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FarseerSinian
22-07-2010, 01:45
So I just finished Legion a while ago and something has been on my mind that's been kinda bothering me.The book's ending stated that the Alpha Legion joined the Traitor Legions(But not Chaos, at least to my knowledge) so that Horus would win and Chaos would burn it self out and die at the expense of the Human race as predicted by the Cabal. As the Emperor would of "technically" wanted. But the problem is that the Traitor's lost, Even WITH the Alpha Legion. So I figured something must of happened to change all of the prediction. Something un-foreseen. So started re-reading The Collected Visions book and found something in the final battle between Horus and the Emperor. During the fight, as the Emperor is gravely wounded and Horus gloats before finishing him off, a lone surviving Custodian appears. With a moment's hesitation he charges the Primarch, and is subsequently obliterated. Seeing his loyal bodyguard of two centuries or more, killed without honor or ceremony, is what caused the Emperor to see what Horus had truly become and gave him the strength to deliver the all-powerful psychic bolt that defeated Horus.So what I'm thinking is that this lone Custodian, by sacrificing himself, managed to change the coarse of history predicted by the Cabal. Making him one of the most important and un-recognized hero of the Heresy.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 01:50
xD That character that your spoiler text refers to used to be an Imperial Fist terminator, and before that, Olanius Pius, who was made a saint afterward.

And Legion didn't actually let us know who Alpharius and Omegon joined. Abnett intentionally left it ambiguous.

negZero
22-07-2010, 01:53
So I just finished Legion a while ago and something has been on my mind that's been kinda bothering me.The book's ending stated that the Alpha Legion joined the Traitor Legions(But not Chaos, at least to my knowledge) so that Horus would win and Chaos would burn it self out and die at the expense of the Human race as predicted by the Cabal. As the Emperor would of "technically" wanted. But the problem is that the Traitor's lost, Even WITH the Alpha Legion. So I figured something must of happened to change all of the prediction. Something un-foreseen. So started re-reading The Collected Visions book and found something in the final battle between Horus and the Emperor. During the fight, as the Emperor is gravely wounded and Horus gloats before finishing him off, a lone surviving Custodian appears. With a moment's hesitation he charges the Primarch, and is subsequently obliterated. Seeing his loyal bodyguard of two centuries or more, killed without honor or ceremony, is what caused the Emperor to see what Horus had truly become and gave him the strength to deliver the all-powerful psychic bolt that defeated Horus.So what I'm thinking is that this lone Custodian, by sacrificing himself, managed to change the coarse of history predicted by the Cabal. Making him one of the most important and un-recognized hero of the Heresy.

But you must remember that the Cabal predicted that Imperium would 10-20 thousand years in slow decay while forces of Chaos grew stronger. Which sound very much whats going on now, or basically Dan Abnett has left the door wide open.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 02:02
We must not automatically assign good guy status to the Cabal. They have no interest in humanity's rise to power. Their motivations can be just as much about stifling the power of humankind as they are about thwarting the endeavors of Chaos. Moreover, on the surface, Alpharius joined Horus and Horus lost. That leaves only one of three possibilities:

1) The Alpha Legion joined Horus and had little actual effect on the outcome of the war.
2) The Alpha Legion joined Horus and crippled his rebellion from within somehow.
3) The Alpha Legion joined Horus, did proper damage, and the loyalists won regardless.

In any case, they accomplished only part of what the Cabal wanted (joining Horus). The question is whether that semi-failure was intentional on the part of the twins.

Unless of course that was what the Cabal wanted all along. DUN-DUN-DUNNNNN.

FarseerSinian
22-07-2010, 02:37
I'm only theorizing this. But it would make an interesting side story. One Custodian, a supreme master of war, but utterly dwarfed by the grand scale of the conflict and it combatants: the Primarchs. Yet somehow him merely surviving the Vengeful Spirit, and making it to the Emperor, he changed the coarse of history. Sounds like an interesting story to me. Though that's my opinion.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 03:15
You're absolutely right, as far as I'm concerned, if in fact all of your previous theorizing is in the ballpark.

But then again, I'd imagine conflicts are often defined or massively altered by timely events.

Weaver
22-07-2010, 03:59
It definitely was an interesting storey. An incredibly moving one, and inspiring. When it was a guardsman. A mere mortal, drawn from the fields of battle into the bowels of the closest physical thing to hell, seeing his Saviour lying crippled and broken, and standing before the full wrath of an Angry God (four, really). And he holds his ground. He gets mercilessly slaughtered for it, but he holds his ground. Because it is his duty. Not because he thinks he stands any chance of surviving. Not because he has some greater goal in mind. Nothing here is 'just as planned' or part of some greater machination. This humble, faithful guardsman stands his ground because he believes, and because it is his duty. That is epic. It is one of the most beautiful and tragic moments in the storey of this universe, no matter how you look at it. That is the stuff 40k is made of.

