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View Full Version : Is The deceiver the Laughing God AND the Machine God?



RunepriestRidcully
23-07-2010, 10:42
Basically 2 Necron players I know say that the Laughing god of the Eldar and the Machine God are saying both are mearly the deceiver in different guises.
Please tell me this is not true, I can take the Machine god being being the void dragon, but it seems you cannot sneeze in 40k without hitting a Space Marine or C'tan shoe horned in. So are they talking bull, or is this mearly the latest in a long line of Ward style retcons?

Sephiroth
23-07-2010, 10:45
My understanding is, the Deceiver masqueraded as the Laughing God during the War in Heaven, and vice versa if you read the Eldar myth of the "Outsider" so yes, he has pretended to be the Laughing God - but there is an actual Laughing God, and the two are not the same being.

The Deceiver is not the Machine God. Technically, neither is the Void Dragon, but that's a whole other debate.

Polaria
23-07-2010, 11:34
The Deceiver is not the Machine God. Technically, neither is the Void Dragon, but that's a whole other debate.

As long as Emperor isn't directly interfering, Void Dragon is for all intents and purposes the Machine God. kinda makes you wonder exactly why the Big Man Enthroned into a Xeno-artefact isn't directly interfering, doesn't it?

Sephiroth
23-07-2010, 11:41
As long as Emperor isn't directly interfering, Void Dragon is for all intents and purposes the Machine God. kinda makes you wonder exactly why the Big Man Enthroned into a Xeno-artefact isn't directly interfering, doesn't it?

The Machine God, at least according to everything I can recall reading on the subject, is the sum total of all (human) knowledge. This is why innovation isn't high on the AdMech's agenda - everything that will exist, already exists; it just needs to be recovered, and understood to reach "enlightenment".

The Emperor is regarded as the Omnissiah - because he is immortal and full of human knowledge, is is the closest being to the Machine God.

The Void-Dragon would only have a chance at presenting itself as the Omnissiah - and then only to Tech-priests who accept any knowledge, as most regard alien technology as an 'illusion', designed to tempt and delay the recovering of ancient human tech.

Kage2020
23-07-2010, 12:10
Yes, but that requires less shoe-horning and is thus the lesser option when it comes down to the 40k 'fluff.' If you cannot wangle the Old Ones or the C'tan into something then what's the point?

;)

Kage

Idaan
23-07-2010, 12:25
As long as Emperor isn't directly interfering, Void Dragon is for all intents and purposes the Machine God. kinda makes you wonder exactly why the Big Man Enthroned into a Xeno-artefact isn't directly interfering, doesn't it?

Not really. The Machine God is the imprint of all knowledge, current, past and future upon the Warp, the Book of Akasha that Koriel Zeth was trying to connect to. This potential is given shape and form by the worship of the AdMech who see it as the Machine God. What you can say, is that the Dragon might have inspired the cult and that it is worshipped by a part of the AdMech. In the world in which worship and emotion influence reality, creating a real Machine God and making the Lie of Mars become true, that's just not enough.


Same with the Deceiver really. Even if the Laughing God started as a hoax, the Deceiver has made him real by making the Eldar (and other races) worship him.

ashc
23-07-2010, 12:31
The C'Tan are very good at pretending to be the bigger boys...


...until the bigger boys turn up :)

Son of Sanguinius
23-07-2010, 18:27
Not really. The Machine God is the imprint of all knowledge, current, past and future upon the Warp, the Book of Akasha that Koriel Zeth was trying to connect to. This potential is given shape and form by the worship of the AdMech who see it as the Machine God. What you can say, is that the Dragon might have inspired the cult and that it is worshipped by a part of the AdMech. In the world in which worship and emotion influence reality, creating a real Machine God and making the Lie of Mars become true, that's just not enough.


Same with the Deceiver really. Even if the Laughing God started as a hoax, the Deceiver has made him real by making the Eldar (and other races) worship him.

I never thought about it that way. Very good point. :)

Scalebug
24-07-2010, 09:51
There is no Machine God, in the meaning of the Chaos Gods, Gork&Mork and (the dead) Eldar Gods; It is just how the superstitious Imperium interpret how technology works....

