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The_NightBringer
22-07-2010, 20:08
Hey guys, I was just wondering, what is wrong with the blood angel's fluff? Now I don't have the codex, but I really do love anything with a vampire theme so I'm thinking of collecting them. However being a fluff-lover, I won't collect an army with a lame background.

Thanks, Nightbringer

sycopat
22-07-2010, 20:21
I quite like the blood angels background. They're pretty classical tragic heroes, perfect in almost every way, except for one crippling flaw which is their ultimate doom.

spetswalshe
22-07-2010, 20:25
Also one time they allied with Necrons. And didn't slaughter them afterwards.

Not cool, BA, not cool.

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 20:38
Personal opinion: Totally agree with spetwalshe. That moment was the most upsetting read I've had in some time.

A lot of people hate Sanguinor for various reasons. I'm a fan.

Some people don't like that Dante is now depressed and wondering what the point of life is.

Another two Avatars of Khaine die. I swear, they must be an endangered species now.

Edit: Robert Pattinson gets my vote to be Dante.

Devil Tree
22-07-2010, 21:44
The best way to answer your question would be to separate their general background theme from a lot of the fluff written about them.

Their background theme is pretty good. They're tragic heroes who have to use their blood lust in battle, while at the same time fighting a loosing battle against it's corrupting influence.

Their fluff on the other hand, has a marked tendency of being utterly idiotic. It's hard not to roll your eyes at things like a dozen BA's boarding and defeating a Chaos Battle Barge or what they do to those poor Avatars of the God of War.:rolleyes:

ashc
22-07-2010, 21:49
Generally the Blood Angels have a great back story. Stuff added in the new book already mentioned in this thread: Bad. Justing adding the prefix 'Blood' to a whole bunch of items, wargear, rules and weapons in the book: Also Bad.

FarseerSinian
22-07-2010, 21:54
The most annoying thing about Warhammer 40k is when a particular faction gets vastly overpowered. *cough-Ultramarines-cough* Beating TWO Avatars is kind of pushing it. Fulgrim barely beat one of them, and he needed a possessed Slaanesh sword to do it. If it was only just one, that be cool. Make it some over climactic battle. But two, sorta pushing it.

Another example is Ultramarine scouts sniping the TAU. (How the hell is that even possible?)

Balgora
22-07-2010, 21:56
The most annoying thing about Warhammer 40k is when a particular faction gets vastly overpowered. *cough-Ultramarines-cough* Beating TWO Avatars is kind of pushing it. Fulgrim barely beat one of them, and he needed a possessed Slaanesh sword to do it. If it was only just one, that be cool. Make it some over climactic battle. But two, sorta pushing it.

Another example is Ultramarine scouts sniping the TAU. (How the hell is that even possible?)

they'd infected the commander with special space marine lack of helmet stupidity, unfortunately he's wasn't made of awesomeness and suffered the consequences.

ashc
22-07-2010, 21:56
Another example is Ultramarine scouts sniping the TAU. (How the hell is that even possible?)

Don't forget a space-hobbit did it too :p

Tau recon ain't so hot!

FarseerSinian
22-07-2010, 22:04
I'm not even gonna bother with Marneus Calgar fluff...

Son of Sanguinius
22-07-2010, 22:07
Yeah, we probably shouldn't. I'm a veteran of the Flame Wars, and they were not the glorious battles they often get portrayed as.

DutchKillsRambo
23-07-2010, 02:45
Another example is Ultramarine scouts sniping the TAU. (How the hell is that even possible?)

With sniper rifles?

Son of Sanguinius
23-07-2010, 03:44
Yeah, I don't follow you there Sinian. How exactly are the scouts incapable of sniping the Tau?

FlashGordon
23-07-2010, 03:46
the problem is james swallow, there i said it.

Son of Sanguinius
23-07-2010, 04:08
Swallow has his good work and his bad.

ashc
23-07-2010, 07:23
the problem is james swallow, there i said it.

James Swallow ain't much at all to do with the bad background added to the codex.

killerbot
23-07-2010, 07:36
isnt tycho supposed to be dead aswell? yet we still have him as a char choice 2 times in the one book? lol.

ashc
23-07-2010, 07:41
Historical characters are back in, so it doesn't bother me that he is dead. 40k is a setting, not an ongoing soap opera (and if it was a soap opera, dead ones come back anyway :p )

Hellebore
23-07-2010, 08:06
Does this look like a high level of creativity?

Codex: Tiger Marines. Now with highly original and interesting concepts like Tigris Tigerson riding a Space Tiger with his Tiger claws inside a CloudTiger class dropship that fires tiger tooth missiles...

Luckily GW have yet to visit us with Codex Tiger Marines. Instead they just employed the same lack of creativity with both Codex Space Wolves and Blood Angels. blood shard bolter rounds, blood strike missiles, bloodfist, bloodtalons?

What are we, in the 2nd grade?

It's like they took a leaf out of the Angry Marines codex. I wouldn't be surprised if the next codex has a tank that fires angry marines at the enemy, an angry tank that fires angry missiles made of angry marines.

Oh and fast vindicators and deep striking land raiders. This just opens up a whole other can of worms, like the arguments over why no other marines can figure out how to drop a land raider from a thunderhawk. It's obviously not as risky as the codex says it is, because they blood angels do it ALL THE FREAKING TIME!

Hellebore

Polaria
23-07-2010, 08:49
Personal opinion: Totally agree with spetwalshe. That moment was the most upsetting read I've had in some time.

...

Some people don't like that Dante is now depressed and wondering what the point of life is.

Another two Avatars of Khaine die. I swear, they must be an endangered species now.

The Devil is in the details, I tell you... The "BA lovez Necron Tomb King", "Dante got the blues" and "Another Avatar bites the dust" is maybe 4 sentences out of the hundreds of pages that has been written about Blood Angels.

Still, for some people, thats 4 sentences too much.

The Judge
23-07-2010, 09:09
The section on Blood Angel Bikers is my pet peeve - apparently very few marines favour the bike as they prefer jump packs, which is fair enough, but suddenly those Marines who do favour the bike are second only to the Ravenwing in terms of skill in the saddle?

Just feels like a pointless "we're the best, even at stuff we don't like" piece of fluff.