But a demi-deity, standing between deities? Slightly less engaging in my books. A lot less engaging. Still not bad though. But I dream of the 'official' reinstatement of St. Ollanius Pius.

My 40k Canon still maintains Ollanius Pius as the hero and the martyr of that day :)

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 04:02
I'm with you, Weaver. Well put.

Dead.Blue.Clown
22-07-2010, 06:30
My 40k Canon still maintains Ollanius Pius as the hero and the martyr of that day :)

So does mine. It's something I plan to wield like a club when we get to the Horus Heresy meetings dealing with the Siege of Terra.

Ramius4
22-07-2010, 06:36
So does mine. It's something I plan to wield like a club when we get to the Horus Heresy meetings dealing with the Siege of Terra.

Hell yeah ADB;) I like where your head is at.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 06:42
I have a sneaking suspicion that ADB is garnering fanboy support for an eventual coup-de-tat against the GW licensing leadership.

If my conspiracy theory is accurate, count me in! To hell and back, sir. But not to Wisconsin. Never Wisconsin. Half of my extended family are in asylums there.

Iracundus
22-07-2010, 06:49
It definitely was an interesting storey. An incredibly moving one, and inspiring. When it was a guardsman. A mere mortal, drawn from the fields of battle into the bowels of the closest physical thing to hell, seeing his Saviour lying crippled and broken, and standing before the full wrath of an Angry God (four, really). And he holds his ground. He gets mercilessly slaughtered for it, but he holds his ground. Because it is his duty. Not because he thinks he stands any chance of surviving. Not because he has some greater goal in mind. Nothing here is 'just as planned' or part of some greater machination. This humble, faithful guardsman stands his ground because he believes, and because it is his duty. That is epic. It is one of the most beautiful and tragic moments in the storey of this universe, no matter how you look at it. That is the stuff 40k is made of.


This to a different extent is supposed to be also why Sanguinius's death is tragic. He stood for what he believed in, not because he thought he could win or survive. Attempts to portray Sanguinius actually inflicting some chink in Horus's armor or actually accomplishing some material gain against Horus misses this above point.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 06:55
Well said, Iracundus. We can thank Matt Ward, yet again.

Iuris
22-07-2010, 08:29
I can very much sympathize with the Ollanius Pius fans - I came to the hobby at a time when it was an Imperial fists terminator that got burned off, and having him suddenly become a custodian... feels wrong.

Anyway, since we are already discussing this event, does anyone feel that the key element to why THIS single death motivates the Emperor, when millions of others had already taken place is the fact that it's done purely psychically and in the Emperor's presence.

Previously, all the death and destruction by Horus was done far away. The Emperor only had reports and may well have considered Horus dominated and not willing. But then, he sees the monster kill a man with his pure soul power, directly, observably - and seeing EXACTLY how it's done, exactly how the power courses, exactly what the soul is like.

And that breaks his heart - the heart that held him back.

Brother of the Hydra
22-07-2010, 09:01
It definitely was an interesting storey. An incredibly moving one, and inspiring. When it was a guardsman. A mere mortal, drawn from the fields of battle into the bowels of the closest physical thing to hell, seeing his Saviour lying crippled and broken, and standing before the full wrath of an Angry God (four, really). And he holds his ground. He gets mercilessly slaughtered for it, but he holds his ground. Because it is his duty. Not because he thinks he stands any chance of surviving. Not because he has some greater goal in mind. Nothing here is 'just as planned' or part of some greater machination. This humble, faithful guardsman stands his ground because he believes, and because it is his duty. That is epic. It is one of the most beautiful and tragic moments in the storey of this universe, no matter how you look at it. That is the stuff 40k is made of.

But a demi-deity, standing between deities? Slightly less engaging in my books. A lot less engaging. Still not bad though. But I dream of the 'official' reinstatement of St. Ollanius Pius.

My 40k Canon still maintains Ollanius Pius as the hero and the martyr of that day :)

+1 to that man!! Could not have put it better myself.... And yes with ADB engaging in "aggressive negotiations" we could start to have the quality, started by ADB, that we deserve.

ADB, any chance you could keep us updated?

Iracundus
22-07-2010, 09:13
I can very much sympathize with the Ollanius Pius fans - I came to the hobby at a time when it was an Imperial fists terminator that got burned off, and having him suddenly become a custodian... feels wrong.

Anyway, since we are already discussing this event, does anyone feel that the key element to why THIS single death motivates the Emperor, when millions of others had already taken place is the fact that it's done purely psychically and in the Emperor's presence.

Previously, all the death and destruction by Horus was done far away. The Emperor only had reports and may well have considered Horus dominated and not willing. But then, he sees the monster kill a man with his pure soul power, directly, observably - and seeing EXACTLY how it's done, exactly how the power courses, exactly what the soul is like.

