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Clockwork-Knight
24-07-2010, 23:11
The cult of the machine god does revere the Emperor as the avatar of the machine god, and there are some other adeptus mechanicus members who do worship the emperor as the machine god himself or even put the machine god as the metaphysical lower avatar of the emperor in accordance with the teachings of the ecclessiarchy.
The name omnissiah seems to mean the all-knowledgable or every knowledge together in some form, which by the teachings of the machine priests would put it to the machine god himself, as he's revered as such.

That made me think that the omnissiah was the pig-latin title for the machine god.

Now, I did also read that it's the emperor was called the omnissiah, as that is the pig-latin title for the emperor amongst the machine priests, to signify his seemly vast knowledge.

So which of these two "entities" is then the omnissiah. Or is the omnissiah even another distinguished entity from the emperor and the machine god, forming some kind of holy trinity like in the christian religion which has a father, son and holy spirit?

Was perhaps omnissiah the pig-latin title for the dragon himself?

Or is omnissiah an inter-changeable name for either the machine god and the emperor as however the people want to use it?

Son of Sanguinius
24-07-2010, 23:17
I was under the impression that the Omnissiah (which is mesh of the title omniscient messiah) was dependent on the factions within the Mechanicus. The Emperor is publicly acknowledged as the Omnissiah, mostly for political reasons. But the Cult of the Dragon, a faction within the Mechanicus, sees the Void Dragon as the Omnissiah. Others believe in it more abstractly, as kind of a state of logical perfection as much as a god-like entity. And I would assume that more than a few actually do see the Emperor as the Omnissiah.

N0-1_H3r3
24-07-2010, 23:50
The cult of the machine god does revere the Emperor as the avatar of the machine god, and there are some other adeptus mechanicus members who do worship the emperor as the machine god himself or even put the machine god as the metaphysical lower avatar of the emperor in accordance with the teachings of the ecclessiarchy.
The name omnissiah seems to mean the all-knowledgable or every knowledge together in some form, which by the teachings of the machine priests would put it to the machine god himself, as he's revered as such.

That made me think that the omnissiah was the pig-latin title for the machine god.

Now, I did also read that it's the emperor was called the omnissiah, as that is the pig-latin title for the emperor amongst the machine priests, to signify his seemly vast knowledge.

So which of these two "entities" is then the omnissiah. Or is the omnissiah even another distinguished entity from the emperor and the machine god, forming some kind of holy trinity like in the christian religion which has a father, son and holy spirit?

Was perhaps omnissiah the pig-latin title for the dragon himself?

Or is omnissiah an inter-changeable name for either the machine god and the emperor as however the people want to use it?
It's a matter of religion, and consequently varies based on who you're asking. Some will see the Omnissiah and the Emperor being the same thing, others see the Omnissiah as synonymous with the Machine God, and others still will view all three as distinct entities... and that's before any stranger interpretations are considered.

In short, the answer is any of those you've posted, and more besides... depending on the particular beliefs of a given Tech-Priest.

FarseerSinian
25-07-2010, 00:35
Titanicus mentioned how within the Mechanicum there are increasing divides on the Emperor's aspect as the Omnisiah. While the majority currently revere the Emperor as the Machine God, there are a growing number who view them as separate beings. These followers call those who worship the Emperor the "New Way", since before the unification Mars did not recognize the Emperor. So it is my opinion that few within the Mechanicum would deny the Emperor's divinity, there are disagreements on if he is there god.

I personally believe that the Emperor is the Omnisiah, because he has an utter mastery of the technology used by Man. Doing things the Mechanicum only dreams of. (Creation of Primarchs, Space Marines, [Failed]Web-Way gate....)

What I am confused on is WHY there would be a faction of the Mechanicum worshiping the Void Dragon(or The Dragon) when it would be the pinnacle of ALIEN tech.

Kage2020
25-07-2010, 03:11
So which of these two "entities" is then the omnissiah.
Both. And none.

