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TheDireAvenger
22-07-2010, 04:24
Have your say:

Whether it be Vostroyans, Steel Legion, Death Korp, Elysians, Mordians, Catachans, Cadians, Vahallans, Tanith, Tallarn, Last Chancers, or Attilans.

Who is the most elite Imperial Guard Army and why?

I feel Vostroyans are a definite contender due to their fluff and Mordians and Steel Legion being good contenders. Unfortunately Cadians, Death Korp and Elysians all have recent and repeated defeats in the fluff for me to consider them super-elite. (Imperial Armour 4, Vraks, and 8)

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 04:35
Not even a question, as far as I'm concerned. Catachans, and only Catachans.

None of the others face and train in the threats those guys do. In the normally "we're going to shoot you until you're dead then we'll really bring out the big guns" Imperial Guard, these guys like to thrown down face to face.

They can track, ambush, hunt, and kill like no other Guard units can.

They have Marbo. I should have said that first and just not have bothered with the rest. ;)

barrangas
22-07-2010, 04:57
I remember in on WD they listed a bunch of specialized legions that they came up with to suppliment existing ones that were either suggestions on what you could build with the Doctrine system or gave you a special Doctrine to use. It had Ork Hunters (who made Catachan look like Mordians), a regiment recruited from Necromunda gangs, and a legion of clones created from the DNA from various heroes of the Imperium but were often very unlucky. There were others too, but all seemed fairly elite.

Hellebore
22-07-2010, 04:58
I suppose it depends on how you define elite. Preppy nobs from Harvard are 'elite' but hardly 'competent'. :p

I'd say Deathworlders are extremely competent, but it's competence born from naturalised training. On the other hand storm trooper regiments, Elysian Drop Troopers etc are EDUCATED competent.

I recall reading that Cadians have several deathworld training planets they use to get their troops aclimatised to different planetary conditions.

Hellebore

herald of kairos
22-07-2010, 04:59
Mordian Iron Gaurd are the most elitest Gaurd army around although the most professional would probably be the Cadians though.
From their Background they train as much as Cadians but adhere rigidly to the tenets of the ministorium/tacticta more then cadians would as well their essentially all commisars
My apologies i just realised i was thinking of the terrax gaurd sorry

Silent_Moebius
22-07-2010, 05:42
Cadians. They fight the Eye of terror every day. Not playing in the forest with some animals, fighting deamons is way of honor ;)

Polaria
22-07-2010, 06:04
Terrax Guard. The regiments are composed purely of comissars and stormtroopers.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 06:15
Cadians. They fight the Eye of terror every day. Not playing in the forest with some animals, fighting deamons is way of honor ;)

Eye of Terror? The Cadians don't fight in the eye. They fight elsewhere, or guard the only stable planets and routes in the area. No one goes into the eye looking for a fight unless they are dumb, suicidal, already devoted to Chaos, or all of the above.

Playing in the forest? :D Really? Go say that to Marbo and I'll be impressed. ;)

cornonthecob
22-07-2010, 06:34
Fluff states that Vostroyans are second only to space marines.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 06:45
The fluff also states that Marneus Calgar defies physics and that Wazzdakka beat up a titan on his own and while on fire.

As my grandmother used to say, to hell with that noise.

Brother Luctus
22-07-2010, 07:35
For me are the Death Korps of Krieg.
They're awesome and utterly sinister. :skull:

TheDireAvenger
22-07-2010, 08:00
Fluff states that Vostroyans are second only to space marines.

This.

Also, Vostroyans are the only Guard regiment NOT raised en mass with having a steady constant recruitment. Their military tradition dates back to the Horus Heresy and their weapons are carried down from generation to generation. This also means above ALL their armies always have a large core of experienced veterans with a lot of combat experience unlike Cadians.

Cadians were eaten alive in Imperial Armour 4 and were literally totally helpless in that book. Cadians along with Tallarn also got owned in Imperial Armour 3 against the Tau. Elysians got owned in Imperial Armour 8 against Orks and Death Korp only won a Pyrrhic victory against the Renegades losing hundreds of thousands of their own men and were helpless against Chaos Space Marines.

I don't recall Vostroyans being openly defeated in fluff. Ever. There is a reason why they are on the cover of Battle Missions ;)

TheSanityAssassin
22-07-2010, 08:05
I thought the Tau smashed the Vostroyans in the Cities of Death fluff campaign?

Even though they eventually lose the Elysians are treated as VERY elite in one of the Word Bearer books.

Green-is-best
22-07-2010, 08:07
The Imperium loses or draws in every IA book. Even Vraks.

Anyway, the most elite IG army has got to be Cadians or Krieg since they raise their own Stormtrooper units. No other IG force in the fluff does that.

baneful
22-07-2010, 08:40
Mercian, Cadian, Byzant janizars, Phantine airborn, Jantine Patricians, Tanith, Praetorian, Catachan etc etc.

Just depends on when and where they fight, every guardsmen has the chance the be something great against the horrors that the universe throws at them (or they throw themselves at).

MagosHereticus
22-07-2010, 09:08
no such thing as elite guardsmen, all are meat for the meat grinder, even storm troopers are are just another chuck of offal

Crazy Ivan
22-07-2010, 09:45
Although I feel almost compelled to choose the Vostroyans, it's really comparing apples to oranges here. Different Guard formations are "elite" in different kinds of battleground and against different kinds of enemy, where others would do significantly worse. That's why there are Catachan Jungle Fighters and Tallarn Desert Raiders, etc. Ask Vostroyans or Steel Legions to fight in the Jungle, and they'll get eaten by the plantlife. Ask Mordians or Kriegans to do a stealth mission, and they'll stand out like an elephant in a China shop. Ask Attilans or Elysians to hold a battle line, and they'll get massacred. Different tools for different jobs.


Eye of Terror? The Cadians don't fight in the eye. They fight elsewhere, or guard the only stable planets and routes in the area. No one goes into the eye looking for a fight unless they are dumb, suicidal, already devoted to Chaos, or all of the above.