"When you kill one, it is a tragedy. When you kill a million, it is a statistic."

Aside from the above, Horus also does unnecessary sadistic overkill. If he had just done so cleanly and efficiently with no particular sadistic joy, then things might have been different. As it was, whoever the individual was, whether Ollanius Pius, IF terminator, or now Custodes, he obviously posed no significant threat and didn't need such overwhelming force to deal with.

Why this particular death? I think the Emperor was on the edge already after having seen the Chaos warped barge and Sanguinius's dead body. This death was the final straw that pushed the teetering Emperor over the edge.

Dragunov09
22-07-2010, 09:23
My 40k Canon still maintains Ollanius Pius as the hero and the martyr of that day :)

100% behind you on this one!! Extremely well put too!

D

Malice313
22-07-2010, 09:56
xD That character that your spoiler text refers to used to be an Imperial Fist terminator, and before that, Olanius Pius, who was made a saint afterward.

And Legion didn't actually let us know who Alpharius and Omegon joined. Abnett intentionally left it ambiguous.

It was actually a squad of Imperial Fist terminators who cut their way through walls and sealed doors to launch an unexpected counter attack on the Warmaster.

Before being place in the Golden Throne the Emperor ordered his armour to be melted down and pieces use to make badges for Marine Captains attached to Terminator units.

Further reading on this can be found on page 17 of the Compendium.

Olanius Pius is regarded as a saint and sometimes prayed to, though it doesn't seem like he was officially canonised Further reading of Olanius Pius page 44 of WD 109.


Who or what is ADB?

Gingerwerewolf
22-07-2010, 10:18
If we are going back that Far, I thought that it was the story that was written in one of the Realm of Chaos Books - Slaves to Darkness, (cant remember the page, at work without my copies) that had the original Black and White drawing of the Emperor V's Horus and was written by William King.

That was published in 1988 and before the Book of the Astronomican and described the Marine as a Blood Angel Terminator, who didn't hesitate, and got reduced to ash by Horus.

It was reprinted Picture and all, in WD 131, November 1990 and had the Advanced Space Crusade Scouts on the front, and that was where I first read it.

Dead.Blue.Clown
22-07-2010, 10:24
I have a sneaking suspicion that ADB is garnering fanboy support for an eventual coup-de-tat against the GW licensing leadership.

Naw. I'm a colossally argumentative, arrogant, wrath-driven tool who hates everything. A coup would only work if it was headed up by someone with people skills.


ADB, any chance you could keep us updated?

Sure thing.

I mean, I don't think all updates, changes and retcons are bad - there's a knee-jerk reaction from some corners that any change is unholy, and I think that's bad juju. Some changes work, some don't. It's an opinion thing.

But Olanius Pius is sacrosanct. And awesome. So I plan to argue the point until my arrows blot out the sun.

Dead.Blue.Clown
22-07-2010, 10:26
Who or what is ADB?

A colossally argumentative, arrogant, wrath-driven tool who hates everything.

Malice313
22-07-2010, 10:33
If we are going back that Far, I thought that it was the story that was written in one of the Realm of Chaos Books - Slaves to Darkness, (cant remember the page, at work without my copies) that had the original Black and White drawing of the Emperor V's Horus and was written by William King.

That was published in 1988 and before the Book of the Astronomican and described the Marine as a Blood Angel Terminator, who didn't hesitate, and got reduced to ash by Horus.

It was reprinted Picture and all, in WD 131, November 1990 and had the Advanced Space Crusade Scouts on the front, and that was where I first read it.



LatD has a short story on page 183 that makes mention of a Terminator getting turned to red dust just before the Emperor whacks horus, though there is no mention of what chapter the Terminator belongs too.

LatD was printed in 1990 (WD 131 was November of 1990) after the First Book of the Astronomicon (1988).


A colossally argumentative, arrogant, wrath-driven tool who hates everything.

Is he another forum member?

Shadow Lord
22-07-2010, 10:38
I don't think it really matters who it was that stood in Horus's way only that someone eventually did it without hesitation.
It showed the gravely wounded Emperor that his beloved son Horus was to far on the path of damnation to be saved and that he had to be stopped at all costs...I like the story best when it's a simple guardsmen then a Terminatour or whatever (like Weaver said so beautifully) but it doesn't really change what happened next (Emperor kills Horus)...

Gingerwerewolf
22-07-2010, 10:46
LatD has a short story on page 183 that makes mention of a Terminator getting turned to red dust just before the Emperor whacks horus, though there is no mention of what chapter the Terminator belongs too.

LatD was printed in 1990 (WD 131 was November of 1990) after the First Book of the Astronomicon (1988).

However, it is a reprint from Realm of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness which was printed in 1988. Ill have to go find it tonight and post appropriately tomorrow.


Is he another forum member?

