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madd0ct0r
01-08-2010, 14:19
All I know is they are a divergent alien race, attacked by the EC.

Answers on a postcard.

Karl MkVI
01-08-2010, 14:47
All I know is they are a divergent alien race, attacked by the EC.

Answers on a postcard.

have you read Fulgrim?

either way, Lexicanum's info is fairly accurate:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Laer

and it also has links, such as (surprisingly) 'Laeran' :). hope this stuff helps.

Idaan
01-08-2010, 15:04
In addition to what Karl said, there are two interesting points:

They were Slaanesh worshippers even before Slaanesh was born - they didn't seem to have converted only 200 years before. While this is quite possible, what with Chaos gods being eternal and a god of excess existing before Slaanesh, that's most probably before Graham McNeill has no idea when the Fall of the Eldar was (note how he describes Ulthwe and Eldrad as ancient even though Fall was just 200 years prior)

Even though they are naga-people (snake lower body and humanoid torso) the statues in their temple are of bull headed humanoids. This makes little sense, but again, McNeill didn't think it out.

Lothlanathorian
01-08-2010, 17:23
Well, if the statues are meant to be of the Keeper of Secrets and the reader was supposed to get that when he described them, then it makes sense. In a kind 'lowest common denominator' way.

CasaHouse
01-08-2010, 17:41
They were Slaanesh worshippers even before Slaanesh was born - they didn't seem to have converted only 200 years before. While this is quite possible, what with Chaos gods being eternal and a god of excess existing before Slaanesh, that's most probably before Graham McNeill has no idea when the Fall of the Eldar was (note how he describes Ulthwe and Eldrad as ancient even though Fall was just 200 years prior)

Big logical leap here. "They didn't seem like they only converted 200 years ago, despite there being no evidence for or against it, so they must have been doing it for much longer time." There's no mention of any kind of timeline at all, you're just assuming. 200 years is a very long time. Plenty of time to build a temple, some statues, and have a lot of god-serving sex.

And I'm pretty sure Eldrad and Ulthwe were ancient. They weren't both born during the fall, were they? We have no idea how old Eldrad actually was, we just know he was already a Farseer during the Heresy, so he was probably at least several hundred years old at that point.

And Ulthwe was caught in the gravity of the Eye when it opened. So It had to have existed before the fall as well. Graham looks to have a solid handle on when the fall happened. You just seem to have an axe to grind.


Even though they are naga-people (snake lower body and humanoid torso) the statues in their temple are of bull headed humanoids. This makes little sense, but again, McNeill didn't think it out.

It makes perfect sense. "massive bull-headed creatures with multiple arms and great horns curling from their skulls. Numerous barbed rings pierced their stone flesh and each god's chest was sheathed in layered armor plate that left the right breast bare." Sounds like a textbook description of a Keeper of Secrets to me. Y'know? The Greater Daemons of Slaanesh? That God the Laer worship? How does that not make sense?

If I worship the bull/snake/raven/whatever god, I wouldn't build statues of humans to worship them with.

I don't like the book Fulgrim for a number of reasons, but don't say the author didn't do his homework when you haven't put more than a passing thought to your own arguments.

Scalebug
01-08-2010, 19:35
Apart from 200 years being plenty of time to establish a world religion, especially in a standard mono-culture sci-fi culture, the Fall of The Eldar wasn't really just the one big bada-boom when the Eye of Terror erupted and Slaanesh was born, the God spent thousands of years dreaming while influencing and feed-back being influenced by the more and more depraved Eldar cilvilisation, given that this formation period was what messed up Warp-space and cut off Earth from the human colonies during hte Age of Strife, M20-30-ish. And even then, there would likely have been a period where the forming god was strong enough to make an influence, but not yet gathered enough to disturb the Warp.

Add to this the Codex: Daemons underlining of the Chaos Gods considering Cause and Effect and Linear Time being for suckers...

Eldrads age isn't really mentioned, and neither is the minimum age to be a Farseer, but in any case he was already one when attempting to warn the Emperor in M31. The lifespan and Ages of Eldar in general isn't really put down in any hard or fast way either in any canon texts, it is mostly the slightly fuzzy assumption of them being Space Elves, so not really that concerned wit haging, But IMO, it seems suggested that he was a bit special in his holding of the crystallisation process as long as he did, and that he wouldn't normally be supposed to be around as long as he did.

Similar with Astrubael Vect (sp?), he is suggested to be 10.000 and change years old (being a child during the actual fall, as in the final blast and last minute escape and establishment of Commoragh), but it not really being the norm for an Eldar. Dark or Vanilla.

DarthMcBob
01-08-2010, 20:58
*puts on Commissar cap*

We know that they were a race of foul xenos and that they were gloriously purged by the Emperor's holy forces during the Great Crusade. Needing to know anything else is HERESY!

negZero
01-08-2010, 21:24
*puts on Commissar cap*

We know that they were a race of foul xenos and that they were gloriously purged by the Emperor's holy forces during the Great Crusade. Needing to know anything else is HERESY!

But they were purged by traitors.

Green-is-best
01-08-2010, 21:48
But they were purged by traitors.

They were loyalists at the time.

Col. Tartleton
02-08-2010, 15:41
*Puts on Inquisitor Hood*

We know that they were a race of foul xenos and that they were gloriously purged by the God Emperor's (Peace Be Upon Him) holy forces during the Great Crusade. These Xenos were so foul that the soldiers who fought them went mad with their foul heresies and were decimated by holier servants of the God Emperor (Peace be Upon Him).

*Pulls out Excruciator*

Remember kids, Knowing anything else is HERESY!



Brought to you by our sponsors: HIS HOLY ORDERS OF THE INQUISITION; "We Want You!"

And by KFC "For Over Ten Thousand Years We've Been Making Chicken the Way The God Emperor Intended, With the 11 Loyal Secret Herbs and Spices."

Idaan
02-08-2010, 16:54
And Ulthwe was caught in the gravity of the Eye when it opened. So It had to have existed before the fall as well. Graham looks to have a solid handle on when the fall happened. You just seem to have an axe to grind.

I don't like the book Fulgrim for a number of reasons, but don't say the author didn't do his homework when you haven't put more than a passing thought to your own arguments.

Nope:

Lost in the vastness of space, the craftworld floated in utter isolation. No star-shine illuminated its sleek towers, and distant from the warmth of sun or planet, its domes stared into the darkness of empty space.
Few outside of those who lived long and melancholy lives aboard the graceful space-city could know that it was home to the few survivors of planets abandoned aeons ago amidst terrifying destruction. Upon this craftworld dwelled the eldar, a race all but extinct, the last remnants of a people that had once ruled the galaxy and whose mere dreams had overturned worlds and quenched suns.You can hardly call 200 years aeons.



It makes perfect sense. "massive bull-headed creatures with multiple arms and great horns curling from their skulls. Numerous barbed rings pierced their stone flesh and each god's chest was sheathed in layered armor plate that left the right breast bare." Sounds like a textbook description of a Keeper of Secrets to me. Y'know? The Greater Daemons of Slaanesh? That God the Laer worship? How does that not make sense? So even though the Laer have no breasts, they worship daemonettes as six-breasted, because somehow breasts have sexual appeal to them, despite having never seen breasts before. And if a race of sentient gaseous beings (like the Drahedra) started worshipping Slaanesh, they'd still depict him as strictly humanoidal and sexual in the Eldar/human way. Or if a race built of silicon started worshipping Nurgle, they'd have him rotting like only fleshy carbon-based lifeforms can rot?
Even more, Slaaneshi daemons are explicitly described as multi-formed, using glamours to change their appearance for most appealing to the viewer. Even if their true form is somehow humanoid, they'd change it for something that looks like Laer when being summoned by them.


If I worship the bull/snake/raven/whatever god, I wouldn't build statues of humans to worship them with.That's the point. You worship it in form you're familiar with, that has features you can identify with. Even if it's a raven, you see ravens every day. From animalised gods, through human-animal gods of ancient Egypt, to Greek pantheon that looked like humans and just behaved like total douches. Even the ones like Cybele in her most ancient, 99-breasted form were just exaggerations of some traits familiar to humans. As it stands, the Laer worshipped a god whose appearance was completely alien to their mindset. Why have legs when snaketails are perfectly good?

You can also note that when different civilisations adopted other gods, they "updated" their looks to what fitted their aesthetics. Egyptian gods when worshipped by Romans no longer had animal heads etc etc.

And yes, I have an axe to grind, and yes, you can explain everything in 40k by bending the rules a bit. I'm not saying that their depiction can't be made to fit canon, or in case of Slaanesh worship before Slaanesh being born already fitting canon very well. I'm saying that this wasn't the author's intention and that he screwed up when writing it.

Israfael
02-08-2010, 19:49
And yes, I have an axe to grind

Boy is that an understatement. This is one of many posts you've made repeating just how much McNeills' work bothers you.

You would think that is was personal.

TrooperTino
02-08-2010, 20:09
So even though the Laer have no breasts, they worship daemonettes as six-breasted, because somehow breasts have sexual appeal to them, despite having never seen breasts before. And if a race of sentient gaseous beings (like the Drahedra) started worshipping Slaanesh, they'd still depict him as strictly humanoidal and sexual in the Eldar/human way. Or if a race built of silicon started worshipping Nurgle, they'd have him rotting like only fleshy carbon-based lifeforms can rot?
Even more, Slaaneshi daemons are explicitly described as multi-formed, using glamours to change their appearance for most appealing to the viewer. Even if their true form is somehow humanoid, they'd change it for something that looks like Laer when being summoned by them.


And yes, I have an axe to grind, and yes, you can explain everything in 40k by bending the rules a bit. I'm not saying that their depiction can't be made to fit canon, or in case of Slaanesh worship before Slaanesh being born already fitting canon very well. I'm saying that this wasn't the author's intention and that he screwed up when writing it.

I think thats a good point... the autor let it look like something the fans instantly recognize but screwed the fluff behind it... to his credit you have to admit there's no (I'm missing the english word) other depiction of a deamonette in 40k that looks appealing to, for example, a liveform made of gas without body. He had no source other than the deamonettes appearing we know.

Sephiroth
02-08-2010, 20:35
Boy is that an understatement. This is one of many posts you've made repeating just how much McNeills' work bothers you.

You would think that is was personal.

To be fair to Idaan though, it does seem to be a pretty big slip up. I mean, the Fall is pretty central to the Eldar's background; its comparable to the writer putting a Space Marine Legion into the 41st Millennium, or describing a Tau attack during the Great Crusade...

The Fall of the Eldar was the creation of the Eye of Terror and Slaanesh, the Chaos God's birth clearing the warp-storms so the Great Crusade could begin. Thus if we're 200 years into the Great Crusade, the Eldar civilisation of the past has only been gone two centuries...

By the time-keeping of the Eldar's that not even a generation.

Wyrmwood
02-08-2010, 20:46
IIRC, Ulthwe was one of the first Craftworlds to actually leave the Empire (despite it being so close to the heart at the time of the calamity, but that can be explained by a number of reasons I guess) so it's highly possible that they had abandoned the Empire hundreds of years before 'The Fall', perhaps even several thousand. But still, aeons is too strong a word I think.

Karl MkVI
02-08-2010, 20:49
I agree with Idaan. however, if I may offer one possible explanation;

I sincerely doubt that they're going for a retcon about the time of The Fall. however, that could very much be it. it has always seemed that at the time of the Great Crusade, The Fall is too recent. for a start; humanity colonizes parts of the galaxy during the reign of the Eldar (in the Dark Age of Technology). why, if the Eldar 'ruled the galaxy' (say, for example, on the scale that humanity did at the height of the Crusade), did they allow any humans to colonize worlds? even forgetting that argument, doesnt it just seem that the Fall is too close to humanity's rise? the Great Crusade is amongst the stars a mere few decades after the Fall. I just dont think it feels right, and never has. the warp storms during the Age of Strife could be explained away with other reasons (excuses...?;)), which would leave space for a retcon.

just my two cents. but if they aren't going for a retcon, then i definitely agree with Idaan; big buboe...

madden
02-08-2010, 21:00
I'm sure somewhere it says that when slaanesh was formed it changed the realms of chaos so that he/it. Was always there so that could explain the discrepancey,(just can't remember where I saw it, in the last 15/20 years things have changed a bit.)

Clockwork-Knight
02-08-2010, 21:25
The Fall of the Eldar Empire still only happened two centuries ago.

Just chalk it up to the naturally shoddy editing of Black Library. They've never been that good, and they're not going to improve anytime soon.

Idaan
02-08-2010, 21:29
Boy is that an understatement. This is one of many posts you've made repeating just how much McNeills' work bothers you.

You would think that is was personal.

No it isn't, Dan Abnett doesn't know that too.



I think thats a good point... the autor let it look like something the fans instantly recognize but screwed the fluff behind it... to his credit you have to admit there's no (I'm missing the english word) other depiction of a deamonette in 40k that looks appealing to, for example, a liveform made of gas without body. He had no source other than the deamonettes appearing we know.
Well, there is the boobsnake/fiend of Slaanesh which I think would appeal to the Laer. Somehow merging its shape with that of a KoS would be a way to go. I could have accepted the statues themselves being polymorphous, changing themselves from snakelike into bovine-headed humanoids as the Marines concentrated their attention on them.


I agree with Idaan. however, if I may offer one possible explanation;

I sincerely doubt that they're going for a retcon about the time of The Fall. however, that could very much be it. it has always seemed that at the time of the Great Crusade, The Fall is too recent. for a start; humanity colonizes parts of the galaxy during the reign of the Eldar (in the Dark Age of Technology). why, if the Eldar 'ruled the galaxy' (say, for example, on the scale that humanity did at the height of the Crusade), did they allow any humans to colonize worlds? even forgetting that argument, doesnt it just seem that the Fall is too close to humanity's rise? the Great Crusade is amongst the stars a mere few decades after the Fall. I just dont think it feels right, and never has. the warp storms during the Age of Strife could be explained away with other reasons (excuses...?), which would leave space for a retcon.

just my two cents. but if they aren't going for a retcon, then i definitely agree with Idaan; big buboe... That, certainly, I could live with. Aside from things you mentioned, it would explain why there were huge Ork empires like Ullanor during the Crusade - while the Eldar could have let humanity just colonise the leftover worlds, they certainly would have curbed the Ork population to a more managable size.
But has a major retcon like this ever been introduced through BL first? I mean, if it's done on purpose, it has to come from Merrett first?

Karl MkVI
02-08-2010, 21:34
That, certainly, I could live with. Aside from things you mentioned, it would explain why there were huge Ork empires like Ullanor during the Crusade - while the Eldar could have let humanity just colonise the leftover worlds, they certainly would have curbed the Ork population to a more managable size.

good point. in fact, im slowly liking this idea. but then again, I would (for the reasons I have already stated)! :)



But has a major retcon like this ever been introduced through BL first? I mean, if it's done on purpose, it has to come from Merrett first?

indeed. but Alan Merrett has overall control at BL too (with regards to the HH at least); he's the head man in Horus Heresy meetings. Aaron Dembski-Bowden's blog says as much.

Plebian
02-08-2010, 21:45
I agree. It always seemed weird that the Eldar Empire and the star spanning human colonies during daot existed simultaneously.

And maybe the statue looks different depending on the viewer. We only see the 'human' form. That would be very Slaaneshi.

Clockwork-Knight
02-08-2010, 22:37
Why would that be weird? The eldar just weren't that interested in humans, and humans made sure that they didn't **** off the eldar too much.
Also, the eldar were more interested in creating worlds on their own and then living on them, instead of annihilating other races and take their living place (which they probably considere filthy anyway).

As long as the humans didn't anger the local eldar authority, they weren't annihilated.

After all, humans in the golden age of technology were not an united bunch, so any human group that did anger the eldar just got wiped out, and nobody came to their help.

The eldar did the same thing with the necrons. Do not wake them up, and they'll let the eldar live their lives as whimsical poets and bakers who frolick in lush forests and crystal spires.

Plebian
02-08-2010, 22:48
Well, both the Great Crusade and the Current Eldar's attitude is that they are going to 'reclaim their birthright' to rule the galaxy. Suggesting that they were supreme. I just think it is odd that both were supreme at the same time.

Clockwork-Knight
02-08-2010, 23:13
The current eldar's attitude is that they're all going to die, one way or another. Those who deny this are the very young eldar, or a few militant craftworlds like Biel-Tann or Saim-Hann.
All their deeds is about prolonging their existence and their civiliation for the short time there still is.
The emperor-dude had foreseen that the eldar's great empire ceased to exist, and that their time is now gone forever. He prepared the great crusade, and was finished with all his preparation when Slaanesh destroyed the eldar's civilization in a moment, conquering all that was possible in the stars.
With his foresight, the emperor knew exactly when warp-travel was possible again, which gave the united empire of Terra and Mars a headstart compared to other human or alien faction, who had to rediscover warp travel again.

abasio
03-08-2010, 03:22
I thought the craftworlds were originally vast trading ships before the fall and that their routes would often take them 1000s of lightyears away from the Eldar empire and they may only have returned a few times every 1000 years or so allowing them to see the degredation of the species while staying apart from it. That is the essence of the craftworld right? Or so I got from one of the expansion books from the early 90s (not sure which one) Those that were far away at the time Slaanesh was born were not instantly annihilated.

So the Ulthwe craftworld could have been one of these vast trading ships that existed for aeons before the fall.

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-08-2010, 04:59
So the Ulthwe craftworld could have been one of these vast trading ships that existed for aeons before the fall.

You don't really need a could in there. The Craftworlds are based on the old galactic trading ships so the core parts of Ulthwe would almost certainly have been old even at the time of the Fall.

And of course lets not forget that the Eldar Empire had almost ceased to exist as an actually functioning whole before the Fall actually happened. There would have been no effective central government or any sort of coherent policy towards other planets/race, expansionist or otherwise.

The Eldars at this stage is pretty much only concerned with doing whatever the individual Eldar wants to do and happy to let all the automation run there Empire for them. So going by the speed (or rather completely lack of) that anything happens in the 40k universe there will likely have been hundreds, if not thousand of years before the actual birth scream of Slaanesh where the Eldar Imperium for all practical purposes didn't really exist and where what would later be known as the Exodites and the Craftworld Eldars would get worried and leave.

DarthMcBob
04-08-2010, 05:10
So even though the Laer have no breasts, they worship daemonettes as six-breasted, because somehow breasts have sexual appeal to them, despite having never seen breasts before. And if a race of sentient gaseous beings (like the Drahedra) started worshipping Slaanesh, they'd still depict him as strictly humanoidal and sexual in the Eldar/human way. Or if a race built of silicon started worshipping Nurgle, they'd have him rotting like only fleshy carbon-based lifeforms can rot?
Even more, Slaaneshi daemons are explicitly described as multi-formed, using glamours to change their appearance for most appealing to the viewer. Even if their true form is somehow humanoid, they'd change it for something that looks like Laer when being summoned by them.
That's the point. You worship it in form you're familiar with, that has features you can identify with. Even if it's a raven, you see ravens every day. From animalised gods, through human-animal gods of ancient Egypt, to Greek pantheon that looked like humans and just behaved like total douches. Even the ones like Cybele in her most ancient, 99-breasted form were just exaggerations of some traits familiar to humans. As it stands, the Laer worshipped a god whose appearance was completely alien to their mindset. Why have legs when snaketails are perfectly good?

You can also note that when different civilisations adopted other gods, they "updated" their looks to what fitted their aesthetics. Egyptian gods when worshipped by Romans no longer had animal heads etc etc.


Daemonettes don't look very attractive to me, either. In fact, they look so incredibly repulsive that I doubt you could get me drunk enough to find one appealing. Despite that, however, we're told that in universe they seem "attractive yet repulsive" at the same time, thanks to warp-magic. The mere fact that they have crab claws and horns and stuff does not stop them from being incredibly attractive to in-universe humans. Why should we believe that the Laer would be any different? Besides, there were apparently very potent narcotics in the same room, which might dull their senses a bit.

Merus
04-08-2010, 05:19
Daemonettes don't look very attractive to me, either. In fact, they look so incredibly repulsive that I doubt you could get me drunk enough to find one appealing. Despite that, however, we're told that in universe they seem "attractive yet repulsive" at the same time, thanks to warp-magic. The mere fact that they have crab claws and horns and stuff does not stop them from being incredibly attractive to in-universe humans. Why should we believe that the Laer would be any different? Besides, there were apparently very potent narcotics in the same room, which might dull their senses a bit.

That's an interesting point you make.

Muad'Dib
04-08-2010, 08:04
And yes, I have an axe to grind, and yes, you can explain everything in 40k by bending the rules a bit. I'm not saying that their depiction can't be made to fit canon, or in case of Slaanesh worship before Slaanesh being born already fitting canon very well. I'm saying that this wasn't the author's intention and that he screwed up when writing it.