What people are missing about The Dragon (with or without "void" added to his name, I am a stern believer that this started out as a slip from the writer...) being the machine god is the literary device of the unreliable narrator, the guy telling the story is a mental patient...

Karl MkVI
24-07-2010, 12:57
(with or without "void" added to his name, I am a stern believer that this started out as a slip from the writer...)

no, they're both just different names that The Dragon has accrued over time.




What people are missing about The Dragon being the machine god is the literary device of the unreliable narrator, the guy telling the story is a mental patient...

true, but what can be confirmed is that the Dragon is there. which gives a pretty strong suggestion that at least some part of the AdMech worship it.

Kage2020
24-07-2010, 15:55
which gives a pretty strong suggestion that at least some part of the AdMech worship it.
Which is pretty much what the fans have been saying from the get-go. The idea that the Dragon is the unquestionable Machine God worshipped by all is far less interesting than having it as a cult or secret society within the Adeptus Mechanicus itself.

Well, IMO.

Kage

Inquisitor Engel
24-07-2010, 16:08
Same with the Deceiver really. Even if the Laughing God started as a hoax, the Deceiver has made him real by making the Eldar (and other races) worship him.

This is wrong.

Cergorach and all the other Eldar Gods were unequivocally stated as being Old Ones by a designer to me during a studio visit during my days as a play-tester. This is further supported by the wording in the Liber Chaotica series and the Daemons Codex.

(This lead to my thoughts on Ascention of the Old Ones to become "different" warp entities, found elsewhere on these fora.)

Furthermore, it takes AEONS for warp enter to coalesce into a being and since Cergorach actively fought in the War In Heaven it would have meant he'd been flaunting himself in front of the Eldar for a long, long time, which is something I can guarantee you the Old Ones, ascended or not, would not have stood for this.

Then you have the fact that when Eldar emotions DID coalesce into a Warp Entity, it was a Chaos God, sharing attributes and abilities with mankind's manifestations, and nothing like an Eldar God.

Lord Inquisitor
24-07-2010, 16:08
Another interesting theory is that the Old Ones became pure beings of warp energy and literally became the Eldar Gods. This gives a reason why the Eldar myths have their Gods walking with them whereas later they did appear to be Warp entities - before Slaanesh gobbled them up.

Therefore the Laughing God is the last surviving (or at least, whole and active) Old One in the galaxy.

In which case it is certainly a distinct entity.

Kage2020
24-07-2010, 16:24
I believe that's what Engel is getting at, Lord Inquisitor. I've never been a fan of that particular theory--designer commentary or otherwise--since it's yet another bit of unnecessary shoe-horning. (Although having Old Ones as ascended beings is another matter entirely, and one that has been frequently thrown around on the fan boards.)

Still, whatever twiddles your biscuit and all. :D

Kage

Lord Inquisitor
24-07-2010, 16:56
Ah Engel ninja'd me rather completely there...:shifty:

I quite like it because it's such a beautiful little retcon with background from the eighties. So many little details work so well, including the delicious irony that the Old Ones were eventually destroyed by the weapons they created to vanquish the C'Tan...

It's also nice because it isn't laid out in the background (beyond a hint in Xenology if I recall correctly?). It's a nice retcon that connects all of the rest of the necron retcons, all the more neat as I believe it originated as a fan idea rather than with the studio.

Kage2020
24-07-2010, 17:18
It's cool that you enjoy it, but as above I find it to be the unnecessary shoe-horn. That it can be wangled into position is fair enough, but it never really had to beyond introducing the new army list.

As always, though, opinions vary. I for one do not have the Old Ones as the Eldar Gods, but then again I don't have the Eldar gods capable of physical manifestation, viewing the mythology as just that: myth and legend. As such the investment in the "reality" of the mythology just strikes me as inelegant and, well, buying into itself.

Anyway, no worries. I rather like the idea that it is possible to generate different ideas about the 40k universe.

Kage

Lord Inquisitor
24-07-2010, 17:52
Fair enough and I think GW could go the route white wolf took with vampire the masquerade. They realized there was little mystery in the second ed background. So in the third, they made much more effort to make things much less certain, with more mythic stories and contradictory myths. GW have done this a little but things like the Horus heresy books have made things a lot less mysterious.