To put you out of your Misery ADB is Dead.Blue.Clown and vice versa. Look at Dead.Blue.Clown's sig ;)

Malice313
22-07-2010, 10:58
However, it is a reprint from Realm of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness which was printed in 1988. Ill have to go find it tonight and post appropriately tomorrow.

Really? I don't remember reading that short story in StD. I'm pretty sure it was first printed in LatD:confused: I've just flipped through StD and can't find it. Maybe I'm wrong.


To put you out of your Misery ADB is Dead.Blue.Clown and vice versa. Look at Dead.Blue.Clown's sig ;)

D'oh!:eyebrows:

Iracundus
22-07-2010, 11:04
I don't have my sources handy at the moment so that is why I am asking, but was Ollanius Pius ever definitively confirmed to be a true figure as opposed to a mythical figure and tale possibly invented after the fact by either the Ecclesiarchy or the Imperial Army/Imperial Guard? I.E. Was the original story from the objective 3rd party narrator point of view or related as a story or figure believed to have done so. Could the answerer please also quote to confirm?

AndrewGPaul
22-07-2010, 11:10
It definitely was an interesting storey. An incredibly moving one, and inspiring. When it was a guardsman. A mere mortal, drawn from the fields of battle into the bowels of the closest physical thing to hell, seeing his Saviour lying crippled and broken, and standing before the full wrath of an Angry God (four, really). And he holds his ground. He gets mercilessly slaughtered for it, but he holds his ground. Because it is his duty. Not because he thinks he stands any chance of surviving. Not because he has some greater goal in mind. Nothing here is 'just as planned' or part of some greater machination. This humble, faithful guardsman stands his ground because he believes, and because it is his duty. That is epic. It is one of the most beautiful and tragic moments in the storey of this universe, no matter how you look at it. That is the stuff 40k is made of.

But a demi-deity, standing between deities? Slightly less engaging in my books. A lot less engaging. Still not bad though. But I dream of the 'official' reinstatement of St. Ollanius Pius.

My 40k Canon still maintains Ollanius Pius as the hero and the martyr of that day :)

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the sum total of canon relating to Ollanius Pious is, as far as I'm aware, this:


The central figure is an image of Ollanius Pious, the Guardsman who is supposed to have given his life by interposing his body between Horus and the Emperor during the assault on the Imperial Palace. If there's anything besides that (from the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium, page 38 - the caption to a 2-page spread of the 9th Necromundian advancing into battle).

When Bill King wrote the story of the final battle between the Emperor and Horus, it became an Imperial Fist because the action had shifted to Horus' battle barge, and unarmoured humans can't be teleported - it had to become a Terminator.

Brother of the Hydra
22-07-2010, 11:21
Naw. I'm a colossally argumentative, arrogant, wrath-driven tool who hates everything. A coup would only work if it was headed up by someone with people skills.

Thats good enought for me!! CHARGE...... :evilgrin:

Wait a minute here! if you have that type of mindset and can write books like that... I need to change jobs!! sure Mother & Father are getting a caravan near 'skintown so I will be in the same sort of environment!! look out world...

Lord Asgul
22-07-2010, 11:24
Bring Back Pious!!!

AndrewGPaul
22-07-2010, 11:38
However, it is a reprint from Realm of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness which was printed in 1988. Ill have to go find it tonight and post appropriately tomorrow.



To put you out of your Misery ADB is Dead.Blue.Clown and vice versa. Look at Dead.Blue.Clown's sig ;)

No, the Bill King short story was on pages 182 and 183 of The Lost And the Damned, the second volume. All Slaves To Darkness has to say on the matter is
The Emperor and an elite company of Custodes Adeptus [sic] soldiery and Imperial Fist Marines were then teleported into Horus' command bunker. In the firece fighting that followed Horus was killed (although his body was never found) and the Emperor seriously wounded. (page 243)

Over the years, it's gone from a single Guardsman (WD 109, painting of the Necromundian 9th) to a squad of Imperial Fist terminators (WD 112, rules for Terminators) to a single Terminator, legion unknown (Realm of Chaos: The Lost And The Damned) to a Custodian (Horus Heresy volume 4). I'm sorry, Aaron, but I'm going to side with Bill King on this one.

Clockwork-Knight
22-07-2010, 11:39
Perhaps Olanus Pious was a guardsman who was taken by the Imperial Fists legion as a initiate, becoming a regular astartes and even a veteran worthy of wearing terminator armor, and during the civil war was personally taken by the Emperor to become a Custodes. :p

AndrewGPaul
22-07-2010, 11:44
I'm more of the opinion that whoever it really was, various branches of the Imperium have adopted him as one of them. The Guard (and possibly the populace at large) believe it was Pious, while the Imperial Fists believe it was one of their own. Given that the true events of the Heresy, and especially the events on Horus' ship, are as classified as things will ever get, no-one's going to prove anyone else wrong.

