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View Full Version : did the thousand sons play a part in the horus heressy?



Jake-Man
01-08-2010, 19:35
so ive just finished reading thousand sons in the horus heressy series..... its amazing. my favourite one so far.

it ends with ahraman discussing the rubric though....

i always assumed he created this after the heressy.... not during....
plus the book kind of makes out that they didnt join with horus. but in some of tyhe artwork in collected visions there is a picture with horus fabius bile a thousand sons sorceror and some kind of deamon etc discussing stuff....

SOOOOOOOOO what happened? did they jpoin horus or just get called trators?

Chem-Dog
01-08-2010, 19:42
Far as I reckon it, TS's were loyal right up until Russ landed on their home planet and started stinking the place up...A situation propogated by Horus. Tzeench offered Magnus a way out...kinda.

Karl MkVI
01-08-2010, 19:47
The final monologue is being told from after the heresy, I believe. e.g; much time has passed between the final chapter, where Magnus descends and says "Welcome to the Planet of Sorcerors." and the final monologue.

negZero
01-08-2010, 21:30
If you count as being using to fight the Space Wolves away from Terra, then yes they played a part in the Heresy.

SharpSilver
01-08-2010, 21:51
They didn't play a direct role in the Battle of Terra, however they did act as a diversion and drew the Wolves away from their ability to come to the Emperor's aid on Terra, albeit inadvertently. They didn't wilfully intend to draw the Wolves to Prospero, it was a fabrication of Horus, and it worked well on his part. Originally Magnus was meant to be brought back to Terra where he, might possibly, have been contained, but not labelled a traitor, and at this point, he was not offered the prospect of so much power by Chaos.

Scalebug
01-08-2010, 22:14
They didn't play a direct role in the Battle of Terra, [..]

They sure did, they were one of the five legions who went there in full force. Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Emperors Children, Death Guard and Thousand sons. Plus smaller forces from the other traitor Legions, presumably.

Lord Nestron
01-08-2010, 22:26
They sure did, they were one of the five legions who went there in full force. Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Emperors Children, Death Guard and Thousand sons. Plus smaller forces from the other traitor Legions, presumably.

There was only 74 of them left so yeah not much to fight with

Horus_Lupercal
01-08-2010, 22:49
what? theres way more than 74 thousand sons.. over a thousand at the end of thousand sons. in the horus heresy collected visions the thousand sons entire legion was at terra. page 336 "even as you recieve this communique the remant of my legion and i are marshalling at the moons of fasdahn-oryx in preperation for the transit to the solar system. we await your orders to move on terra" page 354 "the giant figure of magnus the red glared triumphantly about him with his one watchful eye before ordering the mage-warriors of the thousand sons to hurl their spells of death and destruction."

Lord Nestron
01-08-2010, 23:05
what? theres way more than 74 thousand sons.. over a thousand at the end of thousand sons. in the horus heresy collected visions the thousand sons entire legion was at terra. page 336 "even as you recieve this communique the remant of my legion and i are marshalling at the moons of fasdahn-oryx in preperation for the transit to the solar system. we await your orders to move on terra" page 354 "the giant figure of magnus the red glared triumphantly about him with his one watchful eye before ordering the mage-warriors of the thousand sons to hurl their spells of death and destruction."

My bad I read it wrong. Even 1242 - 74 (those fell under the flesh change) = 1168 at best. This is with no injurys or anything. That is a very small number considering what size the other legions had

SharpSilver
01-08-2010, 23:35
My bad I read it wrong. Even 1242 - 74 (those fell under the flesh change) = 1168 at best. This is with no injurys or anything. That is a very small number considering what size the other legions had

This was what I meant. The involvement of the Thousand Sons, if any, did not really influence the outcome of the Battle of Terra. Therefore the Legion did not play a major direct role in the battle. Most sources I've come across don't signify any mention of them at all.

Karl MkVI
02-08-2010, 00:37
This was what I meant. The involvement of the Thousand Sons, if any, did not really influence the outcome of the Battle of Terra. Therefore the Legion did not play a major direct role in the battle. Most sources I've come across don't signify any mention of them at all.

well, one account I read (I believe it was a white dwarf account, which broke down the siege into five stages. never turned up anywhere else. in the 250s-260s i believe.) says that Horus sends them forth to break down the Ultimate Gate with their sorcery. so they would have played a pretty big part, if things had gone according to Horus' plan... ;)

I believe one account (may be the same one) has them down as being very useful in the siege; summoning daemons and the like. but that may actually be the Word Bearers. memory fails me somewhat.

either way, they are explicitly mentioned in Collected Visions, as Horus_Lupercal has said. I do however accept that the extent of their involvement (and, arguably more importantly, the influence of it) is of course debatable.

