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BramGaunt
25-07-2010, 12:12
Though there is a bigger difference between Eldar and Dark Eldar than between Space Wolves and Blood Angels (only an example), I can really see Harlequins fitting in well, as they ar neither Dark Eldar nor Craftworld Eldar, but another of the multiple Eldar factions. Their appearance could be compared a little to a unit of Grey Knights, who can be seen in both the Imperial Guard aswell as in Astartes forces.

Paul Nexus
25-07-2010, 13:52
I can't actually see a good reason for Harlequins to be in the codex. They travel to the Dark City, yes, but why on earth would they be tagging along for slave raids? They are performers, guardians of the Black Library/Webway and come to the aid of craft/exodite worlds.

The only situations I can imagine are if lesser races/chaos got into the webway near DE territory, or if a raid is against a mutual threat to the webway. Very situational. But this is maybe something for a different thread.

Scryer in the Darkness
25-07-2010, 14:07
The ways of the Eldar are inscrutable... the ways of the Harlequins are doubly inscrutable.

Or inscrutidubitably. :D

RampagingRavener
25-07-2010, 14:20
and come to the aid of craft/exodite worlds.

To my knowledge, Harlequins treat all Eldar equally. What's to stop them coming to the aid of Commoragh, Shadoom, or any of the other Dark Eldar cities? Should they detect a threat to the Dark Eldar, why would they not come bearing warnings and lead a force to head it off before the danger becomes too great? I doubt that the Dark Eldar would need a lot of encouragement - slaves are slaves, regardless of whether they were harvested from some random world or dragged off in the aftermath of a Harlequin-lead strike.

twistinthunder
26-07-2010, 14:36
would it not be possible that a solitare who has already fallen to slaanesh could have cursed harlies so that they also fall to slaanesh and follow the solitaire (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Harlequin)

Clockwork-Knight
26-07-2010, 16:26
If a solitaire falls to slaanesh, they're dead, and their soul flys straight into the warp storm of excess and deprativity.

A solitaire is a harlequin who's role is to play this dangerous part. They are not and cannot be Slaanesh-worshippers. When they die, either Cegorach or Slaanesh will claim the soul.
Eldar who worship slaanesh and still live are the chaos eldar, and they don't do friendly business with the harlequins, who's job is to fight chaos in all it's forms in the first place.

I. Nailo
26-07-2010, 16:30
If a solitaire falls to slaanesh, they're dead, and their soul flys straight into the warp storm of excess and deprativity.

A solitaire is a harlequin who's role is to play this dangerous part. They are not and cannot be Slaanesh-worshippers. When they die, either Cegorach or Slaanesh will claim the soul.
Eldar who worship slaanesh and still live are the chaos eldar, and they don't do friendly business with the harlequins, who's job is to fight chaos in all it's forms in the first place.

If someone didn't say it, I was going to.

Dark Eldar are not Chaos Eldar, and hate Slaanesh just as much (if not more) than the Craftworld Eldar. Yes, DE are depraved and love torture, excess, and whatnot, but you have to remember that Slaanesh was made in their image, not vice-versa...

... DE who die are consumed by Slaanesh, just like any other non-Harlequin Eldar. Plus, it was the birth of Slaanesh that effectively tossed the "true kin" off of their home worlds and into exile within the webway.

Solitaires play the role of Slaanesh, but are nonetheless devotees of Cegorach, the Laughing God.

evilsponge
26-07-2010, 17:01
Well I'm glad we cleared that up

Starchild
26-07-2010, 18:57
Of course, I would *like* Harlequins to make the cut, since they fit the fluff to some degree, and also because they would likely see an update of their own.Add to that the fact that there simply isn't that much DE fluff, so we really don't know any details about the relationship between the DE and the Harlequins beyond what P. Kelly wrote in Codex Eldar.

When we know more, i.e. when DE actually have a legitimate background (not a few scattered stories from WD with a paper-thin codex), Harlequins fighting alongside DE will probably make a lot more sense.

massey
26-07-2010, 19:14
If someone didn't say it, I was going to.

Dark Eldar are not Chaos Eldar, and hate Slaanesh just as much (if not more) than the Craftworld Eldar. Yes, DE are depraved and love torture, excess, and whatnot, but you have to remember that Slaanesh was made in their image, not vice-versa...

... DE who die are consumed by Slaanesh, just like any other non-Harlequin Eldar. Plus, it was the birth of Slaanesh that effectively tossed the "true kin" off of their home worlds and into exile within the webway.

Solitaires play the role of Slaanesh, but are nonetheless devotees of Cegorach, the Laughing God.

Dark Eldar are as much Chaos Eldar as anything else. It is perhaps better to say that their behavior is indistinguishable from how a Chaos Eldar would behave. You may say they are terrified of Slaanesh/hate Slaanesh, but that's the traditional role of those who worship an evil god. Those cultists trying to bring Cthulhu to Earth know that he's not their buddy. They know it will bring about the end of the world. That's their goal.

Dark Eldar? They want everything Slaanesh offers. The most you can say is that they're afraid to take that final step into full-on mutation and demonhood. That's why they use souls of others in sort of a Picture of Dorian Gray kind of way. "Here, eat this guy's soul, leave me alone." Imagine if you could drink as much as you want, and then make somebody else have the hangover. Do a bunch of coke and have wrinkles appear on someone else's face. They need more souls as they age because their behavior brings them ever closer to Slaanesh. It's the exact same culture that birthed Slaanesh in the first place.

Quinch
26-07-2010, 19:26
Its also worth remembering that once upon a time (admittedly long long ago), Harliquins where an army in there own right, with various unit options. Who's to say the unit(s) in the DE codex will be the same as the Craftworld Eldar? -Harlequin jetbikes, anyone?

(pure speculation...)

Clockwork-Knight
26-07-2010, 19:35
They are however not the famous Chaos Eldar, who's power is second to none amongst all chaos cultists. A dark eldar is a puny weakling compared to the still-living eldar who live on the croneworlds and fight in the names of the gods of madness and ruin. Dark Eldar society was built by juvenile survivors who are so dumb that they awake C'tan who hate them.
Chaos Eldar are beings of ultimate anger, making angry Angron look like he would win the peace nobel all the time, are so scheming and self-defeating, that Farseers would look like they haven't a clue compared to the chaos eldar, are so bloated and disease-ridden that an Unclean One would bow before their example, and so hedonistic and full of desires, that all other eldar cry themselves to sleep before this ultimate boogy-man.

A chaos eldar doesn't fear death. For death is a new sensation and joy that can be experienced. A joy that they wish to bring to all others. They gladly sit on a torture chair and let themselves be electrocuted, for this pain is exquisite. Like the orks, they have achieved the ultimate goal of life. They have experienced all knowledge there is, and seek more, to indulge themselves in unfathomable designs and knowledge that makes them bleed from their eyes, and cry for more.

A dark eldar fears death so much, they suddenly turn silent when mentioning the name of the great enemy, and lash out on weaker beings for feeling powerless in the end. They despair, and live in constant denial that the way they live is their own fault.
At least, that's how Games Workshop has presented the Dark Eldars so far.

Then again, we do have black library novels where the dark eldar antagonists always worship Slaanesh, so yeah, the dark eldar becoming Chaos Eldar Lite would not be surprising.

RampagingRavener
26-07-2010, 20:03
A dark eldar fears death so much, they suddenly turn silent when mentioning the name of the great enemy, and lash out on weaker beings for feeling powerless in the end. They despair, and live in constant denial that the way they live is their own fault.
At least, that's how Games Workshop has presented the Dark Eldars so far.

This, this, a thousand times this. This is what I want to see played up in the new Codex. Despite their bloodthirst, their arrogance, their cruelty and sadism, at the end of the day the Dark Eldar are the embittered remains of an empire that's long since collapsed in upon itself and they can't get over that. They refuse to accept the idea that it is them who are fault, that maybe the Craftworlders could have a point. They'd rather live a parasitic existance than give up their pride and admit that they're wrong. They spitefully lash out at a galaxy run rampant with lesser beings, because although they might never reclaim their empire, they want to see the animals that over-ran it suffer and die, and maybe to know the same sort of fear they do when confronted with their own mortality. They're the burned-out drug addict who insists he can 'quit whenever he likes' and that 'there's totally nothing wrong with me', even as he squats in a hovel, surviving by mugging others for drug-money.


Then again, we do have black library novels where the dark eldar antagonists always worship Slaanesh, so yeah, the dark eldar becoming Chaos Eldar Lite would not be surprising.

Weren't those all written by CS Goto? Does anyone actually take a single thing he wrote seriously?

gorgon
26-07-2010, 20:34
We've had this discussion before. I think the issue with the background as it currently exists is that it focuses on their sadistic nature and piracy and doesn't delve deeply enough into their soulstealing and motivation for soulstealing.

Focus the fluff more clearly on DE being *soul vampires* looking to cheat Slaanesh, and not only do their other aspects pretty much fall into place, the distinction between them and proper Chaos Eldar is a little clearer, IMO. Slaaneshi Eldar operate in service of Slaanesh, where the DE are almost completely self-centered and self-interested individuals craving more life.

FWIW, I think Chaos Eldar is an interesting separate concept, but one I'm sure GW will never execute on.

massey
26-07-2010, 21:08
The Dark Eldar are to Chaos-worshipping Eldar as the Night Lords are to the Word Bearers. They may not say their prayers before they go to bed, but they are driven by the forces of the 8 pointed star just the same.

Personally, I'd like to see the Dark Eldar move away from this. You could play up Commorragh as Sin City, where you can find all manner of corruption and perversion. Your average Dark Eldar warrior could be everything from an Alaitoc Ranger who decided to slum it for a few years, to a ruthless murderer exiled from his Craftworld. They all eventually find their way to Commorragh. It's a combination of Las Vegas, New Orleans, Tijuana, Skid Row, Tortuga in Pirates of the Carribean, and Pleasure Island from Pinocchio. It's got Hollywood lights and glamour, but if you're not careful you'll wind up in a bathtub full of ice, missing your kidneys. It's exciting and dangerous, and the little tattoo parlor down the street might just be a front for a sadistic torturer to find new people to pull his "Human Centipede" experiments on.

That would solve the problem that it has now, where every single person stabs everyone else in the back the first chance they get. Why would anyone ever want to go to the current Commorragh? How would they have a population with that kind of behavior? They wouldn't. So make it more glitz and spectacle, but with back alleys that are very, very dark. Asdrubael Vect would be a lot like Andy Garcia in Oceans 11. He's cool, suave, sophisticated. And underneath it all, there's this aura of menace. He's ruthless to the core, but he's always got a smile and a pat on the back for the big spenders.

Make it all politics and intrigue, with occasional outbreaks of assassination and violence. Suddenly a bunch of people are dead, and then everyone just goes back to playing the casino games or watching the strippers. You could find everyone from "honorable" pirates, like the Dread Pirate Yriel, to Cenobite-type creatures prowling through the shadows. Commorragh, it's a hell of a town.

Tymell
26-07-2010, 22:12
Massey: Dark Eldar may behave in a manner that can make them look like Chaos-worshippers, but they're distinct from that. The behaviour of two opposing sides in a war can be largely indistinguishable while still being on those opposite sides.

Dark Eldar do walk a knife edge, but that's what I like about them, and it's thus very important that that edge is maintained rather than just chucking them onto one side of it. They may placate the Chaos god (depending on how you look at the background) but that's distinct from actual worship.

That said, the emphasis on the piratical side definitely appeals to me too, and I certainly wouldn't mind seeing their home base become that kind of twisted city of sin. A lot of that imagery in your last post sounds positively delicious :D A 40Kified Sin City, yes please.

Anyway, a little more on track: Much as I'd love to hear/see something at a Games Day, I'd be surprised. I've kind of lost faith in those, we seem to have had about a dozen over the past year or two where everyone's been hoping for tidbits about an upcoming release and come away empty-handed.

Ba'al Starslayer
26-07-2010, 22:31
I always thought that, despite the very little (Yet seemingly complex) information given about DE, this was always known:
-DE are NOT Slaaneshi worshippers. They despise Slaanesh as much as the Craftworlders.
-DE drink souls because theirs are constantly being absorbed by Slaanesh, hence they must take others' souls to keep themselves going. This process also have rejuvenating effects.

Campbell1988
26-07-2010, 23:39
Dark Eldar are as much Chaos Eldar as anything else. It is perhaps better to say that their behavior is indistinguishable from how a Chaos Eldar would behave. You may say they are terrified of Slaanesh/hate Slaanesh, but that's the traditional role of those who worship an evil god. Those cultists trying to bring Cthulhu to Earth know that he's not their buddy. They know it will bring about the end of the world. That's their goal.