I suppose it's inevitable that there'll eventually be a novel depicting the end of the Siege of Terra. I'd resigned myself to Bill's story being 'overwritten', but now that he's been lured back to write some more fantasy novels, I'm holding out faint hope that he'll get to write that novel, too.

Dead.Blue.Clown
22-07-2010, 12:11
Over the years, it's gone from a single Guardsman (WD 109, painting of the Necromundian 9th) to a squad of Imperial Fist terminators (WD 112, rules for Terminators) to a single Terminator, legion unknown (Realm of Chaos: The Lost And The Damned) to a Custodian (Horus Heresy volume 4). I'm sorry, Aaron, but I'm going to side with Bill King on this one.

What I expect will happen is that several viewpoints can all be considered correct, once the tale is told. That way, everyone is right and wrong.

But it's a long way off, so no sense taking any side, yet.

Either that, or someone will satisfyingly explain why it should be X above all, and we go with that.

Dead.Blue.Clown
22-07-2010, 12:13
I'm more of the opinion that whoever it really was, various branches of the Imperium have adopted him as one of them. The Guard (and possibly the populace at large) believe it was Pious, while the Imperial Fists believe it was one of their own. Given that the true events of the Heresy, and especially the events on Horus' ship, are as classified as things will ever get, no-one's going to prove anyone else wrong.

Yeah. That.

Iracundus
22-07-2010, 12:23
I actually favor Ollanius Pius being mythical, even if there was somebody intervening against Horus. It is entirely keeping with the nature of the Imperium to rewrite history or invent a propaganda figure similar to how in Orwell's 1984, the main character was involved in writing an obituary for a fictional figure in order to promote the interests of the state.

Since Sanguinius already fulfills the concept of standing fast to one's ideals even in the face of total futility and hopelessness, having another example so soon after the first is thematically redundant. The alternative utilizes the opportunity to show how the Imperium twists or outright fabricates the past.

abasio
22-07-2010, 14:29
I would love it to be Olanus Pious when the book is written but I think it would be a real challenge for the writer to justify why an imperial guardsman is included with a group including the emperor, custodes, primarches and terminators. It does seem a little far fetched that he would be up there but if the writer can present it believably then I'll be very happy to see Olanus Pious getting mercilessly slaughtered by Horus.

gitburna
22-07-2010, 14:38
Yeah. That.

" Aaaghhh... Dorn.. Brave... loyal...*gurgle* Guard...stopped Horus...opened my eyes.. destroyed him.. must build Golden Throne..."

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 16:15
Naw. I'm a colossally argumentative, arrogant, wrath-driven tool who hates everything. A coup would only work if it was headed up by someone with people skills.

That is just what I would expect the leader of a secret coup to say. :shifty:

And I suspect that, along the lines of the what the Dead Blue Clown suggests, that there will be all three individuals present in different fashions. Kind of like how they handled Garro's fate in FotE by making reference to all of the possible fates from Index Astartes.

Londinium
22-07-2010, 16:22
Well said, Iracundus. We can thank Matt Ward, yet again.

The chink thing predates Matt Ward by probably a decade. It's always been in there as part of the Blood Angels mythology, choose to believe it or not. For once Matt Ward can't be blamed for that particular bit of background. I do blame him for the Sanguinor though *shudders*

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 17:14
And I actually like the Sanguinor.

My version of Sanguinius, like Konrad, has twin-personalities. One noble as can be, one dark and depressing. Sanguinius could have easily ended up like Konrad, but something helped him step back from the edge. Upon his death at the hands of Horus, his soul split into two distinct halves. The first possessed the body of Azkaellon, the Sanguinary Guard. They other wandered the Empyrean until it heard the mental anguish of Brother Callistus and entered his broken mind.

But Mephiston, as that Librarian is now known, did not submit to the Primarch's soul. The unconscious dark-side of Sanguinius lurks within Mephiston, and in the direst of circumstances, Mephiston draws upon its awesome power.

And I'm off on a tangent again...

FarseerSinian
22-07-2010, 21:40
Defending the Custodian option, I preferred it because it kinda makes sense that it was a Custodian, seeing as how there forever bound to go with the Emperor. But he also has some intrigue. History will never remember his name, only his act. Plus it give the Emperor more compelling emotion. Seeing someone who has served you personally for 200+ years, cut down without honor or ceremony, by your once-beloved son.

By the way, where was Constantine Valor(Head-Custodian) during all this? You'd think he be with him. Was he still guarding the failed webway gate?

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 22:08
We don't know yet, Sinian.

Londinium
22-07-2010, 22:36
Valdor wasn't even in the fluff before Collected Visions IIRC so he'll probably be shoehorned in somewhere during the Siege. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a member of the strikeforce that goes onboard Horus' ship considering his role as the head bodyguard of the Big E.