Sephiroth
23-07-2010, 10:36
Stuff Seph didn't like:

The Blood Angels are Codex adherents. Now this doesn't stem from Ultramarine-hate (I actually rather like them, sans some of the more... eccentric background) but if the Blood Angels follow the Codex... what's the deal with the Blood Drinkers? I thought their whole "noteworthy" thing was that they alone have embraced the Codex - oh they drink blood now (hence the name)? Um, don't ALL Blood Angels drink blood?

Azkaellion. Sorry, but he just seems to be a need by Matt Ward to insert something of his own. They had tons of background names to draw on (Tower of Amareo? The Blade Encarmine of Belarius?) but apparently needed a completely new character.

Lamenters confirmed. Marked as Blood Angel Successor. Despite the fact the 21st was a secret project to enhance the Astartes, so I'd find it unlikely the Inquisition pointed it out to the Blood Angels - or that the Blood Angels and their descendants, who all seek a cure, didn't try to find them given they've somehow defeated the Flaw.

Stuff Seph is on the fence about:

The Sanguinor. Not too bad. Essentially a "Legion of the Damned" unit particularly for the Blood Angels. Passable, but would have preferred it to be more like a rank, like the Black Templar's Emperor's Champion; a Blood Angel (possibly Sanguinary Priest) whom has succumbed to the Black Rage, and given they all 'store' Sanguinius blood, his own powers just went "over 9000" as it were.

Could have done without the DBZ-esque fight with the Bloodthirster too. Particularly as it was the Bloodthirster which beat up Sanguinius himself on Signus Prime!

Nice Flesh Tearers. Now on the one hand, I like the tragedy of the new spin on the Flesh Tearers - their desire to meet a glorious end before their Chapter is numbered amongst the likes of the Traitor Legions is noble, particularly when you combine it with the events of the Third War for Amageddon - their will be no kind end for these doomed warriors. However, weren't these the guys listed who revelled in their notoriety? Led by a Chapter Master who shunned the advice of others? I like the angle, I just think its a bit 180 of the Flesh Tearers background.

Stuff Seph did like:

Stormraven Gunships. Not much more to say to that, but the Astartes did need a form of "drop ship" when you simply can't drop-pod in.

Polaria
23-07-2010, 11:38
The section on Blood Angel Bikers is my pet peeve - apparently very few marines favour the bike as they prefer jump packs, which is fair enough, but suddenly those Marines who do favour the bike are second only to the Ravenwing in terms of skill in the saddle?

Just feels like a pointless "we're the best, even at stuff we don't like" piece of fluff.

Ever noticed that when Codex: Space Marines came out Ultramarines were "best-at-everything"? When Codex: Space Wolves came out they were suddenly "better-than-ultramarines-at-everything"?

I think Codex: Blood Angels fits the company line quite solidly. :p

RunepriestRidcully
23-07-2010, 11:54
There is one word for all the bad fluff in the Blood Angels: Ward.
Seriously, every codex he has witten has had the worst fluff, and sure it was a good idea to expand a bit on Dante, but to turn him into "What is the point" man? I mean if they wanted to add to the Blood angels fluff, why not use Dants's name as a starting point, the Blood Angels are about to go through/see the worst possible=going through hell, they struggle and it will be a hard journey= Climbing mount Purgatory and lastly coming out greater then before, their faith strengthened= visiting heaven/meeting beatrice.
I was thinking before they released the codex "If they play up the renaissance theme, my wallet is screwd" they gave it to Ward, so any hopes of good fluff or even old fluff being left untouched were gone out the window, I guess my wallet was safe, and I pray they keep him away from Grey Knights and Thousand Sons.

Sinisterfence
23-07-2010, 20:53
Ward's stuff really isn't as bad as everyone is making out.. the necron "alliance" is justifyable in that both sides were withered down when fighting a foe that was a major concern for all parties, a tactical withdrawal is generally a good idea when you're supposed to be a "tactical genius".
Sanguinor I don't like, although my opinion is similar to Sephiroth's (it doesn't outright say what Sanguinor is, just hints that it isn't known to anyone outside the chapter).
Dante isn't "what-is-the-point man", he's *********** tired! he's been fighting for over 1100 years and lost a lot more friends, but he recognises his importance within the imperium and it keeps him going!

sheppe
23-07-2010, 23:54
sorry just to clarify, in the Sanguinor mini-tale about boarding the Night Lords BattleBarge, the Sargeant is implied to be Dante right? the way it ends with "Dante still fondly remembers the Sargeants new found Vigor" (paraphraised)

Son of Sanguinius
24-07-2010, 00:30
Yes, it is Dante.

Marshal2Crusaders
24-07-2010, 04:09
I love the Dante is depressed Meme. I keep thinking of Dante as the robot from hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.


"M'Lord, please help us! Daemons are attacking!"
"Oh, what's the point, they'll just be back again. The last time I banished your daemons no one thanked me at all..."

FabricatorGeneralMike
24-07-2010, 05:15
I love the Dante is depressed Meme. I keep thinking of Dante as the robot from hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.


"M'Lord, please help us! Daemons are attacking!"
"Oh, what's the point, they'll just be back again. The last time I banished your daemons no one thanked me at all..."

Sigh, I think I'll go cut myself.....then watch twilight....'flicks goth-hair to one side'

I think it must be Ward how' gets my gears grinding'. I hope he does the Eldar book just so we can see two craftworlds going at it, then both of their Avatars get pwnzor!!!!1!!!11

RunepriestRidcully
24-07-2010, 12:29
I love the Dante is depressed Meme. I keep thinking of Dante as the robot from hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.


"M'Lord, please help us! Daemons are attacking!"
"Oh, what's the point, they'll just be back again. The last time I banished your daemons no one thanked me at all..."

That is better then what is in the codex, and I can imagine the Grey Knights get like that as well! Could you do a slight twisting of each of the other famous chapters masters/lords?

Wyrmwood
24-07-2010, 14:00
If he wrote Codex: Inquisition, specifically the section on the Grey Knights, he'd probably add in some form of child molestation (running with the priest/monk motif). I say this, because clearly he is incapable of any creativity - Blood Angels =/= Vampires = BLOOD, he just rolls with the most brain dead, nonsensical association and expands on it till critical mass is reached.

