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Polaria
26-07-2010, 09:15
Does anyone else find it a bit strange that in BL/FFG fluff a couple of marines can wipe literally hundreds of enemies like gaunts without breaking a sweat and in table top the few marines will die just like anayone else when 30 hormagaunts charge them?

I mean when did fluff take a sharp turn to the left and vanished completely out of the sight of what happens in tabletop?

colmarekblack
26-07-2010, 09:33
I'm gonna take the plunge for this one and suggest that game balance is key.

If Space Marines were capable of decimating armies without breaking a sweat the game would quickly get boring and you would may as well change Warhammer 40k's name to Warhammer Space Marine.

Also not all Space Marines are uber hard in Black Library. Look at Gaunts Ghosts, Fire Warrior and the Ciaphas Cain series.

Idaan
26-07-2010, 09:39
The ones in BL/FFG are protagonists/player characters, so both by the in-universe (greater experience) and out of universe (plot armour) reasons they're better.

deacon52
26-07-2010, 09:46
would you read the stories if the hero's didnt kick ass.

the stories are written to inspire you to get excited about your army/hobby and buy more product.

Polaria
26-07-2010, 10:31
The ones in BL/FFG are protagonists/player characters, so both by the in-universe (greater experience) and out of universe (plot armour) reasons they're better.

Sure, I understand the protagonist part, but it doesn't really stop there... over the time the fluff has developed so that Astartes Power Armor should actually be a one-man IFV and astartes bolters should be like autocannons.

Still in tabletop power armor is 3+ save and the "astartes" bolter is no different from all the other bolters. So basically Mark VII and Astartes Bolter are exactly same in tabletop stats as Sisters of Battle power armor and bolters. Still in FFG fluff Mk VII is significantly better than any other power armor and Astartes bolters are more lethal than "normal" heavy bolter.

I'm not sure if Black Library novels have ever compared different power armors and bolters, but FFG surely has.

abasio
26-07-2010, 10:42
What sells books & what sells models is very different.
People seem to want to read about the Space Marines being the epitomy of awesome, with a single squad taking down an entire planet but if that was reflected in the game then for the points you used for your imperial guard army I would have one space marine. I doubt GW would sell as many models then.

But almost every faction is stronger in the books. Orks are as strong as space marines, Eldar can only be killed near the end of the story and some Imperial Guard officers are unkillable even when facing hordes of Chaos Marines.

Idaan
26-07-2010, 10:50
Still in tabletop power armor is 3+ save and the "astartes" bolter is no different from all the other bolters. So basically Mark VII and Astartes Bolter are exactly same in tabletop stats as Sisters of Battle power armor and bolters. Still in FFG fluff Mk VII is significantly better than any other power armor and Astartes bolters are more lethal than "normal" heavy bolter.MkVII has 8 points of armour, the same as normal power armour in DH. And the Sisters' power armour is explicitly stated to offer the same protection as Marines' but without the benefits of Black Carapace.

Regarding the Marines' bolters, that was a necessity to make them able to wound other Marines - Purge the Unclean was written before DH rules were finalized and armour penetration worked differently. Right now Agamorr is practically impervious to Plasma Guns, which is quite ridiculous. The DW writers just went on with it, but it's just an artifact of wonky game mechanics - just like the INQ Marines having fists stronger than plasma cannons and doing more damage by throwing their bolters than shooting them.

Polaria
26-07-2010, 11:00
MkVII has 8 points of armour, the same as normal power armour in DH. And the Sisters' power armour is explicitly stated to offer the same protection as Marines' but without the benefits of Black Carapace.

Regarding the Marines' bolters, that was a necessity to make them able to wound other Marines - Purge the Unclean was written before DH rules were finalized and armour penetration worked differently. Right now Agamorr is practically impervious to Plasma Guns, which is quite ridiculous. The DW writers just went on with it, but it's just an artifact of wonky game mechanics - just like the INQ Marines having fists stronger than plasma cannons and doing more damage by throwing their bolters than shooting them.

Right now FFG version of Sisters battle armor has AP7 and their bolters do 1d10+5 with pen of 5... Which means that Adepta Sororitas bolter can barely scratch a Marine while Marine bolter (2d10+5/pen6) will obliterate Adepta Sororitas.

Idaan
26-07-2010, 12:30
Well it says "light" power armour, given the circumstances in that adventure (the investiture of a new Archimandrite that should go without any problems), and because even normal "civilian" pa is 8 armour I see no reason why they wouldn't have heavier armours for strictly military operations. As for bolters, well, it's a screw-up I say.

gwarsh41
26-07-2010, 13:33
As stated before, the ones in books are main characters. So assume that on the table they are a special character (even if they are a normal marine in the book) So, for kicks, take ragnar blackmane, who has several books about him. His book exploits compared to what he is capable on the table match up pretty evenly when you take into count furious charge and saga of the warrior born.
The only test I have run with him was Blackmane VS infinite guardsmen. He killed 97 before falling. after the 3rd turn he started killing 14-19 each turn as per his saga.

Plus, its a book about marines, do you really want to read about your protagonist being killed by weak enemies?

Malice313
26-07-2010, 13:41
Good to see the old "Movie Marines" thread makes its regular stop.

Karl MkVI
26-07-2010, 14:16
*sigh*

do these threads really need to exist?

repeat after me: "the tabletop game is designed to be balanced. if space marines were a true self-reflection on the tabletop then you would be allowed to field approximately two. this would be idiocy. much like this thread."

EDIT: this post is not meant to be rude to the OP at all; it just really confuses me that people seem to ask the same question every week and are never satisfied with what is a perfectly logical answer. :confused:

N0-1_H3r3
26-07-2010, 14:17
Well it says "light" power armour, given the circumstances in that adventure (the investiture of a new Archimandrite that should go without any problems), and because even normal "civilian" pa is 8 armour I see no reason why they wouldn't have heavier armours for strictly military operations. As for bolters, well, it's a screw-up I say.
While I'm a supporter of Sororitas characters having AP8 (not necessarily normal power armour, as that comes with size and strength boosts as well - Best-Craftsmanship Light Power Armour would serve the background better, IMO), but I don't necessarily think they should be using Astartes bolters.

Remember, the distinction being made is Astartes vs "Mortal" (Sisters of Battle fall into the latter category, not being Astartes), not (as some have previously claimed it to be) military vs civilian. That's not to say that the Adepta Sororitas shouldn't have a better class of bolter than most, but that doesn't inherently mean that they get Astartes-equivalent equipment...

Kage2020
26-07-2010, 14:17
Plot armour for the novels, and the general concept that it's all one big circle-***k?


I'm gonna take the plunge for this one and suggest that game balance is key.
In terms of the wargame? For sure. It's the reason that you have the thematic army and, along with the idea of Zulu, that you'll get a massively technologically inferior race being able to win against a technologically superior one. After all, what's the fun if you don't have a chance to win?


Still in FFG fluff Mk VII is significantly better than any other power armor and Astartes bolters are more lethal than "normal" heavy bolter.
Well, there's your problem right there. "Astartes"-grade weaponry. :rolleyes:


People seem to want to read about the Space Marines being the epitomy of awesome, with a single squad taking down an entire planet...
You should check out the FFG introductory (free) adventures for Deathwatch, an RPG dedicated to veteran Space Marines. This post from peterstepon is, I feel, rather illuminating:


The new adventures for Deathwatch are amazing, and they show how a small group of well trained and motivated Space marines can accomplish pretty much anything. In these 2 adventure, 4 Space Marines not only defend a planet against a tyrannid invasion, but also board the hive ship and manage to effectively shut down a hive fleet. If 4 marines can do that, imagine what more can do. As you add more the raw power multiplies so the true power of the legions astartes is revealed to the galaxy. No wonder they were able to conquer the galaxy back in the day. Even these are Deathwatch members, I am sure you could take 4 randomly selected Space Marines and get the same result. Space Marines are great not only for their stats, but also for their "can do" attitude.
And, for the heck of it, the rest of the post:


5 Marines, a demi squad: An extra marine would probably be a welcome boost of firepower to make the adventures that much easier. Imagine 20% more firepower and how much of a difference that would make.

10 Marines: A full squad. Probably a ton of firepower which would make the adventures a cakewalk as the marines waltz through their encounters with tyrannids and rebels. Battles against hordes end instantly and every xenos they meet explodes in a shower of gore as ten marines unleash their bolters.

100 Marines: A full company. Probably the standard deployment of a Space Marine force. This same force of Salamanders held back an ork horde in Salamander. The same force of Red Scorpions in the Anphilion project was able to complete a mission agains another tyrannid horde. In the adventures prosented, The Marines take over the planet within hours, kill the rebels, and kill enough tyrannids to send Hive fleet Dagon screaming into space

200 Marines, 2 full companies. The UltraMarines and Mortifactors were able to hold back and defeat a hive fleet with such a force in the Ultramarines books. The Raptors were able to inflict heavy losses on the Tao in the Taros campaign (even if the campaign was a fiasco for imperial forces).. In the adventures, the rebels and tyrannids surrender as soon as the force spills out of the warp.

400 Marines: What survived on Rynns world after the missle accident. They stil manage to hold back an ork horde for over a year which numbered into the millions.

1000 Marines; A full chapter. According to the tyrannids book, the Ultramarines were able to destroy a whole hive fleet with their chapter (Kraken). They also didnt cheat and board the hive fleet to kill the hive queen. They actually fought and killed so many tyrannids that the whole fleet litterally burned through its biomass and ran out of soldiers.
Comment about Marines in the GW/BL materials or the FFG game system? Seems to be a bit of both. ;)


MkVII has 8 points of armour, the same as normal power armour in DH. And the Sisters' power armour is explicitly stated to offer the same protection as Marines' but without the benefits of Black Carapace.
Don't forget the root problem, here: awesomez. Marines has it, Sisters don't. That's why the Marine gets at least twice the awesome buffing from their Toughness Bonus. :D


The DW writers just went on with it, but it's just an artifact of wonky game mechanics - just like the INQ Marines having fists stronger than plasma cannons and doing more damage by throwing their bolters than shooting them.
Heresy! How could you even suggest this! :shifty:

Kage

Post
26-07-2010, 16:16
Realistically, the reason Marines would be awesome is the same reason things like Delta Force are awesome, application of extreme force with extreme precision with extreme speed.

Thematically, Marines are not just soldiers, not even just Super Soldiers, they are the Angels of Death, the grandchildren of a God. They can take the worst the galaxy has to offer, because pound for pound they Are the worst the galaxy has to offer.

Kage2020
26-07-2010, 16:25
...Which just goes to show that they've got good spin doctors. It's just a terrible time when the spin-doctoring actually gets codified. :D

Kage

Clockwork-Knight
26-07-2010, 16:35
I distinquish the marines in three different versions.

Movie-/Black Library-/Propaganda-Marines, who can do all that ludicrous stuff and fart lightning bolts capable of obliterating 100 trillion billion bad guys like Axe Cop.

Game-Marines, who are quite weak and fall in the dozens.

And Real-Marines, as depicted in the Forgeworld-Imperial Armoury-books, where they use smart tactics, use cover, try to get in and out as possible and retreat when the odds are not in their favor. They're stronger than Game-Marines, but still far from the Propaganda-Marines who set themselves on fire because they have flame-breathing dinosaur-dragons with machine-gun arms and other stuff.

Kage2020
26-07-2010, 16:37
I agree. :shifty:

Throw in the Marines from Deathwatch into your first category and you're a winner.

Kage

Polaria
26-07-2010, 16:46
Well, Deathwatch marines can actually get killed by a single genestealer one-on-one, so they are not quite as bad a category one... However, a single genetealer can't kill half a dozen so they aren't category two either.

x-esiv-4c
26-07-2010, 16:48
Meh, all the same to a Demolisher cannon :]

Kage2020
26-07-2010, 16:53
Well, Deathwatch marines can actually get killed by a single genestealer one-on-one, so they are not quite as bad a category one... However, a single genetealer can't kill half a dozen so they aren't category two either.
I cite Hellebore's citation of the Conservation of Ninjitsu as being relevant here, more amusingly because of the principle of Hordes. :D

(Genestealers are meant to be able to tear Terminator marines apart, remember. This doesn't invalidate the admittedly tongue-in-cheek commentary about Marines in Deathwatch or the 40k RPG line in general. :D)

Kage

Lord_Crull
26-07-2010, 17:23
the Ciaphas Cain series.

Not quite. Cain himself struggles to win against a single Chaos Marine and needs Jurgen to help him. He then get's lucky and is only able to kill a badly wounded Chaos Marine.

spetswalshe
26-07-2010, 17:45
You might as well ask why the protagonist of a 'realistic' video game like the Call of Duty series is able to slaughter his way through literally thousands of Nazis pretty much single-handedly.

Kage2020
26-07-2010, 17:50
You mean that's not realistic!? And here was me thinking that I had gone through the same trauma as the veterans of D-Day when playing Medal of Honour Frontline and having that controller buzz in my hand...

;)

Kage

Karl MkVI
26-07-2010, 18:12
:D to the above, Kage. On a more serious note; playing as the Master Chief is probably a good way to explain why Space Marines are awesome in the fluff.

again, though, I reiterate; the TT game is designed for balance. It greatly surprises me how often people seem to miss this point.

Kage2020
26-07-2010, 18:20
Preaching to the converted there, Karl MkVI. Indeed, I take solace from this fact when considering the Eldar. (Noting that the Eldar, too, think that Marines are "awesomez" based upon their reaction in the novel Path of the Warrior. ;)) If only the wargame didn't have so much of a bearing on the darned 'fluff.' :shifty:

Kage

Karl MkVI
26-07-2010, 19:45
Preaching to the converted there, Karl MkVI. Indeed, I take solace from this fact when considering the Eldar. (Noting that the Eldar, too, think that Marines are "awesomez" based upon their reaction in the novel Path of the Warrior. ;)) If only the wargame didn't have so much of a bearing on the darned 'fluff.' :shifty:

Kage

ha! I wasn't preaching to you Kage, rather to the masses. I already had you down as a logical fellow. :)

that's interesting. I haven't read Path of the Warrior; might give it a go, but im very strict on the BL stuff i read ('Domestic 40k', Horus Heresy, and Dembski-Bowden). are you saying in the book the Eldar respect marines for their killiness? because that would bring a whole lot of justification to some opinions in the general debate.

UselessThing
26-07-2010, 22:48
Just imagine a Marine fight done in the style of

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/exclusive-who-dc-universe/702049

As to FFGs Marines, even Hellebore hasn't complained they are overpowered, which to me says they must be some seriously weak ass Space Marines. :-)

FarseerMatt
26-07-2010, 22:55
Does anyone else find it a bit strange that in BL/FFG fluff a couple of marines can wipe literally hundreds of enemies like gaunts without breaking a sweat and in table top the few marines will die just like anayone else when 30 hormagaunts charge them?

I mean when did fluff take a sharp turn to the left and vanished completely out of the sight of what happens in tabletop?

It is easily possible for marines to wipe out disproportionate numbers of enemies, but they do it by orbital support, extreme mobility, and concentrating their forces where their strengths count for most. To represent the way Marines fight in-universe you would probably fight 500 pts of your opponent's army at a time, with lots of enemies in reserve but a short time limit.

Of course that's not fair or fun, and the tabletop game is required to be both in a way that real warfare (and "in-universe" 40K) is not. Thus 40K doesn't represent 99% of the campaign, just that one epic battle where everything hung in the balance, it could have gone either way, and the victor tipped the scales.

BL, well, they write to entertain rather than to portray realistic battles (and this being 40K, I use the word realistic advisedly), so they can be forgiven for picking the Rule of Cool over "realistic" warfare. :)

And despite the prevalence of the "defensive" action in the fiction (where one side blazes away while wave upon wave of the other attempt to grind them down), which is easy to write and looks cool, this is really really not how Space Marines were designed to fight. They are excellent troops, but such a situation is not utilising their strengths to anything approaching the maximum. Not to mention that this works both ways, and "in universe" Tyranids / Orks / whatever would probably do something infinitely more cunning and nasty than simply run at the Marines!

Interestingly, DOW2 does a rather good job of portraying Marines, in that if you simply charge your four squads in they will get overwhelmed and destroyed, but if you use the right tactics and take the enemy on a bit at a time, you can clear the map of hundreds of enemies with almost no losses of your own.

UselessThing
26-07-2010, 23:06
And despite the prevalence of the "defensive" action in the fiction (where one side blazes away while wave upon wave of the other attempt to grind them down), which is easy to write and looks cool, this is really really not how Space Marines were designed to fight.

And yet, to properly emulate the fiction, this is what they must be able to do.

Kage2020
26-07-2010, 23:08
are you saying in the book the Eldar respect marines for their killiness? because that would bring a whole lot of justification to some opinions in the general debate.
Nah, it's almost as if they pause to think, "Damn, those Marines are awesomez." Of course, might be another one of those issues of confirmation bias. :D

Kage

FarseerMatt
26-07-2010, 23:17
And yet, to properly emulate the fiction, this is what they must be able to do.

You could also argue that any army in the 40K verse could defeat any other in such a scenario, provided they are given plenty of ammunition and an enemy who is content to just run at them ;)

Yes, Marines could win such a battle, but they could do so more efficiently by other means - and would have to to maintain suspension of disbelief if the authors put as much thought into the enemy and their tactics as their protagonists. Marines look even cooler when they beat a smart and cunning enemy at their own game.

UselessThing
27-07-2010, 01:35
Marines look even cooler when they beat a smart and cunning enemy at their own game.

I think I'm just more interested in seeing Marines throw people through walls. :0)

But seriously, I want to see exciting superpowered fight choreography the equal of anything you see in video games or big budget action movies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVMwp-eVNJ0

I'm basically all about the fight scene.

fenrisnorth
27-07-2010, 04:49
I always marvel at the tales of Space marines who take on planets. think of the AMMO, man. marines only take a few extra clips with them, now, I've never ready the story where a squad of marines takes on a planet and wins, but seriously, after the first couple of fights, they'd be using combat knives!

Polaria
27-07-2010, 07:07
As to FFGs Marines, even Hellebore hasn't complained they are overpowered, which to me says they must be some seriously weak ass Space Marines. :-)

Well, in the FFG introductory scenarios to Deathwatch RPG we have 4 to 6 Deathwatch marines taking on a hiveship and saving a planet from Tyrannid invasion by destroying the "brain" of the hiveship... So thats kinda awesome.

However, if we are completely honest they don't do it alone. They have an Imperial Navy fleet detachment of four capital ships and the whole planetary PDF (Emperor knows how many they must be) fighting the actual Swarm... But since they arent awesomez people usually just forget all about them :P

I guess it all comes down to how the scenarios are run in the end. If you run them like the Deathwatch was doing all alone and the PDF is just dying then you end up with them marines seeming like Gods. If you run them like the Deathwatch was just the tip of the huge sword composed of Navy and PDF and their success is not "all in a days work" but more like a huge miracle then the Deathwatch come out as less of movie-marines.

Hellebore
27-07-2010, 08:04
I can't complain about that specifically because DH characters would technically do the same thing. It's only if one marine takes on 10 million enemies and kills them all by himself that it gets stupid.

I'm not a fan of the FFG bolter differentiations, because they skew all other weapon designations dramatically. Plasma guns and melta weapons don't scale with them properly.

Marines are still made of human tissues. human tissues still tear and burn under the same situations. Marines just have the ability to halt damage through the larraman's organ. But a bullet through the brain will kill a marine just as much as a human.

I think the problem is that GW push the marine 'awesomness' whilst ignoring the 'everything else' awesomeness. Marines were necessary to help combat the monsters of the galaxy. Were it not for the fact that orks and eldar are just flat out superior to a normal human physically and militarily, the space marines would not have been needed.

Marines are monsters created to fight monsters. But that necessitates that their enemies be awesome too.

Something that GW has been ignoring more and more until marines become a farcical god force of pointlessness.

Hellebore

Polaria
27-07-2010, 10:05
Marines are monsters created to fight monsters. But that necessitates that their enemies be awesome too.


I love you for this comment. Truly. It was my thoughts exactly. Fluff needs to spread the awesomenez around a bit.

Anyway, Deathwatch isn't so bad because hormagaunts swarms, genestealers and such can rip normal marines to pieces very easily. The biggest problem there is the weapons scaling.... DW "Astartes" Bolters are comparable to Plasmaguns in the ability to damage things :P

Idaan
27-07-2010, 10:38
I always marvel at the tales of Space marines who take on planets. think of the AMMO, man. marines only take a few extra clips with them, now, I've never ready the story where a squad of marines takes on a planet and wins, but seriously, after the first couple of fights, they'd be using combat knives!

In Dark Heresy, IA and BL books there are lots of planets with populations of around 500 000 - 1 million, with one major settlement and centralised government. The PDF would be ill-equipped and spread out, so it's just the matter of landing before the local equivalent of White House, killing the guards and getting to the governor. Now a world like Necromunda with 300 billion population and many centers of power (governor, great houses, guilds etc) is a whole different story.

That's like comparing the Germany's conquest of Denmark (no disrespect towards Denmark of course) to Fall Barbarossa.

Kage2020
27-07-2010, 11:50
... but seriously, after the first couple of fights, they'd be using combat knives!
Which of course makes them more awesomez. I mean, Special Forces are scary, but these guys taken down entire planets with a pig sticker? How cool is that!?

:eyebrows:

A comment, I feel, once again deserves the posting of a well-known picture:

http://unmotivationalposters.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2253&g2_serialNumber=2

Because it's 40k and ultimately that's what it comes down to. Your paltry attempts at "realism," insofar as that can be applied without it being pointed out that it is the 40k universe and the above image applies, are going to fail...

Kage

UselessThing
27-07-2010, 16:49
Well, in the FFG introductory scenarios to Deathwatch RPG we have 4 to 6 Deathwatch marines taking on a hiveship and saving a planet from Tyrannid invasion by destroying the "brain" of the hiveship... So thats kinda awesome.

Yeah, but that is just because the nids apparently practice the same sort of intruder prevention as the Borg. From the stat line it is difficult to see how they could have made them less awesome, especially since these are the top 1% of Marines, with the rest presumably being even worse.

Karl MkVI
27-07-2010, 19:40
I think the problem is that GW push the marine 'awesomness' whilst ignoring the 'everything else' awesomeness. Marines were necessary to help combat the monsters of the galaxy. Were it not for the fact that orks and eldar are just flat out superior to a normal human physically and militarily, the space marines would not have been needed.

Marines are monsters created to fight monsters. But that necessitates that their enemies be awesome too.

Hellebore

true, but remember that they were designed to be better than everything else, and by some distance at that. otherwise, for one, they wouldnt be able to function at all effectively in companies and chapters.

I personally think a book like Helsreach, for example, has it right; "Orks suck compared with marines, but their numbers, strength, brute force and aggression give them a chance if they go at it for long enough." thoughts?

Kage2020
27-07-2010, 21:06
true, but remember that they were designed to be better than everything else, and by some distance at that.
There's a difference between intent and the end result. The problem is separating the two because of the whole design agenda/chronology thing. They were designed to be awesome, so now everything about them is awesome and because it was the Emperor that designed them to be awesome, they must truly be awesome.

As mentioned elsewhere, though, there are alternative ways of looking at it, e.g. is that second heart their to make them awesome or because the Marine just wouldn't be able to pump enough blood around their body without it?

Yes, Marines are pretty awesome at their associated tech-level, but what about more advanced troops? How awesomez is the Marine in comparison and does wargame balance monkey around with everything? (Answer: It does...) Unfortunately, the game and associated materials--which includes Dark Heresy etc.--just isn't equipped to deal with it, or selects not to deal with it since it is a somewhat thorny issue.

Kage

Karl MkVI
27-07-2010, 21:31
Yes, Marines are pretty awesome at their associated tech-level, but what about more advanced troops? How awesomez is the Marine in comparison and does wargame balance monkey around with everything? (Answer: It does...) Unfortunately, the game and associated materials--which includes Dark Heresy etc.--just isn't equipped to deal with it, or selects not to deal with it since it is a somewhat thorny issue.

Kage

the TT game does change things, most certainly. but it really shouldn't, as has been established previously. balance et al. shame that the distinction is too difficult for most to put up with.

I would say 'comprehend' as opposed to 'put up with', but I cant honestly believe that the majority of people miss the point that the game is designed for balance, hence I'm going to happily (and hopefully... and most likely naively (is that a word?)) assume that the problem lies in acceptance rather than understanding. :)

Clockwork-Knight
27-07-2010, 21:42
Or perhaps they have better representations of space marines in other sources, like Forgeworld books, where Space Marines depicted there are the golden ratio of both wargame-marines (who are too weak) and propaganda-marines (who are written like from a six year old boy who's idea is used for Axe Cop).

UselessThing
27-07-2010, 22:16
I dunno - I find there is something of a disconnect in the Imperial Armour books in that they want to write Marines as being epic heros who do important stuff, and spend half the book on it, then a tiny number of not very impressive Marines do something fairly underwhelming because they are limited to the tabletop representation of Marines.

They just don't come off as important enough to justify their word count (yknow - like an armoured thrust is two landraiders and a predator, and the massed ranks of traitor panzers are supposed to notice).

Clockwork-Knight
27-07-2010, 22:29
But that's how Space Marines work. They don't mow down a gigabillion bad guys in open fields and scream "THIS IS SPAAAAARRRRRTAAAAA" like an idiot while setting themselves on fire by their pet dinosaur-dragon with machinegun arms and cool shades, so that they become more powerful or something equally ridiculus. They take out space ports and then dissapear, disable anti-orbital defense systems, disrupt enemy supply lines, charge a vital command bunker that is coordinating the resistance and other such stuff. The seemingly small and yet absolutely crucial things that win the war. That, or they enter space hulks and clean if from genestealers and board enemy ships, because that's what space marines are actually created for. Space combat.

They are the scalpel, not the sledgehammer.

fenrisnorth
27-07-2010, 22:41
mmmmm scalpelhammer.. aaaaahuhhhuhhuhhh

Hellebore
27-07-2010, 22:46
true, but remember that they were designed to be better than everything else, and by some distance at that. otherwise, for one, they wouldnt be able to function at all effectively in companies and chapters.

I personally think a book like Helsreach, for example, has it right; "Orks suck compared with marines, but their numbers, strength, brute force and aggression give them a chance if they go at it for long enough." thoughts?

They were 'to be my finest warriors'. The subjectivity is pretty clear. Humanity's finest warriors doesn't necessarily equate to 'the galaxy's finest warriors'.

Given that humans are inferior to most alien races it does not necessarily follow that improving one automatically makes them BETTER than those alien races. It depends on how big the gap is and how much that augmentation can cross it.

However I'm not about to claim that an eldar is stronger or tougher than a marine.

But an eldar 'space marine' should by that logic be better than a human space marine.

One of the problems with the concept of marines is the dichotomy between the emperor and their function. Biologically they aren't particularly amazing. Extra organs, continual drug therapy and so on are not particularly 'leet' biological modifications. Yet the emperor supposedly made them and as Kage says, the emperor is supposed to be awesome therefore....

Space marines are awesome compared to where they come from, but are not 'quite' as awesome compared to what they're facing. ie a marine is X times superior to the human model they were built from, but only Y times superior to the Ork they are fighting.

Sometimes I think people forget that a genestealer/Ork/eldar et al is superior in combat to a human and see 'marines are better than humans' as a blanket 'marines are equally better than everything else'.

A space marine's equipment is also a force multiplier. A space marine fully equipped is better than an ork, but a naked marine and a naked ork doen't have as much of a gap between them. An ork's fists are natural weapons and its skin is tougher and more resilient than a marine's.

Hellebore

UselessThing
27-07-2010, 22:50
Well, I think the problem with IA specifically is that they have scaled up the size of the war (so there can be thousands/millions of guardsmen wondering about) but haven't scaled up the Marines to match.


Humanity's finest warriors doesn't necessarily equate to 'the galaxy's finest warriors'.

Well, the ad copy for Deathwatch says 'Join a brotherhood of the finest warriors in the universe', so...

Clockwork-Knight
28-07-2010, 00:11
Marines don't fight in the thousands/millions. They really are small elite task forces. They do and they can get clobbered by all sorts of enemies, but they'll grind their teeth together and still try to finish their objective. They don't start a fight against a front with 10 million enemies all at once. They attack primary and really important objectives.

Warhammer 40k, the boardgame that we all play and discuss, favors Space Marines the best, even if they're far more mortal than how they are depicted. The sort of battle we play is the sort of battles that are decisive, where the space marines use their forté.
The Imperial Armoury books depicts the important battles that the space marines participate, which are so crucial, that when they accomplish it, they have turned the entire tide of war.
Space Marines also use cover, smart tactics, overwhelm the enemy where's he's weak and they immediately retreat and then regroup where the enemy's defenses are too strong. The smart tactics, seeking cover, overwhelming the enemy where's he's weak and ordered retreat is the random element that the players who simulate these campaigns decide upon.

When the space marines achieve their objectives, then the enemy must fall back from the entrenched battle-fields, where there was a patt-situation, and the imperial guard can then advance, which doesn't need to be played out. By disrupting supply lines, the enemy at the front has not enough ammo, fuel, medical equipment and food, and then needs to fall back to reduce the supply line. By taking out the crucial command bunker, the enemy forces are in confusion, and don't know about the imperial movements. By destroying the anti-orbital missile silos, the imperial guard can actually land and commence their ground campaign. The spacce marines don't need nor are they forced to kill every defender, after they've done what they must do, they'll leave, so that they can be prepared for the next crucial engagement.
The space marines don't need their numbers upped in such confrontation. Their numbers are sufficient for the games Wh40k represents.