In the latest Space Wolf codex, there is a note about a Cadian battlegroup which volunteered to fight the enemy on its own ground during the 13th Black Crusade, and who go on (against the tactician's best instincts) to attack a Daemon World in the Eye of Terror. Most died. So yes, Cadians do fight in the Eye of Terror, and yes, they were clearly both suicidal and very stupid...

Malice313
22-07-2010, 10:07
I'm not sure the question is a particularly good one, as I'd say they are all elite as they are not standard IG armies.

Idaan
22-07-2010, 11:45
Eye of Terror? The Cadians don't fight in the eye. They fight elsewhere, or guard the only stable planets and routes in the area. No one goes into the eye looking for a fight unless they are dumb, suicidal, already devoted to Chaos, or all of the above.


Or Eldar.

(characters for the character god)

Lord Damocles
22-07-2010, 12:21
Fluff states that Vostroyans are second only to space marines.

This.
Source?



And before somebody says 'codex noob!' what it actually says is, 'Their [Vostroyans'] ancient pact drives them onwards, instilling them with a stubbornness, courage and fortitude rarely seen outside the Adeptus Astartes' (Codex: Imperial Guard (5th ed.), pg.18) - not 'They [Vostroyans] are second only to Space Marines'.

Mannimarco
22-07-2010, 12:44
Narmenian 1st armoured, whoever obadiah sheaffers boys are, 114 cadian mechanised (snake stranskis lot), Tanith first and only and of course the above mentioned Terrax guard.

TrooperTino
22-07-2010, 12:49
I was very impressed by the description of the Elysians in the Word Bearers BL book, and in every piece of fluff they are mentioned it sounds very elite. I voted the Elysians, they lack armour and firepower, but their infantry seems professional and well equiped.

And I think EVERY guard regiment is uber elite compared to our modern forces, the beginning of Brothers of the snake springs to mind.

Stonerhino
22-07-2010, 13:46
To bad the IoM does not get IG from Fenris. Durring the Plague of Unbelief the renegade IG had a hard time dealing with the native Fenrisians.

TheDireAvenger
22-07-2010, 13:55
To add a twist to this then.

What IG army do you feel can defeat a Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine chapter?

I feel the really big-guns/Siege/Tank oriented Guard Armies can do this such as Mordians, Steel Legion, and Vostroyans. E.g. Colossus Bombard: large blast, AP3, wounds on a 2+, no cover saves. ;) [lawls]

Catachans, Tarnith, and Elysians? No chance.

Also does anyone know where you could find official fluff about the Mordians apart from the tiny paragraph in the codex? They're a mystery to me.

Crazy Ivan
22-07-2010, 14:04
Also does anyone know where you could find official fluff about the Mordians apart from the tiny paragraph in the codex? They're a mystery to me.

You should read the short story Fall of Malvolion by Dan Abnett: it features Mordians getting eaten by Tyranids. It used to be on the GW website, but it isn't anymore. You should be able to find it on the web though.

Tonberry
22-07-2010, 14:57
Well the Tanith 1st have been through and survived pretty much every battlefield situation, be it pitched trench warfare, sieges, infiltration, air drops etc.

Plus, they have Mkoll.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 16:11
Or Eldar.

(characters for the character god)

DAMN! I stand corrected yet again. I'd be more upset if Maugan Ra wasn't so cool.

KingDeath
22-07-2010, 19:26
The last Chancers of course :D

monopeludo
22-07-2010, 23:53
The problem lies in defining elite.
I guess if tomorrow a dangerous race of unknown strengths and weaknesses is about to devour/conquer/enslave/destroy the earth, and The Emperor Himself appears to me and ask me for a IG army to be ready to defend us in a blink, I'd say: Catachans

madprophet
23-07-2010, 01:16
I don't recall Vostroyans being openly defeated in fluff. Ever. There is a reason why they are on the cover of Battle Missions ;)

Those were Valhallans - not Vostroyans. Valhallans are much cooler and much more WINZ :D

I may be biased though :cool:

MajorWesJanson
23-07-2010, 01:35
Catachans, Tarnith, and Elysians? No chance.


Tanith? have taken on Chaos Marines on several occasions, and come out sucessful. Mkoll vs Dreadnought, Gereon team vs Chaos kill team come to mind immediately.

Elysians? Take losses, but manage to kill Word Bearers at close to middle range in Dark Apostle.

If you want to bring weapons stats into it, Tanith use the Tread-Fether (Krak missile) standard, and Elysians are very big on Melta weaponry and Aircraft.

Gen.Steiner
23-07-2010, 03:41
Impossible to say. Define 'elite' - are we talking 'elite' like Napoleon's Imperial Guard, or the Household Division in Britain, or the Waffen-SS, or the Foreign Legion, or are we talking 'elite' as in 'special forces'?

Every Guard formation has good and bad units. Stormtroopers are widely considered the best Guard infantry units going, but they lack the heavy firepower of, say, a standard Guard platoon. Equally, is a superheavy regiment more elite than a standard tank regiment?

Nehemiah
23-07-2010, 04:41
It is strange how people keep asking to define elite.
I think the whole point of the poll is to define and debate that very question.

The reason I do not find any difficulty in defining elite is because the Last Chancers are in the list.
The Last Chancers are hand selected for each mission depending on the expertise needed to complete it. Most/all of them end up dead by the end, but they make damn sure the objective was completed.

Shovah
23-07-2010, 05:29
It just depends on where you are and on what occasion. Putting a Catachan Jungle Fighter on Valhalla is not going to turn out so well and vice versa for putting a Valhallan Ice Warrior on Catachan.

In terms of technology, I would say Elysian Drop Troops.
In terms of strength, I would say Catachan Jungle Fighters.
In terms of looks, I would say Mordian Iron Guard.

Vostroyan Firstborn weaponry is "worth more than the guardsmen who carry them" - Codex: Imperial Guard (5th Edition). Big hint...

chromedog
23-07-2010, 05:35
There are no more elite than other IG.
All are sandbaggers in the end.

All die just as easily as each other.

@shovah: Just means vostroyans carry expensive guns. Doesn't necessarily carry that they are more elite because of this. That's a matter of training and equipment, not just a cred balance. Look at Saddam's "Elite republican guard" for example. Flashy and expensive looking, but still sandbags.

Shovah
23-07-2010, 05:50
@shovah: Just means vostroyans carry expensive guns. Doesn't necessarily carry that they are more elite because of this. That's a matter of training and equipment, not just a cred balance. Look at Saddam's "Elite republican guard" for example. Flashy and expensive looking, but still sandbags.

I agree and that is what I was trying to say about them. I thought the quote would show that they are not as elite as people say if their weaponry is of higher importance than their lives.

Grimbad
23-07-2010, 06:01
Yep, nothing elite when every first born son on an entire planet is in the regiment. I mean, it's above total conscription like cadia, but it's not exactly volunteer.

Gen.Steiner
23-07-2010, 06:07
Well, if we're looking at elite infantry, then it has to be the Stormtroopers. Best training, best gear, and all of them religious warriors par excellence thanks to the Schola Progenia they come from. A strange combination of Delta Force and Foreign Legion Paratroopers with crusading zeal akin to the Templars, coupled with high motivation and morale provides the Guard with a shock force capable of anything asked of it. Doesn't hurt that they're often inserted by Valkyrie with Vulture support.

Although perhaps they're matched by the various Crusade Command Lifeguard units who protect the High Commanders of each Imperial Crusade.

Garven Dreis
23-07-2010, 06:13
I'd vote for Armageddon Steel Legion. Mechanized Infantry and Armour in combined arms assaults just screams Blitzkrieg to me.

Corvussanctus
23-07-2010, 09:30
Volpone Bluebloods! Heavy armour, born and breed to fight with a stubborn arrogance never to give up...that's elite.
Although they get a lot of bad press from the Tanith, as far as i remember Dan Abnett mentions in one book that they have only been defeated once.

Raxmei
23-07-2010, 12:03
I don't recall Vostroyans being openly defeated in fluff. Ever. There is a reason why they are on the cover of Battle Missions ;)Codex:Imperial Guard and Cities of Death. Vostroyan 16th completely destroyed fighting the Tau. That painting of Vostroyans chainswording fire warriors actually depicts their last stand moments before the Tau killed every last one of them. In assault.

Also in Codex IG, 9th Vostroyan was completely destroyed fighting Tyranids but that was a self-destruct gambit.

SultanBaal
23-07-2010, 14:47
In terms of survival rate I would say Tanith, and they do use a bit of a modern style of special forces.
Some one was talking about the Mordian Iron Guard the only thing i realy remember about them is that they are very disciplined and that they fire in mass volleys in formations similar to 18th century tactics

madprophet
23-07-2010, 20:26
Without a doubt the most elite regiment in the Imperial Guard is the 18th Lyubov Rifles :D

Col.Gravis
26-07-2010, 08:44
The most elite? Well it's the Storm Troopers clearly.

All the others are just grunts, some are better equipped in a certain aspect as befits whatever role they perform, some are more suited to certain enviroments (usually as natives to the same enviroment) or for certain roles are better then average and there are those who are well below par in one or all respects, but thats about the long and short of it.

TheDireAvenger
26-07-2010, 09:54
Who could defeat a space marine chapter?

Silent_Moebius
26-07-2010, 11:55
Eye of Terror? The Cadians don't fight in the eye. They fight elsewhere, or guard the only stable planets and routes in the area. No one goes into the eye looking for a fight unless they are dumb, suicidal, already devoted to Chaos, or all of the above.

Playing in the forest? :D Really? Go say that to Marbo and I'll be impressed. ;)

I didn't say fight IN the eye. But on the edge. From the Codex:
"Cadia has special and honoered place in the history of Mankind. It stands upon the edge of the Eye of Terror within a narrow corridor of stable space called the Cadian Gate, the only stable passage between the Chaos infested Deamon worlds of the Eye of Terror and the Imperium. No battlefleet of any size can rely upon other passages, but must pass through the Cadian Gate. Cadia is therefore one of the most strategically important planet in the galaxy."

So, if they were not the best, why would they be allowed to secure one of the most important planet in the galaxy? THAT is elite!

@Marbo, who is playing in the forest: Playing in the forest is NOT elite! :D

Crazy Ivan
26-07-2010, 12:17
I didn't say fight IN the eye. But on the edge. From the Codex:
"Cadia has special and honoered place in the history of Mankind. It stands upon the edge of the Eye of Terror within a narrow corridor of stable space called the Cadian Gate, the only stable passage between the Chaos infested Deamon worlds of the Eye of Terror and the Imperium. No battlefleet of any size can rely upon other passages, but must pass through the Cadian Gate. Cadia is therefore one of the most strategically important planet in the galaxy."

So, if they were not the best, why would they be allowed to secure one of the most important planet in the galaxy? THAT is elite!

However, according to Codex: Space Wolves, Cadians do fight in the Eye. So...

As for them being the best and therefore being allowed to secure the planet, I'd say it's the other way around: all Cadians not suited for combat against the Chaos forces out of the Eye will be weeded out very quickly by their peers, their superiors, the Inquisition or (of course) the attacking Chaos Legions. After all:


This is Cadia, you silly fool! Cadia! Right on the doorway of Chaos! Right in the heart of everything! The seepage of evil is so great, I have a hundred active cults to subdue every month! This place breeds recidivists like a pond breeds scum. This is Cadia! This is the Gate of the Eye! This is where the bloody work of the Inquisition is done!


Any Cadian who can't field-strip his own lasgun by age ten was born on the wrong planet.

Col. Dash
26-07-2010, 12:44
Elysians are the elite rangers of the Imperium along with the Harkoni warhawks(for ease I lump them in the same catagory). These are what everyone aspires to just like anyone who joins the army wants to be an airborne ranger(ducks his head).

Spyros80
26-07-2010, 12:44
Let's not forget Lucifer Blacks. Fluffwise, an officer managed a stike on a Primarch and drew blood, can't remember if it was Alpharius or Omegon.

massey
26-07-2010, 14:23
The one thing I can say for sure, is that it's not Kreig.