Dark Eldar? They want everything Slaanesh offers. The most you can say is that they're afraid to take that final step into full-on mutation and demonhood. That's why they use souls of others in sort of a Picture of Dorian Gray kind of way. "Here, eat this guy's soul, leave me alone." Imagine if you could drink as much as you want, and then make somebody else have the hangover. Do a bunch of coke and have wrinkles appear on someone else's face. They need more souls as they age because their behavior brings them ever closer to Slaanesh. It's the exact same culture that birthed Slaanesh in the first place.
Actually Slaanesh just eats them no matter what they do and so they use other souls to keep themselves alive. Yeah, they like it a bit but hey, after thousands of years anything you have to do to live will eventually become enjoyable simply cause you're used to it (doesn't help that they weren't the nicest of people beforehand though...). They don't like Slaanesh though...at all. If they could have nothing to do with them I expect most would (always exceptions though). Chaos Eldar on the other hand are far...FAR more terrible.

massey
27-07-2010, 03:57
Actually Slaanesh just eats them no matter what they do and so they use other souls to keep themselves alive. Yeah, they like it a bit but hey, after thousands of years anything you have to do to live will eventually become enjoyable simply cause you're used to it (doesn't help that they weren't the nicest of people beforehand though...). They don't like Slaanesh though...at all. If they could have nothing to do with them I expect most would (always exceptions though). Chaos Eldar on the other hand are far...FAR more terrible.

There's no evidence for that, though. Apparently in the latest Gav Thorpe novel, there's... I guess I should put in spoilers here, though I don't think it's too big a deal.

a Dark Eldar who has left Commorragh to train to become a Striking Scorpion.

This would indicate that it's possible to give up the Dark Eldar lifestyle. There's nothing biologically different about them that prevents them from living as the Craftworlders do, or the Exodites. They just choose not to.

Hellebore
27-07-2010, 04:00
Dark Eldar are yuppies who, rather than give up their indolent lifestyle, have been given the opportunity to keep it running on the blood of hobos. What is the blood of one hobo to the glorious life of a yuppy?

Hellebore

Lupe
27-07-2010, 04:31
Personally, I'd like to see the Dark Eldar move away from this. You could play up Commorragh as Sin City, where you can find all manner of corruption and perversion. Your average Dark Eldar warrior could be everything from an Alaitoc Ranger who decided to slum it for a few years, to a ruthless murderer exiled from his Craftworld. They all eventually find their way to Commorragh. It's a combination of Las Vegas, New Orleans, Tijuana, Skid Row, Tortuga in Pirates of the Carribean, and Pleasure Island from Pinocchio. It's got Hollywood lights and glamour, but if you're not careful you'll wind up in a bathtub full of ice, missing your kidneys. It's exciting and dangerous, and the little tattoo parlor down the street might just be a front for a sadistic torturer to find new people to pull his "Human Centipede" experiments on.


I like this idea. It's still an insanely darwinistic society, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense this way.

fenrisnorth
27-07-2010, 04:32
inscrutidubitably. :D

Win, Sir.




Anyways...

The harlequins could be collecting material for a new play, recruiting drom the Dark Kin, scouting for chaos infections, protecting eldar souls from being lost, recovering artefacts, or just plain be jerks.

I. Nailo
27-07-2010, 05:12
I always thought that, despite the very little (Yet seemingly complex) information given about DE, this was always known:
-DE are NOT Slaaneshi worshippers. They despise Slaanesh as much as the Craftworlders.
-DE drink souls because theirs are constantly being absorbed by Slaanesh, hence they must take others' souls to keep themselves going. This process also have rejuvenating effects.

This

Let me put it this way: why do you think the DE eat souls to prolong their lives?
To deny their own souls to Slaanesh.

They don't worship him/her/it, especially given that he/she/it is the reason they live in the webway and not on their comfy little world still living the high life.

Yes, as far as we've seen so far, they are dark and sadistic, but that doesn't make them Chaos worshipers. Saying they worship Slaanesh because they give in to their excess is like saying Blood Angels worship Khorne because they suffer from the red thirst and succumb to the black rage. Sure, Blood Angels "look similar" to Khorne Berzerkers, but they're still two distinctly different things.

Hellebore
27-07-2010, 05:14
It does make them irredemable bastards though. There are two non bastard ways to avoid the depredations of slannesh, but they require the Dark Eldar give up their aforementioned pre-fall yuppy lifestyle. They'd really rather not if it's all the same to you.

Hellebore

Lord-Caerolion
27-07-2010, 06:27
Personally, I'd like to see the Dark Eldar move away from this. You could play up Commorragh as Sin City, where you can find all manner of corruption and perversion. Your average Dark Eldar warrior could be everything from an Alaitoc Ranger who decided to slum it for a few years, to a ruthless murderer exiled from his Craftworld. They all eventually find their way to Commorragh. It's a combination of Las Vegas, New Orleans, Tijuana, Skid Row, Tortuga in Pirates of the Carribean, and Pleasure Island from Pinocchio. It's got Hollywood lights and glamour, but if you're not careful you'll wind up in a bathtub full of ice, missing your kidneys. It's exciting and dangerous, and the little tattoo parlor down the street might just be a front for a sadistic torturer to find new people to pull his "Human Centipede" experiments on.

That would solve the problem that it has now, where every single person stabs everyone else in the back the first chance they get. Why would anyone ever want to go to the current Commorragh? How would they have a population with that kind of behavior? They wouldn't. So make it more glitz and spectacle, but with back alleys that are very, very dark. Asdrubael Vect would be a lot like Andy Garcia in Oceans 11. He's cool, suave, sophisticated. And underneath it all, there's this aura of menace. He's ruthless to the core, but he's always got a smile and a pat on the back for the big spenders.

Make it all politics and intrigue, with occasional outbreaks of assassination and violence. Suddenly a bunch of people are dead, and then everyone just goes back to playing the casino games or watching the strippers. You could find everyone from "honorable" pirates, like the Dread Pirate Yriel, to Cenobite-type creatures prowling through the shadows. Commorragh, it's a hell of a town.

Could... could you please go help write the Dark Eldar background? That is exactly how Commoragh should be portrayed, instead of the current mental image of countless S&M clubs, drug houses, and the streets overflowing with DE that've been backstabbed.

