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New_guy
28-07-2010, 18:04
Could they become the new marines of tzeentch like the 1000 sons?

Devastator
28-07-2010, 18:10
its told in dow2 that parts of the raven hq are traitors and chapter master is maybe possesed

barrangas
28-07-2010, 18:21
Technically it's possible that Ultramarines or Imperial Fists could go to Chaos, but not very likely. I think Blood Ravens will remain locked in a grey area with the occassional civil war.

Sunfang
28-07-2010, 18:30
Technically it's possible that Ultramarines or Imperial Fists could go to Chaos, but not very likely. I think Blood Ravens will remain locked in a grey area with the occassional civil war.

I agree with this.

GW has no reason to send them over the brink and provide an interesting niche in chapter selection/options.

Clockwork-Knight
28-07-2010, 20:05
All space marines except the grey knights could turn to chaos. Some chapters had a few members go worshipping weird pseudo-sentient warp storms, other chapters completely went over to the ruinous powers, and some more never had anybody doing something like that. Grey knights are trained with the 666 rites of detestations, so that they abhor chaos and daemon posession (I guess the grey knights will get annoyed if that happens again)

SharpSilver
28-07-2010, 20:33
Any Space Marine can be tainted by Chaos, however some are expectationally resilient to it, for example, the Sons of Russ. If a Space Wolf is afflicted enough by Chaos it will accelerate the process of transforming into a Wulfen.

Some other chapters with genetic manifestations such as the Blood Angels may also have a reaction to Chaos, but I have no idea. :shifty: It is possible though.



Space Wolves are exceptionally resistant to the malign influence of Chaos. It is believed that the 13th Company have only been able to survive living as loyalist marines in the Eye of terror so long precisely because of this trait.

I read up somewhere that, the fluff from the DoW series stated that the 5th Company of the Blood Ravens was Lost in the Warp not long after being tainted by Chaos from one of the many Librarians in the Company. The Blood Ravens after all have a high number of Librarians in their midst, so it would be possible for a Blood Raven to be corrupted as far as I'm aware.

Crazy Ivan
28-07-2010, 22:43
I read up somewhere that, the fluff from the DoW series stated that the 5th Company of the Blood Ravens was Lost in the Warp not long after being tainted by Chaos from one of the many Librarians in the Company. The Blood Ravens after all have a high number of Librarians in their midst, so it would be possible for a Blood Raven to be corrupted as far as I'm aware.
This was mentioned in their Index Astartes article, about the "5th company of M38". The current 5th Company are still known as the "Fated", even though the Chapter denies any evidence of Chaos corruption, of course...

The, there's always Librarian Isador Akios, of DOW I...

Wyrmwood
29-07-2010, 02:09
Crazy Ivan sometimes speaks the truth...






Vulcan Raven quote, I felt it fitting.

Hellebore
29-07-2010, 02:53
Some do in DoWII (game).

Hellebore

Malice313
29-07-2010, 05:59
Anyone can turn to Chaos... ANYONE

MajorWesJanson
29-07-2010, 06:17
Anyone can turn to Chaos... ANYONE

Except the Emperor, Grey Knights, and most Pariahs.

New_guy
29-07-2010, 06:26
Ok, thx guys :)

Malice313
29-07-2010, 06:29
Except the Emperor, Grey Knights, and most Pariahs.

I wouldn't put Grey Knights above it.

gitburna
29-07-2010, 12:59
The Maledictum..is...MINE !!!

DarthMcBob
29-07-2010, 19:06
I wouldn't put Grey Knights above it.

Not one of them has ever fallen to Chaos in thousands of years of existance. That's a pretty good track record.

Also, I doubt Orks could. They're already too insane to be corrupted.

C'tan couldn't, with the Warp be anathema to them and all.

Necrons couldn't, what with being mindless slaves to the C'tan and all.