Kage2020
28-07-2010, 00:33
Warhammer 40k, the boardgame that we all play and discuss...
Speak for yourself, laddie. I only discuss it. :D

I do like your take on more "realistic" Marines, though. :D

Kage

Flawed
28-07-2010, 06:13
With reference to the Deathwatch quotes earlier, isn't it mentioned in Fulgrim that the Space marine Legions left the Eldar alone unless it could not be helped?

I think a large part of the difference between fluff and tt is also that most writers appear to have no concept of war and strategy and even those that do, continuously fail to think about how war would be like with the tools available in 40k. You can't apply contemporary military paradigms to a forces that have so many, better, options available than we do today. We only fight the way we do because that's all we can manage. With new technology has always come completely new strategies.

Polaria
28-07-2010, 06:32
You can't apply contemporary military paradigms to a forces that have so many, better, options available than we do today. We only fight the way we do because that's all we can manage.

Actually if you apply contemporary military paradigms to Space Marines they start to make sense. Because then they actually come off as special forces which are used as force-multipliers by hitting the important targets and providing all-around assistance to the less-awesome troops which provide the masses for massed engagements.

If we think back to 2001 when the US first went to Afghanistan the first boots on the ground were just over 100 special forces people divided in 12 men teams. Each team was assigned a huge area of responsibility. And by huge I mean an area the size of a small weatern coast state like, say, Massachusets. Now, in the same are there might very well be 40 000 talibans and 20 000 northern alliance troops slugging it out but almost in every case the single teams (along with the air-support) turned the tide of the battle in months.

This isn't far from how I imangine Marines to operate. Small teams, supported by Imperial Navy and/or their own capital class ships providing the needed "tie-breaker" for local PDF and/or IG to prevail over much larger enemy forces.

Flawed
29-07-2010, 08:38
Sure, whilst I agree this real world example provides a better explanation on how marines would work over how they do seem to, the one thing you're not taking into account are the enemies the marines are fighting. Those US special forces tactics worked super well against humans, with human infrastructure, human thoughts and human strategies.

But how well would they really work against Orcs and Tyranids? How do they work against Eldar? I haven't included Chaos or Necron because they were around at the time of the Marines creation.

The truth of the matter is, they wouldn't. Having said that, if the marines were truly created to fight humanities enemies, then their real abilities, weapons and doctrines would be tailored to do the job right.

It's just when they were created by GW, no one with any military knowledge or 'games and theory' training was there, so their design is, well, completely inaccurate and we have to put up with current BL books because of it.

Polaria
29-07-2010, 09:14
But how well would they really work against Orcs and Tyranids? How do they work against Eldar?


Lets see:

Orks - Space Marines kill the Warboss and his personal retinue, call a orbital strikes to annihilate the Gargants and booby-trap the scrapyards to prevent Mekboyz from repairing the Gargants. PDF/IG handless the millions of Boyz.

Tyranids - Space Marines kill the synapse creatures, call a orbital strikes to annihilate the Big Bugs and sabotage the Tyranid breeding chambers by assaulting hiveships and rigging them with viral/chemical weapons. PDF/IG handless the millions of gaunts.

Eldars - Space Marines kill the Farseer and suddenly the eldar lose the ability to predict the result of the battle. Exarchs and Autarchs become all confused and call retreat because withou Farseer guidance they could be actually heading into a future which will hurt their craftworlds.

Yep, actually modern warfare concepts would work. Reading the Ork/Tyrannid/Eldar codexes no-one with any tactical training would think the best way to combat them is to go into a middle of a huge field and just shoot them untill they run out of boyz/bugs/guardians. Granted, you will need lots of people and ammo to keep the boyz/bugs/guardians in check while you actually go about winning the war but that is what PDF and Imperial Guard is for.

Flawed
29-07-2010, 10:18
Why, in the age of orbital strikes, would there even be ground forces? We, the gamer, have to contrive a reason to get down on the ground so we can 'table top' it out, rather than going with the easiest strategy which is just blasting them from orbit.

Why do you need marines to kill a warboss when you can just flat out vape him from space?

As for Eldar, you seem to be assuming that the GW way is the way they'd really fight. In my opinion, nothing could be further from the truth. A force that is that highly teched, skilled and capable of seeing the future, the space marines would never ever get to grips with them. The Eldar move faster and more importantly, can't be surprised. How do you ever get to kill their farseer when they don't want it? I can't begin to expound on how a fighting force like the Eldar would actually wage war but you can guarantee it is not the way currently portrayed by the game.

We need to take it a step back and ask ourselves why you would build marines the way they were built, to fight an enemy that is faster, more stealthy, smarter, more tactically and strategically adept and can see the future? I don't think we would have.

Polaria
29-07-2010, 12:11
Why, in the age of orbital strikes, would there even be ground forces? We, the gamer, have to contrive a reason to get down on the ground so we can 'table top' it out, rather than going with the easiest strategy which is just blasting them from orbit.

Why, in the age of nuclear weapons, would there even be ground forces?




Why do you need marines to kill a warboss when you can just flat out vape him from space?

Why do you need to actually invade a country and hunt for a single leader when you can just nuke the whole country into stone age?

Just because you are technically capable of doing something doesn't automatically make it strategically or economically feasible.




As for Eldar, you seem to be assuming that the GW way is the way they'd really fight. In my opinion, nothing could be further from the truth. A force that is that highly teched, skilled and capable of seeing the future, the space marines would never ever get to grips with them. The Eldar move faster and more importantly, can't be surprised. How do you ever get to kill their farseer when they don't want it? I can't begin to expound on how a fighting force like the Eldar would actually wage war but you can guarantee it is not the way currently portrayed by the game.

Fluff seems to make it quite clear that Farseers need to actually concentrate on farseeing and spend lots of time in sorting out all the possible futures. It also seems to be something you do before the battle because it takes a lot of time and the fast-changing events of the battle itself make following individual destinies all but impossible. So its not like farseers go around with ready made "script of events". Its more like they try to sort out the long term effects of individual operative decisions.

Pyriel
29-07-2010, 12:16
do not compare nukes with orbital strikes. nuclear missiles nowadays can be shot down at a distance and neutralised. anti-missile technology has made huge progress. a ship with 2 Phalanx systems can (in theory) shoot down 2 incoming missiles per 10 seconds. (and no, a shot down nuke does NOT explode, nuclear physics does not work that way; unless the weapon used is also nuclear)

Clockwork-Knight
29-07-2010, 12:33
Because air space is contested and you need sneaky marines to finish him off. Where there is an ork waaagh, there is a waaagh-fleet pouring down more orks, an ork hulk that serves as the space base for the green tide, with which they defy the imperial fleet, mighty shields that can protect the ork warlord inside his megagargant, or the orks have so far put up their ground headquarters in a very important location where obliterating everything is absolutely forbidden, because the factories there might be irreplaceable, the site might be holy, or there's too many human slaves acting as meat shields for their new orkish overlords.
Space Marines have trained almost a century as scouts to be able to sneak behind enemy lines, so that they can suddenly surprise the chief warlord before his entire retinue comes to his aid and butchers the marines.

The same goes for the tyranids.

As for the Eldar, as much vaunted their futuresight is, it is not perfect, does not see crucial details, and the exarchs and autarchs can only do as much without knowing exactly what the seers have gazed upon.
Of course, fighting against eldar is always considered a really hard challenge by the space marines.
A small eldar task force that strikes a few targets and then returns to the webway will not be dealt by the space marines, because the eldar will have left by then, before any distress call is send to the astartes.
However, the eldar do sometimes use their entire war hosts to wage a complete war against the imperium. It could be that they need to slay the many billion human settlers who have since then taken over a specific maiden world and are poluting its environment, are harassing the exodites of these worlds, or just had a bad day and need to vent of their aggression by killing a few billion humans because they're like cockroaches.

Then, millions of eldar guardian militia and aspect warriors will come to fight, and they need a base, must build supply depots, errect new webway portals, perform repairs, take human captives, prepare their nimble titans and all that stuff. Then the space marines will try to do the same thing as they did with all their other enemies. Try to harass supply lines, take out key figures in the eldar's chain of command, launch fake attacks to divert the attention of the war hosts, free captives, take some prisoners for themselves, disable webway portals and all that stuff.

The eldar are fast, stealthy, smart and tactically as well as strategically adept, and do even have foresight, but space marines are also fast and mobile, stealthy, smart, and tactically as well as strategically adept. The ability of the seers to gaze into the future gives the eldar an advantage, but it is not perfect, and for the eldar warriors is only a vague goal that they must achieve.

Most times, the eldar will win. Sometimes, the eldar can be forced to withdraw back to their craftworlds. And a few times, the eldar might even be defeated.

Polaria
29-07-2010, 13:13
do not compare nukes with orbital strikes. nuclear missiles nowadays can be shot down at a distance and neutralised. anti-missile technology has made huge progress.

Iraqis or Afghans couldn't shoot down nukes. Still they were invaded instead of nuked.

UselessThing
29-07-2010, 13:30
Even in Imperial Armour Marines attack strong targets - I remember a blocking action in IA3, assaulting breeches in Siege of Vraks (and an engagement where they deliberately draw in as many defenders as possible to destroy them utterly) and intending to attack an Ork Warboss in the latest.

These are not soft targets. No, Marines attack the Schwerpunkt or focal point. This is not a weak point - it is infact likely to be a point of strength, but one on which all depends.

As such, they need to be awesome. :-)

Shamana
29-07-2010, 13:38
As for Eldar, you seem to be assuming that the GW way is the way they'd really fight. In my opinion, nothing could be further from the truth. A force that is that highly teched, skilled and capable of seeing the future, the space marines would never ever get to grips with them. The Eldar move faster and more importantly, can't be surprised. How do you ever get to kill their farseer when they don't want it? I can't begin to expound on how a fighting force like the Eldar would actually wage war but you can guarantee it is not the way currently portrayed by the game.

That's what I thought - but since GW had a lone SM chapter singlehandedly (afaik) wipe out a craftworld (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Invaders)... No Imperial Navy, AdMech, or the like, just a single Chapter with its resources...

Seriously, whoever thought of that and the ....... vampiric zoanthrope omnomnoming an Infinity circuit and soloing Malan'tai (yes, vampiric, and yes, it ....... sparkles (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Doom_of_Malan%27tai)) must be kicked in the nuts until they promise never to touch 40k-fluff again. Geez, it used to be that a Craftworld mattered, since the 5th edition came out 2 have been killed off for minor fluff elements. /facepalm

Kage2020
29-07-2010, 14:02
One thing to be remembered, or at least can be argued, is that in the 40k universe and how it is written the Imperium is the protagonist and all other races the antagonist. The protagonist then interacts through various plot devices with the other races to get them in the plot.

Definitions:

Protagonist: How cool am I?

Antagonist: Burn on the pyre of the Emperor's wrath, xenos scum!

Plot Device: Any device that gets the protagonist to put the antagonist into the plot.

Plot (a): The plan or "scheme" of the main story.

Plot (b): A 3'x7' hole in the ground, approximately 6' deep.

:shifty:

Kage

Tactical Retreat!
29-07-2010, 15:28
One thing to be remembered, or at least can be argued, is that in the 40k universe and how it is written the Imperium is the protagonist and all other races the antagonist. The protagonist then interacts through various plot devices with the other races to get them in the plot.

Definitions:

Protagonist: How cool am I?

Antagonist: Burn on the pyre of the Emperor's wrath, xenos scum!

Plot Device: Any device that gets the protagonist to put the antagonist into the plot.

Plot (a): The plan or "scheme" of the main story.

Plot (b): A 3'x7' hole in the ground, approximately 6' deep.

:shifty:

Kage

Real writers aren't limited by crap like this. GW and BL ones do, and that means they are bad.

Kage2020
29-07-2010, 15:29
I did not say that it was a good thing, just noted it as a convention from pulp B-movie horror films that might seem appropriate here. :D

Kage

Tactical Retreat!
29-07-2010, 16:07
I did not say that it was a good thing, just noted it as a convention from pulp B-movie horror films that might seem appropriate here. :D

Kage

I hear you. But for example Mass Effect manages to take the classic, cheap alien sci-fi trope and turn it into good stories that you can actually experience and go "hmm... that makes sense" rather than facepalming yourself.

If GW fired the idiots and hired some smart people to work on the 40k fluff I'm sure we wouldn't have threads like these around. I suppose they just don't care much for the quality of the background anymore, which might be understandable considering their current business model. I don't know.

FlashGordon
29-07-2010, 16:21
Thats funny, i think the quality of background have improved immensly since 1st ed. (if we ignore Cr4ckpots like cs goto)

And it also seems alot of the BL writers have earned prizes and write for other companies also. Must be because they suck. :rolleyes:

Kage2020
29-07-2010, 16:38
Thats funny, i think the quality of background have improved immensly since 1st ed. (if we ignore Cr4ckpots like cs goto)
I'm a child of 1e, so my own approach is to take what I got from those earlier materials and use it as a lens to look at all the cool stuff that has been subsequently produced, judging it on merit alone. Of course, that's merit in my eyes. Thus, the background on the Inquisition produced by Thorpe for Inquisitor? Superior, thus include. Well, but the old Ordo Malleus from Slaves to Darkness was also cool and I like secret societies, so find a way to wangle those into the fray.

New story about the Emperor as a cork in the Webway, Imperial or otherwise? Not so hot. Too pulp, so pretty much go with the original story on that one.

Either way, it's all fun. Some materials are superior and others are lame... In my estimation. YMMV.


And it also seems alot of the BL writers have earned prizes and write for other companies also. Must be because they suck. :rolleyes:
Honesty time, now. I haven't checked rigorously, but I believe those awards--deserved as they are--come for their work outside of BL. I think that there is one where that might not be the case, though, but it's more for a niche product/crossover in WFRP.

Kage

Tactical Retreat!
29-07-2010, 16:49
Thats funny, i think the quality of background have improved immensly since 1st ed. (if we ignore Cr4ckpots like cs goto)

And it also seems alot of the BL writers have earned prizes and write for other companies also. Must be because they suck. :rolleyes:

Since first edition? Sure. From between 3rd to 5th? No. It's slipping back into trash again.

And come on, prizes in the sci-fi/fantasy genre of literature don't mean much. I'm sure Terry Goodkind has some and that alone should settle this part of the argument.

FlashGordon
29-07-2010, 16:59
Since first edition? Sure. From between 3rd to 5th? No. It's slipping back into trash again.

And come on, prizes in the sci-fi/fantasy genre of literature don't mean much. I'm sure Terry Goodkind has some and that alone should settle this part of the argument.

1st: If thats your opinion ok. But i think most of it have improved and continues to improve. And as i said we have the Case of Matt Ward etc. nothing that really changes background(who cares that he thinks that everyone wants to be an Ultramarine).