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 06:35
If you pay attention to massey's posts, he tends to make good sense. ;)

Krovin-Rezh
27-07-2010, 07:27
Despite their bloodthirst, their arrogance, their cruelty and sadism, at the end of the day the Dark Eldar are the embittered remains of an empire that's long since collapsed in upon itself and they can't get over that. They refuse to accept the idea that it is them who are fault, that maybe the Craftworlders could have a point. They'd rather live a parasitic existance than give up their pride and admit that they're wrong. They spitefully lash out at a galaxy run rampant with lesser beings, because although they might never reclaim their empire, they want to see the animals that over-ran it suffer and die, and maybe to know the same sort of fear they do when confronted with their own mortality. They're the burned-out drug addict who insists he can 'quit whenever he likes' and that 'there's totally nothing wrong with me', even as he squats in a hovel, surviving by mugging others for drug-money.
I don't really agree. A drug addict is self-destructive, but Deldar thrive on the carnage the have wrought and the souls they consume. It allows them to keep being depraved and sadistic without succumbing to Slaanesh, which is not to say they don't have a healthy fear of Her. When they go on slave raids, it is true that they need to for survival, but they would do it on their own too. They have the means, enjoy the sport, and there's a lot of prizes out there that a greedy Deldar wouldn't mind getting for himself. That's what piracy is all about.

That's what I like about them. Deldar are great villains, but they are complex beings still, not mindless destructive energy like with Daemons, or subservient like CSM.

RunepriestRidcully
27-07-2010, 08:32
The Dark Eldar are to Chaos-worshipping Eldar as the Night Lords are to the Word Bearers. They may not say their prayers before they go to bed, but they are driven by the forces of the 8 pointed star just the same.

Personally, I'd like to see the Dark Eldar move away from this. You could play up Commorragh as Sin City, where you can find all manner of corruption and perversion. Your average Dark Eldar warrior could be everything from an Alaitoc Ranger who decided to slum it for a few years, to a ruthless murderer exiled from his Craftworld. They all eventually find their way to Commorragh. It's a combination of Las Vegas, New Orleans, Tijuana, Skid Row, Tortuga in Pirates of the Carribean, and Pleasure Island from Pinocchio. It's got Hollywood lights and glamour, but if you're not careful you'll wind up in a bathtub full of ice, missing your kidneys. It's exciting and dangerous, and the little tattoo parlor down the street might just be a front for a sadistic torturer to find new people to pull his "Human Centipede" experiments on.

That would solve the problem that it has now, where every single person stabs everyone else in the back the first chance they get. Why would anyone ever want to go to the current Commorragh? How would they have a population with that kind of behavior? They wouldn't. So make it more glitz and spectacle, but with back alleys that are very, very dark. Asdrubael Vect would be a lot like Andy Garcia in Oceans 11. He's cool, suave, sophisticated. And underneath it all, there's this aura of menace. He's ruthless to the core, but he's always got a smile and a pat on the back for the big spenders.

Make it all politics and intrigue, with occasional outbreaks of assassination and violence. Suddenly a bunch of people are dead, and then everyone just goes back to playing the casino games or watching the strippers. You could find everyone from "honorable" pirates, like the Dread Pirate Yriel, to Cenobite-type creatures prowling through the shadows. Commorragh, it's a hell of a town.

I agree, you sould work on the Dark Eldar codex, protect it from the butchering of ward, the way you described Commorragh is great, plus I would not be suprised to find non eldar there, either escaped slaves or people who somehow round up there?

reds8n
27-07-2010, 08:41
The new WD makes mention of the harlequins leading a force of the Eldar's dark kin to the rescue/aid of a force of craftworld eldar embattled by a vast daemonic army trying to breach an old webway gate.

..course it also has 3 or 4 Avatars' being dragged down and killed by a KoS and his daemonic allies. Mainly beasts of Nurgle IIRC.

It's the new black dontchaknow.

Hellebore
27-07-2010, 08:45
The Haemonculus would be the wetwork people the lords hire to make an example of someone.

Like Black Lagoon's Sawyer the Cleaner.

Hellebore

Idaan
27-07-2010, 10:36
The new WD makes mention of the harlequins leading a force of the Eldar's dark kin to the rescue/aid of a force of craftworld eldar embattled by a vast daemonic army trying to breach an old webway gate.

..course it also has 3 or 4 Avatars' being dragged down and killed by a KoS and his daemonic allies. Mainly beasts of Nurgle IIRC.

It's the new black dontchaknow.

Lol.

I have nothing more to say but have to use up 10 char.

gorgon
27-07-2010, 14:10
That would solve the problem that it has now, where every single person stabs everyone else in the back the first chance they get. Why would anyone ever want to go to the current Commorragh? How would they have a population with that kind of behavior?

Because the first thing you find out when civilization breaks down is that there's power in groups. You're less likely to mess with someone if they're part of a gang/band/whatever. Yes, that implies they're looking out for one another...but it's only because keeping the group strong keeps them safe.

Hence DE society has evolved into a balance of power between various Kabals, cults, etc. Occasionally warfare breaks out, but it'd tend to be sporadic and limited just because all-out warfare is too expensive and damaging. And remember, what DE want most (at least as I imagine it) is more life.

If you think about DE society being something not unlike organized crime families, it all kinda makes sense. Every person doesn't stab each other in the back because there may be repercussions. People want to join organized crime because there's power, protection and personal profit there alongside the danger. And they have a population with that kind of behavior because all-out war all the time doesn't advance anyone's goals.

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 16:59
The new WD makes mention of the harlequins leading a force of the Eldar's dark kin to the rescue/aid of a force of craftworld eldar embattled by a vast daemonic army trying to breach an old webway gate.

..course it also has 3 or 4 Avatars' being dragged down and killed by a KoS and his daemonic allies. Mainly beasts of Nurgle IIRC.

It's the new black dontchaknow.

I REALLY hope you're pulling my leg here. It's like they heard every complaint about the frequency of Avatar deaths and said "up yours". :rolleyes:

reds8n
27-07-2010, 17:24
,,I present ;

"The Murderval of Chaos...

.. The war-ravaged Eldar world of Lohiac bears silent testament to a grand alliance of Daemons that assailed the planet in a battle that raged for several years, Four Eldar Craftworlds bled and died to prevent the Daemons gaining access to a sundered portal into the webway,the mysterious realm of the Eldar. Daemons in service to each of the Chaos Gods willingly united under the command of Ssair Gleamling, Greater Daemon of Slaanesh.
Of all the Dark Gods,Slaanesh hungers most for the souls of the Eldar and so the Dark Prince bargained power,proffered gifts and offered honeyed words to his fellow gods to secure their cooperation.Even as the lithe Keeper of Secrets directed the assault on teh shimmering gateways at the heart of the world, three Avatars of the Eldar's own deity opposed him. There was no honour in that duel, however, as the Mouldkin,oozesome Beasts of Nurgle, mired the fiery forms of the Avatars even as Ssair and his allies closed in for the kill.