Sinisterfence
24-07-2010, 17:03
If he wrote Codex: Inquisition, specifically the section on the Grey Knights, he'd probably add in some form of child molestation (running with the priest/monk motif). I say this, because clearly he is incapable of any creativity - Blood Angels =/= Vampires = BLOOD, he just rolls with the most brain dead, nonsensical association and expands on it till critical mass is reached.

Blood Angels have ALWAYS had a hint of vampire in them, I really don't get where people have suddenly got the impression they haven't from.. I clocked onto it when I was 7 so it's not exactly well hidden!

Craftworld
24-07-2010, 17:20
Could have done without the DBZ-esque fight with the Bloodthirster too. Particularly as it was the Bloodthirster which beat up Sanguinius himself on Signus Prime!

Ka'Bandha may have bested Sanguinius on Signus Prime; but he also had his back broken across Sanguinius' knee during the battle of Terra.

Sanguinius stomped on that "most favored of Khorne" like a rag-doll. So I find it fitting that a ghostly, possible psychic manifestation of the Primarch himself, kicks the crap out of him; or any Bloodthirster for that matter. :D

Col. Tartleton
24-07-2010, 17:28
Well lets look at what the Blood Angels have:

Sanguinor: Odds are he's the ghost/Emperor's Daemon of Sanguinius. He certainly acts like it.
Dante: Has been the chapter master for over a millennium without falling and is starting to slip into a melancholy.
Tycho: Dead but so intimidating he's still in the book.
Mephiston: Either the greatest warrior in the Imperium or he's actually a possessed Daemon Prince... I lean towards the latter. But it might be an Imperial Daemon like Sanguinor...

I'm sold right there. If I had my way with blending up codices I'd do a Order Space Marines (instead of Chaos) book with Sanguinor as a Greater Daemon, Mephiston as a Daemon Prince, Legion of the Damned as lesser daemons, and Death Company as possessed and such.

RunepriestRidcully
24-07-2010, 18:01
If he wrote Codex: Inquisition, specifically the section on the Grey Knights, he'd probably add in some form of child molestation (running with the priest/monk motif). I say this, because clearly he is incapable of any creativity - Blood Angels =/= Vampires = BLOOD, he just rolls with the most brain dead, nonsensical association and expands on it till critical mass is reached.

You have just made the fears of all Grey knight players so much worse, we were worried enough about what Ward would do to the Knights of Titan, and the thing is, it is not that difficult to see him putting it in, and thinking he was clever because of it.

FlashGordon
24-07-2010, 22:17
Mephiston is clearly a "Vampire Lord".

Son of Sanguinius
24-07-2010, 23:19
Personal theory- Sanguinius was schizophrenic, and upon his death his soul split. Half possessed Azkaellon, and the other half (the dark side) eventually buried itself in Mephiston but is not entirely conscious, allowing Mephiston to control himself and that power.

spetswalshe
24-07-2010, 23:57
To be fair, I'm not actually upset about the whole Necron/Blood Angel thing. A Space Marine commander who is willing to throw away the lives of his men (and their precious, precious power armour, holy boltguns and sacred combat knives) in order to kill off a few roboxenos - when he could simply back off, reload, wait for reinforcements then crush them utterly with a negligible casualties - is probably a mangy Space Wolf.

While for the most part I have no problem with Mat Ward and his scabrous infestation of everything, the Blood Bloods and their Wolf Wolves predecessors really grate. I mean, at the very least 'Blood Angels' has two bits to focus on; Blood and Angels; I'd actually get on board with Canis Wolfborn with Wolf Claws and a Wolftail talisman and Wolftooth necklace (he's like a freaking wolf graveyard, honestly) riding a Thunderwolf if they had another word in there that didn't relate to wolves. Nevertheless, the curse has lessened with the BA book - we do have things like the Stormraven, which would presumably have been called the Haemoangelus if Ward had his way.

I predict the Grey Knights will involve a character called Captain Dorian Chevalier, one called Templar Achromatis, a dreadnought variant called the Cataphract and a new force weapon called a greylance.

Raditz
25-07-2010, 00:53
I predict the Grey Knights will involve a character called Captain Dorian Chevalier, one called Templar Achromatis, a dreadnought variant called the Cataphract and a new force weapon called a greylance.

And instead of bikers, they'll have GKs on robotic horses.

AstartesWarMachine
25-07-2010, 02:45
I normally do not mind this much. But allying with the Necrons is all but completely unfeasible.

The Space Marines would never do such a thing. Ever.

Hellebore
25-07-2010, 02:48
Well space marines are for the most part intelligent (bad writing notwithstanding). The NECRONS however care so little for anything that allying with one force to defeat another is just not something they would think about doing. They'd probably either phase out and wait, or just kill both sides.

Hellebore

FlashGordon
25-07-2010, 10:36
people saying that the necrons and blood angels made an "Alliance" have clearly not read the story.

Zweischneid
25-07-2010, 12:09
people saying that the necrons and blood angels made an "Alliance" have clearly not read the story.

You sure?



The impromptu alliance proves to be Tyranids' undoing. Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one.



Doesn't get more "alliance" than that. Hell, they didn't just attack a common enemy at different sides of a planet, they literally "fought alongside" each other pretty much as you would expect and visualize it in an allies/team-tournament table-top game, with Monoliths porting around Assault Squads and all that.

In all honesty, I think it is among the best pieces in the Codex and there should be much, much, much more fluff like that simply because 40k alliance-games and team-tournaments across the world put every conceivable combination of armies together. IMO there should be reflections of this in the fluff too, rare as they might be. And the complement is obviously imperial forces fighting against each other, cue the Space Wolves vs. Flesh Tearer story in the Wolves Codex.