I'm probably just not overtly bothered by the complexities that people place on the situation, working from the simple "truth" (as I see it) and leaving the rest to the kind of crack-pot crazy that I associate with, well, humans. Maybe a bit more with the humans of the 40k universe, insofar as they might be considered human in the more familiar sense.

Anyway, for me the Emperor is the Omnissiah, the avatar of the Machine God that is invested with the "holy spirit" of singular knowledge. They're two distinct things, but related.

Problem is that humans are fallible and crazy. Thus, some view the physical entity as not just invested with the spiritual, but actually the source of that spiritual. Ergo, to some members of the Adeptus Mechanicus the Emperor is the Machine God.

Like I said, crazy.

The thing about crazy is that it generates more crazy. Some more crazies may have stumbled across the Dragon imprisoned under Mars. Oooh! Oooh! Dreams of technology and advances. Obviously, this is the Omnissiah and that one over there--silly Emperor figure--is a lie! Heresy! Burn the duck!

Aardvark!

Err, yeah. Moving swiftly onwards.


Or is the omnissiah even another distinguished entity from the emperor and the machine god, forming some kind of holy trinity like in the christian religion which has a father, son and holy spirit?
I'm sure that there are some people who believe that too. It's a funny thing that, belief.


Or is omnissiah an inter-changeable name for either the machine god and the emperor as however the people want to use it?
I'm sure that there are numerous people that don't even want to bother with the theology and so might do this as well.

Of course, it's all twoddle. The Emperor is just the Emperor. He's not the avatar of the Machine God, but he capitalised upon it because it gave him control of what would become the Adeptus Mechanicus. There might not even be a Machine God--it might just be a concept.

This is one of the reasons that I originally called them the "philosophies" of the Adeptus Mechanicus (something that was subsequently added to in rather cool ways by other people). It's all about how you view things, and in that case they're viewing their believes through the filter of technology. The specific coupling of politics and philosophy--paradigm (this is one of the cool things I mentioned!)--begins to shape your world view, your perception on just what this or that bit of information might mean.

Er, but anyway. I digress.

Platypus!

And with that, I shall disappear of to other realms... :D

Kage

Ordo Hydra
25-07-2010, 11:44
What I am confused on is WHY there would be a faction of the Mechanicum worshiping the Void Dragon(or The Dragon) when it would be the pinnacle of ALIEN tech.

Well its shown that not all the Adeptus Mechanicus is against using alien tech. I recall the Inquisitor game had the Tech-Priest Tesla studying Fra'al power generation technology. Its frowned upon but doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

Plus, I think Mechanium hints that the Void Dragon was used to develop the tech base of the Adeptus Mechanicus. At least, that was my understanding... been a while since I finished the book.

Scalebug
25-07-2010, 21:09
The waters are certainly muddied by there being a lot of writers not sticking to the same concepts, but, yeah, if you want to explain it (rather than interweb whine about how GW don't care about their background), there being several sub-sects of the Machine Cult is a good explanation.

When the titel Omissiah first appeared, it was as the AM's name for The Emperor, as in the guy who knew so much about old tech that he must have a special bond to the Machine God, but not 'being' the god itself.

As for worshipping the Dragon, that cult pre-dated the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Machine God by thousands of years, as noted in Codex:Necrons (even if it is fuzzied by the standard "It is whispered..." kind of caveat).

Think original colonists of Mars finding the resting place of the creature, and setting up some devices to keep it asleep and possibly drain power from it, as hinted by the madmans tale in C:N, and the fact that it has not waken up yet and the Necrons tried and failed, some kind of rescue mission to Mars recently (BFG Necron articles).

Then as civilisation on Mars fell during the age of strife, the knowledge of the sleeping alien fell down into mysticism, and when the survivors battling mutants and barbarians slowly turned into the Machine Cult, elements that knew of it was absorbed into said cult, kept their old knowledge, now turned faith, but kept it secret.

My take on it, based on what scraps is available.

sebold
31-07-2010, 03:54
The cult of the machine god does revere the Emperor as the avatar of the machine god, and there are some other adeptus mechanicus members who do worship the emperor as the machine god himself or even put the machine god as the metaphysical lower avatar of the emperor in accordance with the teachings of the ecclessiarchy.
The name omnissiah seems to mean the all-knowledgable or every knowledge together in some form, which by the teachings of the machine priests would put it to the machine god himself, as he's revered as such.