Whatever dire price Slanesh had bartered to ensure victory brought with it daemonic allies of every shape and savour. Screamers of Tzeentch duelled with flights of Eldar jetbikes even as swift Steeds of Slaanesh and winged Daemon Princes of every hue tore at the flanks of the sorely pressed Eldar host.

Such an alliance,so feared and loathed by the Eldar of the Craftworlds, would doubtless have triumphed were it not for the arrival of the Eldar's dark kin. Led by the lithe and deadly servants of the Laughing God, they struck the daemons without warning. The uncompromising savagery of their attack bought the Seer Councils of the Eldar enough time to permanently seal the portal, leaving the Dark Prince without his prize and sorely indebted to his fellow Chaos Gods."

.. time to face up Eldar fanboys, your ruined, shattered God just aint all that no matter how much you doth protest. :angel:

Son of Sanguinius
27-07-2010, 18:14
Okay, that sounds a tad more plausible. The sorceries of Nurgle, a particularly powerful Greater Demon, and "allies", whatever that means, can threaten damn near anything.

In fact, it creates a very cool image of the three Avatars fighting side by side or back to back against the tide.

massey
27-07-2010, 18:52
I'm reminded of an episode of The Simpsons where they're running around in the Old West, hunting buffalo. Lisa warns everyone that they're going to hunt the species to extinction. In frustration, she picks up a small rock and throws it. Offscreen, you hear the sound of a buffalo crying out and the hitting the ground with a thud. Lisa remarks "Wow, these things die really easily."

Now I'm imagining an 8 year old child throwing a rock and killing an Avatar. :)

Campbell1988
27-07-2010, 18:56
I don't really agree. A drug addict is self-destructive, but Deldar thrive on the carnage the have wrought and the souls they consume. It allows them to keep being depraved and sadistic without succumbing to Slaanesh, which is not to say they don't have a healthy fear of Her. When they go on slave raids, it is true that they need to for survival, but they would do it on their own too. They have the means, enjoy the sport, and there's a lot of prizes out there that a greedy Deldar wouldn't mind getting for himself. That's what piracy is all about.

That's what I like about them. Deldar are great villains, but they are complex beings still, not mindless destructive energy like with Daemons, or subservient like CSM.

The drug addict thing comes from refusing to admit that their lifestyle caused a problem. They won't. They could end their issues with having to eat souls and dodge Slaanesh by admitting their mistake and trying to rejoin the Craftworlds. But they don't. They're too proud and they're too addicted to the life they have to give it up, even for safety.

Kage2020
27-07-2010, 19:26
Unoriginal, I know, but I always got a "Drow" image from the Dark Eldar rather than the automatic murder-death-kill that many seem to work with. This makes it almost exactly like massey describes.

Of course, my other heresies include having them stay in the Webway because, while there, they are broadly "immune" to Slaaneshi soul sucking, so take with a pinch of salt. :D

Kage

I. Nailo
28-07-2010, 06:52
I have to admit that I like the idea of Sin City/Tortuga as the "new" Commoragh. You'd end up with true kin mingling with the worst of the worst from the other Eldar, as well as the alien slaves and whatnot. I could just picture a bar crawling with the seediest of the pointy-eared people, and when a drink get spilled by a slave the Eldar knifes him for insolence. The bar goes quiet, then they all get that unsettling grin because they liked the show, and everything goes back to business as usual. Some unlucky slave comes out of the back and cleans up, and all the drunks have a "funny story" for their mates back at their ship.

I'm actually also reminded of ancient Sparta suddenly (random thought process). In order to become a true warrior, a trainee would have to sneak out of his barracks at night, kill a slave, and sneak back in without anyone catching him in the process. I could totally see Mandrakes and young kabalites doing that, to see if they were ready for the big raids.

I could just picture slaves avoiding certain alleyways because of stories they heard. They'd whisper to each other as they eyed the dark recesses of the narrow street, retelling stories of others they saw dragged away by unseen hands. I could even see the kabalites nervously eying certain buildings run by the haemonculae, talking about what happened to the last people from their ship that went in. Or, to the contrary, they might tell an upstart that such a storefront is a safe place to get a tattoo, then shrug when asked where he went when he never shows up for any raids again.

This is an image of Commorragh that I could get behind.

When is the book due out again? I need to put in my advanced order soon :D

Sunfang
28-07-2010, 16:59
Dark Eldar are yuppies who, rather than give up their indolent lifestyle, have been given the opportunity to keep it running on the blood of hobos. What is the blood of one hobo to the glorious life of a yuppy?

Hellebore

Hellebore wins another thread...surprised?

Shamana
29-07-2010, 09:47
I have to admit that I like the idea of Sin City/Tortuga as the "new" Commoragh. You'd end up with true kin mingling with the worst of the worst from the other Eldar, as well as the alien slaves and whatnot.

Turn it to eleven - no, seventeen - and it would be quite similar to what I have in mid. I have a vision that differs just slightly, based on what little we know about Eldar psychology. Eldar are supposedly creatures of strong emotions, much stronger than humans, and have a much harder time resisting them. Left without a way to channel their emotions through self-discipline or clear purpose, their empire self-destructed in an orgy chaotic enough to birth Slaanesh. The craftworlders saw the effects of their self-indulgence, and decided they could only avoid repeating that through self-discipline,. That is what their paths are, after all - a way to channel all that passion into a more or less constructive outlet, and deny the rest, throwing yourself fully in something with almost religious (if not wholly religious) zeal. However, all that self-denial builds up pressure, and behind the stonefaced facade a craftworlder craves freedom and indulgence. Most find ways to endure it, some take up wandering and thus take on a slightly looser leash, but for some, eventually, that is not enough.

The ways of the Dark Kin, however abhorrent they may appear, have one very alluring feature - they offer release from all that tension. They do not deny their emotions, they indulge in them. Comorragh may be a murderous hellhole, but on the ID level it is a paradise, or at least as close to one as one can get - there an eldar can be whatever it wants to be, do whatever it wants to do. The only problem, of course, is that so do millions (or was it billions) of other eldar. One's freedom eventually would restrict another... and why does and eldar go to Comorragh, if not to enjoy their freedom fully? Hell no you won't stop your hand - the other guy's nose is his problem. This being Comorragh, no one cares for the losers, eldar or otherwise.

