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DarthMcBob
26-07-2010, 02:30
The Emperor wanted generals to lead his armies to conquer the galaxy. 20 is absolutely nothing on a galactic scale. Even if each could conquer 1,000 worlds per year, it would take centuries to get even close to the goal. Why not make hundreds?

Hellebore
26-07-2010, 02:32
Due the Conservation of Ninjitsu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu?from=Main.InverseNinjaLaw).

Hellebore

Garven Dreis
26-07-2010, 02:34
Why is there only one Emperor of Mankind? One Emperor of Mankind is absolutely nothing on a galactic scale. Why not make hundreds of Emperors so they can conquer thousands of galaxies.

fenrisnorth
26-07-2010, 02:35
Due the Conservation of Ninjitsu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu?from=Main.InverseNinjaLaw).

Hellebore

/sigged

They were his masterpieces, they took him ages to create and he spun the genome of each virtually by hand, they wouldn't have been as awesome if they had been mass produced, the space marines were mass produced, and while good, they were not primarchs

Ramius4
26-07-2010, 02:37
Due the Conservation of Ninjitsu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu?from=Main.InverseNinjaLaw).

Hellebore

Hands down. Thread winner:p And only 2 posts in.

Balgora
26-07-2010, 02:44
because that's how many fingers and toes the average writer has at his disposal to count with?!

Hellebore
26-07-2010, 02:47
because that's how many fingers and toes the average writer has at his disposal to count with?!

I think this one's pretty good too.:p

Hellebore

Lord Malice
26-07-2010, 02:56
In the Realm of Chaos books (Lost and the Damned as I recall) the Emperor's plans are explained in some detail. The Primarchs were really just the first step in a much grander plan, they were a test of sorts. The Primarchs were designed, or they were supposed to be anyway, beings capable of allowing the pure, uncorrupted warp to flow through them in the same way as the Emperor.

Assuming the original twenty were a success the Emperor's plan was to then create an entire new race of super-beings. It isn't clear however from the background if this new race of super-humans were supposed to protect mankind or replace it. As we know however the original twenty were spirited away by the Chaos Powers and what genetic material that was left over from them was used to create the uniqe implants used to create the Space Marines.

Balgora
26-07-2010, 03:13
I think this one's pretty good too.:p

Hellebore

thankyou sir ^^

anyway wern't the primarchs supposed to be the leaders? 20 primarchs+20 legions covered a big chunk o' the galaxy, 20 seems like a pretty good number

Son of Sanguinius
26-07-2010, 06:01
The implication from various sources, the most direct being False Gods, is that there is something unique/special in the creation of a Primarch that limits the amount that can be made. Theories abound as to what the secret ingredients may be. Some think they are the souls of dead Old Ones or Eldar Gods. Some think the Emperor sacrificed a grand portion of his own power to make them (see Philip S's fantastic fan work). Some think that the Emperor cradled massive amounts of warp energy and created the souls of the Primarchs. You should ponder it and come up with your own conclusions. Intelligent conjecture is always fun. :)

808thMyrmidons
26-07-2010, 08:13
Why not make hundreds?

because the galaxy couldn't handle THAT family reunion of steroid junkie superhumans.

N0-1_H3r3
26-07-2010, 08:57
The way I've sometimes imagined it was that the 20 were his prototypes, the original designs of individually created lifeforms built gene by gene from scratch.

Had they succeeded as planned, the Emperor may have made more... but they were scattered, and all the Emperor had remaining were scraps with which he build the Astartes...

Temmy
26-07-2010, 12:26
From my understanding of the Horus Heresy series, I believe the Primarchs are a kind of controlled chaos mutant. The Emperor managed somehow to sequester a portion of the warps energy. This may have involved a bargain with the chaos powers. He used this energy on specially engineered bodies which incorporated the emperors own genetic material. There was only enough of this energy to create the original Primarchs, and the Emperor had no way to get more of it.

In the RT era, according to the Realm of Chaos books the Primarchs were a pilot project to create a new species of human that was immune to chaos. (Which makes one wonder what the emperor intended to do with the rest of humanity. I always thought this bit of fluff was badly thought out)

Balgora
26-07-2010, 12:57
well if they were a whole race wouldn't the answer be to make them leaders and police of the people who were susceptible to corruption so that they could be watched over?

Lt.DustyMillar
26-07-2010, 13:33
my theory is that the emperor set out to create 10 figure heads to lead his empire, not necessarily the cruside but more the aftermath. But made a back up for each one as he had always planned to scatter them to act as insentives to the Marines, and some may have gotten lost/killed before he got to them.

ie
Gulliman/ the Lion= tactical planning and organising
Leman/ Angron = policing the legions

this can be applied to all the Primarchs in some way, and he had ten roles in mind at the start. It also explains why he was a bit of a f%&k with some of them as they were supplus to his plans. when i actually managed to find them all.

Malice313
26-07-2010, 13:43
...it would take centuries to get even close to the goal...

Its one way to fill the tedium of immortality I guess.

There is also the problem that going in a wiping out an army does not automatically subjugate an entire population to your will. Otherwise blasting the crap out of a country and throwing a few voting booths amongst the smoking debris and corpses would be all you'd need to enforce democracy on the heathen scum of the world.

The reality is that you need decades, even centuries of occupation and indoctrination to truly unify conquered areas. So a slow methodical approach that allows you to consolidate military gains might be a plausible explanation for the arbitrary, hap-hazard fluff.

Shovah
26-07-2010, 15:02
Due the Conservation of Ninjitsu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu?from=Main.InverseNinjaLaw).

Hellebore

Unless your Orochimaru...

Anyways, having more than twenty Primarchs would stray off of the importance of each and not only that it would get confusing trying to remember all of their names, their associated Legions, etc.

Lupe
26-07-2010, 16:02
In the RT era, according to the Realm of Chaos books the Primarchs were a pilot project to create a new species of human that was immune to chaos. (Which makes one wonder what the emperor intended to do with the rest of humanity. I always thought this bit of fluff was badly thought out)

I wonder how that experiment ever turned out...

ChaosTicket
26-07-2010, 16:29
The primarchs werent created as new humanity, as they dont have breeding to make a new race, they are for the most part the closest thing aside from the Emperor to be gods, as they dont have cellular degeneration due to age, have physical characterics far above humans, but are probably as sterile as the astartes.

The legends of the immortal Primarchs are possible because they dont actually die due to age. The chaos primarchs became daemon kings, but the loyalist are unless killed, still alive...somewhere.

The 20 was for one a good number, for 2 they had egos larger than any other, if for say there were more you would have super men deciding to dominate humanity(how many science fiction things have that?)

Kage2020
26-07-2010, 16:36
One thing to remember is that the Emperor did plan to make more Primarchs, IIRC (don't have my copy of Lost and the Damned on me to check the language), so... Thank god that he didn't manage to do that. You wouldn't be able to get the Space Marine players to shut up. ;) (I'm jesting.)

Also, add one to the commendation of Hellebore for posting that link to TVTropes. While I normally hate that site, that particular article was awesome.

Kage

Karl MkVI
26-07-2010, 18:36
seconded; good work, Hellebore. very entertaining! :D

btw, Kage; that entire paragraph was a jest, right? e.g: there is no source stating that the Emperor wanted to create more primarchs, is there...?

Kage2020
26-07-2010, 18:45
No, there's something about it in the realms of p173 of Lost and the Damned but since I don't have it near me at work I cannot check it.

Oh the joys. I'll post it later if someone doesn't get there first.

Kage

IceWind
26-07-2010, 19:43
Why not create hundreds? Because can you imagine how hard it is to control hundreds of semi-Emperors when almost a half of the original 20 went rogue on him. :D

IWedit: Oh and btw, Hellebore, that was a definite thread-winner right there. :)

Karl MkVI
26-07-2010, 19:49
No, there's something about it in the realms of p173 of Lost and the Damned but since I don't have it near me at work I cannot check it.

Oh the joys. I'll post it later if someone doesn't get there first.

Kage

Hmm, please do; I'm intrigued! :)

too young for RoC, for the record; and I like my 'modern' fluff the way it is (for the most part!;)), so I've never bothered getting copies of the books.

Finnith
26-07-2010, 19:58
Im sure in the Lost and the Damned the Primaches were referred to as 'Prototypes' which is what Kage2020 was on about. Prototypes to what it doesnt go into but the space marines and legions feel very much like Plan B.

Kage2020
26-07-2010, 20:01
Right, work finished with for the day so will get to finding that text asap.


...but the space marines and legions feel very much like Plan B.
Feel? It's out-right stated that they are as such. :D

Kage

AndrewGPaul
26-07-2010, 20:10
Page 173 is a full-page picture of the Emperor looking badass. I think the paragraph you mean is on page 177;

"The Emperor's most long-sighted plan to counter the insidious influences of the Chaos Powers was the creation of the Primarchs: genetically-engineered super-humans with god-like powers. The Emperor's intention was to create a whole race of super-humans from the genetic blueprint of the Primarchs. By making them loyal and strong he hoped they would prove immune to the malign psychic influences of Chaos.