That made me think that the omnissiah was the pig-latin title for the machine god.

Now, I did also read that it's the emperor was called the omnissiah, as that is the pig-latin title for the emperor amongst the machine priests, to signify his seemly vast knowledge.

So which of these two "entities" is then the omnissiah. Or is the omnissiah even another distinguished entity from the emperor and the machine god, forming some kind of holy trinity like in the christian religion which has a father, son and holy spirit?

Was perhaps omnissiah the pig-latin title for the dragon himself?

Or is omnissiah an inter-changeable name for either the machine god and the emperor as however the people want to use it?

the the big O is the ctan dragon imprisoned by the big E in mars(vaul moon)
the dragon later sends visions to the techpriests of mars of technology ans sjips ging the imperium the resources to rule the stars, only very very very few know that the dragon is the true omnissiah few even know wat the ctan are, bt soon, they will, the emperors wont be aroung to make xur a machine god is chained forever......... the mechanu high lord of terra probably knows the dragon is there. my 3 cents:evilgrin:

Lupe
31-07-2010, 10:56
Everything is ambiguous in 40K.

It could actually apply to both these entities, and more. There is a rather strict core of religious ideas that make up the essence of religions (the Imperial Cult, the cult of the Omnissiah). But in a galaxy spanning empire, where interstellar travel goes through the Warp, it's almost impossible to enforce the same teachings everywhere.

And even more so in the case of the Adeptus Mechanicus, which is made up of various factions in itself.

kardar233
31-07-2010, 11:04
This was dealt with in Titanicus, in which one faction claims to have proof that the Emperor and the Omnissiah are two separate entities, and it causes a civil war between the two Mechanicus factions. Don't remember how it resolves though.

baphomael
31-07-2010, 13:41
A good way to conceptualise the relationship between the Machine God and the Emperor/Omnissiah is to compare it to beliefs in Jesus prior to the Council of Nicaea.

Just as the early Church had its debates over the nature of Christ (ie, between the trinitarian beliefs of God and Jesus being one in the same, or the Arian 'heresy' of Jesus as a mortal man, not a God). Thr same holds true in the Machine Cult - debates as to whether the Emperor is the Omnissiah, the physical avatar of the Machine God, or whether he is merely a man blessed by the Machine God.

What most Machine Cult members (aside from the various forms of Heretek) will agree on is that the Emperor is special. They show fealty to Terra because the Emperor is closest to, if not the, pinnacle of all human knowledge. To the machine cult knowledge is divine, and they believe that all knowledge already exists - it merely has to be rediscovered. The Emperor, seemingly omniscient, was the purest representation of this tenet of faith (although, not that omniscient, didnt see Horus' boot coming when he got curb-stomped...not so omniscient now are ya ;))


Everything is ambiguous in 40K.

It could actually apply to both these entities, and more. There is a rather strict core of religious ideas that make up the essence of religions (the Imperial Cult, the cult of the Omnissiah). But in a galaxy spanning empire, where interstellar travel goes through the Warp, it's almost impossible to enforce the same teachings everywhere.

And even more so in the case of the Adeptus Mechanicus, which is made up of various factions in itself.


Of course, for the Imperial Cult, its in their interests to be somewhat lax and loose on the subject (indeed, the Imperial Cult is hardly one unified faith, but a collection of various cults - some big, some small). As long as the central idea of the 'Emperor as Divine' is there, the Ministorum is fine with it. It doesnt matter if Throg the Barbarian one some backward pre-feudal world is worshipping the Emperor as the 'Great Sky Father' or whatever...as long as its recognisably the Emperor.

Although, it does make for some awkward moments when those New Religious Movements turn out to be Genestealer cults and their vision of the 'Emperor' was actually a Hive Fleet.

Easy E
02-08-2010, 17:54
The Ad-Mech are just as screwed up as the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy, factionally speaking.

That's what makes the whole thing fun!