Of course, with time, a hierarchy appears, where the weaker either die or know not to deny the whims of the stronger. The strong are free, the weak are bound - so everyone wants to be strong. Those who crave power are ironically captured in another system - the cults, kabals, etc - but compared to the craftworlders, the Dark Kin are much, much more permissive towards the emotions that the Eldar crave. An aspect warrior denies himself every moment, the kabal warrior - only when s/he would go against a superior. Yeah, that way of life might not make sense in the long run - but in the long run everyone is dead, so most dark eldar focus on the now.

Clockwork-Knight
29-07-2010, 12:09
One important thing should be that the focus on the new dark eldar codex is not restricted to Commoragh. The other dark eldar cities should also show some differentiation and other political structures.

Shamana
29-07-2010, 12:35
What other Dark Eldar cities? Sorry, I only read the 3E codex ;)

Clockwork-Knight
29-07-2010, 12:37
A dark eldar city called Shadom is mentioned in Planetstrike. The 4th edition eldar codex also mentions that there are many more cities of the dark eldar in the webway.

Sai-Lauren
29-07-2010, 14:05
Dark Eldar are as much Chaos Eldar as anything else. It is perhaps better to say that their behavior is indistinguishable from how a Chaos Eldar would behave. You may say they are terrified of Slaanesh/hate Slaanesh, but that's the traditional role of those who worship an evil god. Those cultists trying to bring Cthulhu to Earth know that he's not their buddy. They know it will bring about the end of the world. That's their goal.

Dark Eldar? They want everything Slaanesh offers. The most you can say is that they're afraid to take that final step into full-on mutation and demonhood. That's why they use souls of others in sort of a Picture of Dorian Gray kind of way. "Here, eat this guy's soul, leave me alone." Imagine if you could drink as much as you want, and then make somebody else have the hangover. Do a bunch of coke and have wrinkles appear on someone else's face. They need more souls as they age because their behavior brings them ever closer to Slaanesh. It's the exact same culture that birthed Slaanesh in the first place.

Nope, sorry.

Dark Eldar also live in constant fear of She Who Thirsts, there was some fluff that their soul consumption was a necessity due to Comorragh being in the webway and thus close to chaos, and an expident to counter their lack of spirit stones and the Infinity Circuit - a way of either replacing what Slaanesh pulls from their own souls, or hiding their own.

Croneworld Eldar are what you're thinking of.

A Slaaneshi worshipper would slash someone's throat simply for the experience of it - the way light catches the droplets of arterial spray, the gurgles of the person dying, the iron aroma in the air - whilst a Dark Eldar would do it out of anger, spite, to preserve their place in the heirarchy, or hopefully even move up a bit.

I absolutely agree on the "Sin City" bit though - although don't forget the gladiatorial arenas. ;)

I can imagine an Archon promising a slave his freedom if he makes 1000 kills in the arena, then if he somehow manages it, slitting his throat and absorbing the essence of the echoes of all those kills himself.



This, this, a thousand times this. This is what I want to see played up in the new Codex. Despite their bloodthirst, their arrogance, their cruelty and sadism, at the end of the day the Dark Eldar are the embittered remains of an empire that's long since collapsed in upon itself and they can't get over that. They refuse to accept the idea that it is them who are fault, that maybe the Craftworlders could have a point. They'd rather live a parasitic existance than give up their pride and admit that they're wrong. They spitefully lash out at a galaxy run rampant with lesser beings, because although they might never reclaim their empire, they want to see the animals that over-ran it suffer and die, and maybe to know the same sort of fear they do when confronted with their own mortality. They're the burned-out drug addict who insists he can 'quit whenever he likes' and that 'there's totally nothing wrong with me', even as he squats in a hovel, surviving by mugging others for drug-money.

Agreed. IMO, they're basically surviving in the cracks - too big for anyone to just squash out of hand, but too small to make it worthwhile diverting the assets required to get rid of them whilst there's bigger threats around.

massey
29-07-2010, 14:29
Nope, sorry.

Dark Eldar also live in constant fear of She Who Thirsts, there was some fluff that their soul consumption was a necessity due to Comorragh being in the webway and thus close to chaos, and an expident to counter their lack of spirit stones and the Infinity Circuit - a way of either replacing what Slaanesh pulls from their own souls, or hiding their own.

Croneworld Eldar are what you're thinking of.

No, there was some fan speculation that absorbing souls was a necessity. I've read what little background info there was for Dark Eldar, and they've never said why they needed the souls, only that it was a draining thirst.

But the current Dark Eldar fluff puts them as close to Chaos as possible without actually slapping an 8-pointed star on everything. Which is why I don't like the current Dark Eldar background.


A Slaaneshi worshipper would slash someone's throat simply for the experience of it - the way light catches the droplets of arterial spray, the gurgles of the person dying, the iron aroma in the air - whilst a Dark Eldar would do it out of anger, spite, to preserve their place in the heirarchy, or hopefully even move up a bit.

Look in the back of the Dark Eldar codex. Read the story about a guy who was held prisoner in Commorragh. He talks about Hellions who swoop down out of the sky and behead people, then zoom off again. They're doing it for fun.


I absolutely agree on the "Sin City" bit though - although don't forget the gladiatorial arenas. ;)

I can imagine an Archon promising a slave his freedom if he makes 1000 kills in the arena, then if he somehow manages it, slitting his throat and absorbing the essence of the echoes of all those kills himself.

Oh, absolutely. :)

Also, I just ran into Milla Jovovich outside my office. :) She's filming a movie right now. This has nothing to do with the conversation. It's just awesome and I wanted to taunt everyone.

I. Nailo
29-07-2010, 19:56
No, there was some fan speculation that absorbing souls was a necessity. I've read what little background info there was for Dark Eldar, and they've never said why they needed the souls, only that it was a draining thirst.

I don't have the magazine on hand any more, but I believe Asdrubael Vect explains their need for souls in that one short story that was put into that WD that came out after the codex. He even derides the ability of humanity to call something as complicated as the very center of ones being by such a simple, single syllable.

And cheers to Shamana! That was a fantastic image you inserted into my head :D

Plus, I'm definitely looking forward to other Webway cities. It would help expand the realm of the true kin, and that way they might be taking territory within the webway for easier raids on real space.

massey
29-07-2010, 20:45
I don't have the magazine on hand any more, but I believe Asdrubael Vect explains their need for souls in that one short story that was put into that WD that came out after the codex. He even derides the ability of humanity to call something as complicated as the very center of ones being by such a simple, single syllable.