If there is only war, every faction and army should, at one point or another fight against every other faction, as well as alongside every other faction if the occasion demands. Its a point where the fluff at last appears to be catching up with the game and I consider it a good thing. But that just might be only me I s'pose.

spetswalshe
25-07-2010, 14:09
Anything is possible, when it comes to 40k. A decent writer could justify almost any alliance. While I agree the Necrons probably wouldn't actually consider it an alliance, given their enormously deviant way of thinking, if the Silent King had even the vaguest scrap of mind left he'd soon see the wisdom - and would probably have initiated the whole thing. A Marine is dogmatically anti-everything, treating pointless, inglorious death as part of their duty; a Necron simply knows that nothing else deserves to exist, and it's more important that they survive to continue their work (hence phasing out) than kill a bunch of stuff in a short time. I imagine both sides entirely expected to face each other again, very soon. The only real problem I have with it is Dante's involvement; I would expect any commander who allied with xenos, even temporarily, to face serious repercussions from his superiors later. And by serious repercussions I mean demotion or exile.

To be honest, a Necron/Marine alliance is probably more believeable than a Chaos Marine/Loyalist Marine one.

AstartesWarMachine
25-07-2010, 15:52
You sure?




Doesn't get more "alliance" than that. Hell, they didn't just attack a common enemy at different sides of a planet, they literally "fought alongside" each other pretty much as you would expect and visualize it in an allies/team-tournament table-top game, with Monoliths porting around Assault Squads and all that.

In all honesty, I think it is among the best pieces in the Codex and there should be much, much, much more fluff like that simply because 40k alliance-games and team-tournaments across the world put every conceivable combination of armies together. IMO there should be reflections of this in the fluff too, rare as they might be. And the complement is obviously imperial forces fighting against each other, cue the Space Wolves vs. Flesh Tearer story in the Wolves Codex.

If there is only war, every faction and army should, at one point or another fight against every other faction, as well as alongside every other faction if the occasion demands. Its a point where the fluff at last appears to be catching up with the game and I consider it a good thing. But that just might be only me I s'pose.I suppose you are right, but I just don't understand why they chose the Necrons.

The Necrons are an almost single-minded force that only has the goal of flaying all life from the galaxy. I see no reason why they would ever accept the assistance of any mortal race -- especially when they can just vanish from an unfavorable situation and let two of their enemies pound each other's heads in in their stead.

It is good, I just feel like it could have been done with a little bit more acknowledgement of the two longstanding facts it trounced:
A.) The Necrons don't want or need any help
and B.) The Astartes are supposed to be mortified of the idea of even looking upon Xenos without feeling disgust.

In the Ultramarine novels, one of the marines gets a bionic that is made from the living metal of a Necron unwillingly; when his hand is wrecked and repairs itself he is mortified and tormented, and this is represented throughout the next three novels prominently. How can one Space Marine be horrified by the idea of this, yet others tag team up with the same race?

I also dislike it because, to be frank, all the Necrons have right now is their lore, and their lore is supposed to be scary and intimidating. This "OMG WE NEED HALPP!!1!" vibe I got from this story just really makes them seem impotent. Of course, like you said, that could just be the fluff catching up with the tabletop, at this point...

Wyrmwood
25-07-2010, 19:52
Blood Angels have ALWAYS had a hint of vampire in them, I really don't get where people have suddenly got the impression they haven't from.. I clocked onto it when I was 7 so it's not exactly well hidden!

Aye, I know that. But it's been overblown, along with all the 'Blood' prefixes.

Zweischneid
25-07-2010, 20:05
In the Ultramarine novels, one of the marines gets a bionic that is made from the living metal of a Necron unwillingly; when his hand is wrecked and repairs itself he is mortified and tormented, and this is represented throughout the next three novels prominently. How can one Space Marine be horrified by the idea of this, yet others tag team up with the same race?


Honestly, BL novels aint a good representation of the background. Those things usually tend to go off the deep end with one wild idea or another. But they are not coherent among themselves, much less with the "core-fluff" from the rules and Codexes.

And Ultramarines even had a half-Eldar guy in their senior management for a long while. Picking one novel from some fringe author who blatantly overstated the xenophobia that plays a role in the 40k universe on some occasion is not a good indicator of the overall theme of background.

FlashGordon
25-07-2010, 20:40
You sure?


yes im sure.
It all depends on how you interpret what you read.

You missed the "Impromptu" next to "alliance", Impromtu means Offhand. So they did not sit down and talk to each other. They redirected their efforts to face the greater threat.

"Fighing alongside" is a very very loose term, and i imagine it is on army scale not sqad scale, which makes more sense and also more logical.

And it is(turning on those[..] they fought alonside[..] rather distateful) from an Astartes point of view, and as we know astartes are not suicidal murdermachines, they are honourable and know when to withdraw and lick their wounds("at least for the Blood Angels").

As for the Silent kings decision we can only speculate, but i doubt it has anything to do with a sense of honour for their "Impromptu Allies".

Spider-pope
25-07-2010, 21:56
Stuff Seph didn't like:

The Blood Angels are Codex adherents. Now this doesn't stem from Ultramarine-hate (I actually rather like them, sans some of the more... eccentric background) but if the Blood Angels follow the Codex... what's the deal with the Blood Drinkers? I thought their whole "noteworthy" thing was that they alone have embraced the Codex - oh they drink blood now (hence the name)? Um, don't ALL Blood Angels drink blood?

Blood Angels have always followed the Codex, just with the Death Company as an ad hoc formation. The big deal with the Blood Drinkers was that they followed the Codex's dictates on Heraldry and were the only Successor to do so, they didn't employ an excess of assault troops and may or may not have had a Death Company. Basically they were the opposite to what they've been turned into now, instead of one of the most far gone chapters they were the closest to normal.



Azkaellion. Sorry, but he just seems to be a need by Matt Ward to insert something of his own. They had tons of background names to draw on (Tower of Amareo? The Blade Encarmine of Belarius?) but apparently needed a completely new character.


Completely agree.



Lamenters confirmed. Marked as Blood Angel Successor. Despite the fact the 21st was a secret project to enhance the Astartes, so I'd find it unlikely the Inquisition pointed it out to the Blood Angels - or that the Blood Angels and their descendants, who all seek a cure, didn't try to find them given they've somehow defeated the Flaw.


The Lamenters are missing, and given their incredible bad luck it's unlikely any attempt to find them would ever succeed. Plus they are only rumoured to have beaten the flaw.



