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DarthMcBob
01-08-2010, 04:30
I just had a few questions about Chaos Space Marines:

1. They constantly tell the Imperials that the Emperor is "a withered corpse on a throne" or something like that, but how would they know? The only Chaos guy to see the Emperor in his injured state was Horus, and he's so dead that his soul is annihilated. The next person to find the Big E was Rogal Dorn, who took him to the Golden Throne. So how would they know what became of the Emperor at all?

2. In the novel where Chaos Space Marines are viewpoint characters, they almost constantly think and boast of how superior they are to normal humans, or "mortals", whom they view as trash at best. Why is that so? They were all normal humans once, and they are only the way they are now thanks to the "False Emperor" they hate so much.

Rat Catcher
01-08-2010, 06:00
I just had a few questions about Chaos Space Marines:

1. They constantly tell the Imperials that the Emperor is "a withered corpse on a throne" or something like that, but how would they know? The only Chaos guy to see the Emperor in his injured state was Horus, and he's so dead that his soul is annihilated. The next person to find the Big E was Rogal Dorn, who took him to the Golden Throne. So how would they know what became of the Emperor at all?

It's probably just that word reached them. If your average Imperial citizen knows that the Emperor is on the throne, why wouldn't the Chaos Legions be able to figure it out?


2. In the novel where Chaos Space Marines are viewpoint characters, they almost constantly think and boast of how superior they are to normal humans, or "mortals", whom they view as trash at best. Why is that so? They were all normal humans once, and they are only the way they are now thanks to the "False Emperor" they hate so much.

This isn't limited to traitors Legions. Loyalist Astartes commonly refer to human-beings as "mortals" as well. When you ascend into the ranks of the super-human, elite of the elite, and are made to live hundreds of years, I can imagine it would go to your head a bit.

When your status of no longer being a mere human is constantly reinforced in your training, beliefs; and it's even part of your brain-washing initiation, it's easy to see why they no longer associate themselves with humanity.

DarthMcBob
01-08-2010, 06:20
It's probably just that word reached them. If your average Imperial citizen knows that the Emperor is on the throne, why wouldn't the Chaos Legions be able to figure it out?

The average Imperial citizen only knows that the Emperor ascended to the Golden Throne 10,000 years ago to reign as a god. The fact that he was badly injured is kept a secret from all but the highest ranking Inquisitors and other such people.


This isn't limited to traitors Legions. Loyalist Astartes commonly refer to human-beings as "mortals" as well. When you ascend into the ranks of the super-human, elite of the elite, and are made to live hundreds of years, I can imagine it would go to your head a bit.

When your status of no longer being a mere human is constantly reinforced in your training, beliefs; and it's even part of your brain-washing initiation, it's easy to see why they no longer associate themselves with humanity.

But the loyalist Space marines at least acknowledge that they are only that way thanks to the blessing of the Emperor. Traitor Legions are only super-powerful because the Emperor's blood flows in their veins, and yet they hate and despise the Emperor. So what, exactly, do they think about that?

Rat Catcher
01-08-2010, 06:48
The average Imperial citizen only knows that the Emperor ascended to the Golden Throne 10,000 years ago to reign as a god. The fact that he was badly injured is kept a secret from all but the highest ranking Inquisitors and other such people.

The average citizen knows he's entombed in the throne, he isn't going anywhere. I can only imagine that the Chaos Legions can guess just why that is.

If you're looking for a lore citing of how they know, I don't have one.


But the loyalist Space marines at least acknowledge that they are only that way thanks to the blessing of the Emperor. Traitor Legions are only super-powerful because the Emperor's blood flows in their veins, and yet they hate and despise the Emperor. So what, exactly, do they think about that?

They don't see it that way. They see the blood of their father flowing through them; they are what they are because of them. Most traitor Primarchs are viewed with absolute awe by their chapters. You have to remember, the traitor Legions followed their fathers into damnation.

They acknowledge the gene-legacy of their fathers, and view the Emperor with nothing but contempt.. regardless of him having made those same fathers.

Scribe of Khorne
01-08-2010, 06:55
But the loyalist Space marines at least acknowledge that they are only that way thanks to the blessing of the Emperor. Traitor Legions are only super-powerful because the Emperor's blood flows in their veins, and yet they hate and despise the Emperor. So what, exactly, do they think about that?