2nd: Err. what? Elaborate.

Tactical Retreat!
29-07-2010, 17:06
2nd: Err. what? Elaborate.

Terry Goodkind is Satan incarnate when it comes to literature and philosophy.

FlashGordon
29-07-2010, 17:11
I'm a child of 1e, so my own approach is to take what I got from those earlier materials and use it as a lens to look at all the cool stuff that has been subsequently produced, judging it on merit alone. Of course, that's merit in my eyes. Thus, the background on the Inquisition produced by Thorpe for Inquisitor? Superior, thus include. Well, but the old Ordo Malleus from Slaves to Darkness was also cool and I like secret societies, so find a way to wangle those into the fray.

New story about the Emperor as a cork in the Webway, Imperial or otherwise? Not so hot. Too pulp, so pretty much go with the original story on that one.

Either way, it's all fun. Some materials are superior and others are lame... In my estimation. YMMV.


Honesty time, now. I haven't checked rigorously, but I believe those awards--deserved as they are--come for their work outside of BL. I think that there is one where that might not be the case, though, but it's more for a niche product/crossover in WFRP.

Kage

I admit that i think the Ordo Malleus was better before, as a secret watcher of the watchers(i still believe they are watching other inquisitors) only difference is that they now also specialize in daemons. '

And the Inq. war novels are some of my favourite BL productions. I think SM makes more sense now (since there are only around 1000 chapters...) as supermen.
It comes down to what you like.
I just get a little annoyed at all this "showing down the throat" "everything is bad because i say so".

For everyone who hates new fluff, there is someone who likes it.

It is probably like you say about the awards, but my point was that they are not bad(if they were they would not be writing for several different companies, and also not sell any books).

/End rant

FlashGordon
29-07-2010, 17:12
Terry Goodkind is Satan incarnate when it comes to literature and philosophy.

Source? or stop trolling. :chrome:

Tactical Retreat!
29-07-2010, 17:16
Source? or stop trolling. :chrome:

Come on.

Read one of his damn books, then tell me you don't agree.

FlashGordon
29-07-2010, 17:34
Im going to guess you base your spite for him on the worthless travesty that is the tv series, which is not his blame. And philosophy is philosphy, love or hate it. (i usually hate it)

But that is a little off topic. ;)

Lord_Crull
29-07-2010, 18:49
That's what I thought - but since GW had a lone SM chapter singlehandedly (afaik) wipe out a craftworld (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Invaders)... No Imperial Navy, AdMech, or the like, just a single Chapter with its resources...


That's actually explained in the Tyranid Codex as the same Craftworld being attacked by the Hive fleets and ruined to the point were it was basicly a ghost ship.

Idaan
29-07-2010, 19:43
Well, the ad copy for Deathwatch says 'Join a brotherhood of the finest warriors in the universe', so...
Well the ad for Warhammer 40000 says "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war". But there isn't.


, it used to be that a Craftworld mattered, since the 5th edition came out 2 have been killed off for minor fluff elements. /facepalm
Six actually, seven if you count CSM codex.

Shamana
29-07-2010, 21:15
That's actually explained in the Tyranid Codex as the same Craftworld being attacked by the Hive fleets and ruined to the point were it was basicly a ghost ship.

Malan'Tai? From what I understand, they were doing quite well against the tendril they fought. One Hiveship spewed some spores, tbe creatures were well under control, then one special zoanthrope found its way to the freaking IC (just how the heck did the Eldar let anything go into the freaking sanctum of the ship), omnomnomed the souls there (again, how the heck did it do that and not get mindsmashed to a pulp by all the seers-in-a-jar there), and then practically soloed the remaining forces.

And unless things are very, very different from that (as per the Lexicanum), it is so bad, I am sorry my palms aren't bigger so I can't facepalm well enough.


Six actually, seven if you count CSM codex.

Since the start of 5th edition? I know one in the SM codex, and one in the Tyranid codex, what other craftworlds?

Lord_Crull
29-07-2010, 21:30
Malan'Tai? From what I understand, they were doing quite well against the tendril they fought. One Hiveship spewed some spores, tbe creatures were well under control, then one special zoanthrope found its way to the freaking IC (just how the heck did the Eldar let anything go into the freaking sanctum of the ship), omnomnomed the souls there (again, how the heck did it do that and not get mindsmashed to a pulp by all the seers-in-a-jar there), and then practically soloed the remaining forces.


No, Idrahae, not Malan'Tai.

Tactical Retreat!
29-07-2010, 21:34
Even in Imperial Armour Marines attack strong targets - I remember a blocking action in IA3, assaulting breeches in Siege of Vraks (and an engagement where they deliberately draw in as many defenders as possible to destroy them utterly) and intending to attack an Ork Warboss in the latest.

These are not soft targets. No, Marines attack the Schwerpunkt or focal point. This is not a weak point - it is infact likely to be a point of strength, but one on which all depends.

As such, they need to be awesome. :-)

Last time I checked the German soldiers who were used in the "Schwerpunkt" strategy weren't supermen. Well Hitler claimed they were but he is fortunately not too well listened to today :P

The very point of the strategy is that you can defeat forces much stronger than your own, by maneuvering and speed rather than a bloody meatgrinder.

UselessThing
29-07-2010, 22:01
Oh aye, but it doesn't necesscarily involve hitting weak spots and raiding - it may involve pitched battles with high concentrations of the enemies 'ardest 'ardboyz, as we see in Imperial Armour. :0)

Shamana
29-07-2010, 22:03
No, Idrahae, not Malan'Tai.

Ah. Well, iirc both suffered some losses to the Tyranid before their untimely demise. Mind you, what sources I know did not mention horrific casualties (I have not read the Tyrannid codex, but the Invaders bit is from the SM one), and even with its forces somewhat depleted, a craftworld should have enough of a fleet, at least, to ensure a single, unsupported SM chapter does not get close enough for boarding action; not to mention the orbital bombardment and other support the Invaders are famous for rely on having complete superiority of the air/space. Nevermind all the defenses there, or the freaking farseers maybe having a clue something might happen, or whatever. Nevermind that with Tyranid remnants, plus all the usual bad guys, a craftworld wouldn't exactly be a high priority target. Plotwise, the destruction of Idharae achieves nothing except establish the street cred of a chapter pretty much no one cared for, and few people still do. Heck, the Howling Griffons are still iirc much more popular. Ugh. Or maybe someone decided that the Eldar hadn't taken enough licks in this codex (nevermind someone punched an Avatar to death in it) and decided to... well, add a much greater feat mention within a line or two, with completely no backstory whatsoever. So yeah.

Sorry, but if Slaanesh's finest had to basically jump through hoops, from seducing the daugher of an autarch to possessing the avatar, to bring doom to a craftworld a simple SM chapter will have to do a lot better than "all-out attack." Damn it, when's the last time a CSM warband, or a SM chapter, or something of nearly the same plot magnitude (except maybe Tyranid fleets, which exist to be heroically stopped) has been annihilated like that?

Tactical Retreat!
29-07-2010, 22:09
Oh aye, but it doesn't necesscarily involve hitting weak spots and raiding - it may involve pitched battles with high concentrations of the enemies 'ardest 'ardboyz, as we see in Imperial Armour. :0)

Sure but the SM described in Imperial Armour don't have anywhere near the capability to do the ridicolous stuff mentioned here. They are described as elite stormtroopers, which is all they should be IMO.

VoodooJanus
29-07-2010, 22:32
Wargames in general rarely supply a truly 1:1 scale of battle. So you either have to settle for a distorted representation, or, in your mind, alter the scale of the battle. Particularly for cases like this one, where there is an extraordinarily elite (1 per Empire planet according to the fluff) unit of troops at the core, it's difficult to efficiently provide an accurate scale. So, you have to use a bit of imagination. Those gaunts likely embody 10-20x that number on the table, while your marines likely are represented 1:1. It's just as ridiculous to assume that a full on Tyranid invasion consists of a few hundred gaunts and a beasty or two as it is to assume that your elite chapter could get wiped by such a tiny portion of a Tyranid fleet.

The other thing you could imagine, is that many of the tales told of Space Marines are exaggerated as a ploy to keep humanity calm, or whatever other reason you can think up.

It's unrealistic to represent a force of that nature, as you would either need to have massive xenos armies, or, have tiny 2 marine armies (in which case GW would certainly be out of business.)

Sir_Turalyon
29-07-2010, 23:07
Does anyone else find it a bit strange that in BL/FFG fluff a couple of marines can wipe literally hundreds of enemies like gaunts without breaking a sweat and in table top the few marines will die just like anayone else when 30 hormagaunts charge them?

I mean when did fluff take a sharp turn to the left and vanished completely out of the sight of what happens in tabletop?


It's the same artistic licence thing as with US Marines / SWAT teams killing more bad guys in single Michael Bay movie than they kill in whole operation in real life. The stories are supposed to be cool, tell a good story be a good show using elements of seting as narrative pieces, not be believable. Wargame is more simulation-like and expected to be more believable. It's no coincidence that true to BL fluff Marine ruels are called "Movie Marines".

Shamana
29-07-2010, 23:16
Well, fluff might have marines be able to shoot something that is more than 10 meters away... As the 1d4chan article joked, people are seriously lousy shots in the 40th century.

Kage2020
29-07-2010, 23:18
Isn't there a Law of Stormtrooper Marksmanship out there somewhere?

Kage

Son of Sanguinius
29-07-2010, 23:31
Isn't there a Law of Stormtrooper Marksmanship out there somewhere?

Kage

It technically only applies for Word Bearers on the capital ship Abyss.

Lord_Crull
30-07-2010, 01:56
Ah. Well, iirc both suffered some losses to the Tyranid before their untimely demise. Mind you, what sources I know did not mention horrific casualties (I have not read the Tyrannid codex, but the Invaders bit is from the SM one), and even with its forces somewhat depleted,

I think it was a great deal more than ''somewhat depleted''



Damn it, when's the last time a CSM warband, or a SM chapter, or something of nearly the same plot magnitude (except maybe Tyranid fleets, which exist to be heroically stopped) has been annihilated like that?

The Scythes of the Emperor were reduced to a single company by the nids. The same with the Lamenters but only to three companies. I believe the nids also wiped out the Infinity Knights. The Astral Knights are also gone along with the Swords of the Emperor.

Butcher of Vraks
30-07-2010, 02:45
The Scythes of the Emperor were reduced to a single company by the nids. The same with the Lamenters but only to three companies. I believe the nids also wiped out the Infinity Knights. The Astral Knights are also gone along with the Swords of the Emperor.

The Shadow Wolves entire chapter was destroyed by Tyranids as well.

The Emperor's Swords were completely destroyed by the Alpha Legion. The Imperium formed a new chapter with the same name sometime after and they were killed off by the Necrons.

Then we have the Warhawks and Venerators chapters who were destroyed completely by Doombreed during a Black Crusade.

Space Marines do suffer losses; most xeno players are too busy raging about favoritism to track the information down though. ;)

Askil the Undecided
30-07-2010, 03:39
While the 'Nids are eating:

Squats

The entire SMurf 1st company on macragge.

That big Ork empire Leviathan just ate.

Son of Sanguinius
30-07-2010, 03:47
While the 'Nids are eating:

Squats

The entire SMurf 1st company on macragge.

That big Ork empire Leviathan just ate.

Has Octavius officially lost yet? Or Octarius, or whatever they've changed it to now.

Askil the Undecided
30-07-2010, 04:07
To keep it short, Yes.

Invictus (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Invictus)

The Battle for Macragge was a historical battle with a pre-established outcome.

That being the the whole first company got slaughtered *while Calgar sauntered off to destroy the tyranid fleet. then Calgar goes to the northern polar fortress and finds the heroic last stand and falls to his knees and shouts "NOOOOOOOOO!!" etc, etc...*

[*events may not have happened exactly as described]

Clockwork-Knight
30-07-2010, 04:20
No, the battle between the ork empire and the greater wing of leviathan is still going on, as is the 13th black crusade of Abaddon.
These wars will take a few years before they'll be resolved once and for all.

Son of Sanguinius
30-07-2010, 04:23
To keep it short, Yes.

Invictus (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Invictus)

The Battle for Macragge was a historical battle with a pre-established outcome.

That being the the whole first company got slaughtered *while Calgar sauntered off to destroy the tyranid fleet. then Calgar goes to the northern polar fortress and finds the heroic last stand and falls to his knees and shouts "NOOOOOOOOO!!" etc, etc...*

[*events may not have happened exactly as described]

No, no. I mean the Ork empire that Leviathan sought to devour.

FabricatorGeneralMike
30-07-2010, 05:12
I think that is still going on, isn't it in the planetstrike book?


As to why the yankies didn't nuke Iraq is because what if Iran has them also? What if North Korea also has them? What is Isreal has them and decided they wanted to be rid of all the palistenians? Wayyy to many what if's, plus they wanted the oil wells... can't stop the flow of oil way to many americans and other 'powerful people' corperations etc get rich off of it. Wow I feel like Art Bell here...:shifty:



You have to remember, the Imperium only resorts to extermanitus as the last resort... unless your =][= Kryptman then you do it so the 'nids can't eat.. ;) . The imperium only has a million worlds, there are Trillions of humans. Kick out those who lived there before and repopulate it with loyal humans then rape the planet for everything its got.

I think marines are fine in game terms, remember the battle you are playing could be just a smaller piece of the over all battle going on. It could be one operation. Thats why it's so much fun to make up a story line to play with. It just pains me to watch people just play basic missions with KP's or Objectives.... I really miss the 2nd Ed missions. If you made the marines any more 'l3370' then they would be movie marines. Get a issue of WD 300 and use the movie marine rules. Sighs again. Might be fun for you, not so fun for the opponent, altho I did like the stunt doubles, that made me chuckle. As has been said before marines are a fore multiplier, 10 marines = awsome, 50= amazing, and a whole chapter = epic win, but 50 marines are not 50 times better, then are a 1000 times better.

As to the inq war books, I wish Watson put his heart and soul into the last two books, Harlie had the potential to be good, but Chaos Child....sighs...why why why!!!! IF you want to read a good Ian Watson book try to find Space Marine. I thought it was freaking amazing, I wish I bought it when I was younger and it was still avalable.

Rat Catcher
30-07-2010, 05:15
As to why the yankies didn't nuke Iraq is because what if Iran has them also? What if North Korea also has them? What is Isreal has them and decided they wanted to be rid of all the palistenians? Wayyy to many what if's, plus they wanted the oil wells... can't stop the flow of oil way to many americans and other 'powerful people' corperations etc get rich off of it. Wow I feel like Art Bell here...:shifty:

This has no place in the current conversation; take your hate-mongering to 4chan.

Son of Sanguinius
30-07-2010, 05:17
I think that is still going on, isn't it in the planetstrike book?

That was my impression, but I don't have the book with me. Thanks for the response.



