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ORKY ARD BOYZ
29-07-2010, 08:22
The Shadow in the Warp prevents astropathic communication, but with a giant 'shadow' around a world, would a Navigator be able to guide a ship through the Warp currents? Would he see a gigantic hole instead of where the warp would normally flow for example in the respective exit area for a world invaded by the Tyranids?

[SD] Bob Plisskin
29-07-2010, 08:25
If he's in a space ship he's embarked in a transport so not effected! :-D

Gingerwerewolf
29-07-2010, 08:36
Ive always seen the Shadow of the Warp as being a the Psychic Blank that is the Tyranic Fleet. Their Alien Psyche dampens the Warp around the area and absorbs any psychic messages / senses that pass's through it.

So the Currents would be more difficult to see IMO, but not impossible, as otherwise there would be no reinforcements ever to worlds attacked by the Nids

totgeboren
29-07-2010, 09:28
@[SD] Bob Plisskin: Pure Win! :D

As I understand the Shadow in the Warp, it works abit like if you try and send radio signals through heavy static. Some might get through, but most will be too messed up to make out.

When navigating, the navigator would probably just "see" a shorter distance in the warp, slowing him/her down. However, the range of the shadow is up for debate. I got the impression that it has got about enough range to cover a system at most. On the other hand, on the tabletop you need to get within close proximity of a Synapse creature to start getting severe effects.

So what I make of this is that the effect is really only severe when you get really close. Out in space, if there are no Hive Ships close by, a Navigator would probably see just fine. Maybe a bit like driving when there is heavy rain. Doable, but not optimal.

Hunger
29-07-2010, 11:54
During the advance of Leviathan the SITW blotted out the Astronomican and silenced psychic communication across a vast tract of space between the two prongs of the attack. A ship in this area would have no trouble translating into the Warp, but once there the Navigator will have a hard time doing his job.

I imagine the Shadow smothers the landscape of the Warp like fog smothers the landscape of the Earth, and I guess the sensation of travelling in the Shadow is similar to that of walking through a pathless forest you know well in heavy fog - you can find your way if you're careful, but you could easily become hopelessly lost until the fog clears.

On a smaller scale, the battlefield troops throw out a blanket that interferes with psychic activity, scrambling communication at a local level, however we know that its the Hive Ships that are responsible for smothering the system before they get there, because one of the first things to happen to a target system is the Shadow falling over it, as documented well in the previous Tyranid codex.

Lupe
29-07-2010, 20:12
@[SD] Bob Plisskin: Pure Win! :D

As I understand the Shadow in the Warp, it works abit like if you try and send radio signals through heavy static. Some might get through, but most will be too messed up to make out.


In even less technical terms, warp travel is like spitting against the wind, with SitW being a hurricane. You might hit what you were aiming for, if you're lucky, and the planets align, and Tzeentch is in a good mood. But odds are you're just going to end up with phlegm everywhere other than your target.

chromedog
02-08-2010, 21:09
I would liken it to conditions for sailing in the age of sail.

SitW would be like a fog surrounding them when they are becalmed. You can't see the astronomican beacon so have no reference point, and the 'tides' and currents that move you would also be gone. The impending feelings of foreboding and utter doom would be a good pointer that "no good will come of this" though.

Scalebug
02-08-2010, 21:51
I don't see the general shadow in the warp as a deliberate weapon* used by the Tyranids to actively kill enemy comunications, but merely the constant telepathic traffic between all organisms in the fleet;

"Huza! We is vat of bacteria breaking down captured materials into its consistents! Dinner is almost on. It's soup. Again."
"You Hormagaunts there, go sit in the Myethic Spore awaiting planet drop. And, no, you cannot land with the ship and have your empty pod drop by itself!"
"Lictor #1239585373811 here, just ate this guys brain, and this is what I found..."
"Derp! I'm a Narvhal! I'm dumb and weird for the sake of weird. I even spell my own name odd!"

Think trying to talk to someone in the other end of a room filled with people making these noises. That would be why astropathy doesn't come through clear, but I don't think Warp Travel in itself is affected, as in going around in ships in the area invaded by the Hive Fleets you are not going to have your ship ripped apart by the Warp.

You are still going to have a hard time because the Navigators are going to see all this telepathic data as a compact net of strands between the creatures in the real universe, and it is going to block their view of however indescribable way they usually visualize the warp and get their bearings.


* Then in combat, Hive Tyrants and others can draw upon this cacophony and use it, essentially weaponizing this constant drone of communications. But that is by being filtered through them, like any other psychic power, and not its primary use.

Hunger
02-08-2010, 23:42
"Lictor #1239585373811 here, just ate this guys brain, and this is what I found..."

"...[stream of battlefield data]...and three Leman Russes moving east in a wedge formation, looks like standard battle cannon armament. Oh and there was a hidden sniper team in the northernmost woods, but I took care of them."

Hivemind: Good work Lictor #1239585373811. How about you, Lictor #47586920278476?

Lictor #47586920278476: I JUST GOT BACK FROM THE MENSA HEADQUARTERS AND I'M ******* WIRED MAN! HOLY ****! SO MANY SHAPES AND NUMBERS! AAARGH! I THINK MY BRAIN'S GONNA EXPLODE!

cleansingfury
03-08-2010, 01:45
"...[stream of battlefield data]...and three Leman Russes moving east in a wedge formation, looks like standard battle cannon armament. Oh and there was a hidden sniper team in the northernmost woods, but I took care of them."

Hivemind: Good work Lictor #1239585373811. How about you, Lictor #47586920278476?

Lictor #47586920278476: I JUST GOT BACK FROM THE MENSA HEADQUARTERS AND I'M ******* WIRED MAN! HOLY ****! SO MANY SHAPES AND NUMBERS! AAARGH! I THINK MY BRAIN'S GONNA EXPLODE!

That just made my day!

Grubnar
04-08-2010, 18:33
I imagine it is like trying to sail across the pacific ocean with nothing to guide you but the sun and the stars. Difficult to do but far from impossible ... and then a very thick fog sets over everything!

Green-is-best
04-08-2010, 19:35
Carnifex #1234187236412891231341: "I found a cute little yellow space marine! JUST WHAT I ALWAYS WANTED! MY OWN LITTLE SPACE MARINE! I will name him George and I will hug him and pet him and squeeze him and pat him and pet him and rub him and caress him and...OH NO! GEORGE!"

Hunger
04-08-2010, 23:32
Carnifex #1234187236412891231341: "I found a cute little yellow space marine! JUST WHAT I ALWAYS WANTED! MY OWN LITTLE SPACE MARINE! I will name him George and I will hug him and pet him and squeeze him and pat him and pet him and rub him and caress him and...OH NO! GEORGE!"

The best laid plans of mice and carnifexes often come to naught. :D

Quetch
05-08-2010, 00:43
I was under the impression that the shadow in the warp was caused by the shear weight of trillions of minds in the warp, stopping astropathic communication by drowning it out in a sea of white noise.

I would have thought warp travel in such conditions would be impossible, for the same reasons as a ship canít translate to the warp inside the Jump Point, that the turbulence caused by a planet full of people would tear the ship apart. If a ship was inside an area affected by the SITW, the navigator would probably go blind.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
05-08-2010, 01:23
Didn't warp travel exist before navigators it was just slower. so if SITW just effects navigator functions warp travel is possible just slow.

DarthMcBob
05-08-2010, 03:03
"Derp! I'm a Narvhal! I'm dumb and weird for the sake of weird. I even spell my own name odd!"

Actually, I have come up with a theory on the reason for the existence of the Narvhal. You probably don't want to hear it, but I'm going to tell you anyway. :evilgrin:

Tyranids are intergalactic creatures. In order to feed, they must cross a tremendous void with paramount accuracy. Galaxies moved a lot in the eons it can take to cross the massive void. Warp travel is faster, but travel by the Narvhal is "infinitely more reliable". It ensures that they arrive on time, and on target, every time. This is vital when intergalactic distances are involved, as the Warp can be quite random even when dealing with galactic distances. If they were to take the Warp and miss, it could take thousands of years to correct the course and try again. Whatever the odds, such a gamble is highly inadvisable when it is imperative to get there and feed, particularly when a slower but far more accurate form of travel is available. Using the Narvhal allows the Hive Mind to plot out exactly how long it will take to get wherever they're going, and what resources it will need along the way. Knowing this, the use of the Narvhal suddenly makes a lot more sense, as it allows intergalactic journeys to be carefully and precisely planned by the Hive Mind. It ensures that they cannot miss where they are going, unlike the Warp. It allows the Hive Mind to coordinate fleets thousands of years in advance, because it always knows exactly where they will show up. That is why Narvhal travel is used.

As to the Shadow in the Warp, my theory as to why it is weaker on the tabletop than in the fluff (apart from gameplay balance of course), is that by the time the Tyranids have landed, the Shadow has already killed or driven insane with its presence all but the strongest of psykers. Thus, the ones that are left are the strongest, and suffer fewer effects.

TheShadowCow
05-08-2010, 19:02
Actually, I have come up with a theory on the reason for the existence of the Narvhal. You probably don't want to hear it, but I'm going to tell you anyway. :evilgrin:

Tyranids are intergalactic creatures. In order to feed, they must cross a tremendous void with paramount accuracy. Galaxies moved a lot in the eons it can take to cross the massive void. Warp travel is faster, but travel by the Narvhal is "infinitely more reliable". It ensures that they arrive on time, and on target, every time. This is vital when intergalactic distances are involved, as the Warp can be quite random even when dealing with galactic distances. If they were to take the Warp and miss, it could take thousands of years to correct the course and try again. Whatever the odds, such a gamble is highly inadvisable when it is imperative to get there and feed, particularly when a slower but far more accurate form of travel is available. Using the Narvhal allows the Hive Mind to plot out exactly how long it will take to get wherever they're going, and what resources it will need along the way. Knowing this, the use of the Narvhal suddenly makes a lot more sense, as it allows intergalactic journeys to be carefully and precisely planned by the Hive Mind. It ensures that they cannot miss where they are going, unlike the Warp. It allows the Hive Mind to coordinate fleets thousands of years in advance, because it always knows exactly where they will show up. That is why Narvhal travel is used.

As to the Shadow in the Warp, my theory as to why it is weaker on the tabletop than in the fluff (apart from gameplay balance of course), is that by the time the Tyranids have landed, the Shadow has already killed or driven insane with its presence all but the strongest of psykers. Thus, the ones that are left are the strongest, and suffer fewer effects.

Mmm, and in a vacuum (lolpun!) the Narvhal explanation makes perfect sense.

The main problems the fanbase has with it would seem to be the spelling and the overly 'bad science' explanation of how it works.

The first I can handwave away simply enough - it's the year 40,999 and words may have changed a little down the past 38,989 years. It does look a little out of place, but in-setting it's fine.

The second is waved away by pointing to power weapons, psychics, the Warp etc etc, but sadly we are much less willing to actually go with said handwave because GW decided to be a little too specific with the physics, which grinds the stones of people who are reasonably well read in current scientific theory. Of course, ten thousand years from now scientific theory might have evolved into who knows what and we might all be travelling the universe Narvhal-style, but for now it suffers from trying to use scientific theory whilst being at odds with said theory.