The_Blind_Anarchist
22-07-2010, 22:38
He'll probably be there with Dorn and find the Emperors battered body.

flota
23-07-2010, 02:17
By the way, where was Constantine Valor(Head-Custodian) during all this? You'd think he be with him. Was he still guarding the failed webway gate?

wasnt him with the space wolves at the razing of prospero?
so i think that he would be on his way to Terra

Plebian
23-07-2010, 02:32
A colossally argumentative, arrogant, wrath-driven tool who hates everything.

The best Black Library author currently writing (best of all time goes to Barrington, sorry Aaron).

Gingerwerewolf
23-07-2010, 08:42
No, the Bill King short story was on pages 182 and 183 of The Lost And the Damned, the second volume. All Slaves To Darkness has to say on the matter is (page 243)

Over the years, it's gone from a single Guardsman (WD 109, painting of the Necromundian 9th) to a squad of Imperial Fist terminators (WD 112, rules for Terminators) to a single Terminator, legion unknown (Realm of Chaos: The Lost And The Damned) to a Custodian (Horus Heresy volume 4). I'm sorry, Aaron, but I'm going to side with Bill King on this one.

Well Ive gone back now and checked it out and the gentleman above is spot on. I also agree that Im more of the opinion that it should be a Terminator or Custodes that does it, not a Guardsman.

Im now trying desperately to work out where the hell I (and 3 friends of mine) became so sure that it was a Blood Angel Terminator. I wonder if it was Mike McVays Diorama http://www.sodemons.com/gwmuseum/horus/04100327.JPG

Karl MkVI
24-07-2010, 13:06
if it does turn out to be a custodian when the Siege of Terra is written, im guessing it will be Amon. two reasons;

1) they're building up the character in various books, and there tends to be a purpose to such behaviour (although, of course, that could just be for the purpose of big involvement in Prospero Burns).
2) Magnus says Amon is 'destined for great things', or words to that effect.

thats my guess anyway.

FlashGordon
27-07-2010, 12:02
Unless of course that was what the Cabal wanted all along. DUN-DUN-DUNNNNN.

This, it's obvious. ;)

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 17:03
But in turn, the Cabal is unknowingly serving the Chaos Gods, who are in turn being manipulated by the C'tan, who are in turn being manipulated by Qah and Cegorach, who are in turn being manipulated by the imprisioned Isha, who is actually Omegon in a dress, who is in turn the actual physical remnants of Horus possessed by the soul of Nathaniel Garro, who is in turn a bloated Eldrad after too many Eldar-crabcakes.

Clockwork-Knight
27-07-2010, 17:51
I am Alpharius.

FlashGordon
27-07-2010, 19:17
I am Alpharius.

pfft you are a dark elf. anyone can see that.

Clockwork-Knight
27-07-2010, 19:39
I disguised myself as my brother, Omegon, so that everybody would believe that I am Alpharius disguising as Omegon.

Also, the cabal is me, Alpharius.

Karl MkVI
27-07-2010, 19:42
Chuck Alpharius Norris. that is all.

Craftworld
27-07-2010, 19:44
We don't know yet, Sinian.

Sure we do; he was fighting alongside Leman Russ at the cleansing of Prospero.

Unless Valdor managed to get another ride home, that means he wasn't even there for the siege of Terra.


So does mine. It's something I plan to wield like a club when we get to the Horus Heresy meetings dealing with the Siege of Terra.

Yesssssss.

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 20:40
Sure we do; he was fighting alongside Leman Russ at the cleansing of Prospero.

Unless Valdor managed to get another ride home, that means he wasn't even there for the siege of Terra.

It is entirely possible. Once Magnus can no longer be captured, one would imagine that Valdor's primary objective is to get back to the Emperor. He could have left long before the Space Wolves or even he learned about the Heresy. I'm not saying he did, but as I originally stated, we don't know.


Yesssssss.

My sentiments exactly! :D Point to you, sir. Seeing ADB write that made me feel all warm and fuzzy. Hopefully they don't crucify him for it! ;)

Londinium
27-07-2010, 22:03
Sure we do; he was fighting alongside Leman Russ at the cleansing of Prospero.

Unless Valdor managed to get another ride home, that means he wasn't even there for the siege of Terra.



Yesssssss.

Theres six or seven years between Prospero and the Siege of Terra. Horus changed Russ' orders on Prospero before Istvaan which places Prospero at the same time or just after Istvvan; and the Wolves still found time to spend a couple years munching their way through traitors before Terra. Valdor could easily have been on Terra during the Siege, I'd assume the Custodes have their own form of transport and he returned via that way.

Lord Lorne Walkier
27-07-2010, 23:27
if it does turn out to be a custodian when the Siege of Terra is written, im guessing it will be Amon. two reasons;

1) they're building up the character in various books, and there tends to be a purpose to such behaviour (although, of course, that could just be for the purpose of big involvement in Prospero Burns).
2) Magnus says Amon is 'destined for great things', or words to that effect.

thats my guess anyway.