While individual Tyranids might be able to be corrupted physically (as in, mutated), the power of the Hive Mind is far too great for Chaos to pose a threat to their race as a whole. They have no souls, and the Hive Mind has no emotion that could be used to corrupt it to Chaos. In fact, the Hive Mind is the ultimate antithesis to the Chaos Gods. They are Warp entities formed of pure emotion, while the Hive Mind is a giant, biological Warp supercomputer. Where they are driven by passion and nature, it is driven by pure cold logic and hunger. It's power is so great that the only thing that threatens its psykers is not daemonic attacks, but rather overloading themselves with its vast power. So therefore I would say the Tyranids as a whole stand no chance of being corrupted.

Cluveru
29-07-2010, 19:32
Also, I doubt Orks could. They're already too insane to be corrupted.



There's some quite nify artwork in codex: Daemonhunters showing som nurgle-worshipping Orks. Also there's mention of them mistaking him for Gork or Mork.

Zweischneid
29-07-2010, 19:51
Not one of them has ever fallen to Chaos in thousands of years of existance. That's a pretty good track record.


"If a man dedicates his life to good deeds and the welfare of others, he will die unthanked and unremembered. If he exercises his genius bringing misery and death to billions, his name will echo through the millennia for a hundred lifetimes. Infamy is always more preferable to ignominy."
- Fabius Bile

DarthMcBob
29-07-2010, 20:13
"If a man dedicates his life to good deeds and the welfare of others, he will die unthanked and unremembered. If he exercises his genius bringing misery and death to billions, his name will echo through the millennia for a hundred lifetimes. Infamy is always more preferable to ignominy."
- Fabius Bile

"If a man decides to dedicate himself to Chaos, he will be purged by the Imperium. Failing that, he will eventually die on the battlefield or be turned into a Chaos Spawn and his soul will be a snack for the Chaos Gods."

-DarthMcBob

Hamsterman126
29-07-2010, 20:24
It is rumoured that the blood ravens gene seed was the left over gene seed of a legion that had the psychic trait, this could be from the thousand sons or that of a lost legion. Psychics are more receptive to chaos as there powers stem from the warp, meaning that it is very likely that with most of the chapter being librarians that the blood ravens could be very easily turned if enought come under the sway of deamons.

Butcher of Vraks
30-07-2010, 02:50
You should play Chaos Rising, the Dawn of War games expansion.

The chapter master turns to Nurgle after having been trapped on a Space Hulk and losing his mind.

Askil the Undecided
30-07-2010, 03:30
GENESEED CANNOT MAKE YOU A PSYKER!

Being a psyker I something you are born with, it is the opposite of being a pariah it is part of who you are, like dyslexia, autism.

Like your natural hair or eye colour it might take time to finally express itself but like the shape of your cells you can't change it.

The BR have more psykrs because they recruit more psykers not because their geneseed magically changes your genetics and soul into that of the next stage of human evolution.

Also if Xenology is to believed it's probably harder to make psykers space marines due to their improved immune systems increasing the chances of organ rejection of the astartes implants. Kinda makes understand why the librarium of most chapters is quite small.

Malice313
30-07-2010, 03:36
Not one of them has ever fallen to Chaos in thousands of years of existance. That's a pretty good track record..

True, but even after thousands of years of perfect track records Primarchs fell to Chaos. Grey Knights are just men.

Askil the Undecided
30-07-2010, 03:43
True, but even after thousands of years of perfect track records Primarchs fell to Chaos. Grey Knights are just men.

Actually the Primarchs were around three hundred during the HH. (Under IIRC.)

Grey Knights are hardly men, they are mindraped hypnotically indoctrinated zealots who have taken one too many mind scrubs and cannot function as humans due to the ritualised crushing of their sense of self.

As such they are great anti-Chaos weapons as they are too stupid and willfully ignorant to be tempted.

Malice313
30-07-2010, 04:02
Actually the Primarchs were around three hundred during the HH. (Under IIRC.)

Grey Knights are hardly men, they are mindraped hypnotically indoctrinated zealots who have taken one too many mind scrubs and cannot function as humans due to the ritualised crushing of their sense of self.

As such they are great anti-Chaos weapons as they are too stupid and willfully ignorant to be tempted.

I still maintain that under all the indoctrination etc, they are still men and still fallible. Given the right circumstances and time, anyone can be tempted. There is no such thing as absolutes, especially when talking about Chaos.

Clockwork-Knight
30-07-2010, 04:27
Geneseed was created from the primarchs. The primarchs were warp-infused (and might possibly be genetically close to the Emperor, who's the mightiest human psyker ever born, perhaps even stronger than an eldar). It is not unlikely that the geneseed, which is also warp-tainted in some kind, might awaken some latent psychic gene in the aspirants.
Or perhaps only those children with a higher predisposition towards psychic powers can receive the geneseed implants.
After all, some aspirants do die from getting the additional organs or mutate in an unacceptable manner, because their body rejects it, even if the apothecary were thoroughly examining the young boys.

barrangas
30-07-2010, 04:38
GENESEED CANNOT MAKE YOU A PSYKER!

Being a psyker I something you are born with, it is the opposite of being a pariah it is part of who you are, like dyslexia, autism.

Actually, I've heard of cases where head trauma of some kind causing dyslexia (and weirder). Autism isn't something we understand yet. I've met people who haven't gotten their kids vaccinated because there are some reports that link it to autism. We barely understand how the brain works.

So who's to say that GW's sci-fi biology can't trigger psychic powers in people and that some cause it more often then others. Most of what I've read about K Sons seems to support that it does. I can't imagine they went out to find all the mutants they can to make Space Marines out of. It seemed more likely that the geneseed triggers mutation and psykers are mutants.

Ultimately it all boils down to the same reason why the Blood Ravens will remain mostly loyal, because that's what the story writers want.

Rat Catcher
30-07-2010, 05:04
In the Dawn of War omnibus it's shown that the Blood Ravens recruit from worlds that have a high population of psyker mutations. Gabriel is forced to exterminatus one because the mutations become more severe.

I assume it's just that they purposefully (or accidentally) recruit from worlds with a lot of psykers; not that they somehow awaken psychic gifts in aspirants.

DarthMcBob
30-07-2010, 06:18
I still maintain that under all the indoctrination etc, they are still men and still fallible. Given the right circumstances and time, anyone can be tempted. There is no such thing as absolutes, especially when talking about Chaos.

Sure there is. For example, the Tyranid Hive Mind cannot fall to Chaos because its nature is the utter antithesis of the Chaos Gods and Chaos in general. Where they are formed by the emotions of sentient creatures with souls, it is the commanding force of a race of soulless monstrosities. Where they act from passion and their own nature, it acts with cold logic. Where they are giant Warp vortexes of emotion, it is a giant biological Warp supercomputer. They corrupt using emotions and feelings, of which it has none. Therefore, the Tyranid Hive Mind is immune to Chaos corruption.


Geneseed was created from the primarchs. The primarchs were warp-infused (and might possibly be genetically close to the Emperor, who's the mightiest human psyker ever born, perhaps even stronger than an eldar).

I'm sorry, but what? The Emperor "might" be stronger than an Eldar? When was the last time an Eldar unleashed a psychic attack so powerful that it:

a) Forced all four Chaos Gods to abandon their primarch pawn and run for their lives or face destruction?

b) Killed said primarch pawn?

c) Utterly obliterated said primarch's soul, just to be good and sure that he was gone?

In contrast to all of that, the Eldar are powerless to prevent their souls getting munched on by just one Chaos God should their shiny rocks break.

Hellebore
30-07-2010, 06:32
Yes, in the grand scheme of 'who's betta than who' primarchs should be better than grey knights. So if a primarch can turn to chaos there should be no logical reason why a grey knight can't.

There have been chaos sororitas and they're so pious that they get special supa powerz.

A grey knight is at least a loyal servant and at most a 'marked cultist' of the Emperor. The chaos gods place great importance on the souls of their rivals. If Slannesh can tempt a khorne worshipper to them it's a great victory. As that does happen, turning a grey knight to a chaos god should be no different than turning a Nurgle worshipper to Tzeentch. Very hard, but not impossible.

Hellebore

DarthMcBob
30-07-2010, 06:47
Yes, in the grand scheme of 'who's betta than who' primarchs should be better than grey knights. So if a primarch can turn to chaos there should be no logical reason why a grey knight can't.

Not necessarily. The primarchs didn't think of the Emperor as a god. Also, they grew up on world away from him, while the Grey Knights get to undergo the 666 Mindrapes Trials of the Emperor to beat all sense of self out of them.


There have been chaos sororitas and they're so pious that they get special supa powerz.

Where? They only examples I've seen were under the control of a psyker who has the ability to control anyone's mind with his voice. Even then they committed suicide when in the presence of a blank rather than serve him anymore.


A grey knight is at least a loyal servant and at most a 'marked cultist' of the Emperor. The chaos gods place great importance on the souls of their rivals. If Slannesh can tempt a khorne worshipper to them it's a great victory. As that does happen, turning a grey knight to a chaos god should be no different than turning a Nurgle worshipper to Tzeentch. Very hard, but not impossible.

Hellebore

There is a reason that they have never fallen to Chaos before, you know. There are fundamental differences. Chaos Space Marines and cultists are ultimately selfish and in it for themselves. That makes them possible to tempt and corrupt with power. Grey Knights have said sense of self beaten out of them and have a very specific hatred of Chaos beaten in.

Hellebore
30-07-2010, 07:12
Hence the use of fundamentally opposed chaos gods as examples.

Hellebore

DarthMcBob
30-07-2010, 07:32
Hence the use of fundamentally opposed chaos gods as examples.

Hellebore

While the Chaos Gods are different, their followers' motives for following them are ultimately selfish. The Grey Knights' reasons for following the Emperor are not. Such a sense is long beaten out of them. The Chaos Gods must have emotions and selfishness in order to corrupt someone's soul. The Grey Knights lack this selfishness. Also, they have a very specific hatred of Chaos beaten into them. Also, if the Dark Gods really could do it, don't you think they would have by now in the thousands of years the Grey Knights have existed?

Malice313
30-07-2010, 08:56
While the Chaos Gods are different, their followers' motives for following them are ultimately selfish. The Grey Knights' reasons for following the Emperor are not. Such a sense is long beaten out of them. The Chaos Gods must have emotions and selfishness in order to corrupt someone's soul. The Grey Knights lack this selfishness. Also, they have a very specific hatred of Chaos beaten into them. Also, if the Dark Gods really could do it, don't you think they would have by now in the thousands of years the Grey Knights have existed?

And if Chaos had turned one, do you think the Imperium would be telling anyone about it?

The thing is that it is impossible to brainwash the selfish nature out of people. The Soviets tried very ,very hard to do this.

I think the notion that no Grey Knight is corruptible has less to do with fluff and more to do with philosophical views on the morality of man.

Its nice, if a little naive, to think that there are people who have impervious will to carry out their duty to death, but the reality is that everyone has a breaking point.

When you look at death squads of zealots through history they all have several things in common: Extremely high levels of desertion, substance abuse and suicide. This is because the human mind does not have unflinching resolve to duty, no matter how indoctrinated it is.

Zweischneid
30-07-2010, 14:18
And if Chaos had turned one, do you think the Imperium would be telling anyone about it?

The thing is that it is impossible to brainwash the selfish nature out of people. The Soviets tried very ,very hard to do this.

I think the notion that no Grey Knight is corruptible has less to do with fluff and more to do with philosophical views on the morality of man.

Its nice, if a little naive, to think that there are people who have impervious will to carry out their duty to death, but the reality is that everyone has a breaking point.

When you look at death squads of zealots through history they all have several things in common: Extremely high levels of desertion, substance abuse and suicide. This is because the human mind does not have unflinching resolve to duty, no matter how indoctrinated it is.

Um, Soviets? Death Squads? Seriously? It's Space Fantasy with Chaos=Corrupting Evil and - as a corollary to that - Grey Knights = Incorruptable Good.

I think rather than looking into Soviet Gulag's, you ought to look into Fantasy & Sci-Fi literature for opposite pairings; the figure-of-light to every temptation-of-darkness, etc.. .

If GW says Grey Knights are incorruptable, than that's what they are. And if Grey Knights were ever corrupted, the laws of pulp-literature would demand that some new "super-Grey-Knight" organisation would be retconned into the setting that would be really incorruptable this time.

Goosey_J
30-07-2010, 14:45
And if Chaos had turned one, do you think the Imperium would be telling anyone about it?

The thing is that it is impossible to brainwash the selfish nature out of people. The Soviets tried very ,very hard to do this.

I think the notion that no Grey Knight is corruptible has less to do with fluff and more to do with philosophical views on the morality of man.

Its nice, if a little naive, to think that there are people who have impervious will to carry out their duty to death, but the reality is that everyone has a breaking point.

When you look at death squads of zealots through history they all have several things in common: Extremely high levels of desertion, substance abuse and suicide. This is because the human mind does not have unflinching resolve to duty, no matter how indoctrinated it is.

Can't really compare the psychology of a real life man to the psychology of a super human killing machine which has had access to all kinds of wonderful sci fi make believery to make him how he is. That's an exercise in pointlessness my friend.

This argument can be resolved very simply.
Games Workshop say Grey Knights are immune to Chaos. They also say that not a single Grey Knight has been corrupted.
Therefore, it is safe to say that until Games Workshop say otherwise, Grey Knights are incorruptible.
The point of a Grey Knights within the 40k universe is so Games Workshop have a force of ultimate (note how I highlighted that) good guys for the Imperium.

I personally don't see them going out of the job any time soon.

Col. Tartleton
30-07-2010, 17:18
The Grey Knights are incorruptible. They are not however "incorruptible good."

Warning this is my interpretation based on reasoning and the fluff. The fluff seems to just portray them as marines who just aren't worried about chaos, but I think they are very different mentally.

They are the remains of emotionless killers broken down to the point where they don't feel. You can't defeat their tranquility. They're like Bodhisattvas. Chaos can't corrupt them because its not on their level. They don't actually care about anything. They can't be swayed. When a Daemon offers them immortality they laugh and say "All things must end." When a Daemon offers them all the pleasures in the world they laugh and say "Life is suffering." When a Daemon says it can make them undefeatable they smile and say "All things must end." When Tzeentch offers them power they say "Authority is earned not given." They are Buddhist. They know themselves to be more powerful then any Daemon. They know they can't be defeated, only killed. They know that being killed is not the end so they do not fear it. They embrace it. The only thing a Daemon can offer them is death, and that's all they'll offer the Daemon.

Marines are almost at this level, but they are still human enough to have doubts and stuff. That's why they can fall. Its harder to corrupt a marine because they're so honor and duty bound. But they can fall just like a regular person. Grey Knights are not people. They are Bodhisattvas. They are Order embodied. It is cold and sterile and unfeeling. I don't like the idea of them being human, it doesn't suit them. Marines should barely be recognized as human mentally. A Grey Knight should be a god among men.

Sisters of Battle are more traditional religious fanatics. Most can be corrupted I think, but some are very hard to corrupt. These being the ones performing miracles and stuff. But every day sister is just an angry chick in power armor.

Butcher of Vraks
30-07-2010, 18:24
Sisters of Battle are more traditional religious fanatics. Most can be corrupted I think, but some are very hard to corrupt. These being the ones performing miracles and stuff. But every day sister is just an angry chick in power armor.

Have any been corrupted, though?

I have never seen a source of them being corrupted either. Mind you, being "mind controlled", or being forced to take drastic measures to try and stop the Heresy from happening (The Voice) don't count, IMO anyways.

Col. Tartleton
30-07-2010, 18:38
Its a gray area. Theres no real reason why they wouldn't have been. They're just soldiers, somewhere bridging the gap between Stormtroopers and Marines. I like to think they could be but I haven't seen in universe examples. While I think a living saint is incorruptible, and some sisters of battle as well, I don't think most of them would be. I think they would be relying on their strict discipline and fearless fanaticism. That would keep possessions to a minimum and make rebels easily removed.

