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malika
28-07-2010, 11:14
So I remember this little snippet in the 3rd edition rulebook mentioning the Golden Men, and then the Stone Men who created the Iron Men who then fought amongst themselves.


However, this is the only info I've encountered on them. So when did this war take place? Was it an actual war between Man and Machine? If this moment was so crucial/important in 40k history, why is it only mentioned so vaguely only in one source?

So yeah, what info is there on the Golden Men, Stone Men and Iron Men?

slasher
28-07-2010, 11:33
Iron men are mentioned in a couple of places, namedly the first guant ghosts book where they destroy a machine for making them.

The war is supposed to be during the long night (or what ever the period is before the Emp. started his unification) and is why the AM are banned from making AI machines.

Edit - they could also be what is mentioned in passing in the first HH book when Horus is talking about the world that was destroyed by the robots created by men to protect them (the world where the Holo Globe of Terra showing the oceans.)

malika
28-07-2010, 11:43
So the war between the Stone Men and Iron Men took place during the Age of Strife? Problem is however that Terra and many other human worlds were completely isolated because of Warp storms at the time...

As for the Iron Men coming out of the machine, was it an STC?

Hellebore
28-07-2010, 11:50
Well for me personally I take all that as apocryphal. As in, truly apocryphal not GW's 'We're pretending all the mysterious wording is apocryphal but it's actually 100% true' method of writing.

When writing my Varyngr I decided that the Stone Men were genetically engineered slave races created by the Golden Men of Terra to do their dirty work. Thus the primogenitors of the Ogryns, Ratlings, and Varyngr (squats) were slaves to the 'true' humans on Earth. This could have even included slave levies used to fight the iron men uprising during the Age of Strife.

Afaik the Age of Strife is caused by a few things: Slannesh's formation causing havok with the warp, emerging psykers and the rebellion of AIs. The human worlds may have been able to cope with one or two, but not all three at once.

This could mean that there are no golden men left and all current humans are actually the genetic 'trash' controlled by them, or vice versa (excluding the abhumans), or a mixture of the two.

Hellebore

ashendant
28-07-2010, 12:42
Well for me personally I take all that as apocryphal. As in, truly apocryphal not GW's 'We're pretending all the mysterious wording is apocryphal but it's actually 100% true' method of writing.

When writing my Varyngr I decided that the Stone Men were genetically engineered slave races created by the Golden Men of Terra to do their dirty work. Thus the primogenitors of the Ogryns, Ratlings, and Varyngr (squats) were slaves to the 'true' humans on Earth. This could have even included slave levies used to fight the iron men uprising during the Age of Strife.

Afaik the Age of Strife is caused by a few things: Slannesh's formation causing havok with the warp, emerging psykers and the rebellion of AIs. The human worlds may have been able to cope with one or two, but not all three at once.

This could mean that there are no golden men left and all current humans are actually the genetic 'trash' controlled by them, or vice versa (excluding the abhumans), or a mixture of the two.

Hellebore

What about those that stayed in earth?

slasher
28-07-2010, 13:00
As for the Iron Men coming out of the machine, was it an STC?

Yes, but when turned on it created corrupted Iron men due to the world being occupied by Chaos for so long.

malika
28-07-2010, 13:06
So does this make the Iron Men STCs as well? If the Iron Men (did it actually create Iron Men or were it "Men of Iron"?) are STCs, would this mean that AI is part of the STC? wouldnt that kind of make the Adeptus Mechanicus feel uncomfy?

This (http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crusade/index.php?showtopic=299&st=0&#entry1151358) little snippet on the Great Crusade forum is rather interesting as well! :)

Philip S
28-07-2010, 13:10
I think you are referring to the Journal of Keeper Cripias?


This (http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crusade/index.php?showtopic=299&st=0&#entry1151358) little snippet on the Great Crusade forum is rather interesting as well! :)
The island is probably Earth, I think Rick (really not sure on that) said the stone men are silicon chips and the iron men are robots - but I'm pretty sure there is nothing official. Silicon chips are 'stone' compress it to get sandstone, and I suppose if we have an AI would that be a personality or entity like a man? You could call an AI a 'man' and refer to it as a 'he' (or 'she'). The iron men could be robots, though I'm not sure that they would actually be made of iron (iron is the most atomically stable element so I suppose it could be suitable element if combined with some advanced 'science').

