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Helvegr
27-07-2010, 17:44
Just to confirm with the new 8th edition rules, if I have a cannon, and I upgrade it to include an engineer, I'll still just have 3 crew members correct? So the war machine doesn't gain a wound by adding the engineer. The engineer would just replace one of the crew.

Is that correct?

Mr_Rose
27-07-2010, 17:59
Does it say "add" or "replace" in the book?

Stymie Jackson
27-07-2010, 18:06
It's an add, not an upgrade.

The bret trebuchet for example UPGRADES a crew. The dwarf war machine ADDS a crew.

So yes, you get 4 wounds on the dwarf war machine.

"You may add an engineer..." is in the Dwarf BRB.
"Upgrade one peasant..." is in the Bret BRB.

Hope that makes things more clear.

The one issue I have is that it seems to make an engineer immune to challenges under the new war machines rules. Crew are merely arbitrary counters.

So how does that work with say a Hag and a Cauldron of blood? My reading is you CANNOT challenge the hag.

Helvegr
27-07-2010, 18:07
The original rule "Additional Crew", used the terms "if a war machine has been joined by...", this rule allowed the engineer to fire the cannon in the event crew members have been slain.

This rule as been removed in the errata. The engineer is still an upgrade choice like a champion. So my assumption was that the engineer upgrade basically replaced a crew member. The master engineer, who is a character, can join the unit, but I'm assuming that doesn't provide an extra wound.

Just looking to see if I'm interpreting it correctly.

Stymie Jackson
27-07-2010, 18:11
The master engineer can't join a war machine anymore.

Engineer champions are an "Add" option. A regular champion is an "Upgrade" option. Those are literally the words used.

Helvegr
27-07-2010, 18:37
I'd love this to be true. It just seems strange that by the removal of the additional crew rule, the cannon can suddenly become 4 wounds with a 15 point upgrade.

Stymie Jackson
27-07-2010, 18:42
Actually it's always been that way....having 4 crew on a cannon or grudge thrower or bolt thrower with buying an engineer.

The removal of the additional crew rule was done because it was obsolete now:

1) Cannot recrew another weapon with crew for one that was destroyed. Before you could destroy a cannon, leaving the crew alive to join another warmachine. Can't do that anymore.
2) Master engineers cannot join war machines now, this cannot act as additional crew.

Real annoying when fighting dwarves. Note that is ALSO applies to greenskins! They can ADD an orc to the crew, greatly improving it's ability in close combat and adding an extra wound.

"An orc bully may be added..."

Haravikk
27-07-2010, 19:31
The one issue I have is that it seems to make an engineer immune to challenges under the new war machines rules. Crew are merely arbitrary counters.

So how does that work with say a Hag and a Cauldron of blood? My reading is you CANNOT challenge the hag.
The Engineer option in each war machine entry that can take it states that the engineer acts a champion in all respects, I don't believe these lines were errata'd so the engineer should still be able to issue or accept challenges like an ordinary model?

Dunno about the Hag, but since the hag is a character that is oddly a crew member then I'd probably say she should follow the same idea. The more interesting question is that if a war machine's "wounds" are determined by number of crew, what happens if you have a multi-wound crew member?

shartmatau
27-07-2010, 19:34
the dwarf FAQ actually handles what to do with multi-wound models in warmachine, with the Anvil. I haven't read the DE faq but I assume it does similar with the cauldron.

Paraelix
27-07-2010, 20:34
Pretty sure the BRB FAQ has something about champs on warmachines not being able to challenge... But I can't be bothered checking :D

T10
27-07-2010, 20:40
I could:

Q: Can a character or champion that is part of the crew of a war
machine issue or accept a challenge? (p102)
A: No.

-T10

Stymie Jackson
27-07-2010, 20:55
Well I'll be damned. No idea how I missed that in the FAQ. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Notasquick
27-07-2010, 22:31
The master engineer can't join a war machine anymore.

Yes, but it gives you a few more tactical opportunities.

1. The Master Engineer can now be placed in an infantry unit within 3" of a war machine and still use his ability.

2. Form the infantry unit up in two ranks, so that when the Master Engineer is challenged and retires to the rear rank, any casualties will fall on the unit rather than him. This usually allows the Master Engineer to fight normally in your own turn but taking a great weapon guarantees at least fighting from the second rank.

The tactical flexibility of this technique could have been so much greater if only the senseless special weapon rule had been thought out. Now we have to decide like wizards before battle what weapon combination to bring to the party. This typically boils down to either shield and hand weapon, two hand weapons, great weapon, or runic weapon. I would argue that this change has taken a lot of tactical flexibity out of the Dwarf army: Dwarfs at least should be using the best tools available for any job!

3. If the Master Engineer is placed in a unit of thunderers, do not buy a champion, instead give him at least a brace of pistols and a handgun for the same effect versus chargers. This would be even better if chargers actually ended up at short range under Rune of Challenge (similar problem with BSB and rune of Slowness).

This would be better still if support weapons (like the Flame Cannon and Organ Gun) could actually provide defensive stand and shoot responses to themselves and nearby units. That would probably help more players at least select the Flame Cannon in this edition.

