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Eulogy2
21-07-2010, 18:33
Hi guys, I use to cruise these forums a lot a while ago, but kinda fell away from it for a bit. Now that 8th edition is out I want to get back into it again. In 7th I found my lizardmen to be a fairly dominant army, I had little issue winning games and local tournies but I watched a game in 8th and it seems lizardmen got hit hard by the new rules. It may be because it was against chaos warriors, but it seemed the saurus warriors died in droves and had fewer attacks now with the spears. And the saurus calvary were all but useless even when they charged.

Did LM get hit by the new edition stick or is it not that bad? Seems as though chaos warriors recieved a boost with the Init order fighting so maybe it made it seem more lop sided.

mdauben
21-07-2010, 18:42
I'm still getting a feel for the new rules, but I think the Saurus Cav were the only really big losers in the LM under the new rules. The game is quite a bit different under 8th ed, so the same lists and tactics that worked under 7th may not work as well (or at all) under 8th, but I think given that the LM came out no worse than anyone else did, and better than some.

YMMV, of course.

Bac5665
21-07-2010, 18:43
Saurus are big losers in that they go from one of the top 2 core units in the game to pretty "meh." But salamanders look to be incredible.

Kugruk
21-07-2010, 18:44
Hi guys, I use to cruise these forums a lot a while ago, but kinda fell away from it for a bit. Now that 8th edition is out I want to get back into it again. In 7th I found my lizardmen to be a fairly dominant army, I had little issue winning games and local tournies but I watched a game in 8th and it seems lizardmen got hit hard by the new rules. It may be because it was against chaos warriors, but it seemed the saurus warriors died in droves and had fewer attacks now with the spears. And the saurus calvary were all but useless even when they charged.

Did LM get hit by the new edition stick or is it not that bad? Seems as though chaos warriors recieved a boost with the Init order fighting so maybe it made it seem more lop sided.

We didn't really get nerfed as an army as a whole. Saurus are no longer able to take advantage of their 2 attacks while using spears behind the first rank, which sucks hard.

It's not so much as we got nerfed, but every other army benefited much more from the new rules than we did. Only thing we REALLY have going for us is the new magic phase and lores.

Kugruk
21-07-2010, 18:44
Saurus are big losers in that they go from one of the top 2 core units in the game to pretty "meh." But salamanders look to be incredible.

Oh yeah, salamanders are now ridiculously good

GodlessM
21-07-2010, 18:49
Lizardmen are about the same I reckon. Slann and Salamanders got better, Saurus are the same, Skins got worse.

Eulogy2
21-07-2010, 18:55
What made the salamanders so much better?

The new spells look pretty amazing.

GodlessM
21-07-2010, 18:57
What made the salamanders so much better?

The new spells look pretty amazing.

Not having to roll for partials, and the new monsters and handlers rules is handy enough.

Heimagoblin
21-07-2010, 18:57
Stegs are better, salamanders are much better, slann are much better, sarus are still good troups and templeguard are still good and chamolean skinks are imo the best war machine hunters in the game. Thats all you need to make a tier 1 list. As for the rest, not much is entirely useless. This means a lizzard lizard can be made to fit into any tier. Perfect for casual and competative gamers alike.

KillbotFactory
21-07-2010, 18:59
Lizardmen are still very competitive, it just requires playing a different style of army than in 7th edition. Slann still dominate the magic phase and skinks are still very good for shooting(make sure you take javelins now).

If your army consisted of saurus and saurus cav then I agree with everyone else, you may need to start from scratch because those are the 2 biggest losers in the lizardmen army from 7th to 8th but otherwise it is still a very good army.

GodlessM
21-07-2010, 18:59
I would reckon Stegs aren't much better. The Engine still has a place, but otherwise a Steg charges in and whereas it gets extra attacks, it gets bogged down and counter-charged in the infantry. Then again, this will depend on the opponent, so I suppose touch-and-go is a better review.