TheMav80
24-07-2010, 18:35
Fair enough and I think GW could go the route white wolf took with vampire the masquerade. They realized there was little mystery in the second ed background. So in the third, they made much more effort to make things much less certain, with more mythic stories and contradictory myths. GW have done this a little but things like the Horus heresy books have made things a lot less mysterious.

For the better in some cases, I think.

It is much better for me when the Primarchs and their Legions are shown to have well explained reasons for their fall. Instead of just "Hey, let's be bad guys!"

A Thousand Sons being a great example of this, I think. Legion as well, which certainly only served to add mystery.

Devastator
24-07-2010, 19:25
deceiver is actually Alpharius in disguise:shifty::wtf:

Kage2020
24-07-2010, 19:43
I'm not overtly familiar with the Vampire the Masquerade background, I'm afraid, but one thing that I'm fairly sure is that GW really don't have a problem with regards to making things certain. That's kind of the point and the reason that you end up with so many different interpretations of this or that feature of the 40k universe.

Sorry, though, this is familiar territory for many "old hats" with the 40k universe. There are those that want more mystery in the game setting, and there are others that feel that we've had quite enough mystery and crappy conspiracy theories (yes, I'm thinking about the stone tablet from Xenology as I type that! ;)) and it would be great to have some interesting "solid" information. I find myself in the latter camp since, as per the nature of the beast, I've already got a good idea of the former and now wish to be inspired by more of the latter.

Then again, but for one or two exceptions I cannot help but ask how much information the Horus Heresy novels have actually given us that might be considered "significant," rather than just expanded on what we already knew... I think that's an easier comment to shoot down, though.

Kage

Karl MkVI
24-07-2010, 20:31
Then again, but for one or two exceptions I cannot help but ask how much information the Horus Heresy novels have actually given us that might be considered "significant," rather than just expanded on what we already knew... I think that's an easier comment to shoot down, though.

Kage

well, it seems to depend on where one draws the line. there is new info; the Lectitio Divinitatus, the fact that Lorgar wrote it, the hinted 'true nature' of the primarchs (thinking of Magnus in A Thousand Sons in particular here), the Emperor possibly making pacts with dark powers, etc. these are more 'new info' than expansion. but I do see what you mean, and it's only natural; the HH books are based on what we already knew, after all, even if they do seem to have changed certain factors on the face of it.

Kage2020
24-07-2010, 21:41
And that's the reason that I'm suffering "burnout" with the 40k universe for various reasons. I'm just looking at the information that the Horus Heresy books are churning out and going, whether I regard them as good/fun or not, "Meh, it's just the same old stuff that the fans have been talking about for years." My brain seems to have given up with the idea of official information and now seems stuck with interesting information (obviously a personal definition there).

No worries, though. I wonder if there truly was an interesting and "new" story told about the 40k universe whether that would negate the burnout? Ah well...

Kage

Son of Sanguinius
24-07-2010, 23:33
And you must admit Kage, you've spent too long around smart people (including yourself) writing fan fiction and exploring possibilities. ;) Those of us who have not been so fortunate find the little tidbits tantalizing.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it was little tidbits like these that inspired you to wax creative. :D

Kage2020
25-07-2010, 00:18
In all fairness you might be right with regards to tid-bits and inspiration. I blame it on the burnout, as above. Still trying to find that thing that greatly re-inspires me about the setting, since otherwise at the moment it's a home-brew variation of Earthdawn/Shadowrun in the post-apoc future that is inspiring me (probably gaining a sigh of relief from some ;)).

Hmmmnnnn... The burnout does seem to wax and wane depending on the publication status of the FFG product range so, hmmmn, might be a trend there. :D

Anyway, I should probably go back to lurking. :shifty:

Kage

Inquisitor Engel
25-07-2010, 01:36
Then again, but for one or two exceptions I cannot help but ask how much information the Horus Heresy novels have actually given us that might be considered "significant," rather than just expanded on what we already knew....

Tis quite true, and not always for the better. :shifty: