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chilledenuff
28-07-2010, 12:57
So reading threads here there and everywhere, people bemoan the death of guess range weaponry. If any of these people did use guess range weapons in 7th, do they still guess in 8th? You can you know, rather than place the template, guess. Put the template down where you guessed to and then follow the rules. If the template isn't centred over a model you've missed.. Just roll a misfire dice to see if you've broken your warmachine, simples

kermitthefrog3
28-07-2010, 13:14
Nice idea, I am one of the ones who mourns the loss of guess range weaponry.

I would probably do it for cannons, hellstorms and mortars, basically anything which has gotten better. Making stone throwers str 3 with AS and no d6 wounds is too much of a drop in effectiveness to constitute me having to guess, so ill just place the template for them.

Thanatos_elNyx
28-07-2010, 13:53
I don't think its the Guessers that are complaining, its the people who are being hit by the more accurate mortar fire that are complaining.

chilledenuff
28-07-2010, 13:56
true, but they could suggest my solution to thier opponents

vinush
28-07-2010, 14:03
Yeah, cos that won't make them sound like they're whining. In my experience the ranged weaponry are only of use for a turn or two at most. After that the bulk of the enemy is in combat and your ranged stuff is next to useless.

THE \/ince

chilledenuff
28-07-2010, 14:27
Wasn't considering it might sound like people were whining, suppose it would, of course the owner of the mortar could just offer :p
I've found that my o&g rock lobber can find a target through out the game. That is why I have a night goblin warboss with a folding fortress after all :D

Ultimate Life Form
28-07-2010, 14:29
I'm happy with guessing gone; now I might actually pack some warmachines and be the one who dishes out the hurt for a change! :D

Any rumors on a Plagueclaw Catapult...? :shifty:

willowdark
28-07-2010, 14:36
Though I appreciate the motivation to make Warhammer more accessible to newer or, dare I say, less skilled players, I can't help but feel like guess range weapons at least ask you to do something and then reward you for doing it well. That has to be a good thing.

Taking that away essentially just hands the result to the player without asking for an effort.

And I know, even against players who guessed accurately more often than not, there have been several occasions where a bad guess+scatter was the difference between a long hard fight and an early loss. That's the definition of excitement to me.

In a contest between equals victory is usually determined by who makes the first, most crucial mistake. Asking for a guess on an artillery shot was a good opportunity for such a mistake, and I banked on it more often than not when rushing forward with my TMan against an Empire gunline.

But at the end of the day I'll play the rules as written, unless there is a popular movement to house rule it. I wouldn't suggest it though.

pkain762
28-07-2010, 15:09
i was pretty descent at guessing, but i am definately going to take advanage of the new rules....

I see all of the new rules as a way to speed the game up, and i do welcome speeding the game up. Too many times a gunline player would sit there and figure out his guess ranges... it just took too long....

gw did the same thing with charges... and shooting.... they've taken some of the guess out to speed up the game... and honestly the artillery die is still going to make the artillery random...

in real life, artillery has aiming points to make their fire accurate.... so it's hard to say that artillery fire can't be that accurate in fantasy

the warmachine i hate the most doesn't even guess.... and that's the damn organ gun.... i hate midgets

kain

Witchblade
28-07-2010, 15:12
Good riddance, I'd say. Guessing significantly slowed down the game and never excited me much. It just seems like such an arbitrary skill unrelated to the tactical component of the game. Of course in practice guessing was only semi-guessing anyway, as most people (I know) used many benchmarks established previously in the game.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
28-07-2010, 15:23
Guess range was a waste of time.

Anyone who played with artillery hit spot on after 2-3 games, so it really was a waste of time looking at your opponent, when he was about to decide, whether he should guess 33" or 33.5".

Losing guess ranges did nothing but speed up the games IMO :)

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-07-2010, 15:28
Yup, Lord of Divine Slaughter got it spot on. Guess range weapons were never inaccurate anyway so all it have done is saving a few minutes every shooting phase as we now don't have to fuss over the "guessing" aspect.

And even better it opened the door for premeasuring which should cut down on arguments and and speed up gameplay as well.

Rogue
28-07-2010, 15:32
in real life, artillery has aiming points to make their fire accurate.... so it's hard to say that artillery fire can't be that accurate in fantasy


With current mapping I would agree with you. Using GPS you can get within one meter of where you want to be. Using earlier generation mapping, you had very superior maps due to aeral photo reconnasiance that most likely had grids to coordinate fire.

However, WFB has no setting that is close in technology to what they had during WWI let alone now. We need to think this in real life five hundered years ago. You may have someone that can fly over the battlefield in the Warhammer world but they cannot take pictures to bring back to make an accurate rendition for the artillery core. Now I used geometic principles to make my decisions back in the 7th edition when I guessed my war machines, and I honestly think that five hundered years ago artillery commanders were using that more than anything else to make their decisions.

Botjer
28-07-2010, 15:46
@ Rouge, that was a lump of semiscientific hoppycock. it is true that gps isnt perfect, on the other you could use gps to aim a missile at a bunkers airvent from the other side of the world....

as for modern day ballistics we can actually hit the exact same spot for anything in line of sight.

back in the day of field artillery you would only fire with accuracy at things you could actually see. but then your aim wasnt that far off, because they had figured out ballistic charts and such by then.


anyhow. has anyone actually calculated the chance of two experienced gamers guessing. and compared it to the artillery die to see which had the most influence?

theunwantedbeing
28-07-2010, 16:07
anyhow. has anyone actually calculated the chance of two experienced gamers guessing. and compared it to the artillery die to see which had the most influence?

Aside from overguessing nonsense, there's no difference to be honest.

When you're good enough to hit the head of whoever you want with your guess its just the scatter/artillery dice that determines how good the shot really is.
Just as it is now that guess ranges are gone.

I miss playing against newer players who are wildly inaccurate of course, but overall the removal of the need to guess is a good one.
Having been playing vs people who are as accurate as just placing the template, the change is minimal for me.

CrystalSphere
28-07-2010, 16:11
I donīt miss guessing weapons, but what concerns me is that now those old guessing weapons are way too accurate. I donīt like how some ranged weapons use ballistic skill to determine if they hit, while others just ignore it completely. I think all machines should be similar to bolt throwers and BS should matter for all of them equally.

chilledenuff
28-07-2010, 16:15
the warmachine i hate the most doesn't even guess.... and that's the damn organ gun....

Doesn't everyone hate the organ gun :D
I personally am using the new rules (I couldn't guess for toffee first shot (and that's the one where the doom diver really wants to hit that unit of chaos knights!) in 7th so the change is a real boon for me. I just suggested it for those who loved guess ranges

willowdark
28-07-2010, 16:20
It seems like those that are grateful for the change are the ones that used guess range weapons in their armies.

As I've said, from the other side of the board I found it comforting that there was a chance my opponent could fudge his guess and not get that shot off accurately against what was usually a very expensive and important target.

Counting on that was a gamble that made the game interesting.

mostlyharmless
28-07-2010, 16:23
I liked guess range weapons. It made me feel like an old school artillery commander ranging the guns whenever I fired my cannon down range. Now, apparently, I don't have to range my guns because I've already calculated the ballistics of the battlefield and can place a shot anywhere. I don't like it, removes the need for the skill I took time to develop.

chilledenuff
28-07-2010, 16:24
there is still the chance of a misfire, however I've noticed my mate who plays dwars suddenly is using grudge throwers with runes on now, he never used them before though

Rogue
28-07-2010, 16:28
@ Rouge, that was a lump of semiscientific hoppycock. it is true that gps isnt perfect, on the other you could use gps to aim a missile at a bunkers airvent from the other side of the world....

as for modern day ballistics we can actually hit the exact same spot for anything in line of sight.


back in the day of field artillery you would only fire with accuracy at things you could actually see. but then your aim wasnt that far off, because they had figured out ballistic charts and such by then.


anyhow. has anyone actually calculated the chance of two experienced gamers guessing. and compared it to the artillery die to see which had the most influence?

So what you are telling me is that five hundered years ago, artillery commanders had the ballistic charts by then to accurately target what they see? This was a time more than a century before Newtonian Physics was introduced and only two hundred years after they were introduced to gunpowder. They just got to a point where they could make sure that the damn gun would not blow up half of the time. I don't see how they would have any accurate charts because they did not have the physics to determine accurate charts. Trail and error is the only knowlege that they had at the time, be it a chart or in the minds of the artillery crews. Would you consider that to be more or less reliable to a chart based on scientifically proven laws and principles 150 years later or so?

mostlyharmless
28-07-2010, 16:40
However, the Empire HAS Newtonian physics. You can't exactly do any kind of engineering without them, at least nothing like what the Empire makes. Also, the way canon were sighted back in the day was pretty simple: they fired shot down range prior to the battle to sight the guns, just like sighting a rifle.

dragonet111
28-07-2010, 17:17
IMO no more guessing change absolutely nothing. I don't use guess weapons but a friend of mine use a several canons (He plays dwarfs) and even before 8ed he could already snipe every thing he wanted.

I'm pretty sure that most players with a few years of gaming and guessing can do the same, so now he doesn't have to guess? no big news he was already able to do that. :D

pkain762
28-07-2010, 18:17
i was more or less talking about real life artillery during say the civil war. They were using delayed fuses and different types of rounds that were very accurate and effective....

commanders would recon the battlefield prior to the battle. Marking benchmarks and aiming references....

bottom line is artillery has been accurate for a long time, and i am glad that guessing is gone... because it did slow down the game.

willowdark
28-07-2010, 18:20
It didn't slow the game down.

I'm going to guess... uhmm... 36 inches.

There, done.

Dark Aly
28-07-2010, 18:52
it did slow the game because even if you were good at it you had to get it to the best 1/4" so it landed just where you wanted. with 2 cannons and 2 mortars it took about 2 mins just to guess the correct range. never missed though. single characters out of units would be hit by my mortars as easily as my cannon. makes no difference to the effectiveness of my artillery.

no partials on the other hand......thats just evil, EVIL.

Rogue
28-07-2010, 18:57
However, the Empire HAS Newtonian physics. You can't exactly do any kind of engineering without them, at least nothing like what the Empire makes. Also, the way canon were sighted back in the day was pretty simple: they fired shot down range prior to the battle to sight the guns, just like sighting a rifle.

Knowing how things work (technology and engineering base) and knowing why things work (scientific base) are two different bases of knowlege. While I would agree that usually engineering and technology reflect the current scientific base of knowlege at any given point of time. However there are times where Western civilization was technically advanced and yet did not have an advanced scientific base to go along with it. The Romans are the best example for this. They knew how steam power worked (albeit as a toy for children) but not why it worked the way that it did. They also had advanced medical technique and facilities that effectively combated infection and various other ailments, yet no doctor could tell the difference between a profile of bacteria and a skidmark.

While the empire is technically advanced in the warhammer world, they are still just poking out of the middle ages. While they have the steam tank and know how it works. They dont know why it works the way that it does. The background of the empire used to have only 8 steam tanks available to us, because that was all that was left of the fleet for them. I cant remember the original number, but several blew up for no apparent reason and they stopped building them. If they have any concept of newtonian physics I really dont think that they have either the whole picture, or it would be in the experimental stages and not cannonized as physical Law.

Rogue
28-07-2010, 19:02
i was more or less talking about real life artillery during say the civil war. They were using delayed fuses and different types of rounds that were very accurate and effective....

commanders would recon the battlefield prior to the battle. Marking benchmarks and aiming references....

bottom line is artillery has been accurate for a long time, and i am glad that guessing is gone... because it did slow down the game.

Well I would agree that if you think that artillery in the warhammer world had the sophisication of the 1800's then I would agree that guessing is unneccessary. However, I dont see the warhammer world as that era but rather a few centuries before that time. There you would have cannons that were not nearly as reliable.

CarlostheCraven
28-07-2010, 19:10
Hi

I have to say that I am glad guessing is gone.

I am excellent at placing my shot whereever I need it to go - I have been using screaming skull catapults since the Undead book - just like my experienced opponents, to the point where having to guess was at best a formality and, at worst, a waste of time.

By removing the need to guess, new players that aren't carpenters can use these items effectively. I say "Good." A player's ability to guess 12" or 15" shouldn't impact the effectiveness of trained war machine crew in the game.

Any change that reduces a barrier to entry - something unfun or needlessly difficult - for a new player that really had no impact on a game between experienced players is a good one.

Kudos to GW for getting rid of this exercise altogether.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

rtunian
28-07-2010, 19:21
i would have liked to have the option to "place" or "guess", and if i guess instead of place, perhaps i only scatter 1/2 the distance. alas...

Lord of Divine Slaughter
28-07-2010, 19:42
Elven artillery effectiveness is based on a stat that you pay points for.

Why should other races effectiveness be dependant on a the player?

Haravikk
28-07-2010, 19:48
I personally don't miss guess range weaponry, as most people just got used to judging the distances anyway so it meant the guess was largely just to account for scatter/random extra range anyway, so to me this new method seems just fine, as it no longer penalises people who were hopeless at guessing, which is especially common for new players anyway if they're not used to judging distances already.

Aluinn
28-07-2010, 19:57
In 8th, mortars, the Hellstorm Battery, and maybe even stone throwers may have gotten better due to the removal of guessing (even for people who were pretty good at it, because being a few inches off can make a big difference), but I do believe in many ways cannons got worse (though they are still useful for killing monsters and the like of course). And with all this, war machines have fewer turns to fire because infantry can cross the board so much faster--if they have two turns to do their shooting in, they darn well better be good, given that they still might scatter off target or misfire. It's truly a pretty risky proposition to rely on them.

Now when everything goes right for gunline armies with their artillery, they will probably score a very solid win, and the unfortunate opponent in this case may develop an impression that they are OP. However, if the gunline player has some bad luck, they will probably get stomped. This makes it a pretty unfun type of army to play with and against IMO, but it doesn't make it *too good*. It just relies on a small number of dice rolls.

So, my point is, war machines really do need to be more accurate in 8th, and they probably need the autohit on partials too. The new rules should work fine and give no one reason to complain at all when they are used in a balanced army that doesn't have half its points invested in template weapons.

Aside from that, guessing made games between experienced players and novice players even more unbalanced than they should be (unless of course one thinks of range guessing as a tactical skill, but I personally don't), so I think from a designer's perspective it was desirable to remove it, and the way it was done with 8th seems the best to me. If it came out in playtesting that former guess-range weapons were either too good or not good enough, GW could have just adjusted the scatter distance accordingly, and probably did so. That's enough to tune it.

I understand that people who enjoyed it might miss it, but really it was a sub-skill that didn't have anything to do with even mathhammer, much less tactical maneuvering of your units and such. I never liked it that the outcomes of games could hinge on such a thing.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-07-2010, 20:19
i would have liked to have the option to "place" or "guess", and if i guess instead of place, perhaps i only scatter 1/2 the distance. alas...
So essentially the same as now, only you get to choose if you want to scatter the full distance or only half?