Its like Tau and Chaos. Unlikely but known to happen. However Ethereals are immune for the same reason the Grey Knights are. They know their place. They are humble and selfless, and on top of that don't believe a word of it thanks to the power of reason. :cheese:

Goosey_J
30-07-2010, 19:10
They are the remains of emotionless killers broken down to the point where they don't feel. You can't defeat their tranquility. They're like Bodhisattvas. Chaos can't corrupt them because its not on their level. They don't actually care about anything. They can't be swayed. When a Daemon offers them immortality they laugh and say "All things must end." When a Daemon offers them all the pleasures in the world they laugh and say "Life is suffering." When a Daemon says it can make them undefeatable they smile and say "All things must end." When Tzeentch offers them power they say "Authority is earned not given." They are Buddhist. They know themselves to be more powerful then any Daemon. They know they can't be defeated, only killed. They know that being killed is not the end so they do not fear it. They embrace it. The only thing a Daemon can offer them is death, and that's all they'll offer the Daemon.

Marines are almost at this level, but they are still human enough to have doubts and stuff. That's why they can fall. Its harder to corrupt a marine because they're so honor and duty bound. But they can fall just like a regular person. Grey Knights are not people. They are Bodhisattvas. They are Order embodied. It is cold and sterile and unfeeling. I don't like the idea of them being human, it doesn't suit them. Marines should barely be recognized as human mentally. A Grey Knight should be a god among men.

I like this way of describing them.

Lord Lorne Walkier
30-07-2010, 20:12
1. Yes the Blood Ravens can an probubly will fall to chaos. When GW figures out Starcraft is a better game then DoW they might get desperate and try to hook people with a story about stopping the chapters slide...

2. The Grey Knights can Not fall for more then mental reasons. In addition to mental defenses they get anti deamon wards inplanted under every inch of their skin.
3. Gene-seed CAN turn a human into a psyker. It changes ones DNA. Mangus the Reds seed gave the Teran born powers before he was found. Just like Vulcans seed turns your skin black and Russ's will make your teeth grow long.
4. Orks can fall to chaos. In 3rd ed you could field Storm boyz of Khorn.
5. SoB can and have fallen but their faith makes them a HARD sell. It would take exposing them to pure warp from a rift to turn them. You cant just offer them power or revenge.

TheOverlord
31-07-2010, 06:39
On the note of Sororitas falling to Chaos, if you'll accept comics as part of the canon, there has been a series (I forget it's name) that shows a Slaanesh Sister of Battle. I believe she was the leader of that particular convent of sisters.

Kettu
31-07-2010, 07:24
In 2nd ed it was mentioned at only one sister had ever fallen to chaos.
A card game later expanded on her. Gave her a name (Forgot what it was) and which god (Slaanesh, of course :rolleyes:)

The comic you are thinking of is Daemonifuge in which we have an entire convent turning to chaos (Dark Prince again :rolleyes:)
Although, from what I understand the author later admitted he didn't really stick as close to canon as he should have.

Since then we have had half the BL books that mention sisters play with the fallen sister thing.

Frankly, that piece of canon should never have changed as it brought down part of the army along with it.

I am hoping that GW corrects this in their next codex (If there is one) and just retcons out all the Fallen Sisters plots that have gathered over the years.

Wyrmwood
31-07-2010, 15:40
To those that propose the argument/suggestion that 'Primarchs fell to Chaos, so can Grey Knights!' - remember, the Primarchs were taught that the Warp was a force to be used, but not controlled; they knew nothing of the great dangers posed by the conscious 'gods' and their servants - all except Magnus, but his hubris *as* a Primarch (in short) caused him to believe the warp could be controlled (I've not read 'A Thousand Sons', so I don't know if he knew of 'Chaos'). In contrast, the Grey Knights know enough and they know the dangers posed by Chaos, to prevent such corruption. Oh, as well as all of the anti-Chaos gadgets and tidbits they have.

TheOverlord
31-07-2010, 19:50
And if I recall my Grey Knights correctly, aren't Grey Knights trained to actually hurt daemons with their very presence? Every training they received psychically was done to be turned inwards, to graft an unbreakable psychic shield around their souls, not to mentioned all the hexagrammic wards imprinted onto their armor to prevent any sort of possession?

And all that on top of the Colonel's masterful interpretation of their psyche?