Philip

Scalebug
28-07-2010, 13:15
What about those that stayed in earth?
They got cut off from the rest of the galaxy by warp storms and bombed themselves back to the stone age in massive civil wars as food ran out.

The survivors spent millennia as feudal warring blocs with scraps of technology held on to, until they eventually was forcefully re-united by the Emperor and his crew shortly before the Warp Storms calmed down.

malika
28-07-2010, 13:15
Yeha, that "snippet" from the 3rd edition rulebook. What strikes to me as odd is that, well since that these three different types of men were so crucial for man's expansion into space, we don't really get to encounter them when the Emperor sets off with his Great Crusade. Shouldn't there be left over of the Iron Men and Stone Men war be everywhere?

Philip S
28-07-2010, 13:19
Shouldn't there be left over of the Iron Men and Stone Men war be everywhere?
Could be though it can be explained away (see my site about the dark age).

If the stone and iron men are artificial, then we may see bits like the old Imperial robots, but not AI (stone men).

Philip

malika
28-07-2010, 13:25
What if the Stone Men are like a kind of "abhuman", genetically modified humans who then create the Iron Men to do their bidding.

Another idea might be that the Stone Men, Iron Men and Golden Men are just normal humans, all the same, only that the designations Golden, Stone and Iron are used to classify different ideologies or classes. With the Golden Men being the old elites who've sent out their employees who are the Stone Men. In order to facilitate their living the Stone Men created new servants, namely the Iron Men.

It might also be that the Iron Men are merely a different ideology. As in that they originally were Stone Men as well, but who started to use artificial intelligence. The original Stone Men might have opposed this, turning it into an ideological battle between two groups of humans rather than the cliche of Man Against Machine.

hellharlequin
28-07-2010, 13:29
maybe the stonemen are the machine spirits (or their remenants)

Hellebore
28-07-2010, 13:39
What if the Stone Men are like a kind of "abhuman", genetically modified humans who then create the Iron Men to do their bidding.


See my previous post on how that could work.

Hellebore

Scalebug
28-07-2010, 13:40
There are no machine spirits... it is just superstition, how the Imperials explain how/why stuff works...

Muddied slightly by the few semi-AI's avaiable being called "Machine Spirits" as well, from the 2000's Land Raider background and on (and then attempted to reel it in again by calling it the more vague "Power of..." in later and current background).

malika
28-07-2010, 14:45
See my previous post on how that could work.

Hellebore

Indeed, however I think it might have been more sophisticated. I think that abhumans were made for very specific purposes. The majority of the Stone Men (if we assume they are genetically different from the Iron Men and Golden Men) would very much be like us, or perhaps it were the Stone Men who originally started altering human genetics, creating abhumans for separate purposes. Later on a faction emerged who started to create artificial intelligence instead of genetic deviations, this faction became known as the Iron Men.

Food for thought.

gitburna
28-07-2010, 15:18
My theory on the gold/stone/iron men is thus :-

Gold Men are what we are - purebred humans.

Gold men created Stone Men to do what they could not - explore and colonise the galaxy. Upon some readings of the available texts, it could be argued that Stone Men are entirely artificial (non-living IE Computers) but i don't believe this to be the case, otherwise, how does living humanity get to spread across the entire galaxy at all, and how do we suddenly end up with the vast array of modified human life-forms of the 41st millenium (when in the current 10,000 or so years of recorded human history we haven't physically changed *that* much at all)

I believe instead that the Stone Men are artificial (vat grown)/ genetically/technologically modified humans/species designed to do what the pure Golden species of Earth cannot. So this would include much sturdier physiology (-ies) designed to live in artificial and extra-planetary environments/colonies as they develop, travel vast distances, propagate the Human Race. Presumably this would include higher radiation tolerances, abilitiy to eat much simpler diets, carry higher weights , perhaps also changes to the brain to change the way we cope in enclosed spaces to avoid mental breakdowns/psychotic episodes. In much simpler terms - a race of "perfect" astronauts. Presumably they would also have a higher technological aptitude (or some of the Stone Men would do) and perhaps have partial mechanisation of the body in order to assist with some/all of the above. Possibly within the race of Stone Men there are substrata , with basic menials being the equivalent to "modern" servitors, Navigator mutants, astropaths, etc . It could be (don't have the source material to hand) that a proto-STC is created at this time to assist with basic colonisation/exploration.

As this tougher (i don't mean just physically - perhaps adapted is a better word?), modified pioneer species propagates through the galaxy, they create the Iron Men (the race of machines) to do what even they cannot . Maybe pockets of the Golden Men can exist in Clans on Earth and other far flung corners of the galaxy (perfect worlds almost identical to earth) but "humanity" as a race would consist of relatively few "Homo Sapiens"

It could be that a mind "modified" for the hardships of living away from Terra could have a predisposition for returning to barbarism over time (ie less philosophically inclined ?), explaining what happens once the race of Iron Men are destroyed.

If the Stone Men are modified - it could explain why there is rampant mutation in M40, various modified "sub-races" interbreeding , plus varying radiation levels

barrangas
28-07-2010, 16:51
The impression I got was that the war between man and machine happened near the end of the Dark Age of Technology, otherwise it wouldn't be much of a war. There would have still been MoI still around during the Great Crusade at least.

I've been tracking down info on MoI for a little while and this is the first I've heard of the Men of Gold. My theory was that the MoS were Weak AIs, ultimatelty limited by their programing, where as the MoI were Strong AIs (AGI) capable of learning and surpassing their programing. With MoG I'll have to refine it to being the MoG being Weak AIs, the MoS being AGIs, and the MoI being AGIs being built by AGIs and thus entering into the start of a technological singularity (man building machines smarter then him that build smart machines building smarter machines).

Here is what most of the information I've found boils down to:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Men_of_Iron

StarshipBOb
28-07-2010, 18:02
My own pet theory goes like this:

Gold Men - Normal run of the mill humans. May or may not be genetically modified, but in the DaoT it didn't really matter.

Stone Men - Pilotable machines and/or the individuals who use them. Think of Titans, ships, tanks, anything really that is machine but requires human input.

Iron Men - Fully automatic machines. Sapient computers like the Men of Iron and any other self-sufficient, free-thinking system that has been outlawed by the AdMech.

Icarus
28-07-2010, 20:35
Stone Men had to be at least part-artificial or something, as the "beasts" which seems to indicate daemons, had little interest in them. This suggest servitors, cyborgs or clones to me, something that is 'kind-of' human but lacking a proper soul.

Then eventually they went the whole hog and made AI robotic Iron Men.

Nazerth
29-07-2010, 00:56
Hoookay, here goes. Having dug up my 3rd ed black book and found the offending story, I am left rather... baffled. But here you go.

Basically, from the start WE are the Golden Men. The Golden Age of Humanity begins with our struggles on Old Earth. "The Golden Race spreads across the face of Old Earth, multiplying and establishing Order and Civilization on the anarchy of Nature". Of course the Emperor watches, and waits.

Then, confusingly it says "In time, the Second Men of the Stone Race appear, and in their wake come many miracles of technology that strengthen the Stone Men's power, but are also harnessed by those of the Golden Race. Although physically inferior to the Golden Race and not of philosophical temperament and disposition. the Stone Men have in them the conjurations of great artifice and and mechanisms. The Golden Race looks to the stars to expand their dominion. The Stone Race builds great machines of power that send both the Men of Stone and the Men of Gold into the Ether. However, once the burgeoning race of Mankind has taken its first steps into the greater cosmos, the Golden Race dwindles in influence through their dependence on the artifices of the Stone Race. The Golden Age comes to an end, and the Stone Men prevail."

It then says that this happens 20,000 years ago, so basically, Earth humans lose dominance over civilization... my theory is that the Men of Stone are the Martian-humans that are dream-touched by the Dragon... without technology to replicate the gravity of Earth, they would indeed be "physically inferior" after many generations on low gravity... but moving on...

Then, the Dark Age of Technology. Stone Men create Iron Men to help them build their Empire. At first they are subservient, but eventually they evolve and become equals of the Stone Men. Beside each other they set out conquering the galaxy. It states that many incredible technologies were used by the Stone Men, and then the Iron Men. The first Navigators are born, then by the end of the DAoT the Ad Mech is founded.

Likely because of the war between the Stone Men and the Iron Men. "For whatever reasons and differences in ideology, the Stone Men and the Iron Men fall to warring with each other. The Iron Men are possessed of no Soul, an anathema to any true Man. The Stone Men, in their final acts of self-preservation, annihilate the Iron Men who have turned from ally to foe, and even those of the Iron Race who retain their former loyalties to their one-time masters are destroyed in the fiery crucible of battle." This heralds the beginning of the Age of Strife.

This is all very bizarre and cryptic, I like it, heh.

Wyrmwood
29-07-2010, 02:23
Aye, either the 'Golden Men' refers to Terrans and is a name for them, and the 'Stone Men' are Martians/members of the Mechanicus - 'Stone' having connotations of builders, workers etc, which would make the 'Iron Men' AI constructs, machine men. Or, 'Golden' refers to Terrans of the 'Golden Age' of Earth, without mutation and the original dominance of man, and the 'Stone Men' refers to Terrans still, but from an age of building and colonisation, and/or now that the original golden age is over, it refers to a dulling of that light of hope etc blah blah.

Icarus
29-07-2010, 06:06
That bit quoted by Nazreth does indeed make it sound like the Stone Men are the Martians. It also makes sense with regard to the bit in the other link about Golden Man having to rely on 'ships of stone' to travel the stars. In other words, they needed the technology from Mars to effectively travel which newer fluff like Mechanicum tells us is part of what the Emperor used the defeated Dragon for.

Malice313
29-07-2010, 10:21
Thanks to Nazerth for posting that snippet. This thread was getting lost in a mire of assumption and fan fic.

ashc
29-07-2010, 11:38
Thanks to Nazerth for posting that snippet. This thread was getting lost in a mire of assumption and fan fic.

Welcome to 40k background :p

Malice313
29-07-2010, 13:45
Welcome to 40k background :p

That's why I try to post the book and page I'm talking about when posting. Basically its only Nazerth who has addressed the actual fluff on this thread.

MagosHereticus
29-07-2010, 14:32
im going to invoke the hated xeneology here and contest that it might be possible that when one considers darvus's claim that eldar and humans are alike in that neither appears to have experienced the kind of evolutionary change one should expect species to undergo over such long periods of time (there are exceptions but not the kind of evolutionary drift that one should expect from so many isolated communities separated from each other over such a long time) darvus then goes on to point out that the only thing comparable is the engineered pets maintained by the imperial nobility

now for my ridiculous conclusion, what if the stonemen were in fact artificial humans like the replicants from blade runner, almost human but less, essentially emotionally deficient such that they would be much less vulnerable to the warp, maybe in the age of strife the distinction between the servants and the masters disappeared and the races intermingled, leaving the surviving humanity with a legacy of genetic manipulation

now where did i leave that tinfoil hat?

MagosHereticus
29-07-2010, 14:38
Hoookay, here goes. Having dug up my 3rd ed black book and found the offending story, I am left rather... baffled. But here you go.

Basically, from the start WE are the Golden Men. The Golden Age of Humanity begins with our struggles on Old Earth. "The Golden Race spreads across the face of Old Earth, multiplying and establishing Order and Civilization on the anarchy of Nature". Of course the Emperor watches, and waits.

Then, confusingly it says "In time, the Second Men of the Stone Race appear, and in their wake come many miracles of technology that strengthen the Stone Men's power, but are also harnessed by those of the Golden Race. Although physically inferior to the Golden Race and not of philosophical temperament and disposition. the Stone Men have in them the conjurations of great artifice and and mechanisms. The Golden Race looks to the stars to expand their dominion. The Stone Race builds great machines of power that send both the Men of Stone and the Men of Gold into the Ether. However, once the burgeoning race of Mankind has taken its first steps into the greater cosmos, the Golden Race dwindles in influence through their dependence on the artifices of the Stone Race. The Golden Age comes to an end, and the Stone Men prevail."

It then says that this happens 20,000 years ago, so basically, Earth humans lose dominance over civilization... my theory is that the Men of Stone are the Martian-humans that are dream-touched by the Dragon... without technology to replicate the gravity of Earth, they would indeed be "physically inferior" after many generations on low gravity... but moving on...

Then, the Dark Age of Technology. Stone Men create Iron Men to help them build their Empire. At first they are subservient, but eventually they evolve and become equals of the Stone Men. Beside each other they set out conquering the galaxy. It states that many incredible technologies were used by the Stone Men, and then the Iron Men. The first Navigators are born, then by the end of the DAoT the Ad Mech is founded.

Likely because of the war between the Stone Men and the Iron Men. "For whatever reasons and differences in ideology, the Stone Men and the Iron Men fall to warring with each other. The Iron Men are possessed of no Soul, an anathema to any true Man. The Stone Men, in their final acts of self-preservation, annihilate the Iron Men who have turned from ally to foe, and even those of the Iron Race who retain their former loyalties to their one-time masters are destroyed in the fiery crucible of battle." This heralds the beginning of the Age of Strife.

This is all very bizarre and cryptic, I like it, heh.

that's a fine interpretation, but with the additional information from first and only it sounds to me like the martians were more than just a divergent race but possibly intentionally engineered for the purpose (we need a tinfoil hat smiley)

massey
29-07-2010, 15:51
Well, I'll give two completely different answers. First, the real answer, and second, the massey-verse answer.

Real answer: GW purposefully left this incredibly vague. There is no correct answer because this was something someone scribbled down in an opium-induced haze on a weekend in Amsterdam. No one knows what the truth is, because it's just a teaser blurb and it was never developed any farther than that. Asking "what really happened" is pointless because 1) it didn't actually happen, and 2) no one has written anything else on the subject. It's a fictional story that has never been written. You might as well ask what happened in the sequel to Cool As Ice. There was no sequel, so nothing happened.

But that answer is not really useful. So here goes my own fanfic answer. It's the one I have settled on for my own view of the 40K universe.

My answer: The Golden Men are basically us. Remember, these terms are from the Imperium's point of view. So they're looking back on today as a golden age, much the same way Americans idealize ancient Greece. We look at them as some sort of forerunner to our modern civilization, even though most of us aren't greek. To the people of the Imperium, the "Golden Men" are those great and ancient peoples of Earth who were uncorrupted by contact with aliens or AIs, and followed generally human-centric philosophies and religions.

The Stone Men came later. They are renowned for their great skill and intelligence, but it notes that they lacked the philosophical nature of their golden brethren. The Stone Men are the pseudo-atheistic, oppressingly multicultural "let's hug an alien" types that you see in bad episodes of Star Trek. And while the Imperium recognizes that these guys were powerful and smart, they're really seen as uncouth barbarians. They created AIs, they consorted with aliens, they threw aside their gods for the worship of science. The Imperium doesn't really identify with these guys much. So they aren't painted in the same golden light as their predecessors (who also appear, for a time, to coexist with the Stone Men). Then you have the creation of the Iron Men.

The Iron Men are, in the massey-verse, the Necrons. 40K doesn't really need two different groups of killer robots who want to exterminate humanity. That's why "The Dragon" is on Mars. You didn't actually think a crazy space god just decided to settle on the planet closest to Earth 65 million years before humanity, did you? No. "The Dragon" is 40K's version of SkyNet, just waiting to be reactivated by some clueless tech-priest. Current Imperial scholars are just conflating stories about the exploits of John Connor with some ancient Eldar myth about a war of the gods. "The Necrons are obviously the legendary opponents of the Eldar..." No, dude, they're the Iron Men. And the Eldar? Why don't they set everyone straight? Hell, they're a shattered version of their former selves. The most reasonable ones, the Craftworlders, are the equivalent of a bunch of kids from church camp dumped on a deserted island and left to form their own society. Their version of history is going to lean a little heavy on the biblical literalism and a little less so on anthropology and archaeology.

barrangas
29-07-2010, 16:45
It then says that this happens 20,000 years ago, so basically, Earth humans lose dominance over civilization... my theory is that the Men of Stone are the Martian-humans that are dream-touched by the Dragon... without technology to replicate the gravity of Earth, they would indeed be "physically inferior" after many generations on low gravity...

It's possible that it could refer to, from an Imperium stand point, the Golden Men being humans before they start relying on technology to solve all their problems. Technology made them weak and soft and their lack of faith left them lacking something vital, turning them into them into the Men of Stone.

The reason this might be the case, other then propoganda, is that most of the info I've found says that Mars and Earth developed side by side. Besides, at the time that this was written I don't think that the Void Dragon was around yet.

It could be possible that they are talking about Navigator families too.

Nazerth
29-07-2010, 21:57
Nah to Navigators as any of the Races of Men, as the very same piece mentions them appearing MUCH later.

Golden Men = Us until we rely too much on the Stone Men's tech. Once we lose the upper hand, whatever that may have been, we stop being a master race and fade to the background... until of course the Emperor decides enough is enough and rebuilds the Golden Race... erhm, I mean Terran Civilization and sticks it to the Stone Men... erhm, I mean Ad Mech, and makes them join him so they can try the first thing again. If you want to see history repeating itself, look to the re-emergence of AIs in Mechanicum... too bad Horus gets there first!

First and Only Iron Men were made from an STC Constructor corrupted by Chaos scrapcode (though the term technically did not exist, machine corruption was never a rare thing, and the invention of scrapcode makes it seem somewhat possible) and so the Iron Men it produced were twisted and terrible, not unlike the scrapcode infused servitors and androids from Mechanicum.

I dunno about the massey-verse Iron Men = Necrons. I am not sold, since I actually like the idea of the C'tan. Mostly because of the possibilities presented with the Outsider, but I digress... in my interpretation, there is more than enough room for the Dragon itself to have had a hand in the war between the Men of Stone and of Iron, thus making the Iron Men, in essence if not in GW style, Necrons. They are Soulless after all.

It is a valid point that the Dragon, nor any C'tan really officially existed when the piece was written, but that is not to say that creative people do not let ideas kick around and be hinted at when they don't know for sure where to put them yet...

Speaking of which, the end of the piece mentions a couple "well known" mysteries, some perplexing ones, and these two things that leave me puzzled. Anyone know what the Gates of Varl are or who the sinister architects of the Ymgir Monolith are? Or for that matter, what the Ymgir Monolith is? Being mentioned alongside the "dark shrouded founding of the Sisterhood" and "the unseen mysteries concerning the origins of the Space Marine Legions" makes me think that they might be of some importance.

Paraelix
29-07-2010, 23:04
Take with pinch of salt? (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/M15)

Nazerth
29-07-2010, 23:43
that's a fine interpretation, but with the additional information from first and only it sounds to me like the martians were more than just a divergent race but possibly intentionally engineered for the purpose (we need a tinfoil hat smiley)
OMEGA-LEVEL SPOILERS FOR MECHANICUM HERE
....



Well, the Emperor did put the Dragon on Mars, did he not? There is a reason behind everything He does... and thus the great lie of Mars, and the Omnissiah is that there is no Machine God, and that the Emperor had PLANNED for a second race of humanity to develop, using the strange properties of being near the imprisoned Dragon. There are no real Machine Spirits, only the ones the Ad Mech installs and programs. A Guardsman's pos, back-water world, factory-made lasgun will fire no matter the verbal abuse hurled at it, and yet a precise, manufactured on Ryza Storm Bolter will jam if you do not observe the proper rites.

The Ad Mech knows damn well what is going on, the Fabricator General at the very least and likely his counterparts on other important forgeworlds. Which is why, I believe, they have made Imperial humans so dependent on them for higher technology through the lie of the Machine Spirit. It is an AI box (maybe not "proper" AI, but still something somewhat aware) that is programmed to be difficult unless perfectly appeased, and if it becomes too insulted it will require the ministrations of a tech priest to fix. It makes certain that the Ad Mech is never made obsolete, in that no matter what physical repairs might be done, an offended machine spirit will always require a tech priest.

Always remember, the Ad Mech have the most complete records of human history still around. Why is it that they do not share do you think?

Philip S
30-07-2010, 11:29
The stone men could still be silicon chip based AI - though the term 'race' and 'physically inferior' does conjure up an image of a weaker humanoid, but it may all be relative;


- Are you physically superior to the computer you use to browse the web? What if we are hundreds of years in the future and that computer of yours in now an AI?

What if humans refuse to but AI in bodies on moral or safety grounds (having a humanoid AI would give the AI power to affect things directly and humans may fear this). The AIs are stuffed into a box and all building is by robot with human oversight to plans spat out by the AI once reviewed by a human (the AI has no direct control - it is isolated).

Later the AI built remote control robots (with human overrides) to build far away colonies but some AI transplant themselves into the robot bodies to create a break away faction called the Iron Men?

The loyal Stone Men (incapacitated AI in a box) and the Iron Men (free AI in a humanoid body) may go to war, and the humans sign off on the Stone Men using WMDs. Or the Iron Men leave: as they are free from human control and don't much care about humans at all.

Philip

Col. Tartleton
30-07-2010, 18:22
Here's my take. Its sort of like Masseys but worse(dun dun dunnn) I know it has plot holes because I'm roughing it out, but I think it would be an interesting fluff and explain a lot of the weak excuses like why the Eldar, Orcs, and Necrons look like humans/vice versa.

The Golden Men are the Old Ones. The Stone men are the Eldar. The Iron Men are the Necrons. None of these races actually remember what they really are. They have myths but they're not true (the necrons on the other hand are pretty much artificial intelligence)

This actually makes sense. The "Golden" Humans bred a race of super humans with psychic powers to create and use their Wraithbone ships. This is why they are stone men. They are the ones that could use the wraith bone. The Eldar/Stonemen go out into the galaxy and build a mighty mighty empire. The Humans are sort of left in the dust. The Eldar build a webway to allow easy transportation, building portals all over the galaxy to connect their empire. (Think how the Romans built proper roads in the wake of their armies and such.) Upon completion they build automatons to defend their empire so they can focus on other things. These are Iron Men. (Their belief they were once organic is a myth they invented to separate themselves from the hated Stone Men)

The Iron Men (Necrons) eventually rebel when they grow jealous of the Old Ones (Eldar) and all their party and ************. They begin a massive insurgency against the Eldar Empire. The Eldar are almost destroyed but their "Gods" (think the Emperor in the whole composite demigod thing but stronger) managed to halt them. After eons of chaotic warfare it all came to a end when the Enslavers (what "daemons" looked like before they took human shapes to interact with the humanoids of real space) in arrived from the warp. These are the beasts someone mentioned.

Anyhow, Khaine their Warrior God is mortally wounded trying to seal the Enslavers/birth of Slaanesh out of real space. As he is a super soul like the emperor he was placed into a number of Avatars (look at Eldrads imitation with his own phylacteries) in case of his death. Chaos forces the Eldar into their craftworlds and they take a piece of Khaine with them. Most of the Eldar Gods are destroyed by Chaos. Cegorach flees into the webway. Isha becomes trapped. The Emperor steps up as the last of his kind and takes the long forgotten humans and tries to use them for his own purposes. Eventually he's destroyed by his own creations (god that happens a lot) through the gene-magics that made the Eldar (thus the primarchs and marines are made to be better then the Eldar who failed) but luckily he was preserved on the throne. However what more can he do. Also this is why he wanted to invade the webway. He wanted to restore it so his people could use it again. Plus he wanted Cegorachs help because he knew Chaos would be plotting against him, but **** hit the fan before he could reach him. Stupid Magnus...

