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Vandelan
28-07-2010, 02:06
Hello all, I didn't see an 8E Tomb Kings Tactica per se when I was searching the Tactics forum (and when I did, too much of it was filled with queries based on speculation of the 8E rules).

I propose a new Tactica be created in order to further the aims of Khemri.

The following topics are currently on my mind:

*Lords & Heroes- Do's and Don'ts
*Skeletal Bowmen- Best unit size and best rank setup?
*Skeletal Infantry- How to run them... Spears? Horde? Just use Tomb Guard instead?
*Cavalry- Should I even bother with them?
*Ushabti- How many per unit and how to rank them?

Sadly, or thankfully these are the only topics I can think of at the moment.


I have been working specifically on calculating the effectiveness of Skeletal Infantry in combat in order to determine the best math-hammer-ematical way to deploy them.

Vandelan
28-07-2010, 03:02
*Lords & Heroes- Do's and Don'ts

First up are Tomb Kings and Princes.

-Play a Tomb King whenever possible. The improvements over the Tomb Prince are massive for what you pay for. I still recommend playing Tomb Princes as they can play a good role in the army by being added to units to boost the combat capability without paying as hefty of a price.

-Protecting your Tomb King-
My suggestions are a mix/match of The Armor of Destiny and The Dragonbane Gem or The Talisman of Preservation and The Dragonhelm (with light armor if you want) for a 5+ armor and a 4+ ward, 2+ against flaming attacks. Save the Collar of Shapesh for your Liche High Priest.

To be Continued...

Vandelan
29-07-2010, 05:06
As tacky as it is to post three times in a row, I've done a fair amount of math-hammer in order to determine the effectiveness of hordes of skeletons. Too bad Tomb Guards cannot be taken as a horde...

For my calculations I decided to match a horde of 40 skeletons with Sword & Board and then Spear and Shield in order to determine the best gap, if you will, between CR scores made by each unit. *A note on the CR scores: I almost forgot to make note of rank bonuses, but that should be the reason the final results are "off" by 1 or so.*

To keep things simple I have made the following assumptions:
1. Both Units are 40 strong.
2. All units have full command.
3. Neither unit has charged into combat
4. When testing for fear, neither a general nor a BSB are close enough for it to matter.

Also, please feel free to point out any errors I have made in either my math or my use of the rules.


Against Night Goblins w/ Spears and Nets (also assuming they made the roll for the nets)
-Night Goblins have a 72.2% chance to fail their Fear Test

S&B
The Night Goblins attack first, inflicting 5.7 wounds, then the Skeletons attack back, inflicting 4.31 wounds. Skeletons lose by 2.39
With Fear
The Night Goblins still inflict 5.7 wounds, but the Skeletons inflict 5.74 wounds. Skeletons win by 0.04

Spears
The Night Goblins attack first, inflicting 6.83 wounds, then the Skeletons attack back, inflicting 4.75 wounds. Skeletons lose by 3.08
With Fear
The Night Goblins still inflict 6.83 wounds, but the Skeletons inflict 6.32 wounds. Skeletons lose by 0.51

Against Empire Halberdiers
-The Halberdiers have a 41.6% chance to fail their Fear Test

S&B
The Halberdiers attack first, inflicting 9.57 wounds, then the Skeletons attack back, inflicting 6.46 wounds. Skeletons lose by 3.11
With Fear
The Halberdiers inflict 7.18 wounds, but the Skeletons inflict 8.61 wounds. Skeletons win by 1.43

Spears
The Halberdiers attack first, inflicting 11.48 wounds, then the Skeletons attack back, inflicting 6.15 wounds. Skeletons lose by 5.33
With Fear
The Halberdiers inflict 8.61 wounds, but the Skeletons inflict 9 wounds. Skeletons win by 0.39

Against Dark Elf Warriors w/ Shields
-The Warriors have a 27.7% chance to fail their Fear Test