/agree 100 %

About the Alpha Legion....... Every thing written out them is most likely a lie including Legion. Other then them being the XX Legion and choosing Horus.



also A-DB = Aaron Dembski-Bowden = aka Dead.Blue.Clown Our local BL insider, Night Lord slanted, soon to be hitched...... Fluff nazi.

Lord Asgul
28-07-2010, 10:30
I disguised myself as my brother, Omegon, so that everybody would believe that I am Alpharius disguising as Omegon.

Also, the cabal is me, Alpharius.

I'm afraid I am Alpharius...you are Omegon

Nazerth
29-07-2010, 01:28
Alpharius is the biggest tool of the Heresy. Sure, Magnus got played, but it was done so stylishly! Tzeench was sitting there, tapping is fingers mumbling "excellent" over and over again for decades after that one. Fulgrim went super-nuts from a deamon imprisoned in the sword (I think Ferrus actually might have freed it when he started cutting through the blade with his own sword, allowing the Daemon a moment of much more influence over Fulgrim and the ability to possess him. But that's all my opinion...) and Angron, Pertruabo, Kurze and Mortarion were all unstable to begin with. But Alpharius?

He took the word of some FILTHY xenos who should be extinct and aren't really champions of good and eternal foes of Chaos, or else the Harlies would let them into the Black Library, instead of getting an Autarch to betray everything to get them in for a few moments. Also they have a deep seated hatred for humanity. All it took was a look at the future where he joins Horus and a happy little description of how Horus will kill humanity and somehow end the threat of Chaos (which, might I add, has been around MUCH longer than humans, not to mention one of the Gods owing not to humans at all for creation even) without any real proof, and he was pretty on board.

Also of note is the fact the he later doesn't participate in the Seige of Terra, though the Alpha Legion clearly could have instead of the little delaying actions they did. I think that he got wise to the Cabal's deception, got extremely pissed off, realized he and his legion would be branded traitors, and so went to hunt down and destroy the Cabal and go into hiding, having trouble with both likely. But that's all just my opinion again.

Lothlanathorian
29-07-2010, 03:12
My sentiments exactly! :D Point to you, sir. Seeing ADB write that made me feel all warm and fuzzy. Hopefully they don't crucify him for it! ;)

Everything ADB writes should make you feel warm and fuzzy inside. If it doesn't, then you are probably one of those whack jobs that hates puppies and eats babies and thinks that's completely acceptable behavior. Either way, I'll have none of it. :p


And, as awesome as it would be to have Mr. Pious involved, they'd have to work hard to make it work. Although, I have faith in Sir Aaron to get the job done. Now, whether or not he actually shows up with a Liousville Slugger carved to look like Ollaneus Pious and starts handing out concusions like beaded neckalces at Mardi Gras is another matter entirely. One, I think, that would be sufficiently convincing.:evilgrin:

Craftworld
29-07-2010, 04:57
It is entirely possible. Once Magnus can no longer be captured, one would imagine that Valdor's primary objective is to get back to the Emperor. He could have left long before the Space Wolves or even he learned about the Heresy. I'm not saying he did, but as I originally stated, we don't know.

Fair enough, I suppose as the elite of the elite it's quite possible they do have their own transports.


My sentiments exactly! :D Point to you, sir. Seeing ADB write that made me feel all warm and fuzzy. Hopefully they don't crucify him for it! ;)

I agree. It's like we've got a guy on the inside. :D

metal bawks
29-07-2010, 13:28
I've found something that confirms there were Guardsmen on the Vengeful Spirit: a free game released in WD161 recreated that battle, and the imperial forces indeed do include some IG. Note that the Chaos counters in the middle are possible Chaos reinforcements, so Angron and Magnus may not have appeared in the "real" version of events.

93355

Go Pious!!!

Col. Dash
30-07-2010, 19:50
Theres no reason there wouldnt be IG there. The Emp had to act fast and grabbed everyone in immediate reach to head up to Horus's ship. He probably wasnt very discriminating as it was very much a last ditch effort to survive. I side with Pious as well!

Nazerth
30-07-2010, 20:56
Silly Emperor. Silly Sanguinius. Silly Dorn.

If they had all just accepted Horus as lost, they could have just waited it out inside the still standing Imperial Palace. It wasn't long till the rest of the good guys showed up at Terra's doorstep... that IS why Horus dropped the shields of the Vengeful Spirit, remember? To tempt the Emperor to come to him because he knew he was out of time.

So the Emperor did indeed frantically grab whatever was around for his trip, in the hopes that if He could just get to Horus, he could talk him down and show him the truth before overwhelming odds appeared and blew the traitors apart.