When I'm defining "elite", I'm going with a modern sense of the word. Each soldier is well trained, well equipped, has good morale, and is considered to be very competent. They fight using sound tactics, have good officers, and have a reputation for effective fighting.

Kreig has none of that, except possibly the rep. Possibly. They throw away the lives of their own men so often that guys aren't even named, they're numbered. Their fighting is dirty, hard work that involves hoisting sandbags and digging trenches. Meanwhile, heavy artillery booms overhead. They are broken men from a broken world, lining up to die. Not exactly "elite". Now, they might be an effective force (such anachronistic tactics seem to work in 40K), but they certainly aren't elite.

I'd consider the Elysian Drop Troops and other such forces to be the most elite. They have a more modern military mindset and seem to focus on having small, well-equipped strike forces rather than masses of infantry. Now, that doesn't mean they'll be more effective overall, or able to hang with marines, but it does appear they are intended to be the "elite" style guard.

Zweischneid
26-07-2010, 14:33
The most "elite" IG army? Probably those pesky Grey Knight Terminators they like to drag around with them... :cool:

MOMUS
26-07-2010, 19:35
Who could defeat a space marine chapter?

The very definition of trolling on a 40k forum. :chrome:

x-esiv-4c
26-07-2010, 19:43
The most elite?

It's the guardsman who has the stones or lack of self-preservation to climb that trench ladder, bayonette fixed. The guardsman who runs across no- man's land, stitched with gunfire and skin melting toxic gas. The guardsman who lunges over the enemy trench wall, driving his bayonetted lasgun through the throat of the panicked renegade.

Pyriel
26-07-2010, 19:45
guys...

its simple, realy: Tanith's first and only! even out of woods, apparently:
-their snipers can take out chaos dreadnoughts with mere lasguns.(it happened in a book)
-their heavy weapon specialists are so strong they perform feats of strength *space marines* dont do, such as weilding a Heavy Bolter while mobile (it happened in a book)

in genera, per the fluff(=books) Tanith snipers outsnipe inquisition's sniper assassins, Tanith rogues outsneak inquisitor sneaky assassins, etc. makes no sense, but hey-thats the fluff.

IceWind
26-07-2010, 19:50
It has to be Vostroyans.
Hey c'mon, anyone who runs around on a battlefield with a hat like that must be pretty confident that he can kill the enemy first even though the enemy sees his hat minutes before the guy himself. :D

spetswalshe
26-07-2010, 20:22
Catachans? Pfah. A childhood spent dodging animals and climbing trees is nothing compared to the Steel Legion, who spend a childhood fighting armed gangs and Orks. Sure, a Jungle Fighter can chuck a spear further, but when I need a lasgun round or a shiv planet in someone's spine I'm heading straight for a hive.


Elysians are the elite rangers of the Imperium along with the Harkoni warhawks(for ease I lump them in the same catagory). These are what everyone aspires to just like anyone who joins the army wants to be an airborne ranger(ducks his head).

So, they're the Ultramarines of the Imperial Guard? Damn I hate them already. Also I'm fairly convinced your Delta Force might have something to say about that second part. Also they don't spout a catchphrase like stock film characters :)

Elysians have some pretty over-the-top fluff (but that's standard practice; they're expert marksmen, just like everyone else) but the fact that they're all volunteer implies they're the most 'leet' by contemporary definition. Of course, it also implies they're absolutely tiny by IG standards, unless everyone on Elysia is in the PDF - which would make them, basically, Cadians. So I wouldn't expect the Elysians to last more than mere seconds against a Marine chapter; they have a very similar combat style (small numbers, well trained, expensive air support), and so can't possibly hope to compete against people much better trained and equipped.

Against a Chapter, I would go for Valhallans - huge numbers and heavy armour support are how the Guard get things done. Swamp them with infantry; when their ammo supplies run out, hammer them with artillery and then leisurely scoot around in your command Chimera running the survivors into the sea.

TheDireAvenger
26-07-2010, 21:37
How many people are voting for Cadians or Catachans because that's the army they play. :mad: Talk about being biased.

Vostroyans or Mordians don't get any love.

Crazy Ivan
26-07-2010, 22:02
How many people are voting for Cadians or Catachans because that's the army they play. :mad: Talk about being biased.

Vostroyans or Mordians don't get any love.

:confused: Cadians and Catachans are currently 2nd and 4th in the poll, respectively, whilst Elysians and Vostroyans are 1st and 3rd... Apart from that, Cadians and Catachans are elite, it's a major part of their background (in fact, all Guard regiments with models are special in some way).

Besides, without any hard facts or even a definition of "elite" to make an informed choice, how can you expect people not using their bias while voting? (Though I think this thread has some quite well-reasoned posts on the subject, actually)

Easy E
26-07-2010, 22:10
One thing often overlooked about Mordians is that they come from a night world. That means no one can see anything, so using dispersed formations is crazy talk. You would get seperated and lost. The only sensible tactic is to stand shoulder to shoulder and fire volleys into the night.

That said, if elite means most willing to follow an order no matter what, I'm going with the Mordian Iron Guard.

If it means best all around soldiers? I'm probably going with Cadians.

Bunnahabhain
26-07-2010, 22:14
Elysians.

Light infantry are always going to be the most elite part of any army - they have a job to do, and have to do it with man portable equipment, which means more training to get round the lack of heavy equipment. Of the choices in the poll, the Elysians, airborne (spaceborne) are the archetypal light infantry force.

Against a marine chapter? Any of them. Assuming you need a platoon of guardsmen to kill a single marine, then 40-50,00 guardsmen wipe out the chapter. Any of the listed regiments will have at least that many, including the Elysians- a whole planet to recruit from, even 100% volunteers, that's still not a small force.

Plenty of the above regiments, even if you assume you need a company of guardsmen to kill a single marine, could wipe out a marine chapter without breaking a sweat or even noticing the losses ( 150,000-200,000) as above average...

Admiral Koppenflak
27-07-2010, 06:05
Tanith First and Only.

Mkoll's boys aside, the entire regiment seems to be made up of lumberjack ninjas.

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 06:09
Lumberjack ninjas? Perhaps I need to be reading those books.