Bac5665
21-07-2010, 19:10
I actually the think the Engine is about done now. In 8E, I can't hide the Engine anywhere, so cannons, boltthrowers, stonethrowers and many, many other warmachines are much, much more able to snipe it turn 1. Combine that with wanting to have some mercy against undead, and I don't really think that it makes much sense anymore.

On the otherhand, regular stegs always got stuck in combat forever, at least now they'll be able to do damage past turn 1. At least that's how I see it.

KillbotFactory
21-07-2010, 19:11
Getting the stomp attacks at S6 makes the Stegs way better against infantry when they are by design an anvil unit. Unless it is infantry with high strength I would charge a steg into infantry any day.

Kudzu
21-07-2010, 20:09
Spear Saurus took a hit (but are still useful), as did COC (who went from "not that great but fun" to "at least they look good sitting on my shelf"). EOTG is not worth taking now. I now take an Ancient Steg instead of an engine to dump a boatload of poison shots and support charge (and to soak up cannon fire for a turn or two). The jury is still out on Teradons, but I think Chameleon Skinks will be replacing them in my lists . Skink skirmishers are rather meh, but I still take a unit of 11 just in case (manged to take 5 wounds off a giant that failed it's charge then finished it off the next turn, and killed off a minotaur unit later in that same game--not bad for 77 points).
Carnosaur took it in the teeth, so now it's go Slann or go home in anything over 2k.

Slann got better with the new lores (life is freaking amazing) as did Sallies (yay no partials!). Skrox units got a huge buff (the loss of great reach in exchange for supporting attacks means Krox cannot be targeted in combat as long as you have skinks in the front lines, 22 + 2 with command is a very good investment, especially with life's +4 toughness spell cast on them.)

Overall, still an extremely solid (quite possibly top tier) army but it will take a lot of list jiggling from 7th ed to find the sweet spot.

Kugruk
21-07-2010, 20:11
Carnosaur took it in the teeth, so now it's go Slann or go home in anything


Fixed for you

Sparowl
21-07-2010, 20:21
Strangely, I feel saurus got better. I rarely got the charge off anyways, so striking last was a forgone conclusion against anythng not armed with great weapons in the second round of combat. By comparison, we get to strike first against them now. And against every else, who woudo've done wounds to our front rank and reduced attacks, the step forward rule means that saurus get a good number of attacks back. I've been winning more combats now then I ever did in 7th thanks to stepping up.

Kugruk
21-07-2010, 20:38
Strangely, I feel saurus got better. I rarely got the charge off anyways, so striking last was a forgone conclusion against anythng not armed with great weapons in the second round of combat. By comparison, we get to strike first against them now. And against every else, who woudo've done wounds to our front rank and reduced attacks, the step forward rule means that saurus get a good number of attacks back. I've been winning more combats now then I ever did in 7th thanks to stepping up.

I agree with you actually. I don't see Saurus as being any worse than they are. I usually run bigger blocks anyway, so its going to take a few rounds to do enough wounds that i start to lose attacking models. And we still net the same number of attacks we used to last edition (with spears, end up with more attacks now with HW/S, but i think 6+ saves are anecdotal at best).

Dokushin
21-07-2010, 20:40
Coming from a guy who's played a good bit of 8th and a boatload of 7th as LM, I think we've gained more than we lost. Just about every unit we have improved, even relative to the improvements of everyone else.

Skink skirmishers are better b/c they can march and shoot, and because jav/shield gets 6+ ward for taking charges (don't forget I4, too).

Ranked skinks get the 6+ ward and steadfast, and still I4.

Skinks+Krox are much better because you can't target the Krox and the huge amount of space taken up ensures steadfast while the Krox take it out.

Saurus are much better because, while our lead in number of attacks won't be as great, the fact that we take charges and are I1 will no longer cost us 2 attacks per wound -- we always get all of our 4-per-face attacks.

Stegs don't autobreak stuff but became perfect tarpits and combat support b/c of Stubborn on the General's leadership and an extra d6 impact hits at the end of combat. (Also don't miss that we can stand and shoot with the giant blowpipes.)