And cheers to Shamana! That was a fantastic image you inserted into my head :D

Plus, I'm definitely looking forward to other Webway cities. It would help expand the realm of the true kin, and that way they might be taking territory within the webway for easier raids on real space.

It's The Torturer's Tale, and it doesn't get that specific as far as why they need to take souls.

Son of Sanguinius
29-07-2010, 20:52
Also, I just ran into Milla Jovovich outside my office. :) She's filming a movie right now. This has nothing to do with the conversation. It's just awesome and I wanted to taunt everyone.

You lucky little...

I consider myself thoroughly and enjoyably taunted. :D

Askil the Undecided
30-07-2010, 00:49
Dark Eldar are yuppies who, rather than give up their indolent lifestyle, have been given the opportunity to keep it running on the blood of hobos. What is the blood of one hobo to the glorious life of a yuppy?

A refereshing pre-lunch beverage?

Also to re-iterate a point that has been made a few times now:

The DE were started by the few survivors of the decadent Eldar civilisation that bought Slaanesh his/her first hentai porn, a half and half slinky dress/tux, a "showbiz" donkey, seventy tequila shots, twelve transgender postitutes of assorted sizes, races, colours and sexual orientaions and a hefty handful of multicolored non-medicinal drugs thus making him/her the fun loving partygoer he/she is today.

As such Slaanesh acts like the DE, not the other way around.

ooglatjama
31-07-2010, 01:08
I wonder when the codex comes out how many craftworlds/avatars/dwarf holds the DE will kill.

shaso_iceborn
31-07-2010, 01:51
What if you all found out that the "Dark Kin" is just another path of the Eldar warrior? One all must pass to truly say they are free from Slaanesh.

Very doubtful mind you but it would be cool none-the-less to see this being "but a path" in the circle of life for the Eldar. They would have to go thorough and then give up such indulgences, those unwilling or unable to give up said lifestyle remain in the dark city.

Hellebore
31-07-2010, 03:26
Well I wouldn't be surprised if the craftworlders saw it that way, or at least some of them.

Hellebore

Rat Catcher
31-07-2010, 09:38
The lore has reached the point where I ask myself; what can't kill an Avatar?

I'm starting to think even my lasgun could handle a couple of 'em.

RunepriestRidcully
31-07-2010, 12:41
What's a "Showbiz" Donkey? And the idea of Slannesh acting like the Dark Eldar because he/she/it was birthed by that behaviour makes sense.

Askil the Undecided
31-07-2010, 15:45
What's a "Showbiz" Donkey? And the idea of Slannesh acting like the Dark Eldar because he/she/it was birthed by that behaviour makes sense.

The term "showbiz Donkey" is used in Howard Stern's comedic almost-autobiographical film "Private Parts" by an unammed cameraman to reassure a bikini clad actress that she need not worry when a donkey is brought into shot.

abasio
02-08-2010, 05:45
The lore has reached the point where I ask myself; what can't kill an Avatar?

I'm starting to think even my lasgun could handle a couple of 'em.

Avatars don't die easily though do they? Sure they're deaths are shown often in the fluff but it's always by a very strong opponent or weight of numbers. Calgar killed the avatar after a long battle involving a lot more marines, Avatars have been brought down by hordes of tyranids, those 3 stated above were killed by greater demons, including one that is leading a combined chaos horde of all 4 gods.

Avatars are very disposable characters as they have no personality and can't really be killed, so once taken down their essence goes back to the craftworld ready to fight another day. So it is tactically sound to sacrifice itself to help win the battle. And for the fluff it can show how badass the new badass character is.

I would think the Avatar of Khaine would die almost every battle as when it does die its essence just goes back to the craftworld it would keep fighting until it was taken down or there was nothing left to fight.

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 07:15
Avatars don't die easily though do they? Sure they're deaths are shown often in the fluff but it's always by a very strong opponent or weight of numbers. Calgar killed the avatar after a long battle involving a lot more marines, Avatars have been brought down by hordes of tyranids, those 3 stated above were killed by greater demons, including one that is leading a combined chaos horde of all 4 gods.

Avatars are very disposable characters as they have no personality and can't really be killed, so once taken down their essence goes back to the craftworld ready to fight another day. So it is tactically sound to sacrifice itself to help win the battle. And for the fluff it can show how badass the new badass character is.

I would think the Avatar of Khaine would die almost every battle as when it does die its essence just goes back to the craftworld it would keep fighting until it was taken down or there was nothing left to fight.

It is not tactically or fictionally sound to have it sacrifice itself in most battles. It's the Eldar's avatar of their own desire to fight, not a punching bag.

There are literally myriads of incredible opponents for every codex' bad ass character to show off against, and it is quite plausible and acceptable for the opponent to be the avatar now and again. But have you seen the compiled list of all the Avatar deaths? It truly is ridiculous, to the point of coincidence being impossible.

EDIT: And yes, they die incredibly easy. Calgar and Fulgrim punched theirs, one stood there and took a battle cannon bombardment, and in DOW a single Blood Raven squad and force commander pulled it off.

Karl MkVI
02-08-2010, 11:57
This Avatar debate is so boring. Not to antagonize those who do enjoy debating it, but seriously.

Why do people seem so content with Heroic Character X taking down a Greater Daemon, but not an Avatar? Similar concept, and yet no one complains about the Greater Daemons...

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 12:01
This Avatar debate is so boring. Not to antagonize those who do enjoy debating it, but seriously.

Why do people seem so content with Heroic Character X taking down a Greater Daemon, but not an Avatar? Similar concept, and yet no one complains about the Greater Daemons...

The Avatar is taken down with a monotonous regularity in almost virtually every appearance it has made in 5th edition, and even past battles where it originally played a victorious role (the Defense of Iyanden) end up being retconned to have the Avatar being taken down. Greater Daemons don't get taken down with such regularity.

Check:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250681

It adds up to something like 8 Avatars being taken down within 213 years, some from major Craftworlds (repeatedly). If one delves further into the past, the other sightings in that thread add up to well over 8.

Iuris
02-08-2010, 12:29
Well, the Eldar can always smugly remark: just you wait till we get angry again, and he'll be back at the modest pricetag of one aspect warrior (or exarch on less-smart craftworlds).