4. The other option for thunderers plus war machines in close proximity, would be Rune of Dismay giving at least the opportunity to fire again. This might give limited range weapons (like the Flame Cannon and Organ Gun) the chance to earn their points back.

If only Engineers/Runes could actually make a difference to the operation of these machine then they might make both more attractive. It certainly highlights the marked difference in cost and utility between a Cannon with Rune of Forging and the Organ Gun.

sulla
28-07-2010, 03:33
So how does that work with say a Hag and a Cauldron of blood? My reading is you CANNOT challenge the hag....and presumably you only get to use her WS if she is the last model alive? Or maybe if there is her and one hag alive and it's your turn?

Zubb
28-07-2010, 06:48
btw any ideas how to resolve attacks against war machines with 2-3 types of crew with different WS and T?
say goblin machines with bullies, cauldron, casket, anvil?

Notasquick
28-07-2010, 10:22
btw any ideas how to resolve attacks against war machines with 2-3 types of crew with different WS and T?
say goblin machines with bullies, cauldron, casket, anvil?

Yet another problem of combined profiles war machines.

The logic seems to suggest treat it like a chariot close combat where attacks can be directed against the machine or characters. Use the majority crew characteristic for each part of the combat phase.

1. Choose whether attacking machine crew or a character.

A. If attacking machine use:

- majority Weapon Skill of crew that are not characters;
- majority Toughness of crew that are not characters;
- majority Armour Save of crew that are not characters;
- majority Ward Save of crew that are not characters;
- majority other rules of crew that are not characters;
- remove majority crew models first;
- wounds do not roll onto characters;

B. Otherwise attacking individual character:
- wounds do not roll onto crew;

Components:

i. Bully, Engineer, Hag Attendant, and Casket Guard, are crew not characters.

ii. Rune Lord, Death Hag, Liche Priest, and Liche High Priest, are characters. Except they now obey the machine special rule that determines casualty removal.

Opinion:

Ammend the entire war machine section of the rulebook.

Zubb
28-07-2010, 10:46
I'm afraid u are wrong.
Character who have joined a warmachine is no longer a character. He is just a part of a warmachine profile.

Macmiel
28-07-2010, 20:07
Actually everything mentioned about crew is at page 108 of Rulebook. According to table at that page, the crew cannot be separately charged, attacked, shot at or affected in anyway from their warmachine. You cannot separately choose to attack any member of the crew - You attack warmachine unit, which is combined model of the crew and the machine. Wounds are taken away and with them chosen models representing Your crew.

Regarding Anvil of Doom - Dwarf FAQ and errata mentions two important things:
1. The order at which wounds at Anvil are allocated,
2. The idea of Runelord being part of crew if Anvil of Doom is bought.
That being the case, You cannot choose to attack Runelord in anyway. First 2 wounds are allocated at Anvil Guards, then onto Runelord - be it shooting, magic or close combat. Even option for challenges were removed with recent RB FAQ and errata.

The case with multi-stat warmachines is probably this - You use stats of crew, who are actually being hit. Of course, this is only theory followed by logic - it smoothly works with Casket and Cauldron profiles and possible runes improving endurance of Runelord on Anvil (like Rune of Resistance, Master Rune of Steel etc.).

Macmiel
02-08-2010, 15:56
Actually all rules for warmachines - Additional Crew, Gunner's Pride and similar - where thrown away in recent FAQ+errata+amendments and no longer exist.

Engineers for dwarf machines are just addition to the already existing crew.

Master Engineers for dwarfs and empire support war machines in entirly different way (they do not join warmachine crew, but support it from up to 3 inches away. In this case they also get 4+ LoS! roll, when they are target of shooting/magic).

Other characters cannot join or interact with warmachines in anyway. Exception to this are characters of Anvil of Doom, Casket of Souls and Cauldron of Blood. With option of warmachines, bought for characters of this units, this characters become part of crew (which was also directly stated in FAQ).

Hjarl
02-08-2010, 16:10
But that still leaves us with the original question:

Does a dwarven cannon with a normal 15 point engineer upgrade have an extra wound, since it does indeed have an extra wound-counter aka crewmen.

shartmatau
02-08-2010, 17:01
yes the engineer upgrade for dwarf machines is essentially an extra wound and extra attack. If you give him pistols you add two more attacks instead of one and may stand and shoot with the pistol.

Macmiel
02-08-2010, 17:03
Yes, it is 15 point extra wound that allows You to reroll misfire charts and with brace of pistols adds one more attack in close combat. Engineer is addition to crew and is treated as champion of unit. Champions are integral and inseparatable part of a unit - with units of infantry if You kill every other model except champion, You do not get points for unit? Why it should work other way with warmachines?

stripsteak
02-08-2010, 19:26
yes the engineer upgrade for dwarf machines is essentially an extra wound and extra attack. If you give him pistols you add two more attacks instead of one and may stand and shoot with the pistol.

pretty sure war machines can only hold so no standing and shooting with the engineer

Stymie Jackson
02-08-2010, 20:08
Dwarf Errata states otherwise. Engineers can stand and shoot.

stripsteak
02-08-2010, 20:37
Dwarf Errata states otherwise. Engineers can stand and shoot.

ah nice, didn't know it was in their faq