The Primarchs were to be shining examples of humans free from the taint of corruption. The Energy of the uncorrupted warp would flow through them as it flowed through the Emperor himself, invigorating them and conferring special powers such as were possessed by the shamans of old."

Son of Sanguinius
26-07-2010, 20:27
The first part of that quote sounds as if the Emperor could perhaps have intended to replace humanity entirely. Like he wanted to rev up the evolutionary arms race.

Obviously, everything didn't go to plan either. And the Emperor did a ****-poor job of making them incorruptible.

MarcoSkoll
26-07-2010, 20:27
Malice313's point is an important one.

By the point he created the Primarchs, the Emperor had lived for somewhere approaching 40,000 years. What's a few centuries against that?

Kage2020
26-07-2010, 21:08
Page 173 is a full-page picture of the Emperor looking badass. I think the paragraph you mean is on page 177;

"The Emperor's most long-sighted plan to counter the insidious influences of the Chaos Powers was the creation of the Primarchs: genetically-engineered super-humans with god-like powers. The Emperor's intention was to create a whole race of super-humans from the genetic blueprint of the Primarchs. By making them loyal and strong he hoped they would prove immune to the malign psychic influences of Chaos.

The Primarchs were to be shining examples of humans free from the taint of corruption. The Energy of the uncorrupted warp would flow through them as it flowed through the Emperor himself, invigorating them and conferring special powers such as were possessed by the shamans of old."
Yeppers.

And I would just like to point out that I feel very depressed that I actually remembered the correct page. :eyebrows:

Kage

Edit: It's at this point that I realise that I didn't really remember the page correctly. I am therefore less depressed about my memory, and slightly more depressed about my reading comprehension. ;)

Hunger
26-07-2010, 23:45
Hang on, where have I heard those words before...?


...blasting the crap out of a country and throwing a few voting booths amongst the smoking debris and corpses would be all you'd need to enforce democracy.

TheDireAvenger
27-07-2010, 01:25
Why is there only one Emperor of Mankind? One Emperor of Mankind is absolutely nothing on a galactic scale. Why not make hundreds of Emperors so they can conquer thousands of galaxies.

This. Quoted for Truth.

Kage2020
27-07-2010, 01:35
Please. That's the plot line for the next version of 40k (6e!) co-authored by Matt Ward and Alan Merrett. :D

Kage

DarthMcBob
27-07-2010, 02:56
I wonder how that experiment ever turned out...

93159

Funnily enough, not so well.

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 03:05
I have that poster above my bed. :D

Don't know whether I should be proud of that, but I am. :D

Girlfriend's not entirely pleased, but c'est la vie, no? ;)

Hellebore
27-07-2010, 03:21
Need a plush Horus/ Sanguinius to sit on each shoulder and offer advice.

Although given that it's 40k, they'll both be offering the same advice 99% of the time - kill them all. It's only on the finer points of HOW that they differ...

Hellebore

FabricatorGeneralMike
27-07-2010, 04:01
I have that poster above my bed. :D

Don't know whether I should be proud of that, but I am. :D

Girlfriend's not entirely pleased, but c'est la vie, no? ;)

I was going to say the same thing, but mine is in my 'man-cave' the G/F wouldn't let me put it up in the bedroom... along with the pics of my parents dog, some gundam models and other 'various' man-things...:cries:

To bad, I think it would of looked aces in there. :shifty:

FabricatorGeneralMike
27-07-2010, 04:03
Need a plush Horus/ Sanguinius to sit on each shoulder and offer advice.

Although given that it's 40k, they'll both be offering the same advice 99% of the time - kill them all. It's only on the finer points of HOW that they differ...

Hellebore

Well, one would want to drink your blood and the other would want to offer it up to his gods.... makes sence to me..... ( personally I would want Night Haunter & Rogal Dorn on my shoulders wispering me advice.) :shifty:

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 04:35
Need a plush Horus/ Sanguinius to sit on each shoulder and offer advice.

Although given that it's 40k, they'll both be offering the same advice 99% of the time - kill them all. It's only on the finer points of HOW that they differ...

Hellebore

My girlfriend would love a Sanguinius plushie! Must find....:shifty:


I was going to say the same thing, but mine is in my 'man-cave' the G/F wouldn't let me put it up in the bedroom... along with the pics of my parents dog, some gundam models and other 'various' man-things...:cries:

To bad, I think it would of looked aces in there. :shifty:

Haha, I know your pain. :D

Lupe
27-07-2010, 04:53
I'd have Russ and Perturabo on my shoulders...

