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Purplepride
25-07-2010, 17:49
Has it been expained anywhere if the C'tan Phase swords used by the Callidus Assassins are weapons looted from from the necrons - (I don't recollect any mention of swords being used by the necrons).

Or are they are made by AdMechs capable of working the Necrodermis of warscythes, ect. into new shapes - (but isn't it living metal able to heal itself, thus returning to its former shape?)

Or has the imperium somehow access to unused Necrodermis?

Or is this another one of the things left unexplained by GW?

Iuris
25-07-2010, 18:53
Details are scarce. However, what we do know is:
-the callidus assassins have been carrying them around for far far longer than the Necrons have existed in GW. In terms of actual idea development, it's reasonable to assume the C'tan are named after the swords rather than the other way around.
-the source is not named, but I seem to remember it's implied they are artifacts that have been found
-a short story shows a Callidus assassin attacking a C'tan in the disguise of a planetary governor. The C'tan calmly absorbs the blade, saying "It's nice when one's children return" and then comments that polymorphine adds an interesting flavor to the assasins, so the assasin is presumably then eaten.

So, I assume the blades are simply weapons the Imperium found somewhere, maybe Mars.

Necanthrope
25-07-2010, 20:35
Cypher also used to carry a c'tan phase knife, but this was lost fighting the deceiver iirc.

I personally think they are made from salvaged necrodermis.

Stonerhino
25-07-2010, 20:47
The first C'Tan reference was in Codex Imperialis iIrc. But they where not given any more info untill the C'Tan phase sword and Cypher's phase knife. Then the info given in the Necon codex.

With very little information on them we have a few "Knowns". For one, they function simular to a warscythe but not as powerful. Per the 40k rules for them. And two, that they are C'Tan/Necron in origin. The Deciever's reaction when he see one in the short in the "Shadow Games" section of the Necron codex. Lastly third, they have the C'Tan name on them.

This leaves us with only a few ways that they have come to exist.
1: They are inactive Necron weapons salvaged from an inactive Tomb.
2: They were inactive and the Admech has found some way to power them with some limits.
3: The Deciever, has his hand somehow into the Callidus Temple and helped create the blades. His ego could not help but call it a C'Tan phase sword.

Personaly I would go with option three. The wording in the short story can be read as "One's children come home" as the assassin. And the "When they bring gifts" can be the sword. He also knew about the Polymorphine the assassin had used. While I can see the same text saying the sword is the child and the polymorphine filled assassin the gift. It seems odd as the sword could not have brought the "Gift".

There is also some dealing between Ralei and a Callidus assassin in Xenology.

Lionsprey
26-07-2010, 11:45
Ain't it possible the void dragon had a hand in whatever event led to them having c'tan phase swords?

Stonerhino
26-07-2010, 23:07
Not really as it would mean that someone in the Admech had a dream and created living metal. Which would have quikly spead though the admech. Since the Admech needs a starship to power a Guass Flayer type weapon, them having the ability to create something like self-contained living metal is not likely.

Think about it this way. You a techpriest and invent a metal that repairs itself. Would your first idea be "Lets make a sword out of it"???

MagosHereticus
27-07-2010, 12:10
Not really as it would mean that someone in the Admech had a dream and created living metal. Which would have quikly spead though the admech. Since the Admech needs a starship to power a Guass Flayer type weapon, them having the ability to create something like self-contained living metal is not likely.

Think about it this way. You a techpriest and invent a metal that repairs itself. Would your first idea be "Lets make a sword out of it"???


errr, source?

Stonerhino
27-07-2010, 13:51
Which part???

Iuris
27-07-2010, 17:37
I think Stonerhino is just explaining why he thinks that it's unlikely that the Void dragon "had a hand in whatever event lead to" humanity getting the things.

While revisiting the subject, I'd just like to point out that artwork shows the sword not as a held sword, but as a blade protruding from a wrist mounted device. So, possibly, the blades are not even originally meant to be a weapon or a whole weapon.

Also, I'd point out that in Nightbringer novel, we have a small village that had been making weapons from living metal without advanced technology OR knowing what the stuff is. It's just a very tough metal for them. However, the blades are not implied to be anything super performing, just made from a quality metal that repairs itself.

Icarus
28-07-2010, 08:15
I like the idea that the Deceiver has had a hand in it, perhaps even breaking off pieces of his own Necrodermis. For all we know it's more than just a cool material, perhaps it maintains a kind of sentience, in the same way the Vorlons in Babylon 5 could break off pieces of their consciousness. If he did that and then allowed the Imperium's best assassins (and other legendary figures like Cypher) to wield the blades, he'd know everything that the blade had 'witnessed' when the blade was eventually 'returned' to his body (as has happened at least twice). Perhaps it's a brilliant spying technique, as part of the long game being played.

Polaria
28-07-2010, 16:08
Codex: Necrons p.62 - Tomb Raid:

"Mission Objective

The attacker is trying to capture an artefact from the heart of a Necron Tomb. This might be a C'Tan phase sword, a stasis control device, or anything else you can imagine a raider force attempting to steal."

Seems like a pretty strong indication that C'Tan phase swords were originally found from Necrontyr ruins.

massey
28-07-2010, 16:56
One of the old books, I don't remember where, mentions that C'Tan phase swords were produced by an evil ancient race. It doesn't get more specific than that (as GW hadn't even invented the C'Tan yet, they just had the name and knew they were bad guys). I would imagine the things are relics of some ancient war, discovered and modified by the Imperium to give to their assassins. The things can't be too rare, as pretty much every Callidus Assassin has one (and over the entire galaxy, there are probably hundreds of thousands of Callidus Assassins).

Icarus
28-07-2010, 19:51
Well to be fair, I don't think every Callidus Assassin has one, it's just the signature weapon for the temple. The Inquisitor article on the Callidus specified she could use poisoned knives and other blades. I also think they're rare in the sense of galaxy-wide rare, which can still mean a few hundred or even a thousand given that only one small institution in the entire Imperium has a monopoly on them.

Malice313
29-07-2010, 06:08
I think that given the Temple Culexus make their assassins into Pariahs, I'd have no problem with them making Phase Swords.

I'm sure there would be parts of the Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy and even parts of the Ad Mech who would get very upset about this. Are they going to push around an Assassin Temple though?

Paul Nexus
29-07-2010, 06:37
They don't so much make assassins into Pariahs, more individuals selected already have the Pariah gene, a lack of warp presence that, unbeknownst to them, was implanted in humanity by said evil ancient race....

Polaria
29-07-2010, 07:32
They don't so much make assassins into Pariahs, more individuals selected already have the Pariah gene, a lack of warp presence that, unbeknownst to them, was implanted in humanity by said evil ancient race....

Yup, this has already been established to be the case. Pariahs are not made, but born. The Officio Assassinorum and Inquisition actually has to search for them (ref. Codex: Witch Hunters). Also, Pariah-gene is not "natural" to humans, but an ancient Necron/C'tan plot set into motion at the very start of humanity (ref. Codex: Necrons).

By the way, the Necron Codex (and Xenology) also strongly implies that the original C'tan plan was to help humans breed, take over the galaxy and kill off all the nasty "competition" like Eldars so that C'tan have a new "herd" to feed from when they wake up.

Its not like Necrons/C'tan are behind "everything" (they don't have much to do with Ork, Eldar, 'Nids, Chaos etc.), but they do play a strong part in how and why Imperium came to be.

Malice313
29-07-2010, 09:48
Interesting. Where can I find out more about the creation Culexus assassins?

Stonerhino
29-07-2010, 13:56
Codex Assassins if you can find it.

AndrewGPaul
29-07-2010, 14:00
The 2nd edition one, not the little 3rd edition pamphlet. It's hard to tell the difference, since they use the same cover art.

Malice313
29-07-2010, 14:26
The 2nd edition one, not the little 3rd edition pamphlet. It's hard to tell the difference, since they use the same cover art.

I don't have that book and I'm having trouble finding a download for it. Could you put the text on here please?

AndrewGPaul
29-07-2010, 20:28
No; dubious legality notwithstanding, it's a lot to type out, even if I could get to my copy easily.

There are two copies on Ebay UK ( http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Warhammer-40K-Codex-Assassins-Rare-/250671679806?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item3a5d32493e is one). Both are listed as posting to the UK only, but you could always ask. Note the style of the title, and the lack of a border. That's the one you're after.

Malice313
30-07-2010, 03:29
No; dubious legality notwithstanding, it's a lot to type out, even if I could get to my copy easily.

There are two copies on Ebay UK ( http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Warhammer-40K-Codex-Assassins-Rare-/250671679806?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item3a5d32493e is one). Both are listed as posting to the UK only, but you could always ask. Note the style of the title, and the lack of a border. That's the one you're after.

Cheers. I'm in contact with the seller now.