Kroxigor fielded alone can get six attacks a face with a rank and break ranks (although I'd put them in Skink blocks for shooting wounds and steadfast).

Terradon Riders are fast cavalry proper, get the -1 for being skirmishers, and can make a free move before the game starts -- setting up a rock drop or a feigned flight -- as well as a stomp attack per, bringing them close to their 6e fightiness.

Temple Guard I think actually slipped a bit with being forced to use Halberds, which are great with supporting attacks -- but we lose two b/c of the fat frog *grin*. Still ace, though.

Chameleon Skinks have become amazing with the new "anywhere from 12 inches out" deployment and march and shoot blowpipes on BS4, especially with the removal of poison immunity on warmachines and the general ability to wound on 6s, as well as the removal of slots (so a couple of cheap Chameleon units don't eat up your slot allowance).

Salamanders are ridiculous, easily hitting 20-30 models a shot with a nice wide confidence margin. Removal of slots means it's a little easier to split them up (although spam limit will choke you here) and they can now march and shoot, meaning you can with just a little luck be dropping the fat end of the flame template on blocks turn one first move.

Razordons are in a bad spot, as they didn't get anything from the new rules (explicitly disallowed from marching and shooting) and were debatable with Salamanders even before Salamanders got the huge march-and-shoot no-partials boost, so I'd leave them at home.

Slann are now pretty much undeniably the best casters in the game, and the BRB lores are extremely powerful (I believe I called this one when the LM book came out *grin*).

Skink priests now have decent spells to try with a good chance at success, and this goes double for the Engine -- if you can neutralize Cannon and preferably Stone Throwers it will (help) dominate magic with another good dice dump.

Scar-Vets and Oldbloods both got a lot better with access to new magic trinkets, including heavy armor you can wear while mounted. Mounted doesn't work in units as well, but the 1+ armor save cap is easy enough to reach anyway. Carnosaurs get d6 S7 hits at the end of combat.

Skink chief warspear ancient isn't quite as good with loss of autobreak but will still win combat handily.

What else? Oh, Cold One Riders suck, don't bring them (they do get to re-roll stupidity from the BSB now, though), and Jungle Swarms are a waste of points.

Basically, every single good thing we have got better -- and in cases where a unit is no longer quite as good at something (steg autobreak) it's gotten much, much better at something else (steg tarpit). I was worried, myself, until I started playing games; now I'm starting to worry about our next FAQ *grin*.

Bac5665
21-07-2010, 20:46
Dokushin, you know that Saurus in the second rank only get 1 attack, right? Your post made it sound like you think they still get 4 per face. They don't unless their 3 deep, which is expensive and hard to maintain with shooting getting the boost it did.

RunepriestRidcully
21-07-2010, 21:24
Tomorrow I will have my first game of 8th, 2000pts against beastman, here is my list:
Slann with State of Consciousness and Cupped Hands of the Old ones (Lore of life)
Saurus Oldblood with Light Armour, Dragonbane helm and halberd
a unit of 40 saurus warriors with full command
5 units of 10 skinks
a unit of 21 temple guard with full command, war banner and Venom of the firefly frog for the Guardian
a unit of 4 Terradons
and a salamander hunting pack of 2 salamanders and 8 skink Handlers.
Will post my results in this thread tomorrow, though I am struggling to find all those skink sprues I put away somewhere after I got given a box too many a few years back by my gran, never thought I would need that many skinks, so I could perhaps drop some skinks to fit some kroxigor in, have not used them much since the current army book was released, it may be nice to try the again.

Orcboy_Phil
21-07-2010, 21:31
Where is the march and shoot on blowpipes? I've heard of this but I haven't found reference to it yet.

Kudzu
21-07-2010, 21:37
Where is the march and shoot on blowpipes? I've heard of this but I haven't found reference to it yet.

Skirmisher rules, p77 in the brick.

Orcboy_Phil
21-07-2010, 21:57
Skirmisher rules, p77 in the brick.

Thanks, I thought it was an additional rule in the Errata and I've been looking for it for ages.

Dokushin
21-07-2010, 22:59
Dokushin, you know that Saurus in the second rank only get 1 attack, right? Your post made it sound like you think they still get 4 per face. They don't unless their 3 deep, which is expensive and hard to maintain with shooting getting the boost it did.

Yes, I'm aware, but thanks for pointing it out in case anyone wasn't aware what I was talking about.

I always run Saurus at least four deep; it's very rare now for me to bring less than 2 6x4 spear saurus blocks, although I've been experimenting with 5x5 HW blocks.

It's expensive-ish (300 pts) but the Saurus will do extremely well in combat and can survive quite a few with reasonable numbers. In my experience so far in 8th, the battles are so killy that you wind up in the closing turns with a lot of mostly-dead units, and a unit of Saurus that started at 24 will still be at 12-16 and able to mop up the remains.

RunepriestRidcully
22-07-2010, 20:50
The age of the slann is over, the age of the Oldblood and Skink priests, as begone. I played 2 games, the first one with the list I posted earlier I lost everything, the other guy still had about 1900pts left, (he had a spell that summoned another giant size model) it was not fun, the slann failed, when I needed him to disspell, he failed, and his casting was not that impressive.
The second game, at 1500pts against ogres was better, the skink priest, whilst miscasting whilst he cast chained lightening, lost his magic level, but the lightning killed 4 ogres over three units and took a few wounds off the others, and the old blood survived 2 rounds of a challenge against an ogre tyrant, and both skink skirmisher units when charged, caused wounds in combat on ogres, one unit actually killed an orge in combat! I am now thinking of units of Skinks with Kroxigor...
Skinks and oldbloods are the way forward!

WarmbloodedLizard
22-07-2010, 20:58
Skinks and oldbloods are the way forward!

you're definitely playing a different kind of lizardmen than anyone else on this forum :D

RunepriestRidcully
22-07-2010, 21:19
Call me mad if you want, but I honestly believe that now, an Old blood backed by a Skink Suport team (Level 2 priests and the occaisional chief) is better then a Slann, call me a heretic, but slann are too many eggs in one frog shaped basket, a single miscast will be enough to drastically reduce the slanns magic, or even kill him, when a skink priest suffers it, meh, I have 2 others to keep the pressure up. That is close to the reason I think 30 is a good number for Saurus in this edition, not to much in unit, yet not too little to be of no use.

madden
22-07-2010, 21:30
Plus on the off chance that the slaan flees/brakes in combat he's dead if he is your battle standard, I don't use a slaan as I prefer a couple of preists and Killy characters instead. Mostly play 2k pts in my area and slaan is a lot of points in one place one failed ward and he's eating cannon balls etc.

Kugruk
22-07-2010, 21:42
a single miscast will be enough to drastically reduce the slanns magic, or even kill him,

Man, if only there was like...a magic item we could take that would let us give our miscasts to enemy mages! That would be super neat! Or, what if there was a spell in one of the best lores available that would let us ignore miscasts? Well, I guess we can't win them all...






...oh wait.

Kugruk
22-07-2010, 21:46
Plus on the off chance that the slaan flees/brakes in combat he's dead if he is your battle standard,

Man, it also sucks that Slann HAVE to be the standard bearer, doesnt it? :(


one failed ward and he's eating cannon balls etc.

Man, they should give us an enchanted item that would boost his ward save to 2+ against ranged attacks! Or maybe if there was some special rule that would let a temple guard die instead of the slann on a roll of 2+.

Kudzu
22-07-2010, 21:49
Man, if only there was like...a magic item we could take that would let us give our miscasts to enemy mages! That would be super neat! Or, what if there was a spell in one of the best lores available that would let us ignore miscasts? Well, I guess we can't win them all...

You know what would make that lore great? If it had amazing unit buffs and a perfect horde/warmachine killing spell in it... too bad really. And it's also sad that there's no cheap banner we can put on our bsb/general that would boost him and his bodyguards to stubborn, coldblooded, rerollable leadership 10.

Kugruk
22-07-2010, 21:50
You know what would make that lore great? If it had amazing unit buffs and a perfect horde/warmachine killing spell in it... too bad really.