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 12:36
It is also partly the way in which especially the Avatars in more recent references have fallen, such as the retconned Iyanden tale. The Avatars now seem to be portrayed as showing a shocking lack of sense or tactics in going out screaming for an "honorable" duel and then falling when mobbed or otherwise outwitted.

Col. Tartleton
02-08-2010, 16:02
Still, overall Eldar fans completely blow the avatar thing out of the water. There are hundreds or thousands of them and they cannot be killed only destroyed. They're Greater Daemons of Khaine bound to an Eldar host. Seeing as they cannot die and the only cost in using them is the sacrifice of an Eldar soul to Khaine, they're not exactly the end of the world. The Eldar don't like doing it because Khaine scares them and it means giving up an aspect/exarch (unclear) warrior. However they do it all the time. He's a very powerful warrior but he has his limits because Khaine is not as powerful as the chaos gods, so he's stronger then a Daemon Prince and weaker then a Greater Daemon. Look at it as Avatars are so feared that every time they are killed the Imperium jumps at the chance to pose with their broken body for the propaganda boost. As is its only happened a few times in single combat, very few space marine lords can even stand against them.

I just hope that if (I'm sure they will) put Harlequins the Dark Eldar book they make them the other half of the list so that you could play a full fleshed Harlequin force by mixing Eldar and Dark Eldar codices.

I can't see them putting the same units a different book. I feel like they'll have a solitaire and mimes available.

Idaan
02-08-2010, 16:24
I wouldn't say "hundreds or thousands". There are 29 named Craftworlds, and going by how about 2/3 of Marine chapters are named, I wouldn't say that there's more than 50-60 Craftworlds. But overall, while I don't agree that Avatars should be a go-to whipping boy, the rage is getting old. That predilection for killing them all the time became a joke, and I for one stopped caring.

drmarco
02-08-2010, 17:09
Just an off-hand thought...

What happens if the Avatar DOESN'T fall before the end of the battle?

Does he just slowly cool down and go inactive when the need for him has passed? Perhaps it's a pre-requisite, or at least preferred that a given 'incarnation' of the Avatar DOES die with each conflicts death, as the Eldar step down from their war footing...

Marco

Iuris
02-08-2010, 17:31
Never got mentioned. Who knows, maybe they just don't know how to stop fighting so maybe the seers "arrange" it so that ALL Avatars meet their doom in combat. Could explain some things...

Idaan
02-08-2010, 17:41
It was mentioned in the "Shadowpoint", Epic - Swordwind, and short stories accompanying WD127 from the perspective of Karhaedron - in those stories, the Avatar doesn't die, but I think it isn't exactly described how he gets back to the Craftworld. I'll make a check when I come back home. Also, note how all the stories in which the Avatar survives are from before 4th edition.

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 21:00
The old string of stories depicting Iyanden's struggle against a Keeper of Secrets, featuring the Warlock Karhedron from the 2nd edition Epic supplement Renegades does obliquely mention what happens. After being victorious and breaking the Keeper of Secrets' back, the battle turns to a slaughter in favor of the Eldar. The Avatar returns to the heart of the Craftworld afterwards.

abasio
03-08-2010, 04:24
It is not tactically or fictionally sound to have it sacrifice itself in most battles. It's the Eldar's avatar of their own desire to fight, not a punching bag.

There are literally myriads of incredible opponents for every codex' bad ass character to show off against, and it is quite plausible and acceptable for the opponent to be the avatar now and again. But have you seen the compiled list of all the Avatar deaths? It truly is ridiculous, to the point of coincidence being impossible.

I agree that some unnamed greater demons could kick the bucket with a bit more regularity but most other incredibly strong Characters in the background are just that, characters that will be missed. Avatars are not individual characters, if one is destroyed (even if it was actually killed) it wouldn't really be missed in the fluff as there are many others just like it. This I think is why they chose to pick on the Avatars more than other badasses.



EDIT: And yes, they die incredibly easy. Calgar and Fulgrim punched theirs, one stood there and took a battle cannon bombardment, and in DOW a single Blood Raven squad and force commander pulled it off.

I don't know about the DOW example but Calgar has an army of Space Marines, Fulgrim was a primarch and had a sword possessed by a demon of Slaanesh and not many things realistically should be able to stand up to sustained heavy weapons fire.

The Avatars shouldn't be indestructible but it would be nice to see one winning every now and then but come the new Eldar codex they will want to portray a character being awesome so there will be an epic stroy of a farseer defeating a bloodthirster or a phoenix lord defeating an entire battalion of IG tanks single handedly at which point people will be bitching about how an these characters shouldn't realistically be able to do that.

Or maybe they really do want to give a big screw you to all the Avatar complainers out there and even in the Eldar codex the Avatar will accidentally sucker punch itself :skull:

Iracundus
03-08-2010, 04:38
The Avatars shouldn't be indestructible but it would be nice to see one winning every now and then but come the new Eldar codex they will want to portray a character being awesome so there will be an epic stroy of a farseer defeating a bloodthirster or a phoenix lord defeating an entire battalion of IG tanks single handedly at which point people will be bitching about how an these characters shouldn't realistically be able to do that.


There was none of that in the last Codex. There hasn't been a full fledged large scale Eldar victory introduced into the background since the Eye of Terror campaign (and which GW has now backtracked on since it was beyond the current frozen timeline endpoint, and also mixed due to Eldrad being eliminated) or the 2nd edition Haranshemash. The battle of Gnosis in the Planetstrike expansion was tempered by the fact the Avatar was yet again taken down. Taking out a few expendable Guardsmen in the process is nowhere near some of the over the top feats of some SM characters. The bits in the Tyranid Codex with Hive Fleet Naga are offset by an Exodite world and craftworld getting munched, and the retconning of the Avatar's performance on Iyanden.

I'm not an Eldar supremacist and believe they should be shown to be fallible and have weaknesses and defeats like any other race. However weighing what has been expanded upon recently for each race, the Eldar have definitely become the xeno whipping boy of choice much as how the IG are the default human ones. When an Avatar bites the dust in almost every single Codex and expansion since 5th edition, versus the lack of such regularity in how other daemons or characters get bumped off, it really is hard not to notice. Even when they sort of win, the Eldar end up being portrayed as losing, either some important leader or taking horrendous losses in some pyrrhic victory.

Tymell
03-08-2010, 14:06
Can all the Avatar talk be taken elsewhere please? It's really got nothing to do with this (already broad) thread.