The Sanguinor. Not too bad. Essentially a "Legion of the Damned" unit particularly for the Blood Angels. Passable, but would have preferred it to be more like a rank, like the Black Templar's Emperor's Champion; a Blood Angel (possibly Sanguinary Priest) whom has succumbed to the Black Rage, and given they all 'store' Sanguinius blood, his own powers just went "over 9000" as it were.

I'm on the fence with The Sanguinor. There was no sign of any belief in an avatar of Sanguinius in previous fluff, heck James Swallow's Blood Angels duology hinges on the fact that there are no myths regarding the return or rebirth of Sanguinius in Blood Angel doctrine. Kinda spoils the characters argument when you have golden boy flying about every five minutes.

Overall the new stuff isn't too bad. The Blood Angels have stepped back a bit from the stupid Berzerker crap that was introduced in 3rd ed. But no where near the quality of 'Codex:Angels of Death' and it does introduce several stupid ideas into their background, most of which have already been stated in this thread by others.
I'm also biased against Ward given that as far as i'm concerned he ruined the Blood Drinkers, a chapter i've been collecting. I purposely chose them because they weren't the frothing madmen the Blood Angels were being turned into by the studio. Now they are everything i didn't like about the direction the BA were heading towards.

Zweischneid
26-07-2010, 08:41
As for the Silent kings decision we can only speculate, but i doubt it has anything to do with a sense of honour for their "Impromptu Allies".


Noone said it has to do with a sense of honour. But for a millenia-old Necron Lord, the rationale to join up with some Space Marines and even synergize their abilties, if necessary on a unit and squad level, is certainly plausible. There isn't anything that says otherwise and I don't think it makes sense to assume they did not do so.

Besides, an impromptu alliance is still an alliance; that is a rational choice by both sides to join forces. It isn't like the Tyranids just dropped down in the middle and they fought the swarm from different ends. At least that is not what the text implies. Blood Angels and Necrons were, after all, in the midest of tearing each other apart, so someone at some point had to communicate between the two factions, agree on an (impromtu & temporary) truce and agree to a joining of arms to "fight alongside" in some sort of coordinated way.

So likely Dante and the Silent King did have a chit-chat somewhere at some point, no matter how strained it might have been. If they went so far, I see no reason to believe that "brilliant strategiest" like Dante and possibly the Silent King didn't go all the way and had Necron Warriors fly in with red Stromravens or Assault Marines flanking out with a Wraith-wing to catch some Genestealers if this is what would have given them the needed "edge" against an overwhelming foe.

I don't think the Blood Angels would feel constrained by any sense of "honour" if the Necrons simply happend to have been on the same planet a few 1000 miles "over there" when the hive fleet arrived. And it is not what "fighting alongside" implies.

Dead.Blue.Clown
26-07-2010, 09:54
Noone said it has to do with a sense of honour. But for a millenia-old Necron Lord, the rationale to join up with some Space Marines and even synergize their abilties, if necessary on a unit and squad level, is certainly plausible. There isn't anything that says otherwise and I don't think it makes sense to assume they did not do so.

Besides, an impromptu alliance is still an alliance; that is a rational choice by both sides to join forces. It isn't like the Tyranids just dropped down in the middle and they fought the swarm from different ends. At least that is not what the text implies. Blood Angels and Necrons were, after all, in the midest of tearing each other apart, so someone at some point had to communicate between the two factions, agree on an (impromtu & temporary) truce and agree to a joining of arms to "fight alongside" in some sort of coordinated way.

So likely Dante and the Silent King did have a chit-chat somewhere at some point, no matter how strained it might have been. If they went so far, I see no reason to believe that "brilliant strategiest" like Dante and possibly the Silent King didn't go all the way and had Necron Warriors fly in with red Stromravens or Assault Marines flanking out with a Wraith-wing to catch some Genestealers if this is what would have given them the needed "edge" against an overwhelming foe.

I think you're being way too literal (and as a result, actually unrealistic) with the limited text provided. And yet, you're also speculating a great deal.

It seems more like the "impromptu alliance" was a matter of both sides turning immediately to face the greater threat, and over the course of the battle finding that their intentions were aligned. Given what we know of both factions, that's infinitely more realistic than a tea party where they discuss what to do.


Honestly, BL novels aint a good representation of the background. Those things usually tend to go off the deep end with one wild idea or another.

You say this, in a thread dedicated to complaining about a codex's representation of the background? Besides, the rules are famously poor at showing the setting. I didn't even realise that was debated anymore. It's been fact for so long, even said by the company itself.


And Ultramarines even had a half-Eldar guy in their senior management for a long while. Picking one novel from some fringe author who blatantly overstated the xenophobia that plays a role in the 40k universe on some occasion is not a good indicator of the overall theme of background.

But neither is bringing up outdated lore from 20 years ago as current fact. What was it? WD97? Just because something wasn't specifically retconned in a sentence in an errata doesn't mean it still applies 5 editions of the game later, when everything now is completely contrary to how things worked then. You're swearing by something that practically everyone involved in creating 40K canon would just shake their heads over and say "Oh, Rogue Trader, how adorably silly you were back then."

Penitent Engine
26-07-2010, 10:11
Something that should be taken into consideration: Do Necrons (not C'tan, NECRONS) talk?

Flame Boy
26-07-2010, 11:33
Personally, from the position of this "Silent King", I could probably glean a great deal of insight into how Space Marines and Tyranids fight when you can watch them fighting each other from up close. That would be very useful for my future campaigns of Space-Robot-Genocide.

Zweischneid
26-07-2010, 11:51
I think you're being way too literal (and as a result, actually unrealistic) with the limited text provided. And yet, you're also speculating a great deal.

It seems more like the "impromptu alliance" was a matter of both sides turning immediately to face the greater threat, and over the course of the battle finding that their intentions were aligned. Given what we know of both factions, that's infinitely more realistic than a tea party where they discuss what to do.


Why does that seem more likely? I am literal about it because the words "impromput alliance" were chosen for a reason. If the author wanted to say that they simply turned upon the same enemy, he wouldn't have used those words. I think you are speculating far more than I do simply for the sake of saving your skewed vision of the fluff.



You say this, in a thread dedicated to complaining about a codex's representation of the background? Besides, the rules are famously poor at showing the setting. I didn't even realise that was debated anymore. It's been fact for so long, even said by the company itself.