Emperor's blood in their veins? Their Primarchs 'blood' (geneseed), not the emperors.

And even then, its not like the Chaos Legions parted ways on a happy note, they felt betrayed, used, dishonoured, and so on. "Family" ties like you seem to believe exist count for far more on the negative side when feelings of betrayal are brought into a situation.

Gue'Vesa'Vre Kilo
01-08-2010, 18:06
I can imagine a few possibilities:
1) The CSMs doesn't know the Emperor is dead, they are merely making fun and insulting the imperialists about the fact the the Emperor is sitting on the throne and appearently doing nothing.
2) The Chaos Gods, who should know what had happened, told them.
3) leaders of the CSMs, not knowing whether or not the Emperor is dead, simply bluffed that the Emperor was killed.
4) The CSMs are smart enough to figure out that the Emperor is dead (remember, unlike the Imperialists, many CSMs survived into the modern 40k universe).

AFAIK there are no resources that showed where the knowledge of the dead emperor came from.

Regarding the fact that the CSMs 'superiority' over humans the answers are already given.

Zweischneid
01-08-2010, 18:30
I would kinda assume the knowledge that the Emperor isn't in the best of all conditions is "known" among the Imperium as well. Maybe not your common back-water-planet-civilian, but most Marines, higher Members of the Bureaucracy, etc.., etc.., should probably be aware, or at least suspect it.

The difference is, if you're in the Imperium, even sworn to protect it, you don't go about shouting it out loud. And if you do it anyways; the Eye of Terror might suddenly look alot more appealing after all.

Caelnaethon
01-08-2010, 18:31
I can imagine a few possibilities:
1) The CSMs doesn't know the Emperor is dead, they are merely making fun and insulting the imperialists about the fact the the Emperor is sitting on the throne and appearently doing nothing.
2) The Chaos Gods, who should know what had happened, told them.
3) leaders of the CSMs, not knowing whether or not the Emperor is dead, simply bluffed that the Emperor was killed.
4) The CSMs are smart enough to figure out that the Emperor is dead (remember, unlike the Imperialists, many CSMs survived into the modern 40k universe).
Added to these, a lot of people, from Space Marines to radical Inquisitors, have fallen to Chaos in the years since the heresy. Sooner or later, someone with knowledge of the Emperor's true condition would have crossed over and passed on the news.

Zweischneid
01-08-2010, 18:35
Also, don't they feed the Throne with 1000 Psykers a day or some such? As well as directing the Astronomicon? I would think the Gods of Chaos at least can pick these things up fairly well and draw quite a bit of information from it.

hellharlequin
01-08-2010, 19:37
not to mention that some saw the fight with their own eyes
(abbadon had to get the claw some how)

Lord Nestron
01-08-2010, 19:37
Im ean every supermal has securty camras you would think a capitol ship of your armee has a few. Might not have any in horus chamber but the ways to and from would and you see him walk in and get carried out you can do the maths

Chem-Dog
01-08-2010, 19:37
The average Imperial citizen only knows that the Emperor ascended to the Golden Throne 10,000 years ago to reign as a god. The fact that he was badly injured is kept a secret from all but the highest ranking Inquisitors and other such people.

The image of the ruined Emperor atop his throne is one of the more holy images of worship within the Imperium (see attached image). It's only reasonable that a Chaos Space Marine will eventually encounter this image and for it to become the de rigeur insult.


But the loyalist Space marines at least acknowledge that they are only that way thanks to the blessing of the Emperor. Traitor Legions are only super-powerful because the Emperor's blood flows in their veins, and yet they hate and despise the Emperor. So what, exactly, do they think about that?

You could say that of every son who hates his father....
Remember that CSM's are largely of the belief that the Emperor betrayed them and their primarch.


Emperor's blood in their veins? Their Primarchs 'blood' (geneseed), not the emperors.

The Primarchs are commonly held to have been built from material provided bt the Emperor himself, when they say he is the Father of the Primarchs, it's not just poetic allegory.