As to why the yankies didn't nuke Iraq is because what if Iran has them also? What if North Korea also has them? What is Isreal has them and decided they wanted to be rid of all the palistenians? Wayyy to many what if's, plus they wanted the oil wells... can't stop the flow of oil way to many americans and other 'powerful people' corperations etc get rich off of it. Wow I feel like Art Bell here...:shifty:


Speaking as a Yank, our government couldn't do it because we wouldn't let them. Not all of use are quite so...greedy. :)

Shamana
30-07-2010, 09:58
I can't find any information on chapters called Shadow Wolves and Infinity knights (possibly you meant the EKnights of Eternity), but I admit there were some which are confirmed destroyed (I don't count chapters reduced in strength, but still standing). I stand corrected.

Post
30-07-2010, 10:07
The eldar get bitchslapped in EVERY codex. Marines haven't been dished half the pain they have.

Petay1985
30-07-2010, 10:11
i like to think of the fluff and storys as exagerated legends/imperial properganda, its all fun and hollywood.
i am happy to read about hardcore characters, from any race, but the games really is a different matter.

Goosey_J
30-07-2010, 15:37
None of the big important Eldar craftworlds will ever go. The same as none of the important/much loved marine chapters will go. Sure, X amount of unknown, un named eldar craftworlds have gone, but who cares? Same with all the unknown, uncared about marine chapters. There have been plenty of instances in Black Library books/other fluff where entire chapters have been destroyed. But no one cares, because really, there is an infinite number of marine chapters. Same with Craftworlds, Chaos legionaires, etc.

As long as Games Workshop don't come out with a definite list of every single Chapter and Craftworld, they can continue destroying them till kingdom come. Why? Cause no one knows how many there are. And as long as that is the case. Games Workshop can keep inventing new ones. Rest assured we'll keep seeing the destruction of Craftworld Babatikiraymoosheeub and others like it over and over again, without any real detriment to the Eldar race.

Col. Tartleton
30-07-2010, 16:52
Look at it this way:

Marines are uber. One marine fighting by himself could over the course of a month wipe out an entire battalion of soldiers no problem. He could probably do it quicker but he'd be putting himself more at risk. But in a protracted combat 1 marine is probably worth a thousand men. In a straight up gunfight ten guys could probably take him out. So in game a marine is worth three times what a guardsmen is instead of ten times. That's the deviation. But in one on one, a marine should beat a guardsmen a 999 of a thousand times or better. That's not quite how it is now. Currently a marine math hammers a guard kill with a round of bolter fire and the guardsman is has a pretty bad chance of dropping even a regular marine. Not 1:1000 but still pretty bad.

Its game balance.

Marines aren't godlike, they're super soldiers. Think Simho Haya in power armor. While they can crush a man like an egg in their armored fist, they probably wouldn't try to stride up and challenge you to a wrassling match. They'd silently approach behind a picket sentry and slit his throat, then depending on whether they're going for shock and awe or silent death horror decide whether to leave the body behind or not.

When they have some numbers they'll try something daring like riding a missile into the pentagon equivalent and proceeding to kill the entire departments of defense and homeland security, but they're more than capable of "Astarte subtlety" even if that means silently breaking someone's neck so hard it comes off and they're left looking foolish with a human head in their hands.

Butcher of Vraks
30-07-2010, 18:20
I can't find any information on chapters called Shadow Wolves and Infinity knights (possibly you meant the EKnights of Eternity), but I admit there were some which are confirmed destroyed (I don't count chapters reduced in strength, but still standing). I stand corrected.

The Shadow Wolves are mentioned in the novel Helsreach.

Lord_Crull
31-07-2010, 23:44
The eldar get bitchslapped in EVERY codex. Marines haven't been dished half the pain they have.

With some interest while reading the latest White Dwarf the army fluff for the Muderva Chaos army.l The Eldar lost not one, not two, not three................are you ready for this Eldar players?

Four Craftworlds ''bled and died''

In addition the defeat of three more Avatars is described. I kid you not. But then again it's White Dwarf fluff so I don't know if it counts or not.

Hellebore
31-07-2010, 23:47
The dying race concept has become more and more of a farce, as has the importance and gravity of an Avatar.

They can't be doing it by accident. You can't have 7+ avatars killed in publications over the last ~4 years by accident. It's one of the few instances where I assign malice instead of ignorance.

Hellebore

Green-is-best
01-08-2010, 00:07
Greater daemons die all the time in the fluff and the Avatar is, for all intents and purposes, a greater daemon of Khaine. Hell, Aurellian and a company of Grey Knight terminators defeated a daemon Primarch, 12+ Bloodthirsters, and a horde of lesser daemons at the same time. That makes Calgar's Avatar punching seems pretty measured in comparison.

Hellebore
01-08-2010, 00:11
Greater daemons don't die 'all the time' in fluff. Bloodthirsters were mentioned in the latest BA codex, but they certainly haven't made it in previous ones.

12 bloodthirsters and angron were defeated by 100 grey knights. If you assume Angron to be equal to two bloodthirsters (his current apocalypse rules don't back this up but anyway) then that's an average of 7.14 grey knights to ever bloodthirster. Hardly the one on one we get so often with avatars.

And in that instance only a handful survived. It wasn't the mighty victory given in other stories (like how the sanguinor simply walked all over one).

Hellebore

Green-is-best
01-08-2010, 01:21
They die at least as frequently as avatars. Two died in the 3rd Vraks book, at least one of which was in single combat. And, the one that died in single combat was the most powerful Bloodthirster ever summoned. And he was killed by an Inquisitor. At least Avatars are killed by Chapter Masters and Primarchs.

Rat Catcher
01-08-2010, 01:47
They die at least as frequently as avatars. Two died in the 3rd Vraks book, at least one of which was in single combat. And, the one that died in single combat was the most powerful Bloodthirster ever summoned. And he was killed by an Inquisitor. At least Avatars are killed by Chapter Masters and Primarchs.

You're trying to approach this argument from a logical standpoint; your first mistake.

Every xeno player feels that it is his army that is the most abused, or is the least loved by Games Workshop. :D

Hellebore
01-08-2010, 02:17
You're trying to approach this argument from a logical standpoint; your first mistake.

Every xeno player feels that it is his army that is the most abused, or is the least loved by Games Workshop. :D

:rolleyes:


Horus Heresy: Fulgrim kills an avatar (and this one I'm only annoyed about how pathetically it fights, not that it died to a primarch)
Codex Space Marines: Calgar kills an Avatar
Codex Chaos Daemons: Keeper of Secrets infiltrates a craftworld bypassing the most psychically sensitive deamon warning system in the galaxy and possesses an avatar without a fight...
Codex Planetstrike: Leman Russ tanks shoot a bridge and the avatar, unable to swim, is swept away setting the river on fire (there may be a dead avatar in codex imperial guard but I can't remember)
Codex Tyranids: Several Carnifexes kill the Iyanden Avatar - despite the avatar being the one that originally dealt the deathblow to the swarm leader. He was retconned from hero of the craftworld to paste on the floor.
Codex Blood Angels: The Sanguinor kills an Avatar
Latest WD: four avatars are killed at once


Until codex blood angels, the only mention of defeated bloodthirsters (or indeed any greater daemons) that I can find is in the first battle for Armageddon story (which is ~17 years old), where an entire grey knight company is sacrificed to kill them. Not just walking up to them and defeating them, but actually dying to stop them.

Evidence is evidence. Just because you may not like where it points does not negate its validity.

Hellebore

Drasanil
01-08-2010, 03:32
With some interest while reading the latest White Dwarf the army fluff for the Muderva Chaos army.l The Eldar lost not one, not two, not three................are you ready for this Eldar players?

Four Craftworlds ''bled and died''

In addition the defeat of three more Avatars is described. I kid you not. But then again it's White Dwarf fluff so I don't know if it counts or not.

:eyebrows:

For reals?

Wow, some one at Games Worshop really must hate eldar... I can't wait till they get their new codex and see how many Avatars Eldrad gets to pwn in single combat.

Lord_Crull
01-08-2010, 04:14
:rolleyes:


Horus Heresy: Fulgrim kills an avatar (and this one I'm only annoyed about how pathetically it fights, not that it died to a primarch)
Codex Space Marines: Calgar kills an Avatar
Codex Chaos Daemons: Keeper of Secrets infiltrates a craftworld bypassing the most psychically sensitive deamon warning system in the galaxy and possesses an avatar without a fight...
Codex Planetstrike: Leman Russ tanks shoot a bridge and the avatar, unable to swim, is swept away setting the river on fire (there may be a dead avatar in codex imperial guard but I can't remember)
Codex Tyranids: Several Carnifexes kill the Iyanden Avatar - despite the avatar being the one that originally dealt the deathblow to the swarm leader. He was retconned from hero of the craftworld to paste on the floor.
Codex Blood Angels: The Sanguinor kills an Avatar
Latest WD: four avatars are killed at once


Until codex blood angels, the only mention of defeated bloodthirsters (or indeed any greater daemons) that I can find is in the first battle for Armageddon story (which is ~17 years old), where an entire grey knight company is sacrificed to kill them. Not just walking up to them and defeating them, but actually dying to stop them.

Evidence is evidence. Just because you may not like where it points does not negate its validity.

Hellebore

Njal defeated a Greater Daemon. M'kachen was killed a couple of times by Stern.

Drasanil
01-08-2010, 04:20
Njal defeated a Greater Daemon. M'kachen was killed a couple of times by Stern.

Both of them were psykers, one of which is the head of an order of semi-religious shaman warriors and the other is a super-magical shiny anti-daemon paladin.

In other words they were defeated by things which are trained and expected to stand a reasonnable chance of defeating such creatures, which is not quite the same as having Joe-Bob from down the street put on a powerboot and kick a Great Unclean One in his 'urty bitz.

Iracundus
01-08-2010, 04:20
Until codex blood angels, the only mention of defeated bloodthirsters (or indeed any greater daemons) that I can find is in the first battle for Armageddon story (which is ~17 years old), where an entire grey knight company is sacrificed to kill them. Not just walking up to them and defeating them, but actually dying to stop them.


Well that may be a bit overstated. The WH Codex shows that Captain Stern triumphed over the Lord of Change before and banished it.

Also in the Siege of Vraks, the Inquisitor Lord (who also suffers from Mary Sue syndrome) ends up banishing a Bloodthirster. The Grey Knights in that conflict also banish a Great Unclean One.



Wow, some one at Games Worshop really must hate eldar... I can't wait till they get their new codex and see how many Avatars Eldrad gets to pwn in single combat.

It could be a lack of other options because the Eldar and Tau are the only described major alien races that have highly developed civilizations with institutions similar to humanity's. Of these, the Eldar are the ones with big monstrous creatures in the form of the Avatar.

However, that said, I think there could be a case of "tall poppy syndrome" at work here as well, maybe not even consciously. The Eldar are not the macho manly stereotype that GW seems to love pushing with Space Marines, Imperial Guard characters, or Chaos Space Marines and their Greater Daemons (particularly the macho muscle bound Bloodthirster). That and their often described arrogance, or foppish mincing stereotype (as perceived by some players) may result in this seeming desire to bring them low.

The Eldar historically in GW's publications usually are relegated to 2 roles:

1) The mysterious aliens that show up either with the McGuffin gadget or with advice on how to get it for the main protagonist. They can then marvel at humanity's resourcefulness or willpower in spite of humanity's "crudeness". Sometimes they act as sidekick allies though usually still in a supportive manner to the human protagonist

2) As haughty wily antagonists that then get thwarted by the manly protagonist that makes a mockery of all that useless subtlety and thinking by using his brawn to smash or kill his way through everything.

Lord_Crull
01-08-2010, 04:28
Both of them were psykers, one of which is the head of an order of semi-religious shaman warriors and the other is a super-magical shiny anti-daemon paladin.

In other words they were defeated by things which are trained and expected to stand a reasonnable chance of defeating such creatures, which is not quite the same as having Joe-Bob from down the street put on a powerboot and kick a Great Unclean One in his 'urty bitz.

I'm not debating that I'm simply pointing out were Greater Daemons have been slain.

Drasanil
01-08-2010, 04:48
I'm not debating that I'm simply pointing out were Greater Daemons have been slain.

Oops, my apologies then:)

FarseerMatt
01-08-2010, 07:10
Wow, some one at Games Worshop really must hate eldar... I can't wait till they get their new codex and see how many Avatars Eldrad gets to pwn in single combat.

The quote has been taken slightly out of context. The story of the "Murderval of Chaos" goes:


The war-ravaged Eldar world of Lohaic bears silent testament to a grand alliance of daemons that assailed the planet in a battle that raged for several years. Four Eldar craftworlds bled and died to prevent the daemons gaining access to a sundered portal into the webway, the mysterious realm of the Eldar.

The war is fought entirely on the planet Lohaic, and the craftworlds in question are almost certainly far removed from the fighting. The point the writer is trying to get across is that the warriors of those craftworlds suffered heavy losses during the campaign. Which is perfectly believable, and suitably tragic. No, what strikes me as odd is this:


Even as the lithe Keeper of Secrets directed the assault on the shimmering gateways at the heart of the world, three Avatars of the Eldar's own deity opposed him. There was no honour in that duel, however, as the Mouldkin, oozing Beasts of Nurgle, mired the fiery forms of the Avatars even as Sssair and his allies closed in for the kill.

I don't understand why Khaine's avatars have started to be portrayed as expecting "honourable" duels (and then suffering for it, like in the Tyranid codex). The Eldar themselves are rarely portrayed as fighting "honourably". Which by the way I am fine with - the Eldar are too pragmatic and, frankly, not stupid enough to try and do so. You can have a concept of honour that drives your soldiers to bond and to persevere, but no way in hell should "honour" have a place in your actual battle tactics.

Ironically, on the list of people who allow "honourable tactics" to cloud their judgement, I would place Marines and even Orks above Eldar. It's all part of the Eldar's traditional portrayal; they are sinister, unpredictable, and ruthlessly pragmatic when it comes to protecting their own kind. Since when did they start falling prey to honour before reason?

Incidentally, I guess it's confirmed that you can have several Avatars in one place at one time. Now that must be a sight. :)

TheDireAvenger
01-08-2010, 07:41
Does anyone else find it a bit strange that in BL/FFG fluff a couple of marines can wipe literally hundreds of enemies like gaunts without breaking a sweat and in table top the few marines will die just like anayone else when 30 hormagaunts charge them?

I mean when did fluff take a sharp turn to the left and vanished completely out of the sight of what happens in tabletop?

Maybe this is a GAME FIRST fluff second. If Space Marines could destroy everyone like that why would anyone play anything other than Space Marines?

:eyebrows:

Also Marines are vastly overrated. They have 1000 men in a chapter, they can't do anything significant on the scale of planetary invasions or massive fleet engagements. I'd rather have 5 Guard divisions any day with my bane blades, super-heavy tanks, Thunderbolts, TITANS and the Imperial Navy Battleships.