A good reason as any to bring all that random fluff up-to-speed with the rules, which Necron-Blood Angel-Alliances appears to be an awsome first step towards doing so (and just a page later, Mephiston has tea with Eldrad, so this doesn't look like a single mistake one could blame on poor wording).

Necron/Blood Angel Alliances is a great springboard for further campaigns, battles, and spin-offs that can go any which way. A story about Xenos-fight-Marines-no-quarters-one-side-wins doesn't add anything.



But neither is bringing up outdated lore from 20 years ago as current fact. What was it? WD97? Just because something wasn't specifically retconned in a sentence in an errata doesn't mean it still applies 5 editions of the game later, when everything now is completely contrary to how things worked then. You're swearing by something that practically everyone involved in creating 40K canon would just shake their heads over and say "Oh, Rogue Trader, how adorably silly you were back then."

Exactly the point I wanted to make regarding those UM novels. In many ways, 40K fluff has come full-circle and the WD97 is perhaps more "in-line" with todays "go-wild" trend in 40K than those depressing 3rd/4th edition times when they tried to push the fascist side of Space Marines.

Blood Angels fight side by side with Necrons and Eldars, the new Blood Claw Character in the new Wolves codex is even sculpted with some Eldar-tech on the model. The xenophopic-fantatic spin of the BT-area Space Marines is thankfully getting retconned out of the game and good riddance to it.

Dead.Blue.Clown
26-07-2010, 12:03
I think you are speculating far more than I do simply for the sake of saving your skewed vision of the fluff.

No one sees "the fluff" the same way, which is part and parcel of the setting. "Impromptu alliance" can mean anything. You prefer it to mean a meeting between the Blood Angel and Necron leaders, where they hammer out the ideas. I find that ball-achingly unrealistic, and suspect it was more an alliance of fortune and convenience, where they found themselves united through desperation, rather than planning.

You cite X and Y being retconned, yet cling to ancient stuff that's long been out of the setting. The difference is, I don't think you're wrong. You just see it differently to me. You, on the other hand, cling to a slightly more stubborn and sneering approach, insisting your way is The Way.

Good luck with that.

Zweischneid
26-07-2010, 12:19
You just see it differently to me. You, on the other hand, cling to a slightly more stubborn and sneering approach, insisting your way is The Way.

Good luck with that.

Hmm...

Honestly, the "speculation" phrase you quoted and which appears to have set you off was just a mirroring of your own words from the post before.

If that piece aggravated you, than maybe you ought to take a look at your own "slightly more stuborn and sneering approach" of previous posts.

I am, of course, perfectly fine with notions of "every group and person can make the fluff their own".

I was, primarly, trying to point out how much I like this particular direction the fluff appears to have recently taken and was myself rewarded by a barrage of "slightly more stuborn and sneering" responses that thought to educate me on "how Space Marines/Necrons really are" in a rather condescending manner.

If I've let that take off my cool too much in my responses, I apologize.

Dead.Blue.Clown
26-07-2010, 14:06
If I've let that take off my cool too much in my responses, I apologize.

Well, you apologised first, so I'll apologise harder. Now we're even.

Actually, nonsense aside, I'm now not sure what I think. Four hours ago, the premise seemed "ball-achingly unrealistic". Now, not so much, given certain parameters in however it potentially played out.

Either way, it can be murder to make sense of the littlest lines of text in these things, especially when they're left vague (for intentional or unintentional purposes). This is a good example.

Karl MkVI
26-07-2010, 14:30
The xenophopic-fantatic spin of the BT-area Space Marines is thankfully getting retconned out of the game and good riddance to it.

it's not getting retconned at all. they are xenophobic fanatics, and massively so. that's their perogative. the space marines are supposed to hate the alien, the mutant, the heretic. one only has to read Dead.Blue.Clown's own Helsreach* to see that such an attitude is still very much there.

there is a huge difference between 'constantly wanting to slaughter aliens', and 'being willing to do so at the sacrifice of your own selves under pointless circumstances', which is what would have happened had the alliance not have been formed. are you honestly suggesting Dante enjoyed doing it? of course you aren't, I'm sure. but he has a sense of ingenuity; there's no point completing his objective of wanton slaughter in this case, so he takes the 'lesser of two evils' option; allying with xenos, in order to kill xenos, so that he can come back and kill the other xenos later.

*fantastic, btw sir. :)

Zweischneid
26-07-2010, 14:47
it's not getting retconned at all. they are xenophobic fanatics, and massively so. that's their perogative. the space marines are supposed to hate the alien, the mutant, the heretic. one only has to read Dead.Blue.Clown's own Helsreach* to see that such an attitude is still very much there.

there is a huge difference between 'constantly wanting to slaughter aliens', and 'being willing to do so at the sacrifice of your own selves under pointless circumstances', which is what would have happened had the alliance not have been formed. are you honestly suggesting Dante enjoyed doing it? of course you aren't, I'm sure. but he has a sense of ingenuity; there's no point completing his objective of wanton slaughter in this case, so he takes the 'lesser of two evils' option; allying with xenos, in order to kill xenos, so that he can come back and kill the other xenos later.

*fantastic, btw sir. :)

Never did I imply anywhere that Dante would have "enjoyed" that. And obviously they would have been at each others throats until the bitter end if circumstances were different. That, by the very definition of "there is only war" is true in the 40K universe at any give point for any given pairing.

What I feel is new, and to me at least welcome, is that acknowledgement that equally, if the conditions and circumstances permit, any given pairing of known 40K factions is rational enough to actually form an alliance. And alliance in that sense, to me at least, is a term that implies more than "we happened to be shooting in the same direction".

The reason why I like this spin is precisely because it opens endless gaming possiblities. I can go and recreate a team-game with Blood Angels and Necrons on the same side. I can spin the campaign further and maybe have a game of Blood Angels vs. some Guard/Inquisitor/Grey Hunter mix if perhaps word gets out. Perhaps I have the Nids, under the command of a particularly wily Swarmlord join the Guard because they see it as an opportunity to learn more about Necrons. Maybe I add then Nid-hunting Ultramarines into the mix who end up fighting Blood Angels, etc.., etc.., etc..