Griti
01-08-2010, 23:04
In Codex: Chaos Daemons there is a short story in which the Emperor is referred to as the Carrion-Man.
I think this supports the theory about the Gods knowing about his condition and passing on the information to their servants.

Just my two cents :)

Chem-Dog
01-08-2010, 23:10
Point is, it's nothing like the secret some people believe it to be :)

Scribe of Khorne
01-08-2010, 23:49
The Primarchs are commonly held to have been built from material provided bt the Emperor himself, when they say he is the Father of the Primarchs, it's not just poetic allegory.

Father of the Primarchs, not father of the legions. There is another step between the legions and the emperor that would make that loyalty gap larger. By and large, I believe the legions looked to their Primarchs as 'father'.

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 06:54
1. They constantly tell the Imperials that the Emperor is "a withered corpse on a throne" or something like that, but how would they know? The only Chaos guy to see the Emperor in his injured state was Horus, and he's so dead that his soul is annihilated. The next person to find the Big E was Rogal Dorn, who took him to the Golden Throne. So how would they know what became of the Emperor at all?

I'd imagine that they found out through the mysteries of the Empyrean. Also, there is the idea that if they can feel the sudden death of Horus, it is possible that they felt the mutilation of the Emperor.


2. In the novel where Chaos Space Marines are viewpoint characters, they almost constantly think and boast of how superior they are to normal humans, or "mortals", whom they view as trash at best. Why is that so? They were all normal humans once, and they are only the way they are now thanks to the "False Emperor" they hate so much.

The basic reason is because its easier for us readers to believe a villain like that. "He hates you, Mr. Reader, so he must be evol." The background explanations are multitudinous, ranging from hating humanity for ruling what should be theres to despising the weaknesses in the basic human form.

Personally, one aspect I've always liked about the Astartes, traitor and loyalist, is one that we've seen throughout our military history. In a warrior society, the warriors are the princes, kings, and nobles. They dominate and are given the most respect. As a warrior society morphs into something more civilian-centric, the warriors despair their loss of power and begin to hate the very people they were trained to protect.

Unfortunately, GW attributed this sentiment almost exclusively to Angron and then further devolved it into "I like Khorne because he lets me club stuff." Any Primarch or Astartes warrior, near the end of the Great Crusade, has to come to terms with the fact that conquest is ending and they are losing some of the unlimited power they once held. This is a perfect justification why huge numbers of them rebelled, in my eyes at least. They refused to settle for a mundane existence. They chose to try and conquer the very domain they helped create, because in the end it is all they know how to do.

From this mindset, it is easy to hate mankind because the majority of it rules what the Chaos Marines wish to conquer and because they inherited it where the Chaos Marines fought for it. Or at the very least, this is how they see it.

ashc
02-08-2010, 08:07
Very succinct, Son of Sanguinius.

Iracundus
02-08-2010, 10:24
Personally, one aspect I've always liked about the Astartes, traitor and loyalist, is one that we've seen throughout our military history. In a warrior society, the warriors are the princes, kings, and nobles. They dominate and are given the most respect. As a warrior society morphs into something more civilian-centric, the warriors despair their loss of power and begin to hate the very people they were trained to protect.

Unfortunately, GW attributed this sentiment almost exclusively to Angron and then further devolved it into "I like Khorne because he lets me club stuff." Any Primarch or Astartes warrior, near the end of the Great Crusade, has to come to terms with the fact that conquest is ending and they are losing some of the unlimited power they once held. This is a perfect justification why huge numbers of them rebelled, in my eyes at least. They refused to settle for a mundane existence. They chose to try and conquer the very domain they helped create, because in the end it is all they know how to do.


The Heresy in some sense can be seen as the struggle to exert a civilian control over a realm gained through the military conquests of 20 fairly autonomous warlords. Unfortunately GW has focused on the superhero larger than life personalities of the Primarchs rather dwelling over much on this fundamental shift from a military empire to a civilian administered one.

Historically, warrior classes were not always the most adept at actually administering large realms since their skills and training were more focused around actually fighting. The societies that prevail among the Chaos Legions and certain loyalist Chapters might be seen as a potential future, of what the Imperium might have become: a military oligarchy with the Space Marines as the favored class, occasionally descending down to scoop up tithes of material or new recruits, and everyone else as their servants, slaves, or serfs either directly or indirectly.