Lord Damocles
02-08-2010, 10:03
Has it been expained anywhere if the C'tan Phase swords used by the Callidus Assassins are weapons looted from from the necrons - (I don't recollect any mention of swords being used by the necrons).
Indeed it has:


As well as the destruction of aliens, the Deathwatch are also charged with the recovery and study of alien artefacts and technology.
/
Occasionally it becomes necessary to use the technology of alien races and, though such an undertaking is never entered into lightly, its use against aliens themselves is a pleasing irony. The Adeptus Mechanicus is always eager to profit from the Deathwatch's victories and the* C'tan phase sword employed by the Callidus temple of assassins, was recovered by members of the Deathwatch from a long-dead Necrontyr world.
'Index Astartes: Purge the Unclean' in White Dwarf 259, pg.83

C'TAN PHASE SWORD: The Phase Sword was found on one of the long dead worlds of the C'tan. Excavations by the Adeptus Mechanicus uncovered numerous artefacts of extremely advanced technology, but of their makers, the enigmatic C'tan, there was no evidence.
Codex: Assassins (2nd ed.), pg.14

The attacker is trying to capture an artefact from the heart of a Necron Tomb. This might be a C'Tan phase sword, a stasis control device, or anything else you can imagine a raider force attempting to steal.
Codex: Necrons, pg.62
(Already quoted by Polaria)

C'Tan Phase Sword: Made from a fragment of the Living Metal that encases the god-like alien C'tan, the phase sword exists neither in the real universe, not wholly in the Warp, but in a dimension of its own. This allows it to pass through the strongest barrier, bypassing armour and even forcefields.
Thorian Sourcebook, pg.31


The Callidus models might well be considered evidence that the weapons have been tampered with in some way - mounting them, and provideing a power supply for example. This would also neatly explain any difference between the capabilities of Warscythes/Phase Swords/Knives and the weapons made from the hull of the Bringer of Darkness in Nightbringer. Alternatively, the hulls of Necron ships and the bodies of various Necron constructs may be made from a different form of Necrodermis to the bodies of the C'tan and phase-weapons.


*Phase Swords are often refered to as being singular (Codex: Assassins (2nd ed.) and Codex: Necrons both use 'a' rather than 'the' though)- however we know that there must be more than one such weapon as the weapon in this instance was recovered by the Deathwatch, while the weapon in Codex: Assassins (2nd ed.) is implyed to have been uncovered by the Ad Mech directly (pg.14). Plus, the Deciever has absorbed at least two of the blades (Codex: Necrons, pg.8 and 'Heroes and Villains: Cypher' in White Dwarf 281, pg.106). Plus Asaid Virenus' weapon (Thorian Sourcebook) is distinctly different from that carried by other Callidus (models; Codex: Assassins (2nd ed.), pg.12)

Iuris
02-08-2010, 11:36
C'Tan Phase Sword: Made from a fragment of the Living Metal that encases the god-like alien C'tan, the phase sword exists neither in the real universe, not wholly in the Warp, but in a dimension of its own. This allows it to pass through the strongest barrier, bypassing armour and even forcefields.
Thorian Sourcebook, pg.31

Y'know, this always had me wondering - while it explains how the blade bypasses armor and defenses, it never explains how exactly the blade then HITS the target's flesh :)

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 11:42
Y'know, this always had me wondering - while it explains how the blade bypasses armor and defenses, it never explains how exactly the blade then HITS the target's flesh :)

I would presume the blade phases back into reality or at least the leading edge of it does. How it should know when to do so of course isn't known. Since the "living metal" of Necrons is pretty much super science it may be capable of things far beyond just being a simple blade. We know living metal is molded into bodies for the C'tan and these bodies can at times have flowing bits that might resemble cloth. So it must somehow be receptive to input from the C'tan on how to behave and respond. Therefore a blade might for example somehow read the intent of the wielder and therefore phase back to strike the intended target or to deflect/parry enemy blows.

Iuris
02-08-2010, 11:59
I was being rhetorical there, Iracundus :) The cooler GW tries to get, the more explaining must be done, eh?

Still, Eversor was always my preferred assasin. The Callidus just gets one of the coolest terms of all GW materials - Neural shredder. I love that term, almost as much as Web of skulls. One of those that got me into 40k in the first place.

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 12:05
I was being rhetorical there, Iracundus :) The cooler GW tries to get, the more explaining must be done, eh?

Still, Eversor was always my preferred assasin. The Callidus just gets one of the coolest terms of all GW materials - Neural shredder. I love that term, almost as much as Web of skulls. One of those that got me into 40k in the first place.

The Neural Shredder never struck me as a very useful weapon when so many 40K figures have high Ld. It's only really suitable for picking off grunts, but then so are many other weapons.

Malice313
02-08-2010, 12:19
I would presume the blade phases back into reality or at least the leading edge of it does. How it should know when to do so of course isn't known. Since the "living metal" of Necrons is pretty much super science it may be capable of things far beyond just being a simple blade. We know living metal is molded into bodies for the C'tan and these bodies can at times have flowing bits that might resemble cloth. So it must somehow be receptive to input from the C'tan on how to behave and respond. Therefore a blade might for example somehow read the intent of the wielder and therefore phase back to strike the intended target or to deflect/parry enemy blows.

From memory the C'tan Phase Sword "phases" in and out of the warp, though the location fo the supporting fluff eludes me at the moment.