I am well aware that there are "other" interpretations of Space Marine fluff out there that wouldn't in the least allow any of such match-ups. The fact is, that is how the game is played around the world and if the fluff moves abit to accomodate this better, than the whole of 40K, which currently seems so disjointed between the "game" and the "background", will, in my humble opinion, benefit from an increase in synergy.

Shifting alliances all round (with all the backstabbing and mistrust you can load on top of it) simply make for a much better background for a multi-faction wargame than a background stagnant around immutable and inviolatable divides between certain groups. And I personally feel that the very recent fluff (i.e. Wolves and BA Codex) has been moving ever so slightly in that direction.

Karl MkVI
26-07-2010, 16:06
Never did I imply anywhere that Dante would have "enjoyed" that. And obviously they would have been at each others throats until the bitter end if circumstances were different. That, by the very definition of "there is only war" is true in the 40K universe at any give point for any given pairing.

What I feel is new, and to me at least welcome, is that acknowledgement that equally, if the conditions and circumstances permit, any given pairing of known 40K factions is rational enough to actually form an alliance. And alliance in that sense, to me at least, is a term that implies more than "we happened to be shooting in the same direction".

The reason why I like this spin is precisely because it opens endless gaming possiblities. I can go and recreate a team-game with Blood Angels and Necrons on the same side. I can spin the campaign further and maybe have a game of Blood Angels vs. some Guard/Inquisitor/Grey Hunter mix if perhaps word gets out. Perhaps I have the Nids, under the command of a particularly wily Swarmlord join the Guard because they see it as an opportunity to learn more about Necrons. Maybe I add then Nid-hunting Ultramarines into the mix who end up fighting Blood Angels, etc.., etc.., etc..

I am well aware that there are "other" interpretations of Space Marine fluff out there that wouldn't in the least allow any of such match-ups. The fact is, that is how the game is played around the world and if the fluff moves abit to accomodate this better, than the whole of 40K, which currently seems so disjointed between the "game" and the "background", will, in my humble opinion, benefit from an increase in synergy.

Shifting alliances all round (with all the backstabbing and mistrust you can load on top of it) simply make for a much better background for a multi-faction wargame than a background stagnant around immutable and inviolatable divides between certain groups. And I personally feel that the very recent fluff (i.e. Wolves and BA Codex) has been moving ever so slightly in that direction.

fair enough. from a gamer's perspective, you're very much correct; it helps. I personally seem to be half way between the two views; on the one hand, I agree with what you're saying for gaming purposes, particularly with regards to the scope that such possibilities add. however, the flip side is that im not sure it makes sense for this to happen very often at all.

for example, Blood Angels fighting Ultramarines in force could be the sort of event to start a full-on civil war. but i do fully understand what you're saying, especially with regards a gamer's perspective. however, my main point is this; marines still hate everyone, basically. the fact that they can 'push it down now and again for the Greater Good' is a very different notion from 'oft considering the tactical merits of allying with aliens'. see where im coming from?

Lupe
26-07-2010, 16:32
I normally do not mind this much. But allying with the Necrons is all but completely unfeasible.

The Space Marines would never do such a thing. Ever.

Wouldn't they?

The Blood Angels are a dying chapter, and Dante himself is well aware of this. He's feeling the pressure of Sanguinius' bloodline slowly dying out within them. He's seen generation after generation of worthy heroes die, or worse, succumb to the illnesses that plague them - a fate far worse than death.

He knows how vital it is to ensure the survival of his chapter. Not just as a military response force - and a formidable one at that. But the psychological effects of losing the Blood Angels would be devastating for the Imperium. The legacy of Sanguinius - the Emperor's most loyal son - would be forever lost. Worse still, it could well mark a new loss of faith - think Age of Apostasy, or Plague of Unbelief.

So, now, the wise, melancholic and maybe regretful Dante sees the opportunity to spare his men from a war on two fronts. Do you think he's going to waste that chance, in the name of pride and blind zealotry? He's aware that he may be deceived at any point, of course, but as long as the truce lasts, he's going to make the most of it.

And when finally the splinter fleet is beaten back... the Necron push that he's been waiting for never comes. He's lost his chance to rid the Imperium of a threat, but he feels relieved. Who knows how many Astartes live to fight another day, and, more importantly, to not overstretch the chapter. Who knows how many more have been spared from the mindless bloodrage, or the haunting nightmares of their primarch's death?

He could, of course, pursue and engage them, nonetheless, shouting out the Emperor's name as he leads his veterans once more into the jaws of death. But would that course of action be worth the price? The reaper's toll, in men? Or giving up the very ideals he stands for - safeguarding his chapter, and ensuring Sanguinius' descendants will continue to watch over the Imperium for another hundred centuries.

And even had he been willing to sacrifice all this, the ancient enemies of life had been, even for the briefest while, his allies - there, in the thick of it, fighting side by side with his own forces, against a threat far larger than anyone could imagine. Like it or not, when he could not call on on the Imperium's full might to fend off the Tyranids, the Necrons had offered him support. And more, they had stayed true to their unspoken pact - for what else but unspoken could a pact with the soulless be - even when the more friendlier xeno races would have deceived him to fulfill their own goals. For that, he could respect the Silent King. Come the next day, Dante would still hate him, and his whole unnatural race, but he could not bring himself to break another warrior's trust, especially not when his foe had upheld his end of the bargain.

Karl MkVI
26-07-2010, 18:26
agreed, Lupe.

also; very poetic!! me like :D

Lupe
26-07-2010, 18:45
The way I see it, people who say "marines are so xenophobic they would never consider it" are thinking as people in their teens, twenties or thirties who paint and subsequently play with plastic figures.

They never consider the in-character perspective.

Dante is supposed to be older than most dreadnoughts out there. Hell, depending on whether there was a founding within the 41st millennium, he might even be older than some chapters.

He's spent all his incredibly long life fully aware that his fate, and that of every single person he knows, will likely lead to death, madness or unimaginable agony.