For some reason I see them as an old married couple, arguing all the time. The boisterous Russ and the deadpan Perturabo having a chat about the proper way to blow something out of existence... Wouldn't that be a sight?

Malice313
27-07-2010, 05:12
My girlfriend would love a Sanguinius plushie! Must find....:shifty:

I've often thought that Sanguinius might look like the character Varro in Sparticus Blood and Sand

starlight
27-07-2010, 05:54
There were rumours that the original reason was to duplicate the twenty Roman Legions, including the two *disappeared* Legions...


...unfortunately neither number is accurate...there were many more than twenty Roman Legions, and more than two vanished...but hey, for a bunch of twenty-something geeks pillaging historical and fictional references for source material for their new game, I think they did okay... :p

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 06:06
That they did, starlight. :)

Polaria
27-07-2010, 06:56
There were rumours that the original reason was to duplicate the twenty Roman Legions, including the two *disappeared* Legions...

...unfortunately neither number is accurate...there were many more than twenty Roman Legions, and more than two vanished...but hey, for a bunch of twenty-something geeks pillaging historical and fictional references for source material for their new game, I think they did okay... :p

Did you tconsider the possibility that the real reason might be because they had exactly twenty geeks doing it? :shifty:

starlight
27-07-2010, 07:08
18...which is why they made up two...:shifty:...or those two were out making a pizza run...:shifty:...or something...:shifty:...

Kage2020
27-07-2010, 11:58
18...which is why they made up two...:shifty:...or those two were out making a pizza run...:shifty:...or something...:shifty:...
Unfortunately that line of argument just reinforces the ideas that the Missing Legions are Marine girls. Typical of male gaming dorks to make up token girls to be the object of their fantasies. :eyebrows:

Kage

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 17:06
Wow...a pizza run from which they never returned. Or perhaps fell to Chaos and had to be destroyed. Ew. Now I'm thinking of Slaaneshi pizza.

Karl MkVI
27-07-2010, 19:48
I'd have Russ and Perturabo on my shoulders...

For some reason I see them as an old married couple, arguing all the time. The boisterous Russ and the deadpan Perturabo having a chat about the proper way to blow something out of existence... Wouldn't that be a sight?

Angron and Curze. two nutters; one mad and yet wise, one just completely barking. it's the only way forward! :)

sigur
27-07-2010, 19:54
The Emperor wanted generals to lead his armies to conquer the galaxy. 20 is absolutely nothing on a galactic scale. Even if each could conquer 1,000 worlds per year, it would take centuries to get even close to the goal. Why not make hundreds?

It's mythology. All these "why?" questions when it comes to the Horus Heresy, anything before that, about the Emperor, the Chaos gods and the Primarchs are so incredibly inane.

dswanick
27-07-2010, 20:44
The primarchs werent created as new humanity, as they dont have breeding to make a new race, they are for the most part the closest thing aside from the Emperor to be gods, as they dont have cellular degeneration due to age, have physical characterics far above humans, but are probably as sterile as the astartes.


Umm, I seem to remember reading in one of the older codexs that the chapter masters of the current White Scars are the direct blood offspring of Jaghatai Khan...

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 20:49
Umm, I seem to remember reading in one of the older codexs that the chapter masters of the current White Scars are the direct blood offspring of Jaghatai Khan...

Perhaps, but then we get into all kinds of debate about retcon and into all kinds of misunderstandings about human and bipedal physiology. Best leave that alone. :)

starlight
27-07-2010, 21:01
None of which precludes a genetic contribution on the science side rather than the...:shifty:...regular...:shifty:...way.


:p

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 21:12
None of which precludes a genetic contribution on the science side rather than the...:shifty:...regular...:shifty:...way.


:p

Are you suggesting...donation? :angel:

Karl MkVI
27-07-2010, 21:27
I think that a better question goes like this; what woman could handle someone the size of a primarch (assuming everything is in proportion)...? seriously, I mean. and let's not even get into the notion that they are made of warp energy etc. it's all too creepy and disturbing, to be honest.

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 21:29
I think that a better question goes like this; what woman could handle someone the size of a primarch (assuming everything is in proportion)...? seriously, I mean.

NO! Resist, Karl. Resist with all of your willpower. This is a debate about the reason for 20 primarchs, and I apologize for any part I have played in its derailment.