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 12:23
From memory the C'tan Phase Sword "phases" in and out of the warp, though the location fo the supporting fluff eludes me at the moment.

It doesn't phase in or out of the warp. The Necrons and before them the Necrontyr were based on material science, not warp magics. The only known interaction thus far of Necron science with the warp is in the C'tan's "Great WorK", i.e. the great network of monolithic structures meant to ultimately separate a portion of the galaxy from the warp, and even that is more acting as a ward against the warp rather than actually utilizing it.

Iuris
02-08-2010, 12:36
The Neural Shredder never struck me as a very useful weapon when so many 40K figures have high Ld. It's only really suitable for picking off grunts, but then so are many other weapons.

No no no, as a term alone. My first contacts with 40k were on the net, and, well... "They have stuff called Web of skulls and Neural shredder in that game? OK, let's see what this is all about..."

Malice313
02-08-2010, 12:42
It doesn't phase in or out of the warp. The Necrons and before them the Necrontyr were based on material science, not warp magics. The only known interaction thus far of Necron science with the warp is in the C'tan's "Great WorK", i.e. the great network of monolithic structures meant to ultimately separate a portion of the galaxy from the warp, and even that is more acting as a ward against the warp rather than actually utilizing it.

The fluff I'm thinking of was written when Necrons were "Chaos Androids" and the Necrotyr had never been mentioned.

Born Again
02-08-2010, 12:57
Y'know, this always had me wondering - while it explains how the blade bypasses armor and defenses, it never explains how exactly the blade then HITS the target's flesh :)

The description for Cypher's C'Tan Phase Knife in the 2nd edition Chaos codex says it "can phase in and out of real space by molecular realignment, so it is capable of bypassing armour and protective shields". As I understand it, it basically flashes back and forth between our galaxy and wherever else it goes really really quickly, basically allowing to both interact with our environment (ie; cut flesh) while ignoring it as well (ie; passing through armour).

Lord Damocles
02-08-2010, 13:14
The fluff I'm thinking of was written when Necrons were "Chaos Androids" and the Necrotyr had never been mentioned.
The Necrons/Necrontyr/C'tan have never been linked in any way to Chaos Androids.


(Other than both being the evil undead robots from outer space of course)

Silenius
03-08-2010, 15:02
Yup, this has already been established to be the case. Pariahs are not made, but born. The Officio Assassinorum and Inquisition actually has to search for them (ref. Codex: Witch Hunters). Also, Pariah-gene is not "natural" to humans, but an ancient Necron/C'tan plot set into motion at the very start of humanity (ref. Codex: Necrons).


Well, post might contain spoilers from the new Horus Heresy book Nemesis, not huge ones but still..

In the HH book Nemesis the Culexus female(pictured on the front covers) is actually vatgrown and thus a bioengineered pariah clone created by the Culexus Temple. Even if this is a new way(probably ruining some of the fanboy/girls day) of treating the Culexus I thought it would be prudent to mention it.

Iuris
03-08-2010, 18:19
Vat grown? And there I was thinking the Imperium would use the more natural way of gathering all blanks together, and then forcing them to interbreed to produce as many new blanks as possible. It would make for such wonderful stories...

(happy version: "You ask me why I fight with all my being for the Emperor? From birth I was ostracized, alone and unwanted! My own mother rejected me, her own daughter, unable to stand to be near me! Alone, in the gutters I starved and stole until the Inquisitor found me and brought me here! Here, among my own! Where people cast no dirty glances my way, where I finally found a man who could caress me without flinching! Where I found a warm and welcoming home, for me and my children! For the man who saved me, I'll face fire , psyker and demon! I never had a life until he gave me one, and he has but to ask and I will repay it twice over!")

(Unhappy version: NSFW, but would probably make some great hentai... :) )

massey
03-08-2010, 20:28
Vat grown? And there I was thinking the Imperium would use the more natural way of gathering all blanks together, and then forcing them to interbreed to produce as many new blanks as possible. It would make for such wonderful stories...

(happy version: "You ask me why I fight with all my being for the Emperor? From birth I was ostracized, alone and unwanted! My own mother rejected me, her own daughter, unable to stand to be near me! Alone, in the gutters I starved and stole until the Inquisitor found me and brought me here! Here, among my own! Where people cast no dirty glances my way, where I finally found a man who could caress me without flinching! Where I found a warm and welcoming home, for me and my children! For the man who saved me, I'll face fire , psyker and demon! I never had a life until he gave me one, and he has but to ask and I will repay it twice over!")

(Unhappy version: NSFW, but would probably make some great hentai... :) )


Inquisitor: "Alright, mutie. Your job is to bone all these chicks!"
Filthy mutie: "Yes sir!"

Iuris
03-08-2010, 20:37
Yes, Hentai ensues.