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Grunge
31-07-2010, 21:36
Is Lion El'johnson really alive? Where is that stated in any canon work? All I see around are hints that state that the Lion Sword and something even more important are stored under the Rock, but no actual fact that its Lion Himself.


Other thing that has come to my mind recently is what would happen if he really is asleep and eventually wakes up? Would the Dark Angels turn traitor for good? Would the Space Wolves wage war on them? How would the relation Astartes/Primarch and Primarch/Emperor really be?

I reckon a regular DA Tactical Marine would be as loyal to his primarch as the next Ultramarine, but what about the Deathwing members?



Also, besides the army book, where can I find more information on any successor chapter of the Dark Angels? Especially the Consecrators and the Guardians of the Covenant? Preferably short stories or that kind of stuff.

narrativium
31-07-2010, 21:48
Lion El'Jonson's current status was mentioned in the second edition Codex:Angels of Death.

NashTrickster
31-07-2010, 22:42
^What he said...

I'll just add that it wasn't merely "hinted" but stated flat out, in a God's PoV manner, that the Lion slept at the core of the Rock.

massey
31-07-2010, 23:58
Is Lion El'johnson really alive? Where is that stated in any canon work? All I see around are hints that state that the Lion Sword and something even more important are stored under the Rock, but no actual fact that its Lion Himself.

The 2nd edition Angels of Death codex states that he's sleeping in a hidden chamber in the Rock.



Other thing that has come to my mind recently is what would happen if he really is asleep and eventually wakes up? Would the Dark Angels turn traitor for good? Would the Space Wolves wage war on them? How would the relation Astartes/Primarch and Primarch/Emperor really be?

1) He's not going to wake up.
2) Why would they turn traitor? Lion El'Jonson is, and always has been, a loyalist.
3) Why would the Space Wolves attack?
4) Well, the relationship between marine and Primarch would be "oh, wow, you're the legendary Primarch..." Whereas the relationship between Primarch and Emperor would be "Yup. You're still dead."


I reckon a regular DA Tactical Marine would be as loyal to his primarch as the next Ultramarine, but what about the Deathwing members?

They'd be even more loyal. I think you need to go back and read the Dark Angels background, and not listen to crackpots on the internet.


Also, besides the army book, where can I find more information on any successor chapter of the Dark Angels? Especially the Consecrators and the Guardians of the Covenant? Preferably short stories or that kind of stuff.

Pretty much nowhere.

Rat Catcher
01-08-2010, 02:59
I think you need to go back and read the Dark Angels background, and not listen to crackpots on the internet.

I agree with this one-hundred percent.

I don't want to offend the original poster, I really don't.. but half of these questions could of been answered without even asking, if you had done even the littlest bit of research into the army that you use a forum avatar of.

Lexicanum isn't the most reliable source, but the Dark Angel entry seems pretty solid after looking through it. Check it out. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Angels)

madprophet
01-08-2010, 03:12
so, besides the army book, where can I find more information on any successor chapter of the Dark Angels? Especially the Consecrators and the Guardians of the Covenant? Preferably short stories or that kind of stuff.

WD 327(UK) had a little on them, The Guardians of the Covenant are a successor chapter of the Dark Angels, of an unknown founding. Guardians of the Covenant are renowned for their deeds during the Lelith incursion. The Guardians of the Covenant are active in the outer reaches of Segmentum Pacificus in general and the Halo Stars of this segmentum in particular.

Their armour is silver with black areas, and their chapter symbol is two crossed swords. Their imagery is distinctly gothic, their vehicles being covered in illuminated manuscripts, such as the Codex Astartes and the Requiem Angelis.

Their lifestyle and doctrines are very monastic, devoting equal time to study and scholarly arts as to battle training.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Guardians_of_the_Covenant for more

There is nothing on the Consecrators outside of what was in the 4th ed. codex.

What there is can be found at http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Consecrators

Grunge
01-08-2010, 15:04
1) He's not going to wake up. Says who? You?
2) Why would they turn traitor? Lion El'Jonson is, and always has been, a loyalist. Says who? You? Cause pretty much all canon fluff is actually not sure.
3) Why would the Space Wolves attack? Rabid dogs who pretty much hate Lion and think he is a traitor.
4) Well, the relationship between marine and Primarch would be "oh, wow, you're the legendary Primarch..." Whereas the relationship between Primarch and Emperor would be "Yup. You're still dead."



They'd be even more loyal. I think you need to go back and read the Dark Angels background, and not listen to crackpots on the internet.


Trying not to be rude, I think you actually need to go back and read all the fluff besides the Codex.


I agree with this one-hundred percent.

I don't want to offend the original poster, I really don't.. but half of these questions could of been answered without even asking, if you had done even the littlest bit of research into the army that you use a forum avatar of.

Lexicanum isn't the most reliable source, but the Dark Angel entry seems pretty solid after looking through it. Check it out. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Angels)

Trying not to be rude again, have you read anything else besides the codex also? Even Lexicanum, for all I care. But I'll back my questions up more extensively:

The Primarch waking up is purely speculation on what could happen. We all know the 40k background is pretty much stagnant or goes in circles, so no change of that happening anytime soon. With that part cleared up, I'll clear up the second most obvious fact that was implicit on my original post, and that may have confused many.