It's too bad Marines don't get any of the above. Even in the official fluff it says Space Marines are outnumbered 1 million to 1. Would you rather have 1 million guard or 1 space marine?

N0-1_H3r3
01-08-2010, 09:23
I don't understand why Khaine's avatars have started to be portrayed as expecting "honourable" duels (and then suffering for it, like in the Tyranid codex).
Precisely; this is even stranger as one of Khaine's defining traits is being a psychotic murderer... an honourable warrior he was not. The hands of the Avatars continually drip with blood in a manner symbolic of Khaine's ruthless brutality.

Tactical Retreat!
01-08-2010, 09:49
:eyebrows:

For reals?

Wow, some one at Games Worshop really must hate eldar... I can't wait till they get their new codex and see how many Avatars Eldrad gets to pwn in single combat.

Me I can't wait to read about how many Avatars the Avatar will own in single combat.

Lord_Crull
01-08-2010, 11:36
Also Marines are vastly overrated. They have 1000 men in a chapter, they can't do anything significant on the scale of planetary invasions or massive fleet engagements. I'd rather have 5 Guard divisions any day with my bane blades, super-heavy tanks, Thunderbolts, TITANS and the Imperial Navy Battleships.

It's too bad Marines don't get any of the above.

Nethier do the Guard. Titans are apart of the Titan Legions on Mars, they are not Guard. and save for the Palatines all Thunderbolts are apart of the Imperial Navy. And Imperial Navy battleships are not Guard nor do they come under the command of your average Guard officer. (Not to mention Marines have Battle BArges) In addition Super-heavy tanks are quite rare.

UselessThing
02-08-2010, 02:37
Would you rather have 1 million guard or 1 space marine?

That depends entirely upon how awesome the Space Marine is. :-)

TheDireAvenger
02-08-2010, 02:39
That depends entirely upon how awesome the Space Marine is. :-)

Regular tec marine.

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 03:37
I agree with some of the points you've been making Avenger, but your question doesn't help. In certain scenarios, that one Space Marine can be vastly more important than a million guardsmen.

Drasanil
02-08-2010, 03:49
I agree with some of the points you've been making Avenger, but your question doesn't help. In certain scenarios, that one Space Marine can be vastly more important than a million guardsmen.

Explain how. Marines are good, but they're not that good, even GW hasn't stretched it that far.... yet:cheese:

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 04:26
Everyone who says 100 Space Marines equal 1000 guardsmen, or one million guardsmen are superior to one Space Marine, or hell, one million Space Marines are superior to one Guardsmen as a blanket general statement is just wrong. The context in which you placing the scenario is everything. Numbers and individual quality simply don't matter.

Example 1: You are commanding ten million guardsmen in the siege of a capital city. What is more useful- one million additional guardsmen or a single, five centuries old Space Marine Commander who has seen more battle then all of those guardsmen combined? If you give a sensible commander the choice of eleven million soldiers or ten million soldiers with either an advisor or superior officer whose entire life has been commanding warriors with an enhanced brain, he'll choose the latter.

Example 2: Three million Orks are charging you in the middle of a trench ridden battlefield. You have either the choice of one million additional Guardsmen or one hundred Space Marines. No one can make a legitimate argument that says 100 bolters, give or take, is superior to a million lasguns, give or take.

Example 3: Thirty chapters of Space Marines are about to make planetfall to destroy he impregnable fortress of a traitorous warlord. One veteran Guardsmen who knows the city can infiltrate and end the war before it begins with a single sniper round.

Hellebore
02-08-2010, 04:40
Example 4: One grot in orbit presses the big shiny red button when da boss isn't looking and accidentally exterminatus' the planet before anyone can get down for a good fight.

It reminds me of the attempts people make at placing historical characters in ranks of 'awesomeness'. Like, because Sanguinius can beat a blood thirster, the emperor should.

If that were true then: Warboss>Emperor>Sanguinius>Bloodthirster because we all remember with fondness how Horus saved the emperor from being strangled by an ork (which originally was JUST an ork but got larger in the telling).

X can beat Y and Y can beat X given the right context, even if Y is ostensibly weaker than X - it helps if you have an anti X cannon....

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 06:01
Ironically, I'd fear the grot more than anything else on our lists. ;)

Hellebore
02-08-2010, 06:12
That's because grotz are teh win! For da revolushun!

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 06:29
You wasted a perfectly good opportunity to plug your rules development thread. ;)

Before the obvious counter argument rises....

(The one in which people say "in almost every situation, Space Marines are teh winz")

...understand the point I'm making. Space Marines are awesome. Forged to be so, by the Emperor and his master, Alan Merrett. But even Big Al (not the dinosaur) understands that there are moments in which a human touch (or lasgun touch) does better or more efficient work than a Space Marine and his trusty bolter.

And for the record, I am a Marine fanboy. I got in because of Marines, played Marines, and as you can see by my sig, I write for Marines. But I still think they have their limits. Besides, can't we all agree that Marines with flaws and limitations are even more heroic?

Rat Catcher
02-08-2010, 06:30
If that were true then: Warboss>Emperor>Sanguinius>Bloodthirster because we all remember with fondness how Horus saved the emperor from being strangled by an ork (which originally was JUST an ork but got larger in the telling).

Could you cite the source where it says the Warboss who attacked the Emperor was "just a normal Ork"?

I've always personally felt the Emperor allowed the situation to happen, in an attempt to make his bond that much stronger with Horus.

GrogDaTyrant
02-08-2010, 06:30
would you read the stories if the hero's didnt kick ass.

the stories are written to inspire you to get excited about your army/hobby and buy more product.

I realize I'm responding to a comment that's about 6 pages back... But yes. Yes I would. In fact, Discworld's Rincewind and Ciaphis Cain come to mind.

If anything, the 'ludicrously OTT' style of the Space Marine protagonist novels are EXACTLY why I don't read them.

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 06:32
Could you cite the source where it says the Warboss who attacked the Emperor was "just a normal Ork"?

I've always personally felt the Emperor allowed the situation to happen, in an attempt to make his bond that much stronger with Horus.

He's referring to a story where Horus saved the Emperor from being strangled by a Warboss. If I'm not mistaken its in the Index Astartes: Black Legion but it may have come from an earlier source. Its intention was to show the bond between the Emperor and Horus, but it has undermined the increasing levels of awesome that various other sources claim.

EDIT: And for your second comment, that really is a blatant deus ex machina. I'm not saying that you're going to turn out to be wrong, but if it is the truth, then it is truly a horrible piece of writing.

Rat Catcher
02-08-2010, 06:37
He's referring to a story where Horus saved the Emperor from being strangled by a Warboss. If I'm not mistaken its in the Index Astartes: Black Legion but it may have come from an earlier source. Its intention was to show the bond between the Emperor and Horus, but it has undermined the increasing levels of awesome that various other sources claim.

I'm aware of what he's referring to. I was asking where it says the ork in question is a "normal Ork", and not a massive Warboss.


EDIT: And for your second comment, that really is a blatant deus ex machina. I'm not saying that you're going to turn out to be wrong, but if it is the truth, then it is truly a horrible piece of writing.

You're right, Games Workshop hold themselves to a higher standard. :rolleyes:


I realize I'm responding to a comment that's about 6 pages back... But yes. Yes I would. In fact, Discworld's Rincewind and Ciaphis Cain come to mind.

If anything, the 'ludicrously OTT' style of the Space Marine protagonist novels are EXACTLY why I don't read them.

Ciaphas Cain novels aren't over-the-top? Oh, come on.

The man has plot-armor thicker than the fledgling Tau empire. He always manages to do the most incredible things "by accident"; and he's a mere human.

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 06:42
I'm aware of what he's referring to. I was asking where it says the ork in question is a "normal Ork", and not a massive Warboss.

Oh. Then yeah, I've only heard of it referred to as a warboss, but warboss or no, the implications are still there. There wasn't anything special about the Warboss. He's a big ork as far as we know, and somehow he ends up strangling the almighty emperor. There are actually plenty of perfectly logical explanations as to how this happens, but frankly all of them involve the Emperor being rather fallible.


You're right, Games Workshop hold themselves to a higher standard. :rolleyes:

Hehe, never said they did. ;) I will never trust them again after the Storm of Chaos, either. Or Battle for the Abyss. Still though, you did say that your own feelings agreed with the idea, and that idea upsets me dearly. :D

Hellebore
02-08-2010, 06:54
Could you cite the source where it says the Warboss who attacked the Emperor was "just a normal Ork"?

I've always personally felt the Emperor allowed the situation to happen, in an attempt to make his bond that much stronger with Horus.

Surely:

pg178 Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned (see attachment).

I'm sure someone will use the argument that 'it doesn't say it's NOT a warboss' but that particular segment was rewritten into the IA article and specially changed it to Ork Warboss. If it originally meant warboss it should have said so and if it always meant warboss the transcription into the IA should have left it as 'ork' because we would 'know' it was a warboss.

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 06:58
To my mind, it lends the Emperor a VASTLY more noble aspect if he can be assailed by an Ork in such a fashion, even a particularly powerful one.

It means that when he takes to the field he takes many of the same risks that even his lowliest warriors do. It means that the Custodian Guard have an actual serious job to do rather than wait around for assassins. And it's a lot more interesting than the Emperor showing up to every battlefield with a big red I WIN button on his bald spot.

Rat Catcher
02-08-2010, 07:01
Oh. Then yeah, I've only heard of it referred to as a warboss, but warboss or no, the implications are still there. There wasn't anything special about the Warboss. He's a big ork as far as we know, and somehow he ends up strangling the almighty emperor. There are actually plenty of perfectly logical explanations as to how this happens, but frankly all of them involve the Emperor being rather fallible.

Hehe, never said they did. ;) I will never trust them again after the Storm of Chaos, either. Or Battle for the Abyss. Still though, you did say that your own feelings agreed with the idea, and that idea upsets me dearly. :D

Call me a "fan boy" if you like, but that is exactly why I think as I do. I cannot, no, will not, imagine a man capable of falcon punching the four Ruinous Powers out of a possessed son with a single thought can be choked by a brain-dead, muscle-bound, fungi.

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 07:05
Call me a "fan boy" if you like, but that is exactly why I think as I do. I cannot, no, will not, imagine a man capable of falcon punching the four Ruinous Powers out of a possessed son with a single thought can be choked by a brain-dead, muscle-bound, fungi.

What if the Emperor had been severely wounded by a lucky stompa shot? What if the Emperor's position had been caught by surprise and suddenly overrun by millions of greenskins? What if the Emperor was, as Hellebore's theories occasionally drift toward, a simple human psychically masquerading as a giant Primarch-like being and his concentration slipped?

As I frequently am required to say now, no sarcasm intended in these questions. Just pure intellectual curiosity about understanding your position. :)

Hellebore
02-08-2010, 07:06
The fact that you don't read a single piece of background where the emperor nuked a planet with his mind, or did anything super powerful (barring destroying a primarch's soul - something he created - perhaps he actually just took that part of his own soul back which shouldn't have been too difficult) to me is evidence that he couldn't do those things. That he wasn't 'teh roxxors' to the nth degree. Powerful yes. Charismatic. HELL YES (40,000 years old and you should've learned all the pick up lines by now).

But if he had the power he is often attributed as having, then why the hell did he need the primarchs or marines at all? He could have supermaned across the galaxy, defeating everyone singlehandedly or changing their minds with a thought. Why send millions to die when he could have just said 'this IS the galactic empire you're looking for' to everyone?

In my mind he was a human body with a massively powerful soul gestalt. His primarchs were there to do what he could not - fight the enemy face to face. The primarchs were his will made manifest, his intellectual might in a mailed fist, his thought paradigm in martial aspect.

And many more adjective laden metaphors.

What he wasn't was SuperGokuSpaceJesusMan.

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 07:07
The Emperor doesn't use pick up lines. They've retconned the Sensei. ;)

Hellebore
02-08-2010, 07:15
The Emperor doesn't use pick up lines. They've retconned the Sensei. ;)

I know. :(

In a thread about there being no primarchs/space marines (where I was arguing the 40k universe wouldn't look that different) I used the sensei as literal sons that fought with him rather than primarchs.

For those that keep citing the idea that the emperor scared the crap out of the chaos gods and they fled from him, the original story (a few pages after the previous quote I gave) says the following.

It says the chaos gods retreat from their pawn after the Emperor virtually destroy his body. Sort of like what happens with all chaos champions - the gods' favour is withdrawn when you are no longer of use to them.

Hellebore

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 07:17
Call me a "fan boy" if you like, but that is exactly why I think as I do. I cannot, no, will not, imagine a man capable of falcon punching the four Ruinous Powers out of a possessed son with a single thought can be choked by a brain-dead, muscle-bound, fungi.

You need to differentiate between what the Emperor's followers imagine and believe he is capable of and what the Emperor has been objectively described to have been. The Emperor has never been depicted as infallible or omnipotent. His followers may believe so but some of them also believe he created the entire universe and all of warp space.

What characters believe in 40K and what is objectively true about the universe can be two entirely different things.



They've retconned the Sensei.

No they haven't. The last hint about the Sensei was an in-character Inquisitor's belief about what a Star Child cult and some alleged Sensei were. He believed they were Chaos followers but that doesn't mean they were. Inquisitors are not infallible either.

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 07:20
@Iracundus: Good to know, actually. I always liked them, other than the collective name.

@Hellebore: Very interesting bit. I was in the Emperor scared them crowd, but after reading that I just don't know. Although it still begs the question as to why they pulled back.

Rat Catcher
02-08-2010, 07:22
What if the Emperor had been severely wounded by a lucky stompa shot? What if the Emperor's position had been caught by surprise and suddenly overrun by millions of greenskins? What if the Emperor was, as Hellebore's theories occasionally drift toward, a simple human psychically masquerading as a giant Primarch-like being and his concentration slipped?

As I frequently am required to say now, no sarcasm intended in these questions. Just pure intellectual curiosity about understanding your position. :)

It bothers me because it's a bad plot device to show just how close they were.

Horus: "Look dad, I saved your life! No hands!"
The Emperor: "That's ma' boy!" /ruffles up Horus' hair

It also ends up being used as an argument for jaded xeno players about the "power level" of the Emperor. It's just an atrocious piece of work. Battle for the Abyss would be hard pressed to match just how terrible it is; and that's a bold statement..

Hellebore
02-08-2010, 07:28
@Iracundus: Good to know, actually. I always liked them, other than the collective name.

@Hellebore: Very interesting bit. I was in the Emperor scared them crowd, but after reading that I just don't know. Although it still begs the question as to why they pulled back.

Well, it could be that he 'failed' or that his body was so broken it just wouldn't work anymore. Tzeentch might have decided to give up on him because it was Tuesday, Nurgle because he wasn't depressed enough or Khorne because it had been at LEAST 79 seconds since he last took a skull for him.

