PDA

View Full Version : Knights Formation - Strategy Idea



Romulus68
29-07-2010, 16:18
All,

I thought i would share this tidbit for play testing and discussion.

Premise:
I have a Vampire Army loaded with Knights. I played 2 games against the High Elves in the previous weekend where I was soundly and utterly crushed in both games. My Black Knights failing me in about every way. I was running them in 2 blocks of 10 and I debated 4 blocks of 5 before the game. My army is based on a Brettonian Lord becoming a Vampire so it is VERY cavalry heavy. It is a Fluff army not a Tourney army. Either way, I felt it could be played better.

My Idea:
I had a small epiphany last night in relation to Knights or most cavalry for that matter. I would be curious what everyone thinks of it, plus hearing play test results.

When you are taking Knights in units of 5, run them 3 wide and 2 deep. My thinking is that you only lose 2 mount attacks in favor of some nice advantages.

This would work on about anything you are running as a group of 5. Dark Riders, Out riders, War Beasts, etc.

Keys to Success: 3 X 2
1. Its a simple premise as being 3 wide you significantly reduce the amount of return attacks for the loss of 2 mount attacks. When you align the Knights to your enemy, he will simply not be able strike back with as many models. Facing a Horde spear unit or a unit of High Elf Spears that can be a SIGNIFICANT number of return attacks you just negated for the cost of 2 mount attacks!!

2. The narrowed profile helps in a few other ways. Can charge thru tighter spots, hide behind cover better, reduces your profile to be charged, etc.

3. Works good for Fast Cavalry as it no longer reduces your shooting.

Drawbacks:
Multiple attack Knights will not benefit as much due to the "Supporting Attack" rule from the 2nd rank. IE..you would only get 1 supporting attack from the knights in the 2nd rank versus the Blood Knights 3 attacks for being in the 1st rank for example. So, in most circumstances Khorne Knights, Blood Knights, Dragon Princes, Coldone Cavarly, etc would most likely stay 5 wide.

Empire, Wood Elves, Brettonia, etc with their single attack profile Knights with toughness 3 will fair much better!!!

ScytheSwathe
29-07-2010, 17:07
Thats quite a good idea. There are 2 main drawbacks to bring your attention to though...
1. Cannons and bolt throwers; depending on the army you run, cavalry is often the best target for such war machines, and youre likely giving up 2x as many hits in this formation. Small, but now ive mentioned it, im sure youll start to notice it more.

2. Every true warhammer player knows that the mounts are more dangerous than the riders!


And on a side note. I dont feel that units of 10 are ideal for anything. Even archers are best taken in 12s in my opinion. The reason being that as ranks are calculated at the end of combat now, even one death will mean the removal of your rank bonus; on a flank that means reinstating the enemies rank bonus too; so that single wound could well cost you 5 combat res (1 wound, -1 opposing rank, +3 ranks). Therefore anyone with a say in the matter will make killing a flanker in units of 10 a matter of grreat importance. 12 becomes far more reliable.

Romulus68
29-07-2010, 17:12
Thats quite a good idea. There are 2 main drawbacks to bring your attention to though...
1. Cannons and bolt throwers; depending on the army you run, cavalry is often the best target for such war machines, and youre likely giving up 2x as many hits in this formation. Small, but now ive mentioned it, im sure youll start to notice it more.

2. Every true warhammer player knows that the mounts are more dangerous than the riders!


1. Crap! Forgot about those.

2. VERY good point!! :D

It will come down to your opponent and there war machines.

Do you run the 12 as 6x2 or 5x5x2?

Fritzallmighty
29-07-2010, 19:46
perhaps I am mistaken, but don't cavalry (Brettonian lance formation aside) have to rank up 5 wide?

Romulus68
29-07-2010, 19:54
perhaps I am mistaken, but don't cavalry (Brettonian lance formation aside) have to rank up 5 wide?


Hummmm......off to BRB

Jericho
29-07-2010, 21:21
They don't have to, but they don't get rank bonus unless they are 5+ wide. Horde is still 10+ which is ridiculous :p Personally I was a bit surprised that they didn't get 4/8 for rank/horde respectively, but I do understand them wanting to bring Infantry (Monstrous or otherwise) back to the forefront in 8th.

Anyway my initial reaction to the suggestion was less than supportive, as I play Chaos mostly these days :D Losing 1S5 and 1S4 attack from each supporting Knight is kind of a big deal. Double that if I take the Rage Banner :p

My Dogs of War on the other hand are more open to suggestions. T3 2+ save cavalry with 1A each and S3 mounts have much less to lose and it makes them a bit easier to use (assuming like you say there are little/no war machines staring at them).

On the bright side, an enfilade shot from a cannon/bolt thrower isn't as big of a deal if you are only 3-wide :)

willowdark
29-07-2010, 21:50
Actually, CoKs are only 1 attack a piece so don't lose anything in this formation. But their mounts are st4 and have hatred so from that point of view they're losing a lot.