Whether such a system would have worked on such a large scale is unknown, though there is a quote from real history: "You may have conquered the empire on the back of a horse, but you cannot rule it from the back of a horse." It is possible that such a system would have in the long run suffered from warlordism as there would be essentially large scale autonomous fiefdoms/kingdoms.

Malice313
02-08-2010, 12:31
1. They constantly tell the Imperials that the Emperor is "a withered corpse on a throne" or something like that, but how would they know?

Well, as many people have pointed out, it is fairly well known in Imperial lore that the Emperor is on the Golden throne.

CSM's are also often in contact with powerful Daemons and Chaos Gods, who's knowledge of such things is far, far greater than most high level Imperial officers.


2. In the novel where Chaos Space Marines are viewpoint characters, they almost constantly think and boast of how superior they are to normal humans, or "mortals", whom they view as trash at best. Why is that so? They were all normal humans once, and they are only the way they are now thanks to the "False Emperor" they hate so much.

Traditionally the Traitor Legions hubris, and their subsequent fall, was based on them being superior physically to normal humans. Why should they not be the masters of the weak cattle that make up humanity? Chaos rewards the strong and cunning as it subjugates the weak and cow-tailing.

This lead to a major part of the indoctrination of SM's "Sacrificing their humanity to save Humanity."

Subsequent fluff changed, added and retconed this to such a degree that it is either unrecognisable or completely changed. So much so that it has been completely ignored in the HH books as well as being anathema to newcomers.

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 16:10
Very succinct, Son of Sanguinius.

"Suck what?"

(Kudos if you get the reference ;) )


The Heresy in some sense can be seen as the struggle to exert a civilian control over a realm gained through the military conquests of 20 fairly autonomous warlords. Unfortunately GW has focused on the superhero larger than life personalities of the Primarchs rather dwelling over much on this fundamental shift from a military empire to a civilian administered one.

Historically, warrior classes were not always the most adept at actually administering large realms since their skills and training were more focused around actually fighting. The societies that prevail among the Chaos Legions and certain loyalist Chapters might be seen as a potential future, of what the Imperium might have become: a military oligarchy with the Space Marines as the favored class, occasionally descending down to scoop up tithes of material or new recruits, and everyone else as their servants, slaves, or serfs either directly or indirectly.

Whether such a system would have worked on such a large scale is unknown, though there is a quote from real history: "You may have conquered the empire on the back of a horse, but you cannot rule it from the back of a horse." It is possible that such a system would have in the long run suffered from warlordism as there would be essentially large scale autonomous fiefdoms/kingdoms.

I really think you can have both, if you take the time. There can be a scenario where the Primarchs are even more super fantastic than they are now and yet still suffer from realistic drawbacks. As Gav suggested in Angels of Darkness, the Primarchs and Astartes are not human and suffer in their understanding of humanity because of it.

Interestingly enough, one then must ask the question as to why the Emperor let things go the way they did. The only two explanations are 1) he was over confident in his sons or 2) he actually intended for them to be that way. 2) has all kinds of fun implications.

And yes, my two possibilities overlook the simple explanation of crappy writing, but I still hold hope, damn you. :D

totgeboren
02-08-2010, 20:19
Well, the war didn't end with the battle for Terra.
The fluff says that the loyalist forces slowly retook the worlds allied to the Warmaster, and for example Guilliman was slain (more or less) way after the heresy.

It was also Guilliman that held the shattered Imperium together with the loss of the Emperor.

If you were a Chaos Marine, the Battle for Terra would have resulted in the Warmaster being slain, and suddenly the Emperor does nothing.

He does not appear in any battles whatsoever, Guilliman administers the Imperium, and his absence from the scene would be quite apparent, since he lead the Imperium before the conflict.

It's simple to add two and two together. At first there is an Emperor that does everything, then suddenly he does nothing.

I too would assume he died if I was in the shoes of a Chaos Marine.

jdunn
03-08-2010, 03:38
the chaos daemons know the emporer is dead, or sleeping or whatever. they constantly refer to loyalist marines as having "the stench of the Corpse-god".