How would you rate them, 1-10? (5 being average)

Admiral Koppenflak
27-07-2010, 07:02
Hah. In the context of Guard?

9/10

They've not really found an opponent that can thrash them yet. Heavy infantry, renegades, space marines... They act like a modern light infantry regiment in every sense of the word, and adapt terrifically well no matter where they seem to be sent.

I do highly recommend the books. Abnett is an extraordinary writer.

Col. Dash
27-07-2010, 12:09
Maybe I didnt read the first part. I thought the question was who is the most elite. Elite means the best trained and best equipped. Generally small numbers. While the cadians, valhallans, tallarn, Vostryian, mordian etc may get the job done, they still do so by overwhelming numbers and tanks and such, they are bog standard forces equivalent to a normal army unit. Catachans would be a close second after the elysians, both of whom use special tactics with unique backgrounds. Elysians shine over the catachans as they are specially trained to work in very small numbers to do big things and happily air assault out of flying gunships to take and hold objectives until a line force arrives to relieve them, then they go off and do it again. After all paratroopers dont die, they just go to hell and regroup.
Delta, special forces and ANV would be storm troopers.

Thanatos_elNyx
27-07-2010, 12:37
Mordian Iron Guard.

No other Legion fights the horrors of the universe in full dress uniform!

Bunnahabhain
27-07-2010, 12:52
Mordian Iron Guard.

No other Legion fights the horrors of the universe in full dress uniform!

Except the praetorians.....

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 17:00
Hah. In the context of Guard?

9/10

They've not really found an opponent that can thrash them yet. Heavy infantry, renegades, space marines... They act like a modern light infantry regiment in every sense of the word, and adapt terrifically well no matter where they seem to be sent.

I do highly recommend the books. Abnett is an extraordinary writer.

Thanks. They sound like they wear plot armor, but then again, what BL protagonist doesn't? ;)

terryD1982
27-07-2010, 18:47
can any 1 tell me how many special weapons can i give 2 an imperial guard special weapons team i no i have to give 3 of them a special weapon but what about the over 3 can i spend points on them to give them special weapons as well as the codex dont sayif i can or cant it only tells me i can give 3 of them weapons what about the over 3 guys

Crazy Ivan
27-07-2010, 19:01
can any 1 tell me how many special weapons can i give 2 an imperial guard special weapons team i no i have to give 3 of them a special weapon but what about the over 3 can i spend points on them to give them special weapons as well as the codex dont sayif i can or cant it only tells me i can give 3 of them weapons what about the over 3 guys
Dude, wrong forum. You can only give three guardsmen special weapons in Special Weapons Squad, as it only says "Three Guardsmen must choose one of the following options". The other three aren't mentioned, so they don't have any options, so they can't get any special weapons.

Also, please try to use interpunction. Your post is very hard to read.

terryD1982
27-07-2010, 19:19
ok thank you and im sorry

Crazy Ivan
27-07-2010, 19:24
ok thank you and im sorry
No problem. You just have to remember not everyone's first language is English, so a little interpunction goes a long way. :)

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 20:42
No problem. You just have to remember not everyone's first language is English, so a little interpunction goes a long way. :)

I wonder if in the future people will look back and think we English speakers all devolved into crude, net-speaking techno-barbarian tribes.

Gen.Steiner
27-07-2010, 23:53
Trekno-Barbarians. :p

Quite a few armies fight in full dress - Terrax Guard, for instance.

Fallen DA
28-07-2010, 02:24
It would have to be the Elysians or Catachans for me. Both spend most of the fight cut off and surrounded. And/or behind enermy lines. Guess the Tanith Ghosts may also contend? Only option for collecting in my view is the Elysians though. The standard Catachans plastics SUCK, and you'd struggle I think to make a Tanith Force, unless you are willing to put in a lot of time and effort of course.

madprophet
28-07-2010, 03:28
the Valhallan 597th - after all, they have Caiaphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM :)

RedSarge
28-07-2010, 07:24
Raxmei ninja'd already but..

Vostroyans got murdered in the Medusa V campaign.
The Tau forces rained death upon them until by the end of the campaign, only a standard bearer and remnants of a command remained. They made one last push and met there end. (See: Battle Missions front cover)

My pick for most elite, assuming you mean in terms of general skill, discipline and tactical ability. Any REGIMENT led by Commissar Yarrick. :D

EVEN the down-troden clones of Krieg would win the day with Yarrick in charge.

808thMyrmidons
28-07-2010, 10:51
Death Korps of Krieg. did you think it was just a pretty name they thought up at the movies? the do not flinch from death. they see a situation that requires their immediate need and go directly to it. they are just plain tough as nails.

massey
28-07-2010, 11:38
Death Korps of Krieg. did you think it was just a pretty name they thought up at the movies? the do not flinch from death. they see a situation that requires their immediate need and go directly to it. they are just plain tough as nails.

You don't get to be called elite when your #1 distinguishing characteristic is throwing bodies at the enemy until they run out of bullets. I think they're called the "Death Korps" because they keep dying all the time.

Col. Dash
28-07-2010, 11:53
Being brave and dying selflessly does not make an elite unit. You can get a bunch of untrained fanatics and they will do the same thing, but you certainly wouldnt call them elite, far from it in fact. Elite is a training, skill, and experience thing. Now what the Krieg do have is a better trained weapon skill, so in that light perhaps you could make a case as they are highly trained in close in combat, but they are still a mob army so my vote is no(by the way I play them so i am not biased against them or anything)

Crazy Ivan
28-07-2010, 12:28
The Death Korps are, however, from the planet with the silliest name in the entire Imperium. If my planet was named "War", I'd be a fatalist too. :p

808thMyrmidons
28-07-2010, 13:08
You don't get to be called elite when your #1 distinguishing characteristic is throwing bodies at the enemy until they run out of bullets. I think they're called the "Death Korps" because they keep dying all the time.
they're called the Death Korps because thats what they do they fight, they die. they don't care how many bodies it takes to get a job done or to protect something. it will happened with the Krieg winning out in the end.you cannot train this dedication you cannot come by this from experience it is ingrained in their blood.

Being brave and dying selflessly does not make an elite unit. You can get a bunch of untrained fanatics and they will do the same thing, but you certainly wouldnt call them elite, far from it in fact. Elite is a training, skill, and experience thing. Now what the Krieg do have is a better trained weapon skill, so in that light perhaps you could make a case as they are highly trained in close in combat, but they are still a mob army so my vote is no(by the way I play them so i am not biased against them or anything)
i think we have a problem with communication cause when you say untrained fanatics i think of khornates. i will agree that training is a big part of what makes a person elite in fighting but i think the key thing that stands out among training, skill, and experience is COMBAT experience. you might be a crack shot on the firing range but shooting at a gaunt as it runs at you take guts you can't have if you're even remotely afraid to die. field stripping your lasgun in under 30 seconds takes skill and concentration but where does that go when bombs are flying over your head. as for experience it'll teach you one of two things. **** yourself or stand and fight.
its because of their fatalism that death does not scare them. that makes their morale (a very important thing when in war) very formidable
and its because of it that i consider the Krieg elite

Col. Dash
28-07-2010, 14:04
A fanatic may be a fanatic but they can still be trained. A Guard unit that turns to Khorne doesnt lose its training and turn into frothing madmen. Berserkers do that due to crap stuck in their brains, regular military units will still use tactics, look at Blood Pact for example. I doubt very many non-military units would turn to Khorne. I dont think the individual Kreig private gets alot of combat experience, they die too fast.

Backed into a corner faced with death of a bug running at you, I think most people would open fire, it might take a few shots but that training at the range will definately help and be evident over someone who hasnt spent as much time at the range.

Do field stripping drills often enough to be second nature and it becomes muscle memory and instinct even under fire. Not saying Krieg are a bunch of conscripts either, dont get me wrong, but being a meatgrinder unit and elite do not mix. They are good at what they do, no doubt, but elite, cant see it.

808thMyrmidons
28-07-2010, 15:04
I dont think the individual Kreig private gets alot of combat experience, they die too fast.

not always so. remember their training weeds out the weak and infirm (even if they are by a stretch of the imagination) and as for reflexively shooting at a gaunt i disagree. with a gaunt you've got something thats big, looks nasty, wants to eat you, and is heading straight your way. i would think that most people in that situation would run.

Col. Dash
28-07-2010, 15:28
We will have to disagree on that. I know when I stepped on and pissed off a rather large alligator while duck hunting a few years back, my first instinct was to point and open fire. I think most people even the barest recruit when armed with a rifle and the know-how to use it will shoot first regardless of how accurate they are(think the first ambush scene from Aliens). Now if they only had something silly like a sword in modern times, then yeah, discretion would likely be the better part of valor.

Askil the Undecided
28-07-2010, 15:39
I wouldn't consider any ARMY elite (they are called "regiments" don't let gamer slang infect background discussions please.) I especially wouldn't count ones that are wasted as meat in mass waves to be elite in any sense.

To my understanding the definition of an elite group is one that excels in a task to the point where it becomes valuable enough to only be used in situations that would serve the greatest utility.

Example:
Stormtroopers are elite, they are troopers specially trained, armed and equipped for storming things.

Snipers are elite, they are expert marksmen trained, armed and equipped specially for sniping at the enemy.

Grenadiers are elite, they are trained, armed and equipped specifically to serve as Grenadiers. (which is total balls in the current rulesets, being that grenades are unthowable combat buffs)

The Death Korps of Kreig (or any other entire military organisation of a planet) are not elite, they are a group of nobody dog soldiers who get deployed in all kinds of roles and are expected to deal with it and are trained, armed and equipped generally to this end. However they most likely have elite troops among their number.

massey
28-07-2010, 15:42
they're called the Death Korps because thats what they do they fight, they die. they don't care how many bodies it takes to get a job done or to protect something. it will happened with the Krieg winning out in the end.you cannot train this dedication you cannot come by this from experience it is ingrained in their blood.

So? That doesn't make them elite. It just means they're willing to throw bodies into the meatgrinder until they overwhelm you. That may be effective, but it's not elite.


i think we have a problem with communication cause when you say untrained fanatics i think of khornates. i will agree that training is a big part of what makes a person elite in fighting but i think the key thing that stands out among training, skill, and experience is COMBAT experience. you might be a crack shot on the firing range but shooting at a gaunt as it runs at you take guts you can't have if you're even remotely afraid to die. field stripping your lasgun in under 30 seconds takes skill and concentration but where does that go when bombs are flying over your head. as for experience it'll teach you one of two things. **** yourself or stand and fight.
its because of their fatalism that death does not scare them. that makes their morale (a very important thing when in war) very formidable
and its because of it that i consider the Krieg elite

You don't get lots of combat experience when you have a high attrition rate. You just don't. Because those guys who had combat experience are dead.


not always so. remember their training weeds out the weak and infirm (even if they are by a stretch of the imagination) and as for reflexively shooting at a gaunt i disagree. with a gaunt you've got something thats big, looks nasty, wants to eat you, and is heading straight your way. i would think that most people in that situation would run.

Most military people wouldn't. Most military people would shoot it. I'd shoot it, and the extent of my military training is when I was in college working for the bank and would deliver inter-office mail to the local Air Force base.

Bunnahabhain
28-07-2010, 16:41
Most military people wouldn't. Most military people would shoot it. I'd shoot it, and the extent of my military training is when I was in college working for the bank and would deliver inter-office mail to the local Air Force base.

Exactly. Especially for tyranids, where there is as little danger of possible of friendly fire incidents - It's not humanoid , SHOOT IT NOW!!!!!

Even if the Guard ( at an institutional level) don't care about friendly fire or collateral damage, trooper Joe Bloggs from Green platoon is likely to hesitate when firing in the direction of blue platoon if they are fighting renegades, so are trying to tell if that man is friend or foe. If they are 7 foot tall and green wyelling WARRRGGHH, then it's easier to tell, and if they have 8 legs, and are bright purple, SHOOT IT NOW!

massey
28-07-2010, 16:52
Yup. One of the things they discovered in WWII is that many soldiers would purposefully aim to miss their targets, because they don't really want to kill anybody. They try to break them of that habit during training. I don't think most soldiers are going to have a hard time shooting some big monster. The nicest, most peace-loving "let's all be friends and make daisy chains" hippy in the world isn't gonna have too much trouble gunning down some acid-drooling six legged clawed thing.

808thMyrmidons
28-07-2010, 23:15
you people seem to have forgotten the other reaction that comes from adrenaline. flight.
even if they're military people. they've been trained they've been drilled and then suddenly they're tossed in the middle of a combat zone with lasers flying over their head and large nasty creatures running at them. hearing about it and experiencing it are two different things.once they get used to the combat yes their first instinct will be to shoot but when they're still green like that they're gonna be on the fence of whether they should run or fight.

massey
29-07-2010, 01:51
you people seem to have forgotten the other reaction that comes from adrenaline. flight.
even if they're military people. they've been trained they've been drilled and then suddenly they're tossed in the middle of a combat zone with lasers flying over their head and large nasty creatures running at them. hearing about it and experiencing it are two different things.once they get used to the combat yes their first instinct will be to shoot but when they're still green like that they're gonna be on the fence of whether they should run or fight.

So? Death Korps of Krieg have the same Ld score as everybody else. Yeah, they're brave and all, but no more so than any other IG unit. They break and run when they fail a Ld test, just like everyone else.

Clockwork-Knight
29-07-2010, 03:11
In fact, they still fall in panic when massive enemy artillery shots tear through their ranks and the enemy fortifications prove too much for the kriegs to break through.

Corax
31-07-2010, 11:45
I wonder if in the future people will look back and think we English speakers all devolved into crude, net-speaking techno-barbarian tribes.

What? Like Orks? :D

As for the topic at hand, my vote goes to Praetorians. It takes a real man to go to war in a pith helmet in the 41st millennium!

Tactical Retreat!
31-07-2010, 13:20
Being Disciplined and brave isn't the same as Elite. Suicide bombers in the gaza strip aren't elite troops, nor are Death Korps.

My vote goes to Elysians or Tanith, the only regiments who fight smart and efficiently.

808thMyrmidons
31-07-2010, 16:34
im starting to believe that im flogging a dead horse here.

Wyrmwood
31-07-2010, 17:17
I don't know about elite, but my favourites are the Steel Legion and the Death Korps.

Fingol23
31-07-2010, 17:58
Tanith First and Only all the way. I would like to see Mckoll or Ezrah go toe to toe with Marbo, plus those two have the advantadge of beeing sane.

Rat Catcher
31-07-2010, 19:16
Being Disciplined and brave isn't the same as Elite. Suicide bombers in the gaza strip aren't elite troops, nor are Death Korps.

There is nothing brave about suicidal hate-mongers; however I understand what you're trying to say.

Shamana
31-07-2010, 20:41
@ Ratcatcher - someone willing to sacrifice their life to take others' may be accused of many things, but lack of bravery is not among them. Disciplined, on the other hand, I don't get.

Anyway, from what I know of 40k I'd go with the Cadians.

Surgency
31-07-2010, 20:49
I was disappointed to not see the Tanith First on the list. IMO, they're more elite than the other regiments, based on specialty

Tactical Retreat!
31-07-2010, 20:51
@ Ratcatcher - someone willing to sacrifice their life to take others' may be accused of many things, but lack of bravery is not among them. Disciplined, on the other hand, I don't get.

Anyway, from what I know of 40k I'd go with the Cadians.

Death Korps might be more disciplined than they are brave, and vice versa for suicide bombers. In the end they are both two sides of the same coin, which is willingness to put aside self-preservation for a "higher" purpose.

Note: I obviously don't approve of horrific terrorist actions like those in Gaza in any way, they just served as an example of human psychology.

madprophet
01-08-2010, 02:40
The question is one of fluff vs. game mechanics. In terms of fluff, any regiment can be elite - the Tanith are elite, so are the Volpone Blue Bloods, the Valhallan 597th is pretty butch too. Depends on who is the hero of the story - if it's a Gaunt's Ghosts story, the Tanith are the most awesomenest, bestest, most winz thing EVA!!!! If its a Space Marine story, what ever guard regiment it is will be nothing more than cannon fodder until the Spehss Murheenz come and save the day...

In terms of game mechanics - all guard regiments are the same unless we are talking about Kasrkin or Storm Troopers which have higher Ld scores, better BS scores, better armor and better weapons.

A Tanith squad (whether made of the official Tanith figures or converted from Catachans) has exactly the same battlefield effectiveness as a squad of the most generic Cadians or 23rd Thingamajig Regiment of Foot in game terms.

TheOneWithNoName
01-08-2010, 04:58
Elite formations suffer defeat the same as any other. I don't know why some people were trying to rule out regiments because of defeats (and lets face it every regiment has suffered losses).

Arathan
08-08-2010, 17:52
If you define elite as being damn good, well trained, well disciplined troops that can be counted on to do their job to a man then the Death Korps are definitely elite.
Every one of them has to be very competent and tough as nails because you can't choose which ones or how many reach the target to force a breach in the enemy defences. They aren't there to make the enemies exhaust their ammunition killing them but they are there to force the enemy to display a weakness and grab it no matter how many times they have to attack before it happens or how few men are alive to grab the opportunity when it appears.

They aren't special forces. Even their storm troopers aren't really special forces but just more infantry who are equipped for making a breakthrough when the possibility is there.

I see "an elite regiment" as being more towards the special forces part of the spectrum as a whole. Elysians doing rapid insertion missions with limited support/weaponry/manpower or Catachans fighting a war in surroundings that would simply annihilate most regiments without the enemy having to fire a shot etc.

I'm really on the fence if I'd call the Death Korps elite. They do a job that simply could not be done effectively by other forces but they rely as much on massive resources as individual ability to win their wars this goes against my image of special forces. Of course any other force in the same position would require even greater resources to achieve the same results and might simply be unable to achieve them due to breakdown of morale etc.

Askil the Undecided
08-08-2010, 18:10
The Imperial Guard is an elite formation.

Due to the lack of centralised control who the "top dog" of the Imperial Guard is remains a matter of localised opinion.