Son of Sanguinius
30-07-2010, 21:31
Everything ADB writes should make you feel warm and fuzzy inside. If it doesn't, then you are probably one of those whack jobs that hates puppies and eats babies and thinks that's completely acceptable behavior. Either way, I'll have none of it. :p

Well I am one of those whack jobs, but it hurts when people think we can't feel warm and fuzzy too. :cries:


Fair enough, I suppose as the elite of the elite it's quite possible they do have their own transports.

Not only that, but my guess is that Custodian Guard quite easily reach the badassitude level required to commandeer other Imperial vessels.

MvS
30-07-2010, 21:32
I have a sneaking suspicion that somewhere along the line the mysterious warrior who charges at Horus at the Emperor's lowest moment may well turn into Valdor.

In some ways it would be a cop-out, but in others it would wrap up the story of this surprisingly important and dominant character who we never seem to hear about post-Heresy.

Son of Sanguinius
30-07-2010, 21:34
I have a sneaking suspicion that somewhere along the line the mysterious warrior who charges at Horus at the Emperor's lowest moment may well turn into Valdor.

In some ways it would be a cop-out, but in others it would wrap up the story of this surprisingly important and dominant character who we never seem to hear about post-Heresy.

If he had an important role post heresy, I'd imagine the Imperium would go a long was to cover it up.

I'm still holding out hope that when the final battle comes, it will be the Custodian Guard that are sent through the galaxy to call the Primarchs and other important Imperial figures to the Emperor's aid. :angel:

MvS
30-07-2010, 21:38
Naw. I'm a colossally argumentative, arrogant, wrath-driven tool who hates everything. A coup would only work if it was headed up by someone with people skills.
You're clearly an Erebus.

You just need to find a Horus. Things will probably take on a life of their own after that...


If he had an important role post heresy, I'd imagine the Imperium would go a long was to cover it up.
Or the Custodians may be occupied endlessly guarding the broken webway tunnel on Terra. A massively important job but one that effectively keeps them out of all subsequent games.

For instance, they should have done more to stop vandire but just didn't seem interested enough - not the model that seems to match the Custodes as portrayed throughout the Heresy novels.

AndrewGPaul
30-07-2010, 23:02
Vandire wasn't threatening the person of the Emperor, though. As such, it was none of the Custodes' concern.

Nemesis makes this point; Dorn is speaking to Valdor about the Assassins, and says that Valdor's job is to protect the Emperor. Dorn's (and his brothers') job is to protect the Imperium. The two are not always the same thing.

MvS
31-07-2010, 11:58
Indeed, but the follow on was sometimes they are, or indeed that Valdor regarded them as being the same... :)

Tabris2000
29-08-2010, 19:03
I have a sneaking suspicion that somewhere along the line the mysterious warrior who charges at Horus at the Emperor's lowest moment may well turn into Valdor.

In some ways it would be a cop-out, but in others it would wrap up the story of this surprisingly important and dominant character who we never seem to hear about post-Heresy.


Loken - his fantasies about the future during the Mournival ritual in Horus Rising certainly seems to foreshadow this.

Hialmar
07-09-2010, 21:23
I don't have my sources handy at the moment so that is why I am asking, but was Ollanius Pius ever definitively confirmed to be a true figure as opposed to a mythical figure and tale possibly invented after the fact by either the Ecclesiarchy or the Imperial Army/Imperial Guard? I.E. Was the original story from the objective 3rd party narrator point of view or related as a story or figure believed to have done so. Could the answerer please also quote to confirm?

Wouldn't this be hard(impossible) to prove with an objective 3rd party, as the only three folks in the room were Horus (AKA Toast), the Guardsman/Terminator/Custodes (Whichever you prefer, me I like the Guardsman myself), who was KIA and the Emperor (Who probably had more important things to do going on life support and the like) The story almost has to be told from an after the fact recreation (Probably by the 30K equivalent of CSI).

Pacific
12-09-2010, 14:33
Silly Emperor. Silly Sanguinius. Silly Dorn.

If they had all just accepted Horus as lost, they could have just waited it out inside the still standing Imperial Palace. It wasn't long till the rest of the good guys showed up at Terra's doorstep... that IS why Horus dropped the shields of the Vengeful Spirit, remember? To tempt the Emperor to come to him because he knew he was out of time.

So the Emperor did indeed frantically grab whatever was around for his trip, in the hopes that if He could just get to Horus, he could talk him down and show him the truth before overwhelming odds appeared and blew the traitors apart.

Not necessarily. The old chaos codex had it as an 'unknown' why Horus had dropped his shields, stating that perhaps he wanted to be able to witness the death of his father with this psychic sight, or that even he had one final vestige of regret at what he had done on the cusp of victory.

This story does seem to have been usurped by the 'other loyalists were on their way' story, which I find a bit of a shame. I always thought it was far more interesting when there was some kind of human element to Horus, something we can relate to as readers and his reason for becoming a traitor, rather than just the old 'a wizard did it' plot tool and answer any kind of question with, 'well, thats chaos'.