Omg thats an amazing idea! you should pitch that to GW, i'm sure they will love it!

Kugruk
22-07-2010, 22:01
You know what would make that lore great? If it had amazing unit buffs and a perfect horde/warmachine killing spell in it... too bad really. And it's also sad that there's no cheap banner we can put on our bsb/general that would boost him and his bodyguards to stubborn, coldblooded, rerollable leadership 10.

and immune to psychology

Kudzu
22-07-2010, 22:13
Omg thats an amazing idea! you should pitch that to GW, i'm sure they will love it!

I think I will, but I'm really going to take it over the top-- every time you successfully cast a spell you can heal a wound... and add another spell that can bring back models from the dead.

I mean, if you're going to do something go all out.

Kugruk
22-07-2010, 22:46
I think I will, but I'm really going to take it over the top-- every time you successfully cast a spell you can heal a wound... and add another spell that can bring back models from the dead.

I mean, if you're going to do something go all out.

Now you're just being ridiculous

ewar
23-07-2010, 00:35
Haha, made me smile at least :)

As for Slann - to Runepreistridcully - you should definitely be taking Rumination on him.

Now - will admit that I am yet to play a game of 8th (first one in a weeks time) but adding PD was a winner in 7th and it has only got stronger in 8th.

And like the chaps above point out... Cupped Hands is a pretty handy item - don't forget the FAQ lets us roll to see what the miscast does before we decide whether it's worth passing on!

RunepriestRidcully
23-07-2010, 09:30
I Know Cupped Hands of the old ones is good, and looking at the Lore of life, I am thinking of giving the slann another go, the problem is, even with Temple Guard, because the second rank now fights, well he counts as in combat, can't cast out of magic, and with the stupidly long charge ranges it is easy to get a slann in combat, and for disciplines I usually take Higher state of Consciousness on the slann, but during 7th most of my games were 1000-1500pts, so I am inexperienced using slann, so any slann care advice will be welcome.

Sparowl
23-07-2010, 09:47
I Know Cupped Hands of the old ones is good, and looking at the Lore of life, I am thinking of giving the slann another go, the problem is, even with Temple Guard, because the second rank now fights, well he counts as in combat, can't cast out of magic, and with the stupidly long charge ranges it is easy to get a slann in combat, and for disciplines I usually take Higher state of Consciousness on the slann, but during 7th most of my games were 1000-1500pts, so I am inexperienced using slann, so any slann care advice will be welcome.

A.) Even though he's in combat, he's not in base, so no one is swinging at him.

B.) Most of Life lore isn't about casting damage out. In fact, only two spells, Awakening of the Wood and Dweller Below. On the other hand, 5 augments mean that he's going to be casting just fine even if enemy were basing him. Make your Temple Guard T8 and have a 4+ regen. Or give them a shield that does 2d6 S4 hits to the unit in base with them, and you'll quickly be free of combat. And every spell you throw heals your characters or any multiple wound models nearby. I always keep a Stegadon nearby, because everyone shoots it, then I can heal it with the lore attribute.

How you play your slann largely depends on how you want to play him. I use him as a augmenter, making my good, elite units become combat monsters, and resurrecting the models that fall. Also, as said above, healing my stegs.

Some people use them as snipers, using Death. Some people use them as augmenters in another way with Light.

slasher
23-07-2010, 12:11
talking of the law of light, how does the 5+ scaly skin save work with Saurus who already have a scaly skin save of 5+? does a) do nothing or b) make it 3+ scally skin save?

Kugruk
23-07-2010, 16:00
talking of the law of light, how does the 5+ scaly skin save work with Saurus who already have a scaly skin save of 5+? does a) do nothing or b) make it 3+ scally skin save?

does nothing. They already have a 5+ scaly skin save

slasher
23-07-2010, 16:07
cheers thought so, but hay I'd have been kicking my self if it did work :p

Kudzu
23-07-2010, 19:19
I Know Cupped Hands of the old ones is good, and looking at the Lore of life, I am thinking of giving the slann another go, the problem is, even with Temple Guard, because the second rank now fights, well he counts as in combat, can't cast out of magic, and with the stupidly long charge ranges it is easy to get a slann in combat, and for disciplines I usually take Higher state of Consciousness on the slann, but during 7th most of my games were 1000-1500pts, so I am inexperienced using slann, so any slann care advice will be welcome.