He's seen his friends from the scout company die, one after another - impaled on a hive tyrant's claws, or cut in half by chainaxes, disintegrated by necron gauss beams, or even blown to bits by a plasma gun misfiring. He's seen the sergeants from his initial postings die or succumb to madness. He's seen the company captains suffer the same fate. Over the centuries he's made friends from every generation, and since his promotion to Chapter Master, he's pretty much been familiar with every warrior that recieved a promotion of his own. The Codes states that a Chapter should limit itself to a thousand marines - he has seen maybe five times that number. Most of those have long since received the Emperor's Peace. Others still have died isolated, never to have their geneseed returned, or have been lost to the Warp, or overpowered and dragged into the Webway by raiders from Commoragh. Hell, most chapters have already changed chapter masters twice or more since his promotion.

You'd kinda expect that this sort of life experience dulls out the brash, reckless xenophobia of your average marine recruit. So yes, it does make complete sense that Dante would actually think for a god damned second past the whole "kill it with fire" attitude the Imperium is so fond of.


I also dislike it because, to be frank, all the Necrons have right now is their lore, and their lore is supposed to be scary and intimidating. This "OMG WE NEED HALPP!!1!" vibe I got from this story just really makes them seem impotent. Of course, like you said, that could just be the fluff catching up with the tabletop, at this point...

As for this part...

I always found it so much more scary that the necrons would simply phase out when reaching 20% of their initial strength.

It makes them seem so cold and clinical that it's scary. They don't break into a rout. They don't make a fighting retreat. They fething vanish.

Then there's the fact that we never really get a good explanation (and believe me, this is one loose end I never want to see an answer to) for why the necrons suddenly emerge from their tomb worlds every now and then. That also helps make them a great deal scarier. The best theory that the Imperium can come up with is that they're on a timeless harvest, or a quest to wipe out all life from the galaxy. Yet time and again, we're being presented with necrons vanishing out without a trace or apparent reason, despite the fact that they seem to have their enemies cornered. (Cain's Last Stand; Dark Creed; Blood Angels Dex).

Normally I would just call this behavior cowardly, but given the fact that they're soulless metal automatons, guided only by cold logic, it's all the more disturbing.

As far as nightmare fuel goes, Necrons are right there at the top, and the BA Dex seems to fit their modus operandi.

Idaan
26-07-2010, 18:52
And this is how you can write anything to make sense if you're good at writing. Sadly, Matt Ward isn't.

Honestly, would anyone have a problem with the Calgar-on-Avatar, Guilliman-as-spiritual-liege, introducing and destroying the World Engine in half a page etc etc if they were written logically and inspired in the reader feelings other than annoyiance?

Son of Sanguinius
26-07-2010, 19:05
Shamless plug of my own fiction (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250682)

It's my take on how the Avatar-Calgar fight would have gone with the same result

As Idaan suggests, it's not about the end result. It's about the execution.

Lupe
26-07-2010, 19:10
I don't know... I can't really blame Matt Ward - or anyone else, for that matter.

The Codex is simply supposed to give us a very brief description of who fought who, and who won. I always saw the famous battles as little ore than the equivalent of footnotes in a real history book,

Or at least, that's how it is for me.

I chose to interpret that 10 line paragraph in the BA dex this way. I read it, took note of what happened, gave it some thought, and filled in the details myself until I came up with a flow of events that made sense and I was happy with.

Of course fluff will seem sloppy and poorly written, but it's in part because some people actually enjoy filling in the blanks themselves (but mostly because a new edition 'dex is here mostly for the rules). I guess this is as much a part of the 40K magic as painting the minis, or coming up with names for them.

If GW would actually manage to write decent fluff in the 'dexes, I would be out of my skull with boredom once I read the stories, because there'd be nothing left to discuss on the forums.

Pandion40
26-07-2010, 19:22
Blood Angels have always followed the Codex, just with the Death Company as an ad hoc formation. The big deal with the Blood Drinkers was that they followed the Codex's dictates on Heraldry and were the only Successor to do so, they didn't employ an excess of assault troops and may or may not have had a Death Company. Basically they were the opposite to what they've been turned into now, instead of one of the most far gone chapters they were the closest to normal.



Isn't the second part of this statement just fan fiction though

Codex Angels of death states:


The blood Drinkers chapter is an exception to the others described here in that they are close adherents to the heraldic rules of the Codex. Their uniforms and markings are similar to those of the Ultramarines Chapter

This just states they use the Ultramarines markings, it says nothing about there temperament, combat doctrines or anything else at all.

There may be some other fluff somewhere else I have missed if so enlighten me. Otherwise you have just done what loads of people have done and taken a little known chapter, added your own fan fiction and now GW have expanded their fluff a little it contradicts yours, annoying yes but nobody's fault.

AstartesWarMachine
26-07-2010, 22:16
Wouldn't they? (cut for length) Lupe, if the fluff in the codex was as elegant, compelling and deep as your post was, it would be a lot more easy to swallow.

As far as I'm concerned what you just wrote should be appended to the story. In fact, from that perspective, it might even make a good novel or short story.

The way Ward writes the fluff is...I don't know, flat? Something about it just seems like he is a tourney noob making a cheap justification for an uncommon teamup.

Sgt John Keel
06-08-2010, 01:27
The section on Blood Angel Bikers is my pet peeve - apparently very few marines favour the bike as they prefer jump packs, which is fair enough, but suddenly those Marines who do favour the bike are second only to the Ravenwing in terms of skill in the saddle?


I've got a different peeve with the bikers. Fine, the Assault company prefers the jump pack over the bikes, but according to the Codex Astartes it's the 6th Tactical reserve company that usually fight mounted on bikes. As a nominally Codex Astartes chapter, if the Assault company really doesn't like bikes, why not let the guys supposed to have them, have them?

RunepriestRidcully
06-08-2010, 20:18
Lupe, if what you have written was in the codex, there would be no problem, the problem is ward he writes, how to be gentle here, like a half dead, drunk, drugged up stepheni meyer who only has one finger who has a brain damaged sloth as an editor, least with twilight it is big enough so you can give it to hobos to use as fire fuel.
Why can GW not hire people like you and Son of Sanguinius to write the fluff, the codexs would be worth their price tag then. Also what you wrote, something about just feels like the blood angels, maybe it is the poetry of it or the saddness that seems to fill it, I don't know.