S&B
The Warriors attack first, inflicting 10.12 wounds, then the Skeletons attack back, inflicting 5.15 wounds. Skeletons lose by 4.97
With Fear
The Warriors inflict 8.54 wounds, but the Skeletons inflict 6.8 wounds. Skeletons lose by 1.74

Spears
The Warriors attack first, inflicting 12.13 wounds, then the Skeletons attack back, inflicting 4.81 wounds. Skeletons lose by 8.32
With Fear
The Warriors inflict 10.25 wounds, but the Skeletons inflict 6.83 wounds. Skeletons lose by 3.42


This is only testing against three kinds of horde units amongst many possible ones. I don't think any more examples really need to be shown that mathematically, spears end up hurting more than helping in Skeleton hordes. I can take requests if anyone wants to pit the Skeletons against something I didn't consider that could somehow make spears the better choice.

EDIT- I got so involved in the math-hammering that I forgot the potential usage of Horekhah's Incantation of Righteous Smiting on the unit. I'm going to stick with my opinion as above considering the only way the Incantation is going to make a decent difference is just before the first round of combat, which is going to be incredibly situational. The other thing is that I would imagine having a horde unit like that is better served as a tarpit of sorts, rather than expecting it to put out decent amounts of damage when you could be casting that on Tomb Guard or something along those lines, or even casting the Incatation on S&B Skeletons.

Yamabushi
29-07-2010, 05:25
Thank you very much Vandelan! This will be most helpful in a game coming this week against the hated Beastmen ;)

Kirby
29-07-2010, 06:23
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260276

Vandelan
29-07-2010, 06:29
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260276

If only you had actually read the first bits of my initial post...


Hello all, I didn't see an 8E Tomb Kings Tactica per se when I was searching the Tactics forum (and when I did, too much of it was filled with queries based on speculation of the 8E rules).

I propose a new Tactica be created in order to further the aims of Khemri.

gdsora
29-07-2010, 15:11
As tacky as it is to post three times in a row, I've done a fair amount of math-hammer in order to determine the effectiveness of hordes of skeletons. Too bad Tomb Guards cannot be taken as a horde...

For my calculations I decided to match a horde of 40 skeletons with Sword & Board and then Spear and Shield in order to determine the best gap, if you will, between CR scores made by each unit. *A note on the CR scores: I almost forgot to make note of rank bonuses, but that should be the reason the final results are "off" by 1 or so.*

To keep things simple I have made the following assumptions:
1. Both Units are 40 strong.
2. All units have full command.
3. Neither unit has charged into combat
4. When testing for fear, neither a general nor a BSB are close enough for it to matter.

Also, please feel free to point out any errors I have made in either my math or my use of the rules.


That mathhammer...thank you so much...that is freaaaking amazing

Vandelan
31-07-2010, 20:50
Next up is a very interesting topic in Skeleton Heavy Horsemen. I'd been hearing mumblings from other players about using them when they didn't particularly stand out in my mind. I did write this in a sort of jumbled fashion, so I might have gotten a few things mistaken here and there, so feel free to point out my mistakes.

-Skeleton Heavy Horsemen
If you want to play Skeleton Heavy Horsemen, don't expect much from them. It didn't take me that long to realize that doing the math for this unit was nearly pointless considering their inability to remove steadfast from an opposing unit. The biggest problem with the unit is that they're just regular skeletons on a skeletal horse, fighting at the same horrible weapon skill, and the same horrible initiative. I'll just go ahead and list the pros and cons of the unit...

Pros-
-They're fast. I hate to point out the obvious, but considering nothing in the army can march, fast movement is just a little more impressive.
-They hit hard on the turn they charge. Thanks to the supporting attacks rule you'll be seeing more attacks at a lovely strength of 4 thanks to the spears.
-They have a decent save. I'm not going to say a 4+ is a con or not worth putting on the list...
-Potential for flank charge damage is good.

