopers and so still definitely have a use. I'm not sure empire captains are one of those characters.

salamander
20-07-2010, 19:58
Keep him on the flank and make sure you line your chargers up correctly to limit the number of enemies in base contact. And as Malorian said kit them out so they can take a few knocks.

ColShaw
20-07-2010, 20:17
Orc Warboss with Armor of Gork, in Night Gobbos with Nets = effective T7 5 out of 6 turns, T6 the rest of the time. Let the enemy hit him instead of rank and file; they'll lose combat every time, need 6s to wound him even with S5 troops, and he'll still survive.

Malorian
20-07-2010, 20:47
Orc Warboss with Armor of Gork, in Night Gobbos with Nets = effective T7 5 out of 6 turns, T6 the rest of the time. Let the enemy hit him instead of rank and file; they'll lose combat every time, need 6s to wound him even with S5 troops, and he'll still survive.

Hey ColShaw, I know we have both been big into doing this in 7th, but are you still planning to do this in 8th?

The problem I have with it is that the models can't be in the unit unless they are the same size so orcs in night goblin units are stuck on the edges, and this has two big problems:

1. In horde armies you are tight for space as it is, and the new 1 inch apart rule doesn't help either. If you make the units even wider by having a character on the outside you just make the problem worse.

2. Since you are on the outside units can hit you such that they don't have to contact your character (HPA for example) leaving him completely useless.


For these reasons I'm no longer seeing this as the solid tactic that is was in 7th except for goblin characters.

Vsurma
20-07-2010, 21:14
For numb 2, "make way" rule on p100 states he can swap places with a rnf trooper to get into the mix.

Hero's no longer stand and watch.

Glen_Savet
20-07-2010, 21:19
Unless he can't "fit" in the middle of the unit Vsurma. He will still have to be on an edge.

Jericho
20-07-2010, 21:20
Can't do that if you're on a non-compatible base size...

Ninja'ed twice today! Ugh!

ColShaw
20-07-2010, 21:24
Sigh... that makes me sad. I think I'll probably still do it, though it may get me in trouble on occasion. CaveBoss just loves his little friends too much to leave them...

Mandragola
21-07-2010, 09:24
Fair enough. You can make a tough character, if you want to pay for it, but is he worth the cost? For the price of that orc guy and his friends, how many black orks could you have?

That is at least a good bunker general, which is fair enough. Everyone needs a general. It's fighty characters in units that seem to have suffered worst.

L1qw1d
21-07-2010, 13:58
I am trying to find a way to make more "Effective" characters for lower points. The way things stand right now, it's doable. Something with a twist on the attack (ESPECIALLY canceling Armour Saves!) but better armour seems to be the way to go. Mine are in the Unit when I NEED them to be, but rarely if I don't. I think you have to work more concertedly with your Infantry (or Cav if mounted) in 8th to unit lead more than anything else. I see NAMED Characters at a HUGE disadvantage in 8th with point bloat being so great for minimal boosts (Eg: Malus' Immunity to Stupidity for CoK is still NIFTY- but not one of the bigger rolls in the game anymore). Since Battles are planned to be longer, I was thinking of altering my tactics so that he stays close to a unit and joins toward the middle of a battle for the boost- you can Move and then make your Ld roll to get to the front with impunity, it looks like.

Sandals
21-07-2010, 14:34
i can't really not take fighty characters, i play ogres... ;)

problem i have is whether to tool them up for maximum killy death, or to take defensive items and try and keep them alive. still tyring to take a balance at the moment, but we'll see how that goes

ColShaw
21-07-2010, 15:14
Fair enough. You can make a tough character, if you want to pay for it, but is he worth the cost? For the price of that orc guy and his friends, how many black orks could you have?

That is at least a good bunker general, which is fair enough. Everyone needs a general. It's fighty characters in units that seem to have suffered worst.

He's got 6 WS6 S7 attacks; that's pretty fighty.

Cost for a Savage Orc Warboss, Armor of Gork, Great Weapon, Kickin' Boots, Collar of Zorga is ~216 points.

A 35-strong Night Gobbo unit, with spears and nets, and full command group, for him to hide in is 195 points. So it's a little over 400 for the lot, which is really not bad for what they're capable of, and the resilience of all the extra little bodies.

I think it's very possible to have fighty characters this edition, you just can't afford to go all-offense on them. I'd be surprised to see many of the 75+ point magic weapons out there nowadays.

Barry "the blade"
21-07-2010, 20:34
I havent gotten a game of 8th in yet, but going into it I plan to kit my heros out as balanced between survivable, and hitty as I can. Opponents directing attacks against them will be less efficient at generating CR, and at the same time I hope my hero can add 2-3 points as well. I won't be surprised when they die, though hopefully they will play their part first.