On Cadia the Kasrkin are the most astounding thing ever to walk the surface of a planet.

On Catachan the "Devils" are the hardest, toughest best thing since the beginning of time.

On Necromunda the "Spiders" are reckoned to be the most awesome fighters ever to escape the Underhive.

massey
08-08-2010, 22:46
If you define elite as being damn good, well trained, well disciplined troops that can be counted on to do their job to a man then the Death Korps are definitely elite.
Every one of them has to be very competent and tough as nails because you can't choose which ones or how many reach the target to force a breach in the enemy defences. They aren't there to make the enemies exhaust their ammunition killing them but they are there to force the enemy to display a weakness and grab it no matter how many times they have to attack before it happens or how few men are alive to grab the opportunity when it appears.

They aren't special forces. Even their storm troopers aren't really special forces but just more infantry who are equipped for making a breakthrough when the possibility is there.

I see "an elite regiment" as being more towards the special forces part of the spectrum as a whole. Elysians doing rapid insertion missions with limited support/weaponry/manpower or Catachans fighting a war in surroundings that would simply annihilate most regiments without the enemy having to fire a shot etc.

I'm really on the fence if I'd call the Death Korps elite. They do a job that simply could not be done effectively by other forces but they rely as much on massive resources as individual ability to win their wars this goes against my image of special forces. Of course any other force in the same position would require even greater resources to achieve the same results and might simply be unable to achieve them due to breakdown of morale etc.

They do a job that every nation in Europe could do back in WWI. They aren't elite. Their guys don't even have names. They literally have numbers so it's easier to count and see how many died.

Arathan
09-08-2010, 01:02
They do a job that every nation in Europe could do back in WWI.

The advent of the machine gun made the whole "charging across no man's land" unfeasible. No country had the resources nor the morale to pull it off.
That's not to say it's impossible but that no military on earth is capable or willing to do it because it would completely destroy the soldiers' morale not to mention expend manpower and equipment at an unacceptable rate.

The Death Korps do it though. An individual korpsman might break and flee or fall in the charge and not be able to force himself to get up and keep advancing but as a whole the siege regiments will step up to the front trenches and charge across no man's land into the murdering fire of pre-sighted modern artillery and machineguns as many times as is necessary to force an opening.

They don't do it because they aren't good for anything else. They do it because they are the only ones who can reliably do it regardless of how many men will die to achieve the goals. Hell, commissars function more like tactical advisors in Krieg regiments than enforcers.

massey
09-08-2010, 03:29
So they're elite because everyone else is smarter than them? Vraks lasted 10 years, and the Death Korps aren't the ones who broke the stalemate.

The Death Korps are a one-note army. Before the IA books, they had very little background info. Just because they got a cool range of models doesn't mean they're elite. They're a nod to the armies of WWI. That's it.

Gen.Steiner
09-08-2010, 04:43
They aren't special forces. Even their storm troopers aren't really special forces but just more infantry who are equipped for making a breakthrough when the possibility is there.

Actually, special forces is exactly what the Storm Troopers are. They perform the same role as SOF, with the added advantage of being able to form 'spearhead' units to create and exploit breaks in enemy lines, just like the original Stormtroopers of the Imperial German Army.

Friedrich von Offenbach
09-08-2010, 05:25
Surly, as much as i don't like to say it, the Cadians are the most 'elite'. In the guard codex they are described a bit like the Ultramarines: better than every one else and everyone wants to be like them.

Brother Captain Lucian
09-08-2010, 10:00
So they're elite because everyone else is smarter than them? Vraks lasted 10 years, and the Death Korps aren't the ones who broke the stalemate.

The Death Korps are a one-note army. Before the IA books, they had very little background info. Just because they got a cool range of models doesn't mean they're elite. They're a nod to the armies of WWI. That's it.

Now that everyone and their mothers seem to bash the Korps then i feel like expressing my opinnion aswell :angel:

Vraks lasted 10 years, what else would one expect when your fighting an enemy whos digged down in huge trenches, with huge walls and more guns than your avarage guardsmen regiment could muster.

Its a fight that no other regiment would be that "suited" for, and hence the korps was used. And they were winning... name me one regiment who wouldn't get beaten back when suddenly a massive force of zerkers, alpah legion and death guard come down in the middle of your lines :rolleyes:

Yes the army is based on WW1 theme. Thats what makes them so special, trench warfare will either break a man, or let him come out stronger. They are among the best guardsmen in combat, which is thanks to their hard training, disiplin and stubborness.

Anyway, its to early so ill have to edit stuff, since im sure some of it will make zero sence.

Last note : I would say all the IG regiments are elite, they are specialists at what they do. Krieg can do a war of attrition, they will break most armies given the time. The catachans would not win such a fight, but instead they would maul opponents in jungle warfare etc, where a krieg would just blast the whole forrest down to be able to do anything.

In the end all regiments are the elites, in what they do.

And no im not bashing any other regiments, im merely giving my oppinion on why Krieg have the rights to be called Elite, just as the others.

BCL.




They don't do it because they aren't good for anything else. They do it because they are the only ones who can reliably do it regardless of how many men will die to achieve the goals. Hell, commissars function more like tactical advisors in Krieg regiments than enforcers.

Also what he said.

Clockwork-Knight
09-08-2010, 15:57
I would have convinced the imperial navy to use bombers and other aircrafts for helping in the assault. The only anti-air weapons the vraksian defenders had were anti-orbital laser cannons, which are good against warships, but they can't shoot fast enough to take down a swarm of little flyers.
In fact, the Dark Angels could willy-nilly fly toward the space port and bomb it to rubble. No enemy airplanes, no flak cannons, no anti-air-missiles.
But of course, Vraks is an artificial situation meant to emulate Verdun and other brutal trench-wars of the 1st world war, and planes didn't play a big role, so for Vraks, there could not be air support for the ground army.
Perhaps the Imperium did not use air support because Vraks was also meant as a punishment for the Kriegs, so that they could pay of their sin of having rebelled against the Imperium in their blood, like some sort of penitence crusade, where faulty space marine chapters fight till they're all dead.