Here (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Angels-of-Darkness.html). Don't bother to read further if you haven't read that.

In that book, lots of thinks get hinted, none gets answered fully. What we do get from it is that the Old Legion (the original Dark Angel marines serving prior to the comeback of the Primarch during the Great Crusade) pretty much didn't care for Lion El'Jonson. They served under him and obeyed him as a military superior but had few connections to him apart from that, because they pretty much served under the Emperor himself until then. Their true loyalty was with the Emperor, above everything else, even the Primarch, unlike many other Legions at the time and the ones that came to be since then.

Then there's the matter of the defense of Terra, to wich the Dark Angels basically got there too late. What's hinted here is that it was on purpose, with Lion beeing one of the best strategists and commanders it would be really hard for him to miscalculate actions and get to Terra too late to defend it. It's directly stated by a member of the Old Legion that Lion delayed their return in order to see who won the battle between the Emperor and Horus. From here, one can only guess further.

Please note I am basing all assumptions (or possibilities for that matter) on oficial fluff from various sources, mostly Black Library books such as the whole Horus Heresy, the DA short stories and many others where they are mentioned, Angels of Darkness and so on. Would help if you have read them all in addition to the Codex.

I haven't read the Codex: Angels of Death though, if that was the Codex you were mentioning. But if it was, you should know better than me the question with the Space Wolves.

narrativium
01-08-2010, 17:21
Where are you getting the idea that any of the Space Wolves thought the Dark Angels weren't loyalists?

There was a feud between the primarchs, which is honoured by their descendant chapters with a rematch whenever they meet, but the feud was never about siding with Horus or Chaos.

Sinisterfence
01-08-2010, 17:35
it's always been hinted, if not outright stated (which it was in Angels of Death as has been said) that the Lion is in the Rock, The Lion Sword is not, Cypher has what's left of it. Considering that the Deathwing are among the few members of the chapter that know about the Fallen, I'm pretty sure their loyalty is 150% with the Primarch. It's been HINTED that he was on the fence, but he can't be blamed for being late, the lines of communication were cut so they didn't find out until the seige was already underway.. if a friend called me at 2AM saying they desperately need a lift, it's not out of malice that it may take me an hour to get there, it's the suprise and my lack of an extremely effective teleportation device!

EDIT:

P14, Codex: Angels of Death.
The Final Secret
...Buried even deeper within the Rock, is the final, greatest secret of the chapter. Only one person in the entire universe knows the truth- The Emperor himself. For hidden inside a secluded, unreachable chamber at the heart of what was once the planet Caliban, Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium against it's enemies.

massey
01-08-2010, 17:53
Trying not to be rude, I think you actually need to go back and read all the fluff besides the Codex.

Again, you need to read everything before you start calling people out.


Trying not to be rude again, have you read anything else besides the codex also? Even Lexicanum, for all I care. But I'll back my questions up more extensively:

Lexicanium is crap. But yes, I've read the codex. I've read every version of it. And I've read more than that, as well.


The Primarch waking up is purely speculation on what could happen. We all know the 40k background is pretty much stagnant or goes in circles, so no change of that happening anytime soon. With that part cleared up, I'll clear up the second most obvious fact that was implicit on my original post, and that may have confused many.

Here (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Angels-of-Darkness.html). Don't bother to read further if you haven't read that.

Oh, I see. Another person who just read Angels of Darkness and thinks it's gospel truth.


In that book, lots of thinks get hinted, none gets answered fully. What we do get from it is that the Old Legion (the original Dark Angel marines serving prior to the comeback of the Primarch during the Great Crusade) pretty much didn't care for Lion El'Jonson. They served under him and obeyed him as a military superior but had few connections to him apart from that, because they pretty much served under the Emperor himself until then. Their true loyalty was with the Emperor, above everything else, even the Primarch, unlike many other Legions at the time and the ones that came to be since then.

Then there's the matter of the defense of Terra, to wich the Dark Angels basically got there too late. What's hinted here is that it was on purpose, with Lion beeing one of the best strategists and commanders it would be really hard for him to miscalculate actions and get to Terra too late to defend it. It's directly stated by a member of the Old Legion that Lion delayed their return in order to see who won the battle between the Emperor and Horus. From here, one can only guess further.

Please note I am basing all assumptions (or possibilities for that matter) on oficial fluff from various sources, mostly Black Library books such as the whole Horus Heresy, the DA short stories and many others where they are mentioned, Angels of Darkness and so on. Would help if you have read them all in addition to the Codex.

I haven't read the Codex: Angels of Death though, if that was the Codex you were mentioning. But if it was, you should know better than me the question with the Space Wolves.

Step 1: Go read Codex: Angels of Death. You'll see the relationship between the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels.
Step 2: Go read Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels. You'll see that things in the Heresy didn't quite play out as Astelan describes.
Step 3: Find some of the old Index Astartes articles if you can. Specifically, find the articles that describe how the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves travelled back to Terra together. They talk about how the Dark Angels were delayed by the SW, because Russ kept wanting to pee on every tree and sniff every fire hydrant.

Here's something to remember when reading Angels of Darkness (which I suggest you reread, after you've read everything else, to get proper perspective):


Astelan is a traitor. He is giving his explanation for why he turned. Remember that the planet he conquers when the Dark Angels find him, is in ruins and has been subjected to a series of political purges in which over half the population was killed, by Astelan. He tries to justify it, but remember what he did. Also remember that while he's out declaring the Lion to be a traitor, he readily admits that he has very little contact with anyone outside of Caliban, and is operating on next to no information. Now he's supposed to be the authority on the mind of the most secretive Primarch?

Astelan talks about how the Lion didn't trust the Terran marines, how he had Calibanite units tailing them. Yet, Descent of Angels clearly shows that the units sent back to Caliban were nearly exclusively from Caliban. Who were the marines who the Lion took off with to go conquering alien worlds? They were Terran.

You just can't trust Astelan. Because he lies.

Grunge
01-08-2010, 18:19
If the Deathwing are fully aware of what happened, and the "what happened" is open for speculation to both sides, then they may have some issues against the Primarch, either they think he was "delayed" or "delaying".

Thats pushing the bar a lot, I agree, as common sense drives me to think that the Deathwing have very few members of the original Old Legion, hence having a strong bond to the Primarch and all things Caliban.

On the Space Wolf issue, I should quote a line from one of the stories in Legends of the Space Marines, though i dont have the book with me, in wich an old Space Wolf is telling his audience if they want to hear stories about the "many treacheries of the Dark Angels" or various other themes. Although not stating that they think they are Heretics, they know of more than the K.O. of Russ.

I gotta get hold of the book.


EDIT: posting at the same time as the above poster, so:

I was not saying that whatever Astelan stated or hinted in Angels of Darkness was the exact truth. Astelan stated his vision of the events, corrupted or not by whatever was in is soul, chaos or otherwise. However, what was stated or hinted in there may or may not be true. It is not confirmed nor denied anywhere else.

I don't have Angels or Darkness, I got an incomplete PDF only. Probably has more info on the SW/DA relations than I know of, aswell as anything else.


Still, the core of the question is, I'm interpreting things in one of the ways possible, some farfetched, some not so much. You can disagree as much as you like but you can't say I'm wrong or far from the truth because it is not written anywhere.

Unless you prove me otherwise.


Also, keep this in mind: Astelan may have lied. Or maybe he hasn't lied.

Arathan
08-08-2010, 16:39
stories about the "many treacheries of the Dark Angels" or various other themes. Although not stating that they think they are Heretics, they know of more than the K.O. of Russ.

I imagine the "many treacheries" is more along the lines of the original conflict where Johnson "stole" Russ' kill by being sneaky and taking advantage of the Wolves' frontal assault rather than actually being traitors.
The relation between the chapters is a rivalry and some mutual dislike, not actual conflict.

Could you imagine the Space Wolves Settling for a ritual duel between representatives for each chapter when they meet if they thought the Dark Angels had betrayed the emperor? Why would that change if Johnson came back?

Vikingkingq
08-08-2010, 17:30
Angels of Darkness is supposed to be your classic "unreliable narrator" story, since Astelan has no motive to actually tell his hated "brother" (who's been hideously torturing him the whole time) the truth, and every motive to lie and deceive.

The proof probably lies somewhere in-between - Lion was ambitious, and we saw that he gave a whole bunch of siege weapons (that he boosted from Horus' folks) to Perturabo (thinking that Perturabo was loyal) to purchase votes towards becoming the new Warmaster. Given that, it doesn't seem likely that he was waiting to see who won - after all, that would have meant potentially bowing the knee to someone he wanted to replace - but rather that he may well have been trying to time things in order to maximize his share of the glory; i.e, wait until Horus' troops were worn down enough to make his intervention the decisive factor.

Keep in mind that the "too late" had everything to do with events completely outside the control of both El'Johnson and Russ - their arrival tipped the strategic scales completely, but the Emperor chose to accept Horus' gambit and teleport on board his barge. Had the Emperor waited (which btw would have been a very interesting alternate history of the Heresy), Lion, Russ, and Guilliman would have been the deliverers of Terra. This throws further doubt on the "waiting to see who won" argument - when the Dark Angels arrived, the siege of Terra was still going on and had in fact turned the tide with their intervention.

DarthMcBob
08-08-2010, 17:40
Read Descent of Angels. In it, you'll note that the Lion and his Legion loyally fight for the Emperor against Horus' forces, which are attempting to capture vital siege engines. They sustain massive casualties doing so. This is hardly the act of someone who is a traitor or undecided.

Horus only gets the engines through the trickery and treachery of Perturabo, after he convinces the Lion (who thinks that he is still loyal) to hand them over in return for support for the Lion's bid to replace Horus as Warmaster after it's all over.

The Lion was not, and has never been a traitor.

Merus
08-08-2010, 20:48
Read Descent of Angels. In it, you'll note that the Lion and his Legion loyally fight for the Emperor against Horus' forces, which are attempting to capture vital siege engines. They sustain massive casualties doing so. This is hardly the act of someone who is a traitor or undecided.

Horus only gets the engines through the trickery and treachery of Perturabo, after he convinces the Lion (who thinks that he is still loyal) to hand them over in return for support for the Lion's bid to replace Horus as Warmaster after it's all over.

The Lion was not, and has never been a traitor.

I'm relieved that somebody here has actually read the most recent novels for the Dark Angels, as Grunge clearly hasn't.

You're living in older editions where due to lack of information you could argue that the Lion was late for dubious reasons, mainly because we didn't know where he was or what he was doing.

With them recently delving deeper into the setting of the Heresy, we know the Lion took first-blood against the traitors and attempted the thwart Horus. We also now know that the Lion and Russ fought together on their return to Terra to save the Emperor.

There is no "ifs", "ands" or "buts" about where or what the Lion was doing. He is in no way a traitor, nor has he ever been.

I'd suggest reading the most recent releases of Dark Angels fluff before correcting other people.

Grunge
08-08-2010, 22:17
Yeah, like buying off Perturabo's vote is a normal thing to do.

I never said Lion was a traitor or has ever been, I was questioning opinions on a "could he ever be" basis. I wasn't correcting anything or anyone, my OP only has questions on it!


Some of you really should get a grip of your nerd rage when someone else has a different opinion from you.


Also, having my Legends of the Space Marines book handy, I should correct myself and state that the Space Wolf refers to the "treacheries" as "the many crimes of the Dark Angels".


EDIT: Thanks to Sinisterfence for the Angels of Darkness quote!

Col. Tartleton
08-08-2010, 22:31
The Lion was a pragmatist. He wasn't evil. He knew Horus was going to die. He knew he one of a few Primarchs most likely to get command of the Legions when this was over. If your ally desperately wants something and is willing to rub your back for it, its not evil to lend him a pencil.

The "many crimes of the Dark Angels" are as many in number as the "Drunken screw ups of the Space Wolves." The Feud goes both ways. Russ and Johson were comrades in arms who being brothers constantly fought for the respect of the Emperor. At several points they drew arms against each other because they're both hot headed warriors. No one died, they both got hurt. Their legions fight honor duels as a ritual for Legionary Pride. Its a sports rivalry. Yankees and Red Sox. The greatest rivalry ever? Probably. But no one's a heretic.

TheMav80
08-08-2010, 23:29
I'd say Yankee fans are pretty much all heretics. :angel:

Merus
08-08-2010, 23:31
Yeah, like buying off Perturabo's vote is a normal thing to do.

It means that he's ambitious; does that make him a fiend now?


I wasn't correcting anything or anyone, my OP only has questions on it!

Oh, is that a fact?


Trying not to be rude, I think you actually need to go back and read all the fluff besides the Codex.

Trying not to be rude again, have you read anything else besides the codex also? Even Lexicanum, for all I care.

Seems an awful lot like you're talking down to these two. Perhaps you're unable to realize when you're being snide.


Some of you really should get a grip of your nerd rage when someone else has a different opinion from you.

Perhaps you should try that idea out first. Just because your theory was shot-down by several posters here doesn't mean you need to resort to ad-hominem comments.


Also, having my Legends of the Space Marines book handy, I should correct myself and state that the Space Wolf refers to the "treacheries" as "the many crimes of the Dark Angels".

The Dark Angels and Space Wolves make constant comments like this about one-another, it means little. Regardless of the honor duels and constant smack talk the two Legions are not enemies; nor do the Space Wolves believe the Dark Angels to be heretics.

The Dark Angels have a terrible secret. It's hinted at being "suspected" by some of the High Lords of Terra and a select few Inquisitors, but nobody can prove anything. People don't know about their past or else it wouldn't be a "terrible secret".

Garven Dreis
09-08-2010, 00:40
Yeah, like buying off Perturabo's vote is a normal thing to do.

I never said Lion was a traitor or has ever been, I was questioning opinions on a "could he ever be" basis. I wasn't correcting anything or anyone, my OP only has questions on it!


Some of you really should get a grip of your nerd rage when someone else has a different opinion from you.


Also, having my Legends of the Space Marines book handy, I should correct myself and state that the Space Wolf refers to the "treacheries" as "the many crimes of the Dark Angels".


EDIT: Thanks to Sinisterfence for the Angels of Darkness quote!

Why did you ask the questions in the first place when you weren't willing to listen to the responses?

Grunge
09-08-2010, 00:41
Perhaps you should try that idea out first. Just because your theory was shot-down by several posters here doesn't mean you need to resort to ad-hominem comments.

Perhaps shooting down someone's opinions because they are not their own is somewhat rude also? As is beeing snide, like several posters here? This was meant for discussion on the matters I stated in my first post, not to try and prove that someone is actually wrong. As that is pretty much impossible regarding these topics, by the way.


I must ask one more question: in Sons of Fenris (if i'm not mistaking the SW novel title) do the Space Wolves ever get to know that the DA are on that planet searching for a Fallen? Do they ever get to suspect anything on that matter?

Merus
09-08-2010, 00:50
Perhaps shooting down someone's opinions because they are not their own is somewhat rude also?

People shot your theory down because there is proof that it's incorrect; not because they're malicious.


I must ask one more question: in Sons of Fenris (if i'm not mistaking the SW novel title) do the Space Wolves ever get to know that the DA are on that planet searching for a Fallen? Do they ever get to suspect anything on that matter?

The chapter as a whole has no idea why they were there; Ragnar is the only one who gets even close to the truth and they do not tell him the full story either. He lets them take the Fallen because he trusts them and believes they are noble warriors.

Grunge
09-08-2010, 00:54
People shot your theory down because there is proof that it's incorrect; not because they're malicious.

What proof? Incorrect about what?


Does Ragnar get to see the Fallen? Is there any description of the armor or iconography?

I should really get ahold of that novel now. Haven't realised until now how much information it carried about the Dark Angels. :(

Merus
09-08-2010, 00:58
What proof? Incorrect about what?

... Is Lion El'johnson really alive? Where is that stated in any canon work? All I see around are hints that state that the Lion Sword and something even more important are stored under the Rock, but no actual fact that its Lion Himself.

Other thing that has come to my mind recently is what would happen if he really is asleep and eventually wakes up? Would the Dark Angels turn traitor for good? Would the Space Wolves wage war on them? How would the relation Astartes/Primarch and Primarch/Emperor really be? ...

The Lion is asleep in the Rock, if he wakes the Chapter would be fine as they revere him and the Space Wolves would do nothing. Was that clear enough?


Does Ragnar get to see the Fallen? Is there any description of the armor or iconography?

I should really get ahold of that novel now. Haven't realised until now how much information it carried about the Dark Angels. :(

The Fallen is disguised as a normal man. Ragnar and the Space Wolves believe he is a rogue guardsman. He wears no armor; nor is he the size of a Marine.

All they know is that he obviously has history with the Dark Angels.

Grunge
09-08-2010, 01:10
The Lion is asleep in the Rock, if he wakes the Chapter would be fine as they revere him and the Space Wolves would do nothing. Was that clear enough?

Seems to be for you. It's not how I see it though (except the Lion's whereabouts, that was just a direct question and I got a direct answer to that, wich I already thank'd for).

Is that ok with you?

Can I keep my opinion that the Lion was a bit ambiguous on many ocasions? That the whole Horus Heresy episode can be read in many ways? Because if you're just going to stand around and correct me based on you own opinions (wich are worth as much as mine) it's not really helpful to the whole discussion, is it?

massey
09-08-2010, 01:32
Grunge, however much you disagree with us, here's the one thing that you can take to the bank. The Dark Angels are good at keeping their secrets. Nobody knows exactly what happened during the Heresy. Plus, it was ten thousand years ago, so if most people suspect the Dark Angels are hiding something, they don't suspect that.

Why don't people like them? Because the Dark Angels are basically jerks to everybody. They're secretive, not just of what happened during the Heresy, but of everything. Joe Blow Dark Angel could get up to go use the can, but when you ask him what he's doing, he won't give you a straight answer. They show up on a planet because they want to help kill orks, with no Fallen within a thousand light years, but do they return your hails? Nope. They show up, do what they want, then leave. An Inquisitor tries to board one of the Dark Angels' ships, and sends a standard electronic hail to ask for permission to board. The Dark Angels ignore it completely. Why? Not because they are hiding something, but because that's the way they are. Even guys who don't know about the Fallen are secretive. Space Wolves pee on the rug, Ultramarines are bossy, Dark Angels are antisocial. It's in their nature.

So while some people may suspect that the chapter is up to something, and the High Lords of Terra don't exactly want a ton of DA successor chapters running around (they seem to be just a little too close to each other), nobody has any real concept of what the secret is.

What it comes down to is, nobody is going to attack the Dark Angels. Even if the Space Wolves think they're a bunch of glory-stealing stuck-up a-holes, they still have a grudging respect for them. Because no one, especially the Space Wolves, ever thought the Dark Angels were incompetent. By all appearances, they are loyal servants of the Emperor. *********, but loyal *********. You don't invite them to parties because they're grouches and they sit around and glare at everyone all day.

This is the difference between a Space Wolf, a Blood Angel, an Ultramarine, and a Dark Angel.

Space Wolves are somewhere between here:
http://nerdarama.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/ogre.jpg
and here:
http://screencrave.frsucrave.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/john-belushi-15-11-09-kc.jpg

Blood Angels:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_89JKhHMV8fs/Sm2wlLvQYWI/AAAAAAAAASg/iONolmsasUA/s400/mathiaslauridsengucci.jpg

Ultramarines:
http://www.wasteoftechnology.com/images/motw/tedmcginley/stan.jpg

Dark Angels:
http://psa.blastmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/dick-cheney-angry.jpg

Now perhaps you see why the Dark Angels aren't really regarded as a "friendly" chapter. They're the most openly hostile to other people. Ten thousand years of that sort of behavior and people will basically accept the idea that you and your buddies are just jerks.

Garven Dreis
09-08-2010, 01:35
Seems to be for you. It's not how I see it though (except the Lion's whereabouts, that was just a direct question and I got a direct answer to that, wich I already thank'd for).

Is that ok with you?

Can I keep my opinion that the Lion was a bit ambiguous on many ocasions? That the whole Horus Heresy episode can be read in many ways? Because if you're just going to stand around and correct me based on you own opinions (wich are worth as much as mine) it's not really helpful to the whole discussion, is it?


Its your choice if you'd like to disregard the fluff, but you cant discuss something if your just going to stand around and correct everyone based on your own opinions (wich [sic] are worth as much as mine) it's really not helpful to the whole discussion, is it?

Is that ok with you?

Son of Sanguinius
09-08-2010, 03:05
Now perhaps you see why the Dark Angels aren't really regarded as a "friendly" chapter. They're the most openly hostile to other people. Ten thousand years of that sort of behavior and people will basically accept the idea that you and your buddies are just jerks.

Jerks no doubt, but jerks who are really good at killing things. That would tend to make you want to put up with their crap.

Awesome visual references, massey.

And no need to take these things personal, guys. We're all assured in our positions and perspectives of this fictional universe, and just because someone repeatedly disagrees doesn't mean its a vendetta. ;)

Merus
09-08-2010, 03:12
And no need to take these things personal, guys. We're all assured in our positions and perspectives of this fictional universe, and just because someone repeatedly disagrees doesn't mean its a vendetta. ;)

I have no problem discussing fluff, or hearing the ideas / opinions of others, or I wouldn't be on this website.

I just get a little confused when somebody denies fluff sources.

"Hey guys.. what if the golden throne is really red?"
"We have pictures that show otherwise and it's the golden throne."
"Yeah, I get that.. but what if it's red?"
"It's not red."
"I understand that.. but what if it's red?"
/headasplode!

Son of Sanguinius
09-08-2010, 03:22
I have no problem discussing fluff, or hearing the ideas / opinions of others, or I wouldn't be on this website.

I just get a little confused when somebody denies fluff sources.

"Hey guys.. what if the golden throne is really red?"
"We have pictures that show otherwise and it's the golden throne."
"Yeah, I get that.. but what if it's red?"
"It's not red."
"I understand that.. but what if it's red?"
/headasplode!

I know your pain.

Don't tie yourself to fluff sources too quickly, however. With as often as GW contradicts its own published writing, Grunge may well end up having the more accurate perspective.

Talos402000
09-08-2010, 03:22
"Hey guys.. what if the golden throne is really red?"
"We have pictures that show otherwise and it's the golden throne."
"Yeah, I get that.. but what if it's red?"
"It's not red."
"I understand that.. but what if it's red?"
/headasplode!

*chuckle* Very nice.:D

massey
09-08-2010, 04:19
Jerks no doubt, but jerks who are really good at killing things. That would tend to make you want to put up with their crap.

Yup. In addition to Dick Cheney, they've also got a Clint Eastwood vibe going. They're going to show up, scowl at everyone, then shoot the bad guy. They're gonna kill the bad guy so dead that everyone in town is thinking these guys are more dangerous than the bad guy ever was... Then they'll leave without saying a word.

Truthfully, in most books, Dark Angels haven't been shown to be that bad. I exaggerate a bit. Mostly they're just kind of generally anti-social. Now, when they're having a bad day, yes, they're jerks. But when they're in a good mood, they're that brooding type. Like they kinda want to crack a grin and laugh with everyone else, but the most they can manage is a Batman-style smirk. "Rubber bullets. Honest."


Awesome visual references, massey.


Thanks. :) A picture is worth a thousand words.

Griffindale
09-08-2010, 04:31
Massey I'm sigging something about the Dark Angels and Dick Cheney. Thats too damned funny.

Eternus
09-08-2010, 11:19
Just read this whole thread, everything up to here - crikey chaps!

Are the Dark Angels and their Primarch loyal? Ask them and see how much your face hurts afterwards. ;)

Dark Angels - 1st, greatest, accept no imitations.

Grunge
09-08-2010, 14:02
I have no problem discussing fluff, or hearing the ideas / opinions of others, or I wouldn't be on this website.

I just get a little confused when somebody denies fluff sources.

"Hey guys.. what if the golden throne is really red?"
"We have pictures that show otherwise and it's the golden throne."
"Yeah, I get that.. but what if it's red?"
"It's not red."
"I understand that.. but what if it's red?"
/headasplode!

Wich fluff sources have I denied?

Because you're failing to show me that picture of the Golden Throne not beeing red, if you know what I mean.



It's hinted everywhere that the Dark Angels have their ways and that sometimes they may not be the most correct ones. The Lion is weird and goes with ways not too common for a loyal marine, not to mention Primarch. As I see it, he could be as heretic as Horus was (wich is hard to think of) or as loyal as Dorn, or even as something in the line with the Soul Drinkers, wich is more in the lines of where I place the whole Dark Angels ambiguity. They have their own agenda, that's for sure. How heretic that is, is up to each of us.

I keep failing to see where I corrected anyone else, because I am here discussing possibilities. I never once tried to tell someone that they were wrong or that their view was not the truth, because there is no possible way to know that, there is no possible picture of a red Golden Throne on this subject! Please do point me to where I corrected or told anyone they were wrong so I can apologise accordingly.



Bringing back the Angels of Darkness quote that was posted before regarding Lion beeing asleep in the rock waiting for the times where he would be needed again, isn't that odd? Isn't a Primarch always a good thing to have around? Unless he is wounded and healing, why would the Dark Angels keep him asleep? And when was he placed there?

Another question that's on my mind, although it's a bit offtopic but you guys should be the ones to ask: Page 47 of the DA Codex. The last Rites of Brother Ramiel. What's happening over there?

DarthMcBob
09-08-2010, 18:44
You're denying Descent of Angels, which clearly shows the Lion and his Legion personally fighting against the traitorous forces. It shows them defeating Horus' forces at heavy cost to themselves. They protect vital siege engines from the traitors. The Lion himself personally fights for the Emperor against the traitors. How on Earth is that ambiguous in any way? The Lion was loyal to the Emperor, and he proved it over the traitors' dead bodies. Get over it.

massey
09-08-2010, 19:52
Wich fluff sources have I denied?


No offense, man, but it's just obvious that you haven't read all the fluff sources for the subject you're discussing. That's why people are getting frustrated. It's like somebody saying "Oh, yeah, Gandalf is totally dead. He fell in the pit with the Balrog." And then you say "You know he's in the third book." And they're like "No way, man. He's dead." This is the same way. It's like not reading the third book.


It's hinted everywhere that the Dark Angels have their ways and that sometimes they may not be the most correct ones. The Lion is weird and goes with ways not too common for a loyal marine, not to mention Primarch. As I see it, he could be as heretic as Horus was (wich is hard to think of) or as loyal as Dorn, or even as something in the line with the Soul Drinkers, wich is more in the lines of where I place the whole Dark Angels ambiguity. They have their own agenda, that's for sure. How heretic that is, is up to each of us.

Bringing back the Angels of Darkness quote that was posted before regarding Lion beeing asleep in the rock waiting for the times where he would be needed again, isn't that odd? Isn't a Primarch always a good thing to have around? Unless he is wounded and healing, why would the Dark Angels keep him asleep? And when was he placed there?

Okay, this is what I mean. It's clear that you've got some misconceptions about the Dark Angels.

Yes, it is true that the Dark Angels do things their own way. By all appearances, they follow the rules set down in Guilleman's codex. Dark Angels follow the letter of the law, unlike guys like the Space Wolves, who openly flaunt the restrictions they're supposed to be following. Everything with the Dark Angels is letter of the law. Their geneseed works perfectly. They follow the codex nearly perfectly (with minor variations such as Ravenwing, but that's very minor). Even when the Dark Angels pick up and leave a campaign zone to pursue one of the Fallen, they're within their authority as Astartes to do that. Remember that they aren't under anyone's command except their own. So yeah, they leave some IG unsupported and run off to attack some space station, and they don't tell anyone where or why they're going, but they can do that. They aren't breaking any rules when they do so. When you consider that they are renowned for being master strategists, and are defending an empire where the ends always justify the means, no one really sheds a tear for the poor little lost guardsmen.

Now, obviously some of the High Lords are a little suspicious, and while the Dark Angels appear to be perfect little Ultramarine clones, it is clear they make certain people uneasy. However, and this is important, there is no evidence that they've ever done anything wrong. Inquisitors haven't even found anything warranting an investigation. Plus, while they may be suspicious acting, they are also renowned for attacking servants of Chaos pretty much on sight. And that has been pretty consistent throughout the background. So your questions about "If XYZ happens, would ABC attack the Dark Angels" result in an answer of "no." Whether they're loyal, traitor, or somewhere in between, remember that nobody else knows any of that.

To use an example from current events, while many countries around the world condemn Israel for various human rights violations, no one actually thinks that they are secretly working with the Palestinians, the Arabs, or the Iranians. The Dark Angels and Chaos are the same way. Many in the Imperium may not exactly trust them, but the last thing on their mind is that the DA are secretly Chaos followers.

--

Now, as far as the Lion being asleep in the Rock, this is why you need to read the Angels of Death codex. And to keep things straight, these are the different books and their titles:

Angels of Death = The 2nd edition codex that includes rules and background for the Dark Angels and the Blood Angels
Angels of Darkness = A Gav Thorpe novel in which the traitor Astelan first indicates that the distinction between the Fallen and the Loyalists is not as clear as one might believe
Descent of Angels = The first Dark Angels Horus Heresy novel
Fallen Angels = The second Dark Angels Horus Heresy novel

Okay, Angels of Death (the codex) makes clear that the Lion is in a chamber deep within the Rock. The reason the Dark Angels don't just go wake him up is because they don't know he's there. Basically, what happened is that when the Lion and Luther engaged in their big climactic mano-a-mano battle, the planet exploded and the Fallen were sucked out into the Warp. When the loyal Dark Angels arrive at the spot of the final confrontation, they find Luther there jibbering like a madman. The Lion has disappeared. Luther talks about how "The Watchers in the Dark" came and took him away. No one has seen him since.

He's down there in suspended animation, and given the Dark Angels' Arthurian legend theme, its probably similar to how Merlin was trapped underneath Camelot in Excalibur. So the joke is kind of on the Dark Angels, because their leader is right there, and yet they can't find him. You see, the Rock is a really big rock, and there are so many tunnels and chambers within it that not even the Dark Angels know them all. And that's about as canon as it gets. Nothing since has contradicted it in any way.