I'd say in your whole post your forget one factor - Slaanesh is a god shaped by Eldar/Human emotions. As such, the way he will manifest to his followers, even if they are not humanoid, will be influenced by the emotions he is created from. Now of course it's is debateable on how important this is, but I'd say it is.

ashc
04-08-2010, 14:15
Has anyone considered just how long it may have taken for those storms to clear after Slaanesh's birth? I mean it could have taken hundreds of years as the warp storms cleared, perhaps outwards from the Eye of Terror (or inwards? - interesting! Eye of Terror could be a big chaos plughole in the great bath that is time and space!) such a huge space/warp/time rupture like that would screw some things up, and I would imagine that the clearing didn't happen all at the click of someone's fingers. I really can't see it being Slaanesh being born one day and then the very next the big E looked up and said 'skies are clear, fly my marines, fly!'

Apologies if I am going all wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

DoomedFuture
04-08-2010, 15:13
Why not have the Dark Age of Technology humans and the Eldar be the same?

Ties a lot of ends together.

Lars Porsenna
04-08-2010, 17:00
I always figured the idea of a galaxy spanning Eldar empire to be a bit of hyperbole and Eldar propoganda: the actual empire I think was quite small, basically the terretory covered by the Eye of Terror. While in the past the Eldar Empire might have been much larger, that might have been an exagerration based on scattered and far-flung outposts or colonies. Humans could easily have moved into the blank spaces in the middle, with the Eldar not caring (they have the Webway), and too pre-occupied with their own crapulance to even notice. The idea then of the more militant craftworlds trying to "reclaim their empire" might be a bit of revisionism on their part, or a desire to carve out a segment of the galaxy exclusively for the Eldar.

Damon.

Clockwork-Knight
04-08-2010, 17:07
How many worlds are there in the Eye of Terror? How many worlds were not destroyed like Caliban when the Eye of Terror formed? How many impossible worlds have suddenly pop out of existence when the Ocularis Terribus came into existence?
Nobody knows, and nobody will therefore know how many worlds the Eldar inhabitated before the fall of their great civilisation. Could have been less than a hundred, more than a million, or anything inbetween.

Unlike on our world, where territory is important, the black space between stars is irrelevant, and not a sign for how big a stellar empire is. Only the numbers of world directly under control matters.

RunepriestRidcully
04-08-2010, 17:24
Well, there is the boobsnake/fiend of Slaanesh which I think would appeal to the Laer. Somehow merging its shape with that of a KoS would be a way to go. I could have accepted the statues themselves being polymorphous, changing themselves from snakelike into bovine-headed humanoids as the Marines concentrated their attention on them.


Why would the marines of the pre heresy Emperor's children be attracted by Hermaphrodite Minotaurs? unless the entire legion was Bi and into Bestiality already, (After conversion to Slannesh yes, but before?) whilst Slannesh may offer you your darkest desires, the pre heresy EC were all already into that stuff. Could it be possible Slannesh likes the hermaphrodite minotaur look and as such all his/her/it's senior daemons adopt the look to gain favour? Might it be possible to convert KOS from minotaur kits?

MarshallSam
04-08-2010, 20:01
And of course lets not forget that the Eldar Empire had almost ceased to exist as an actually functioning whole before the Fall actually happened. There would have been no effective central government or any sort of coherent policy towards other planets/race, expansionist or otherwise.

The Eldars at this stage is pretty much only concerned with doing whatever the individual Eldar wants to do and happy to let all the automation run there Empire for them. So going by the speed (or rather completely lack of) that anything happens in the 40k universe there will likely have been hundreds, if not thousand of years before the actual birth scream of Slaanesh where the Eldar Imperium for all practical purposes didn't really exist and where what would later be known as the Exodites and the Craftworld Eldars would get worried and leave.


I whole heartedly agree. Just because the GW says The Fall caused the birth of Slaneesh and his/hers/its birthcry created the EoT and calmed the warp doesn't mean that it all happened in one foul swoop. The Eldar Empire as a whole was crumbling for a loooong time. I feel that when the Craftworld Eldar refer to The Fall they are refering to the end of it, when Slaneesh was born and all those Eldar where soul sucked into Slaneesh.

I just had a wierd image of Eldrad doing the scene similar to Yoda during the initial part of Order 66 in Episode 3.