Cons-
-They're a little pricy for their stats. Fear can help them with this quite a bit, but it is a little much to rely on.
-Taking casualties hurts them a lot. Once a unit drops to 9 wounds, the unit becomes nearly worthless. Regaining lost wounds on this type of unit just doesn't seem like a great idea to me considering they're only getting D3 wounds back when you could be regenerating another unit for more, or even the same amount on something like Ushabti.
-They're entirely reliant on getting the charge.


If anything, Heavy Cav are only useful for flank charges, and you're going to want to play 15 in every unit you even think about playing to make sure that they have enough models to break ranks whenever they get around to a flank charge because if you think two ranks of five is enough, then after taking one casualty from anything, the potential to break ranks is just gone. Considering the opponent's shooting and then the opponent's unit attacking first more often than not in combat, 15 is the most practical number. Heavy Cav can win combat when they break ranks, but their major flaw comes in their inability to deal with steadfast as their effectiveness drops considerably after their charging round of combat.

Just for reference, the points you pay for a unit of 15 with full command is just a little bit more than a 25 strong block of Skeleton Warriors with Shields and full command. To make them work you need to have three goals:

1.You want to get a flank charge.
2.You're going to need to be absolutely sure that your unit has enough ranks to break ranks.
3.Your opponent's unit has few enough ranks to lose steadfast.

The best way to do this is to make sure that you get a flank charge on a unit that is in combat with one of your Skeleton Warrior units. Another possibility is that your opponent has a smaller unit of perhaps an elite choice that they have floating around for whatever reason.

I'm really not sure if I can say that they are worth it considering how fragile of a unit they are when keeping their three goals in mind. When dealing with losing wounds to shooting and magic and then losing wounds on the turn of the charge, the potential for them goes way down. They do offer one benefit when compared to Chariots, which is the ability to break ranks (unless I am mistaken).

gdsora
31-07-2010, 23:49
[COLOR="Silver"] They do offer one benefit when compared to Chariots, which is the ability to break ranks (unless I am mistaken).

Chariots do break ranks, but you would need a good 10 of them. So Heavy horsemen do have an easier job of accomplishing that

Vandelan
01-08-2010, 01:12
Chariots do break ranks, but you would need a good 10 of them. So Heavy horsemen do have an easier job of accomplishing that

I dunno, the BRB says that Chariots have no applicable rank value. That's actually what I based my comments on.

I just double checked the TK book's rules for chariots, and it says they rank up like Infantry and Cavalry. Thinking of 9 chariots being unable to break ranks just gave me a good laugh.

Ymir
01-08-2010, 01:56
well, rank breaking gives, at best +3 combat resolution. 3 chariots in the flank is likely to cause -at the very least- 3 wounds on almost every imaginable infantry block, so I'd say three chariots for 120 points is so much better than 15 skeleton heavy cavalry it's not even funny; the latter suck so hard I regret ever buying them.

w3rm
01-08-2010, 02:27
TK are really going to struggle in this edition. I never saw the point of warriors with sword and board in 7th and now in 8th they are just going to die faster. I bowmen and chariots are the way to go and big units of tomb gaurd with SSC for support.

Sexiest_hero
01-08-2010, 02:46
What are you guys on? TK will be doing fine. I've seen HH do ok but i'll stick with ligh horsemen because I already have Boner giants as my wacky unit.

Vandelan
01-08-2010, 02:56
TK are really going to struggle in this edition. I never saw the point of warriors with sword and board in 7th and now in 8th they are just going to die faster. I bowmen and chariots are the way to go and big units of tomb gaurd with SSC for support.

I think that a horde of sword and board warriors will do fine as an anvil unit. I of course intend to test this out using the banner with the wound healing bound spell banner. I could be easily overestimating their potential, but I believe it's there to some degree.

The main thing that people tend to overlook about skeleton warriors is the potential to be a more effective tarpit than bowmen.