Mandragola
29-07-2010, 22:04
This seems like a really good suggestion. Ok, sometimes the other guy will have bolt throwers and it will be less good, but not everyone will have them. You don't have to do this if you don't want to. The rest of the time you get a unit that can manouevre more easily and that takes less attacks back.

It seems like a really good way to run fast missile cavalry as well by the way.

SevenSins
29-07-2010, 22:13
perhaps I am mistaken, but don't cavalry (Brettonian lance formation aside) have to rank up 5 wide?

I hope not, I was planning on running my cold one knights in a 3x2 formation, to lend support kills to my spear blocks (flank if possible, front if not),

With initiative changes and now that hatred doesn't apply to the cold ones I think it is even more viable

also great for fast cav, I agree

Zaustus
30-07-2010, 06:08
You aren't required to form up in any specific formation, ever. It's just that you only get rank bonus if you're 5-wide. With a unit of 5 cavalry, that's obviously irrelevant anyway.

It's an interesting idea! I play Chaos so it's not good for my Knights, but if I start using Marauder Horsemen again I may have to give this idea a try.

Romulus68
30-07-2010, 13:25
Post your results for trying this after you have a game. I'm curious to see if it helps or made a difference.

PS..Don't tell anyone about this that may be playing in Ardboyz! In hindsight it could be used against me! lol

Von Wibble
30-07-2010, 13:43
I think the bonus of this formation is largely irrelavent though.

Cavalry have large bases. Even if formed 3 wide against a unit 5 wide (which most units still are) you face the full attacks from the unit, and you only face 2 less return attacks when the enemy is 6 wide. And if you are using your cavalry to engage the flank (as 5 man units really should), how often are you really likely to face units even this wide?

Basically this formation only seems to be of benefit if you expect to face a lot of large units.

SevenSins
30-07-2010, 13:52
they also take less space, so easier to deploy as "detachments" but all this is conjencture on my part (until i get some 8th under my belt)

the main use would be against large units I agree...

Romulus68
30-07-2010, 14:05
they also take less space, so easier to deploy as "detachments" but all this is conjencture on my part (until i get some 8th under my belt)

the main use would be against large units I agree...


I think the bonus of this formation is largely irrelavent though.

Cavalry have large bases. Even if formed 3 wide against a unit 5 wide (which most units still are) you face the full attacks from the unit, and you only face 2 less return attacks when the enemy is 6 wide. And if you are using your cavalry to engage the flank (as 5 man units really should), how often are you really likely to face units even this wide?

Basically this formation only seems to be of benefit if you expect to face a lot of large units.

Our game groups are fielding larger and larger infantry blocks. That is what I had in mind. IE...facing large blocks.

Malorian
30-07-2010, 14:09
It's an interesting idea, and although I think it's situational this is certainly a trick people should keep in mind.

Commissar Vaughn
30-07-2010, 14:48
Hmmm....I shall try this....

shartmatau
30-07-2010, 14:58
nice idea, for all of the 'weaker' cavalry units this could be useful. I'll try this out with wild riders. Also remember that you can do combat reforms and the fast reform with a muso. Could be useful for non-fast cav to get small when useful and get wide when needed.

Sandals
30-07-2010, 15:37
i think there are calls for all sorts of weirder set ups like this with supporting units. it's a completely new game, so anything is worth trying once!

The most important thing to remember is that once you deploy like this there's no rule saying you have to stay that way. if you find you need the extra attacks, or are facing something you're not fussed about hitting you back, you can always reform to give you the 5 frontage again.

I play ogres at the moment, so cavalry will have to wait for me to try :) but i am thinking of trying out a unit of 2 maneaters formed up in ranks, so 1 behind the other. mcuh less frontage so a max of 4 models hitting back and still the same amount (almost) of damage going out. I'll post back once i've tried it.

Romulus68
30-07-2010, 16:07
i
I play ogres at the moment, so cavalry will have to wait for me to try :) but i am thinking of trying out a unit of 2 maneaters formed up in ranks, so 1 behind the other. mcuh less frontage so a max of 4 models hitting back and still the same amount (almost) of damage going out. I'll post back once i've tried it.

Huummm.....same principle with monster based Stuff.

2-5 Ogres.....run them 2:1, 2:2, 3:2
You lose a one to three stomp attacks, but versus wide frontage units you reduce strikes back against your Ogres.

Zaustus
31-07-2010, 03:15
This tactic makes units of 6 pretty good too, since you get an extra attack with the same frontage. It also looks better than a unit of 5 in 3-wide formation. :p

And yeah, monstrous infantry are pretty much a no-brainer to use 3-wide, but 2-wide is actually quite good for small units. Again, that makes units of 4 pretty nice, small frontage and saves points over taking 6 models 3-wide.