--

There are two problems with using Angels of Darkness (the Gav Thorpe novel) as the source for your theory. First (not really your fault), all the other Dark Angels players have already read it and formed their own opinions on it. It's like me not having ever seen Fight Club. We sort of missed the time period when everyone was excited about it and actively discussing it. The second problem is that the two new Dark Angels novels (the Horus Heresy ones) show a very different set of circumstances than what Astelan tells us in Angels of Darkness. In Fallen Angels, we see Luther literally glowing with power with all these Chaos runes drawn upon his skin and armor. Plus, there are a lot of little things that Astelan talks about that just don't mesh with what we see in the HH books. It would be like saying that the Lion drove a big red Ford pickup, and then in the new books we see him driving a yellow Honda Accord. You can't help but think "this isn't what Astelan said at all..."

When taken all together, most DA players have decided that Astelan was either actively lying to the Chaplain, or at best, had lied to himself over the years so much that he believed his own story. No one is saying that you can't read the stories how you wish, or that your take on it is "wrong" for your game. But it's kind of old news. :)


Another question that's on my mind, although it's a bit offtopic but you guys should be the ones to ask: Page 47 of the DA Codex. The last Rites of Brother Ramiel. What's happening over there?

It appears to be some sort of funeral service. There's no information other than the picture.

Merus
09-08-2010, 22:26
Well said, massey. Masterfully done as always.

TheDarkDaff
10-08-2010, 07:45
The only real bits that Massey missed that are worth reading on the events around the Horus Heresay from a Dark Angels point of view are "Call of the Lion" from the Tales of Heresay anthology and "The Lion and the Wolf, part 2" which is incredibly difficult to find.

"Call of the Lion" deals with Astelan when he was still an active member of the Great Crusade and the reasons behind why he got sent back to Caliban (basically he was too soft and humane).

"The Lion and the Wolf, part 2" deals with the conflict between Leman Russ and Lion El'Jonson after they arrive at Terra too late. It basically boils down to the Lion blaming Russ for the state of the Emporer because he delayed their arrival by stopping at revolting planets on the way (The Lion wanted to head straight for Terra to help the Emporer but knew he needed the Space Wolves with him or his legion would be destroyed). Russ accepts he is responsible for the Emporer's wounds and allows Lion to stab him in one of his hearts before the other Primarchs intervene. Russ then goes off feeling sorry for himself and has an epiphany of sorts while sleeping at the feet of a statue of the Emp.

When you take all the information into account we have numerous first hand accounts of the Lion fighting against Horus and trying his best to get to Terra as quickly as possible. The only thing conflicting with this is the story of Astellan who had been removed from active service due to errors in command and claimed to know that the Lion was a traitor despite not having any reliable communication with anything outside of Caliban. He is also the guy who personally opened fire on his fellow Dark Angels on his feeling that he was right.

ashc
10-08-2010, 08:01
Blood Angels:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_89JKhHMV8fs/Sm2wlLvQYWI/AAAAAAAAASg/iONolmsasUA/s400/mathiaslauridsengucci.jpg

but... Blood Angels (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.25hourbooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/sparkly_vampire_by_blastedgoose.png&imgrefurl=http://www.25hourbooks.com/2010/03/how-do-you-like-your-vampire/&usg=__BgGAAuLFVHvFoWxVPUTa9zYV3Oo=&h=1015&w=999&sz=1084&hl=en&start=0&tbnid=lZqDnxqpT_pCVM:&tbnh=149&tbnw=165&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsparkly%2Bvampire%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den% 26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D608%26tbs%3Disch: 1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=139&vpy=78&dur=680&hovh=226&hovw=223&tx=131&ty=79&ei=aAZhTIq0Ns6P4gbsoqTOCg&oei=aAZhTIq0Ns6P4gbsoqTOCg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0)?

On-topic, I really hate the Angels of Darkness book for all this. I am glad to see it being rectified with the HH books (one of its few saving graces). 'The Lion was a Traitor' is one of the dullest memes in 40k.

Grunge
10-08-2010, 19:20
I will finish Descent of Angels and post again only after I do. I started Descent a few months ago and never got to finish it because it was beeing goddamn boring at the beginning. Then read passages from the front and spoiled all the book without, it seems, getting much knowledge out of it.

I apologise if I seemed to deny that as a source of anything. it was not my objective to deny what you were giving me but to oppose all that with what I knew from Angels of Darkness. My fault if it seemed I was denying it, and was probably a lousy idea from the start to discuss some of these topics without having read this novel. I haven't read Fallen Angels fully either. I am reading Codex: Angels of Death as we speak. Will also read both short stories mentioned from the Tales of Heresy pretty soon also.

Will probably get back here and rewrite some of my views after all that lol.

Joustarr
10-08-2010, 22:48
I havant read any of the novels. I do know a couple of things... I guess the fallen bloke(?) in the book was duped by Luther a skilled orator with chaos power, they all were. Any deformation of the Primarch's character is soley down to him. No one else in the galaxy (to my knowledge) has questioned his loyalty.
I rekon when they get the last fallen, The Lion will return and forgive Luther. His sins washed away with the blood of his followers. I realise I could be wrong.

PostinDirty
11-08-2010, 00:38
Codex: Angels of Darkness

Angels of Death, dude

and really i can't remember anything from it that wasn't covered in the latest dex? granted, its been at least 12 years since i last read it.

the latest codex outlines the whole involvement of the DAs during the HH pretty well, and the circumstances they found themselves in upon returning to Caliban.