My main problem with the concept of the emperor scaring 3 chaos gods is that collectively they HAVE to be more powerful than him. The emperor at most was made of a few tens of thousands of human psyker souls. Tzeentch should have been made of far more than that, so wouldn't that make tzeentch more powerful alone? Hell the number of psykers killed and their souls dedicated to Khorne 'should' exceed the number within the Emperor. That and the chaos gods continued to grow in power every second as more and more souls joined them.

As the chaos gods were made of soul energy dedicated to them as well as the emotions that feed them, the emperor was just a soul gestalt of psykers.

It's like being told that 1+1=3. They should be equivalent and yet someone people come to a completely different conclusion.

If the emperor received some extra dimensional (non 40k law) supa power that circumvented normal arithmetic then it would make sense, but currently the background really doesn't add up to 1 emperor > 3 chaos gods. At least not to the point where all three collectively wet themselves and run screaming because the emperor is so mighty.

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 07:33
Well, it could be that he 'failed' or that his body was so broken it just wouldn't work anymore. Tzeentch might have decided to give up on him because it was Tuesday, Nurgle because he wasn't depressed enough or Khorne because it had been at LEAST 79 seconds since he last took a skull for him.

My main problem with the concept of the emperor scaring 3 chaos gods is that collectively they HAVE to be more powerful than him. The emperor at most was made of a few tens of thousands of human psyker souls. Tzeentch should have been made of far more than that, so wouldn't that make tzeentch more powerful alone? Hell the number of psykers killed and their souls dedicated to Khorne 'should' exceed the number within the Emperor. That and the chaos gods continued to grow in power every second as more and more souls joined them.

As the chaos gods were made of soul energy dedicated to them as well as the emotions that feed them, the emperor was just a soul gestalt of psykers.

It's like being told that 1+1=3. They should be equivalent and yet someone people come to a completely different conclusion.

If the emperor received some extra dimensional (non 40k law) supa power that circumvented normal arithmetic then it would make sense, but currently the background really doesn't add up to 1 emperor > 3 chaos gods. At least not to the point where all three collectively wet themselves and run screaming because the emperor is so mighty.

Hellebore

I agree for the most part, but I can't rule out the possibility that the Emperor was actually that powerful for an as of yet unexplained reason. The fact that he seems immune to possession and his sons are largely corrupted only when he is absent would lead me to believe he is extremely resistance to the powers of the gods. Even the Old Ones/Eldar Gods/whatever you want to call them could not boast this.

I'm not saying the reason will be good or ever given, but it still can exist.

Rat Catcher
02-08-2010, 07:34
The fact that you don't read a single piece of background where the emperor nuked a planet with his mind, or did anything super powerful (barring destroying a primarch's soul - something he created - perhaps he actually just took that part of his own soul back which shouldn't have been too difficult) to me is evidence that he couldn't do those things. That he wasn't 'teh roxxors' to the nth degree. Powerful yes. Charismatic. HELL YES (40,000 years old and you should've learned all the pick up lines by now).

Like when he bests the Void Dragon? A C'tan? Binds it -- and entombs it on Mars?

The Void Dragon himself recalls the Emperor doing this to him. In the story The Last Church the Emperor stares at a beautiful mural, and fondly recalls doing battle with him. How is that not "powerful"?


But if he had the power he is often attributed as having, then why the hell did he need the primarchs or marines at all? He could have supermaned across the galaxy, defeating everyone singlehandedly or changing their minds with a thought. Why send millions to die when he could have just said 'this IS the galactic empire you're looking for' to everyone?

Because he has always wanted to guide mankind from behind the scenes, not directly control it. The crusade is his breaking point; he realizes that humans are too flawed to grab their destiny by the throat and wrestle it to the ground. He wants humanity to do this, take what is theirs, even if he has to be more forceful with his guiding. He does not want to do it himself.


What he wasn't was SuperGokuSpaceJesusMan.

Nobody said he was. You're cheapening this discussion with horrible memes and crimes against humanity, like Dragon Ball Z. :D

Rat Catcher
02-08-2010, 07:52
Dire Avenger; I was typing a lengthy response to your volatile message when I noticed your signature.

You play Eldar and Imperial Guard. Your entire rant is about just how awesome your chosen armies are, and you manage to be extremely inflammatory towards the original poster while doing so.

How can you really call him out as a "fan boy" or "troll" when you're using the tools of both?

Hellebore
02-08-2010, 08:10
Like when he bests the Void Dragon? A C'tan? Binds it -- and entombs it on Mars?

The Void Dragon himself recalls the Emperor doing this to him. In the story The Last Church the Emperor stares at a beautiful mural, and fondly recalls doing battle with him. How is that not "powerful"?


afaik the legend of that event is given by a rambling techpriest and even in the book isn't taken as fact.

From an objective perspective it doesn't make sense because the c'tan built their tombs on DEAD planets with no life to avoid the enslavers. The Void Dragon being on earth literally makes no sense.

Also, a c'tan awakened from a 60 million year slumber is not exactly at its fighting peak. Uriel Ventris threatened Nightbringer with a meltabomb and that scared it. Without sustenance the background says they wither away. The nightbringer immediately fled to the nearest star to feed because it was so weak.



Because he has always wanted to guide mankind from behind the scenes, not directly control it. The crusade is his breaking point; he realizes that humans are too flawed to grab their destiny by the throat and wrestle it to the ground. He wants humanity to do this, take what is theirs, even if he has to be more forceful with his guiding. He does not want to do it himself.


Completely agree that the Great Crusade was the emperor's breaking point. In several threads that's been my conclusion. But he goes militant and still doesn't nuke people. It's inconsistent. He steps out from the shadows and with all this power he's SUPPOSED to have he still doesn't use it.

He certainly doesn't want humanity to do it itself, otherwise he would have left them alone. Instead he created genetically engineered storm troopers to forcibly convert all human worlds to his ideal. He didn't accept 'get lost' as an answer.

But if he has the power ascribed to him, he could have done the same thing himself and faster.

The emperor only has potential power because we never really see what he can do. The only things we get are killing Horus, masterminding the design of the primarchs and space marines and directing the astronomicon (something that Malcador a normal human psyker still did).

His militant stance and galaxy spanning crusade are at odds with the image of the virtually omnipotent emperor so many people espouse. And if people start getting into the inscrutable Yaweh style 'the emperor moves in mysterious ways' as a cop out excuse to explain away all the seemingly dumb things, I may just eat someone.



Nobody said he was. You're cheapening this discussion with horrible memes and crimes against humanity, like Dragon Ball Z. :D

Well the way some fans talk about him that's how it comes off...;)

Hellebore

Rat Catcher
02-08-2010, 08:45
afaik the legend of that event is given by a rambling techpriest and even in the book isn't taken as fact.

He's the guardian of the Dragon, chosen by the Emperor. He is connected to the Void Dragons mind, and can sense his thoughts, feelings, etc.


From an objective perspective it doesn't make sense because the c'tan built their tombs on DEAD planets with no life to avoid the enslavers. The Void Dragon being on earth literally makes no sense.

But you're only objective when it comes to disproving the Emperors power.


Also, a c'tan awakened from a 60 million year slumber is not exactly at its fighting peak. Uriel Ventris threatened Nightbringer with a meltabomb and that scared it. Without sustenance the background says they wither away. The nightbringer immediately fled to the nearest star to feed because it was so weak.

The tales that lead the Emperor to the Dragon make note of it having been on Earth a great while, and that it was feeding on humans. It's not like it awoke to the Emperor sitting on its chest, punching it in the mouth. I also fail to see how defeating a god in any shape is not impressive.

Can you cite a lore character that you consider "impressive". I'm quite curious who is up to your standards.


Completely agree that the Great Crusade was the emperor's breaking point. In several threads that's been my conclusion. But he goes militant and still doesn't nuke people. It's inconsistent. He steps out from the shadows and with all this power he's SUPPOSED to have he still doesn't use it.

He certainly doesn't want humanity to do it itself, otherwise he would have left them alone. Instead he created genetically engineered storm troopers to forcibly convert all human worlds to his ideal. He didn't accept 'get lost' as an answer.

He wanted humanity to unite, he realized he had to force them to do so. To do this he needed an army. It's quite simple.


But if he has the power ascribed to him, he could have done the same thing himself and faster.

I don't think so.


The emperor only has potential power because we never really see what he can do. The only things we get are killing Horus, masterminding the design of the primarchs and space marines and directing the astronomicon (something that Malcador a normal human psyker still did).

His militant stance and galaxy spanning crusade are at odds with the image of the virtually omnipotent emperor so many people espouse. And if people start getting into the inscrutable Yaweh style 'the emperor moves in mysterious ways' as a cop out excuse to explain away all the seemingly dumb things, I may just eat someone.

I don't know what to tell you, because it bothers me more than anything else in the hobby. He's all knowing, but fallible. He's powerful beyond comprehension but gets choked by an Ork. It's just bad writing.

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 08:55
I don't know what to tell you, because it bothers me more than anything else in the hobby. He's all knowing, but fallible. He's powerful beyond comprehension but gets choked by an Ork. It's just bad writing.

Or perhaps he's NOT all knowing and NOT powerful beyond comprehension as you keep repeatedly assuming.

You seem to be applying the fallacious logic of "begging the question", by first assuming the conclusion to be true:

1) The Emperor is awesome and powerful

and therefore disregarding and ignoring all evidence that doesn't agree or that might disprove your conclusion and dismissing it as "bad writing."

One reaches a conclusion based on what evidence says, not the other way around. So far the evidence from disparate sources, including for example how the Emperor's story about the duel with Horus from the Emperor's POV describes how he could not see past that point in the future, show the Emperor was neither omniscient, nor omnipotent. Accounts from objective points of view or from the actual Emperor are far more reliable than the beliefs or ramblings of other in-character sources, which are skewed by both bias and limited knowledge.

Rat Catcher
02-08-2010, 09:42
Are you quite literally incapable of having a relaxed conversation, Iracundus? I'm honestly curious just where all of your nerd rage stems from.

You literally seem unable to ever have a discussion where you're not rude. I bet you're an absolute peach to be around; but then perhaps that's me applying the fallacious logic that anyone would ever want to be around you in the first place.

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 09:59
Resorting to ad hominem and avoiding the issue is usually the last refuge of those unable to formulate an adequate response when their logic or argument is questioned.

Rat Catcher
02-08-2010, 10:04
Resorting to ad hominem and avoiding the issue is usually the last refuge of those unable to formulate an adequate response when their logic or argument is questioned.

You have a talent for avoiding the issue; one can look at your posting history and see that. So you would be the resident expert.

Opposed to your passive-aggressive cowardice, I'll take this route any day. Your snide and inflammatory posting style doesn't deserve the decency of a normal response.

Hellebore managed quite well to discuss his stance with me; and I was happy to do so as he always showed his stance, and never resorted to becoming a rude prat in the process. More than I can say for you.

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 10:07
Opposed to your passive-aggressive cowardice, I'll take this route any day. Your snide and inflammatory posting style doesn't deserve the decency of a normal response.

Hellebore managed quite well to discuss his stance with me; and I was happy to do so as he always showed his stance, and never resorted to becoming a rude prat in the process. More than I can say for you.

The only one that seems to be raging and frothing at the mouth seems to be you. Your flawed and fallacious argument was pointed out, which is an entirely reasonable thing to do in any thread discussion, and you have yet to provide any coherent or measured response addressing the actual topic or points raised other than attempting to launch personal attacks. The other posters on this forum and the moderators can clearly see which person is the one that is being irrational and inflammatory.

Rat Catcher
02-08-2010, 10:21
The only one that seems to be raging and frothing at the mouth seems to be you. Your flawed and fallacious argument was pointed out, which is an entirely reasonable thing to do in any thread discussion, and you have yet to provide any coherent or measured response addressing the actual topic or points raised other than attempting to launch personal attacks. The other posters on this forum and the moderators can clearly see which person is the one that is being irrational and inflammatory.

How was my argument flawed? I stated canon sources, and you rejected them as they're "the beliefs or ramblings of other in-character sources". You choose when to be objective in the argument, and are completely hypocritical.

I have a news flash for you, Iracundus. The vast majority of Warhammers fluff is purposely left open to debate so that conversations can take place. Things are left unanswered; and some accounts are from the personal views of in-game figures who have limited knowledge. That doesn't somehow nullify all of it because you say so.

The Emperor did some truly impressive things. Could I be building him up more than was intended by GW? Possibly; but I do so with canon sources, and form an opinion based on what I read.

As for me "frothing at the mouth"; you are apparently as dramatic as you are petty.

Idaan
02-08-2010, 10:28
The tales that lead the Emperor to the Dragon make note of it having been on Earth a great while, and that it was feeding on humans. It's not like it awoke to the Emperor sitting on its chest, punching it in the mouth. I also fail to see how defeating a god in any shape is not impressive.

I'm interested, where exactly does it say explicitly that it was on Earth? I'd like to see a direct quote if you will.

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 10:29
How was my argument flawed? I stated canon sources, and you rejected them as they're "the beliefs or ramblings of other in-character sources". You choose when to be objective in the argument, and are completely hypocritical.

The mention of the Ork was an objective source from a third party narrator as already cited and therefore is more reliable than any in-character reference. The story of the Emperor's limited precognition was from the Emperor's own POV. Those examples of the Emeperor's limitations alone more reliable than another fallible character relating a possibly mythological tale about what the Emperor might or might not have done, particularly when these accomplishments are not directly witnessed by the one telling the tale. You seem unable to distinguish between the varying levels of reliability of different sources or narrators.

Your continued reliance on ad hominem repeatedly shows the intellectual bankruptcy of your argument as you still continually avoid addressing your use of fallacious logic in a priori assuming your conclusion to be true. You have earlier in this thread outright refused to accept direct evidence to the contrary because it conflicts with your preconceived biases. That is not logic, but denial.

Rat Catcher
02-08-2010, 10:38
I'm interested, where exactly does it say explicitly that it was on Earth? I'd like to see a direct quote if you will.

In the novel Mechanicum, they mention "The Dragon of Mars". The Emperor himself defeats said creature (of godlike power who existed on Earth itself centuries ago, sometime during the 12th century, the text states during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian however) and then binds it, and entombs it on Mars.

I'll attempt to find you the direct quote mentioning Earth. I recall it was right before it made note of how the Dragon was devouring women, and the "knight" (the Emperor) arrived to do battle with it.


The mention of the Ork was an objective source from a third party narrator as already cited and therefore is more reliable than any in-character reference. The story of the Emperor's limited precognition was from the Emperor's own POV. Those examples of the Emeperor's limitations alone more reliable than another fallible character relating a possibly mythological tale about what the Emperor might or might not have done, particularly when these accomplishments are not directly witnessed by the one telling the tale. You seem unable to distinguish between the varying levels of reliability of different sources or narrators.

Not quite, or perhaps you failed to read my posts before you felt the need to reply.