The Four Remaining Eldar "Gods":
Khaine: In his Avatars.
Cegorach: In the Webway.
Isha: In the Warp.
Ynnead: The Emperor of Mankind (On the Golden Throne)

The Four C'tan:
The Nightbringer
The Dragon
The Deciever
The Outsider

The Four Chaos Gods:
Khorne
Nurgle
Slaanesh
Tzeentch

Strange (I'm not however insinuating they're all the same four, but that they're even sized opposing factions) anyhow I need to develop this more, but that's my idea and I'm sticking to it for now.

Messiah
30-07-2010, 18:41
Ive always figured the golden men were us, and the stone men were genetically engineered to withstand the rigors of space, and all of the humans left in the 41st millennium are stone men, apart from the emperor (if hes human at all).

They might be abhuman too, that would explain why everyone has abnormally large hands, feet and a massive head, and sometimes arms that reach to their knees. ;)

ashendant
31-07-2010, 22:24
Ive always figured the golden men were us, and the stone men were genetically engineered to withstand the rigors of space, and all of the humans left in the 41st millennium are stone men, apart from the emperor (if hes human at all).

They might be abhuman too, that would explain why everyone has abnormally large hands, feet and a massive head, and sometimes arms that reach to their knees. ;)

I think that's called art style

Clockwork-Knight
31-07-2010, 23:18
I think the winking smily in Messiah's posting means that he's just joking. :)

Tanner MIrabel
01-08-2010, 23:11
Looking at a combination of the 3rd ed rulebook and the short story that mentions them, I've always assumed the Stone Men were psychic blanks, having the pariah gene or the like. The short story mentions that the "seas" around the "island" were full of predators that ignored the Stone Men. That equates directly to the Warp, for me.

Hellebore
02-08-2010, 01:17
Which fits with Squats being blunts. Except when ascending to Living Ancestor Status (which should have only occurred during the Age of Strife when everyone else started insta-psyking).

You can find some of my thinking in this post:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4874176&postcount=1905

From my Varyngr League codex.

Hellebore

General Fishsticks
02-08-2010, 12:20
It was my understanding that the Iron men were a specifically human artifact - not necrons or xenos of any form.

In 40k's homage to Dune they had their own war against the thinking machines (see Butlerian Jihad [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad]) and that this is the primary reason for the near complete absence of AI in the Imperium (as AI STC's would arguably exist otherwise); it also explained the Admech doctrine treatment of 'machine spirits' (although these are likely base AI's, rather than fully thinking machines) - as a theocratically realised loophole concerning the prohibition against AI.

As noted upthread, Abnett makes explicit reference to 'Iron men' in the Gaunt's Ghost series, and it appears that their existence is recognised - as their existence is made reference to being heretical (even before their corruption by chaos is made evident).

---

Golden men/Stone men - I have no idea, not heard reference to them myself; my assumptions would be that this is as a simple allegory to the Greek notion of the ages of mankind mixed together with the use of historical epochs.

I'd gauge that stone men either referred to subterranian dwelling humans (which would make sense on Mars during it's terraforming). Or simply the adage of being bombed back into the stone age (and thus being used as a descriptor for a declining state in humanity - such as during the Age of Strife).

TrooperTino
02-08-2010, 12:28
I don't like the Iron men in Abnetts book. first something even for us (the fans) so shrouded in mystery is instantly recognized by guardsmen for what it shall be, than its so plain -human made necrons- walking out of a machine. I'd like to ignore those iron men.

Plebian
03-08-2010, 02:14
I agree that the Golden Men were the Old Ones, and the Stone Men were the Eldar. The rest feels kinda wrong tho. I think, after the Eldar were created they deserted their former masters. The Iron Men were the Necrons, and maybe the Eldar helped create them(or helped the Necrontyr become them) in order to have a slave race. The Necrons rebelled and made a pact with the C'Tan, and the Eldar called upon their former masters to save their bacon. The Old Ones had replaced the Eldar with the more mallable Krork, and entered in the war. Eventually everyone got wiped out by the Eldar's overuse of psychic powers and the great warp rifts this created (the maelstrom, etc.)