I don't really play at anything smaller than 2250 (now 2500) but...

Take 16 temple guard, full command, warbanner. Add a BSB Slann using lore of life with Rumination (should ALWAYS be your first choice for disciplines.) and Mystery for your disciplines (and if you find yourself with 50 extra points or facing a lot of nasty lvl 4 casters toss on Becalming as well). Gear wise; Cupped Hands (which is an offensive weapon when using lore of life) and the Standard of Discipline (which makes your unit stubborn, coldblooded, re-rollable leadership 10).

Throne of Vines should always be up, even if you IF it the effects go through before the miscast so you can disregard it on a 2+. You get to roll the results of miscasts before you decide what to do with it, so I try to save cupped hands for when I roll a 2-4 then hand it off for a friendly str 10 pie-plate of nasty and a 50% of removing an enemy wizard from the game.

Keep regen on your TG, and if they start to dip down in numbers regrow them. The only real threats you need to worry about are the insta-kill stat test spells, so make sure any wizard that rolls one dies early and messy.

RunepriestRidcully
23-07-2010, 20:21
What size is best for Temple Guard, I am not sue wherever or not 16 would be too little, I usually take 10, but if 16 is the besy I can retire the plastic ones I bought, (and never really used much, I prefere the old metal ones) and scour ebay for 5 of the metal ones.
Also, does anyone take higher state of consciousness, I always thought being ethereal was good, but no one else seems to take it.

Kudzu
23-07-2010, 20:34
What size is best for Temple Guard, I am not sue wherever or not 16 would be too little, I usually take 10, but if 16 is the besy I can retire the plastic ones I bought, (and never really used much, I prefere the old metal ones) and scour ebay for 5 of the metal ones.
Also, does anyone take higher state of consciousness, I always thought being ethereal was good, but no one else seems to take it.

16 with Slann (and using lore of life, which is honestly the only lore you should be using if he's in a TG unit.). IMO it's the best point vs effectiveness set up.

Higher state is required if you run the Slann solo, but is wasted if he's tucked in TG. Those 50 points are better spent elsewhere.

CoolKidRoc
23-07-2010, 21:14
Does Harrowing Scrutiny do anything good for the Slann?

And what does BSB mean? (sorry, i'm a fantasy noob)

TheWave
23-07-2010, 22:42
BSB is battle standard bearer and I have never had harrowing be usefull. Its just not as good as his other options or other things

Sparowl
23-07-2010, 23:26
What size is best for Temple Guard, I am not sue wherever or not 16 would be too little, I usually take 10, but if 16 is the besy I can retire the plastic ones I bought, (and never really used much, I prefere the old metal ones) and scour ebay for 5 of the metal ones.
Also, does anyone take higher state of consciousness, I always thought being ethereal was good, but no one else seems to take it.

I run 20, full command. It ends up being 6 by 4 with a Slann in it.

Ethereal is good if you're on your own. If you're with TG, there's not a lot of point.

Agnar the Howler
23-07-2010, 23:36
I run 20, full command. It ends up being 6 by 4 with a Slann in it.

Ethereal is good if you're on your own. If you're with TG, there's not a lot of point.

If you're not worried about mundane attacks in combat, then you could also consider the Divine Plaque of Protection if you're running a lone Slann. It isn't full mundane protection, but you get a 2+ ward vs all normal and magical missiles, whereas with Ethereal you'd be ignoring the normal ones but getting anything magical coming right through. DPoP is also 20pts cheaper.

I'm not suggesting you ignore etheral completely, as it's great if you're facing few magical attacks, just in some situations you might prefer the plaque, however the plaque could be wasted if your enemy has no shooting ability, magical or otherwise.