I stated that the Void Dragon itself, recalled the Emperor doing combat with it -- and binding it in the prison it now resides in on Mars.

This is the C'tans POV. These are his memories. Please explain how that is any different than the source cited by Hellebore.

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 10:41
I stated that the Void Dragon itself, recalled the Emperor doing combat with it -- and binding it in the prison it now resides in on Mars.

This is the C'tans POV. These are his memories. Please explain how that is any different than the source cited by Hellebore.

For one, you have neither quoted nor cited it exactly as Hellebore has done with his. There is neither quote nor page number for any of your claims.

Rat Catcher
02-08-2010, 11:02
Mechanicum, beginning on page 358.


Dalia smelled the hot, dry air of another world, the spiced fragrances drifting from lands far away and countries as yet undiscovered. The cavern beneath the Noctis Labyrinthus faded from view, the silver lines that defied rational perception easing into obscurity and replaced with the soft curves of desert dunes and the vast expanse of a breathtakingly beautiful azure sky.

A ferocious heat enveloped her and she gasped as it hit her like an opened blast furnace. The vista was at once strange and familiar to her, and her fear faded as she suddenly understood where and when she was.

She stood on the baking sands of a high dune, looking over a wide river valley where a great city of sun-bleached stone reared up on a plateau of dark rock. From the gates of the city marched a solemn procession of women in white, bearing a silk-veiled litter of gold and jade.
‘You know where you are?’ said a voice behind her and she
turned to see Adept Semyon.
‘I think so,’ said Dalia. ‘This is Old Earth. Before Unification.’

Semyon nodded. ‘Long before Unification. The tribes of men are still divided and know nothing of the glories and perils beyond their world.’
‘And what is that city over there?’ asked Dalia.

‘Still thinking in such literal terms, girl,’ chuckled Semyon. ‘We are still in the cave of the Dragon. All this is a manipulation of your mind’s perception centres by the book to show you what needs to be shown. But in answer to your question, the city is called Cyrene and this is a representation of a land once known as Libya. It is an ancient land, though the people you see before you are far from the first to settle here. The Phoenicians came here first, men the Grekans, then the Romans, and finally the Arabii. Well, not finally, but that’s who rules now.’
‘And when are we?’
‘Ah, well, the text isn’t clear, though I believe this happened
some time in either the eleventh or twelfth century.’
‘So long ago.’

‘A long time by anyone’s reckoning,’ agreed Semyon. ‘Save perhaps his.’
‘I don’t understand,’ said Dalia. ‘Who are you talking about?’
‘Never mind. You’ll understand soon enough.’

Dalia fought down her annoyance at Semyon’s cryptic answers and said, ‘So we’re not really here and this is just what’s in the book?’
‘Now you begin to understand.’

‘So who are those women?’ asked Dalia, pointing towards the procession as it made its way down a road of hard-packed earth towards a long scar in the ground from which drifted a mephitic fog.

‘They are the handmaidens of the King of Cyrene’s daughter, Cleodolinda, and they are taking her to her death. Within that wound in the earth dwells the Dragon, a fearsome creature recently awoken after a great war with its kin, which seeks refuge on this world to feed and regain its strength.’
‘The Dragon.’

‘Yes, the Dragon,’ agreed Semyon. ‘It has slain all the knights of the city and demands the sacrifice of a beautiful maiden every day. It feasts on their terror, growing stronger with each feeding, but all the young girls of Cyrene are dead. The king’s daughter alone remains, and now she goes to her death.’
‘Can’t we do anything?’

Semyon sighed. ‘Can you not grasp that this has already happened, girl? This is ancient history we are watching, the birth of a legend that will echo down through the ages in one form or another for all time. Look!’

Dalia followed Semyon’s pointing digit and saw a lone warrior knight in golden armour and a scarlet-plumed helmet riding towards the procession of women on a mighty charger of midnight black. He carried a tall lance of purest silver, from which flew a long red and white banner depicting a soaring eagle grasping a bolt of lightning.
‘Who is that?’ asked Dalia, though she already knew.

‘At this point in time, he is known as a soldier of the Emperor Diocletian, one who has risen to high honour in the army and who is passing through Libya to join his men.’

Dalia almost wept at the sight of the knight, a being of a fairer presence than any she had seen and one whose wondrous power was undimmed by the passage of years.

The knight spurred his horse and swiftly overtook the procession, riding towards the dark scar in the earth. No sooner had he halted his mount and set his shield upon his arm than the Dragon surged from its lair, roaring with a sound louder than thunder.

Dalia’s hands flew to her mouth and she cried out as she saw the Dragon’s monstrous form. In shape it was half crawling beast, half loathsome bird, its scaled head immense and its tail twenty metres long. Its terrible winged body was covered with scales, so strong and bright and smooth that they were like a knight’s armour.
The light of devoured stars shone at its breast and malignant
fire burned in its eyes.

The warrior knight leapt to meet the Dragon, striking the monster with his lance, but its scales were so hard that the weapon broke into a thousand pieces. From the back of his rearing horse, the warrior smote the dragon with his sword, but the beast struck at him with talons like scythe blades. The warrior’s armour split open and Dalia saw blood pouring down his leg in a bright stream.

The Dragon towered over its foe, dealing him fearful blows, but the knight caught them upon his shield and thrust his sword against the Dragon’s belly. The scales of the beast were like steel plates, rippling like liquid mercury as they withstood the knight’s every attack. Then the Dragon, infuriated by the thrust, lashed itself against the knight and his horse, and cast lightning upon him from its eyes. The knight’s helmet was torn from him and Dalia saw his face shine out from the battle, pale, lit by some radiance that shone from within. As he thrust at the Dragon, that radiance grew in power, so that at last it was like the light of a
newborn sun.

The Dragon looped itself around the knight, clawing and biting at his armour and roaring in triumph. Then, as though the thought had come from the warrior, Dalia saw that, no matter how the Dragon writhed, it sought always to protect one place in its body, a place beneath its left wing.
‘Strike, warrior, strike!’ she urged.

As if hearing her words, the knight bent downward and lunged forward, thrusting his sword with a mighty bellow into the Dragon’s body.

The creature gave out a deafening roar that shook stones from the city walls and the burning radiance in its breast was extinguished. Its grasp upon the knight loosened and the lightning faded from its eyes as the great beast fell to the ground.

Perceiving that the Dragon was helpless, though not dead, the knight untied the long white banner from his shattered lance and bound it around the neck of the monster.

With the Dragon subdued, the knight turned to the astounded handmaidens and the people of the city, who streamed from its gates in a riot of adulation. The knight raised a hand to quiet them, and such was his presence and radiance that all who be- held him fell silent.

‘The Dragon is defeated!’ cried the warrior. ‘But it is beyond even my power to destroy, so I shall drag it in fetters from this place and bind it deep in the darkness, where it will remain until the end of all things.’
So saying, the knight rode off with the Dragon bound behind
him, leaving the scene behind him as immobile as a painting.
The image of the city and the desert were frozen in time, and Dalia turned to Semyon. ‘Is that all of it?’

‘It’s all the Dragon remembers of it, yes,’ said Semyon. ‘Or at least a version of its memories. It’s hard to tell what’s real and what’s not sometimes. I listen to its impotent roars of hatred as it watches from its gaol on Mars and write what comes out, the Emperor ‘slaying’ the Dragon of Mars... the grand lie of the red planet and the truth that would shake the galaxy if it were known. But truth, as are all things, is a moving target. What of this is real and what is fantasy... well, who can tell?’
Dalia looked towards the horizon over which the knight had
vanished. ‘Then that was?’

‘The Emperor? Yes,’ said Semyon, turning and walking away as the reality of the desert landscape began to unweave. ‘He brought the defeated Dragon to Mars and bound it beneath the Noctis Labyrinthus.’
‘But why?’

‘The Emperor sees things we do not,’ said Semyon. ‘He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity’s understanding of science to its mastery... all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.’
‘You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Me-
chanicum?’

‘Of course,’ said Semyon. ‘He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon’s dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor’s grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.’

Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor’s designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness.

The scale of the deception was beyond measure and the callousness of it took her breath away. To lie to so many people, to twist the destiny of a planet to suit one man’s aims, even a being as lofty as the Emperor, was a crime of such monstrous proportions that Dalia’s mind shied away from that awful calumny.
‘If the truth of this became known,’ breathed Dalia. ‘It would
tear the Mechanicum apart.’

Semyon shook his head as the last vestiges of the sands of Libya faded away to be replaced with darkness all around them. ‘Not just the Mechanicum, but the Imperium too,’ he said. ‘I know this knowledge is a terrible burden to bear, but the Treaty of Olympus bound the fates of both Throne and Forge together in a union that must never be undone. Neither can survive without the oth- er, but should this become known, then those who hold truth sacred above all else will not see that, they will only see the righteousness of their cause. In any case, the Mechanicum is already tearing itself apart, but the horrors unleashed by the Warmaster’s betrayal will be as nothing if Mars and Terra make war upon one another.’

Semyon fixed Dalia with a gaze of such pity that she shuddered. ‘But it is the duty of the Guardians of the Dragon, souls chosen by the Emperor, to ensure that such a thing does not happen.’

‘You keep the Dragon bound?’ asked Dalia as she began to perceive faint outlines of her surroundings reestablishing themselves.

‘No, the Dragon is bound by chains far stronger than one such as I could devise. The Guardians simply maintain what the Emperor wrought,’ explained Semyon. ‘He knew that one day the Dragon’s lost children would seek its resting place and we are here to ensure that they do not find it.’

The Dragon recalls seeking refuge on Earth to replenish its strength after reawakening.

Semyon and Dalia are actually reliving a memory of his.

Iuris
02-08-2010, 11:20
Ratcatcher, that story is a direct reference to St. George. Opinions differ, but warseer debates generally take it as either an apocryphal account, a didactic vision and not an actual vision of a real event or as you do, as truth.

The story is especially problematic due to the following:
-binding the dragon seems to be complete, yet in 40k, the tomb is fed humans. Why, if he's already bound?
-the dragon is portrayed with minimum power and all alone - this being the dragon that is known for his legions and tech mastery, yet not a necron in sight, not a tomb complex, nothing
-the dragon is entombed on Mars, in a vast tomb complex - did humans build it? With all the alien geometries and so on? Why? to house an already bound dragon? Or if he's not bound, what role did the Emperor play?

Instead, the story can be symbolic, of how the Emperor harnesses the power of science, and puts himself forward as the warden of humanity from science going rampant, which is then linked to the extremely advanced technologies of the Dragon, who is found on Mars, dormant, but with agents active on Mars and Earth, with the Emperor being there to stop his INFLUENCE on humanity.

to quote from the very text above:

‘Still thinking in such literal terms, girl,’

‘And when are we?’
‘Ah, well, the text isn’t clear, though I believe this happened
some time in either the eleventh or twelfth century.’

The very text alone specifies this is neither an observation nor a memory. This is an explanation given from a psyker about his vision to a non-psyker.

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 11:36
Ratcatcher, that story is a direct reference to St. George. Opinions differ, but warseer debates generally take it as either an apocryphal account, a didactic vision and not an actual vision of a real event or as you do, as truth.

Quite so, and furthermore it is what the character Semyon believes and says is the Dragon's memories, or at least purportedly a memory, and is a vision induced in another. It is not an actual direct Dragon POV. The character Semyon also questions the reality and finds it difficult to distinguish between truth and fantasy. Therefore he is not a reliable nor an objective source. What was portrayed could be any mixture of truth and untruth along a spectrum, and at one furthest extreme could be outright falsehood. That account and that vision therefore cannot be taken as true objective statement of what did or did not happen. It is at best the subjective account of Semyon based on the visions.

Lord Damocles
02-08-2010, 14:01
Mechanicum, beginning on page 358.

-Slab o' text-

The Dragon recalls seeking refuge on Earth to replenish its strength after reawakening.

Semyon and Dalia are actually reliving a memory of his.
Despite your mammoth quote, you do seem to have missed the the most important part(s):

'It's all the Dragon remembers of it, yes' said Semyon. 'Or at least a version of it's memories. It's hard to tell what's real and what's not sometimes. / What is real and what is fantasy... well, who can tell?'
Mechanicum, pg.362.
Earlier in the book (pg.211-215), Dahlia also explains to Caxton & Co. that the tales of dragon slaying, which follow the same format as Semyon's vision, are 'allegorical representations' (ie. not literal).

Mechanicum cannot, therefore, be considered a reliable source when dealing with the Emperor's victory over the Dragon of Mars.


EDIT: If I'd read Iracundus' post above mine, then I'd have seen that I said pretty much the same thing again...
Oh well.

Codsticker
02-08-2010, 15:42
We have had a number of reported posts from this thread; if we could all take a step back and keep this from getting personal I would appreciate it.

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 16:20
Despite your mammoth quote, you do seem to have missed the the most important part(s):

'It's all the Dragon remembers of it, yes' said Semyon. 'Or at least a version of it's memories. It's hard to tell what's real and what's not sometimes. / What is real and what is fantasy... well, who can tell?'
Mechanicum, pg.362.
Earlier in the book (pg.211-215), Dahlia also explains to Caxton & Co. that the tales of dragon slaying, which follow the same format as Semyon's vision, are 'allegorical representations' (ie. not literal).

Mechanicum cannot, therefore, be considered a reliable source when dealing with the Emperor's victory over the Dragon of Mars.


EDIT: If I'd read Iracundus' post above mine, then I'd have seen that I said pretty much the same thing again...
Oh well.

Point to both Iracundus and Lord Damocles.

Green-is-best
02-08-2010, 16:21
I'm honestly curious just where all of your nerd rage stems from.

Well, his handle is Latin for irritable. Roflwaffle, as the kids say.

Idaan
02-08-2010, 16:22
Iracundus and Lord Damocles already underlined how this story can't be anything more than an allegory, albeit one describing some real event. You can't take it literally, or you'd have to take, say, the story of Ollanius Pius or the story of serpent stealing Imperial Eagle's eggs that Phantine pilots (iirc) believe.

Kage2020
02-08-2010, 17:51
Just out of interest, one of the most fascinating things about the current materials, and which can be seen in this thread, is that in many ways it can be argued that the 40k 'fluff' is creating the Imperial Cult. On the one side you have the Marines like Hellebore and Iracundus who see a powerful, fallible human. On the other hand you've got the zealots of the Adeptus Ministorum who buy into the ever-increasing power that is attributed to the Emperor.

As a child of the older editions, it's kind of depressing. Yet at the same time it's fascinating to see religion in action--the belief of apotheosis being used to confirm the divine, or something like that. :D Or, put another way, power creep. ;)

Kage

Death Company
02-08-2010, 18:45
I felt that the story represented a victory by the Emperor over the Dragon; how and where that played out, is debatable.

It seemed to me that the Dragon loathes the Emperor for something he did to him; if that was binding him, defeating him, using him as a mere - tool. Who knows.