Londinium
02-08-2010, 00:52
I get the feeling that we may well see the Thousand Sons retconned out of the Siege of Terra. If you read a Thousand Sons they are loyal until the end and Ahriman appears to be loyal after the Battle of Prospero. Ahriman seems to convey a belief that the Wolves had poisoned the Emperor against them and it was all a massive mistake and Magnus had led them into it.

Given this the TS turning up on Terra really doesn't fit because even at the point that Magnus fights Russ and then gives himself to Tzeentch he does it begrudingly and to rescue his legion, not because he really has decided to follow Tzeentch as a disciple. So to see Ahriman, Magnus and co turn up at Terra and start razing the place doesn't fit in with their characterisation in the book.

While Magnus and Ahriman may well have been corrupted in the 10,000 ish years since Prospero, in the immediate aftermath they still appear to be loyalists if with a massive chip on their shoulders and a desire for revenge against the Wolves. Ahriman especially.

Karl MkVI
02-08-2010, 00:58
I get the feeling that we may well see the Thousand Sons retconned out of the Siege of Terra. If you read a Thousand Sons they are loyal until the end and Ahriman appears to be loyal after the Battle of Prospero. Ahriman seems to convey a belief that the Wolves had poisoned the Emperor against them and it was all a massive mistake and Magnus had led them into it.

Given this the TS turning up on Terra really doesn't fit because even at the point that Magnus fights Russ and then gives himself to Tzeentch he does it begrudingly and to rescue his legion, not because he really has decided to follow Tzeentch as a disciple. So to see Ahriman, Magnus and co turn up at Terra and start razing the place doesn't fit in with their characterisation in the book.

While Magnus and Ahriman may well have been corrupted in the 10,000 ish years since Prospero, in the immediate aftermath they still appear to be loyalists if with a massive chip on their shoulders and a desire for revenge against the Wolves. Ahriman especially.

fair point. however, consider the notion that a "full corruption" of Magnus may have occured while he was on the planet of sorcerors, before he revealed himself to his sons (they were there for a while before he made his presence felt).

Londinium
02-08-2010, 01:05
fair point. however, consider the notion that a "full corruption" of Magnus may have occured while he was on the planet of sorcerors, before he revealed himself to his sons (they were there for a while before he made his presence felt).

True but Ahriman definitely hasn't been corrupted at that point and the Ahriman/Magnus relationship is testy to say the least. Ahriman is already getting angry and losing faith in Magnus during the Battle of Prospero and we all know what happens after the Rubric. If there is a Thousand Sons detachment on Terra, I wouldn't be surprised if it was just Magnus and they shift the Rubric occuring into the Heresy thus splintering the legion before Terra. I just can't see Ahriman doing it based on his characterisation in ATS, Magnus maybe but that would require Tzeentch doing a total number on his personality in the years between Prospero and Terra. If seeing the Wolves tear Prospero to pieces didn't turn him traitor, I find it hard to find something Tzeentch could have said that would have turned him from being a misguided loyalist to a traitor on the level of Angron or Mortarion.

Griffindale
02-08-2010, 03:31
Tzeench is the changer of ways. I think its ironic that Magnus and Ahriman could still be striving to be loyal in some way even to this day, but all of their plots and misguided attempts at overthrowing or usurping chaos are forever thwarted by Tzeench and turned to chaos' own ends.

randian
02-08-2010, 04:07
While Magnus and Ahriman may well have been corrupted in the 10,000 ish years since Prospero, in the immediate aftermath they still appear to be loyalists if with a massive chip on their shoulders and a desire for revenge against the Wolves. Ahriman especially.
Magnus became a Daemon Prince immediately after the Battle of Prospero. Surely that causes automatic and complete corruption, no matter how fair and benevolent he appeared when he first greeted his Sons on the Planet of the Sorcerors.

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 06:37
Magnus became a Daemon Prince immediately after the Battle of Prospero. Surely that causes automatic and complete corruption, no matter how fair and benevolent he appeared when he first greeted his Sons on the Planet of the Sorcerors.

No, we don't know what Magnus is immediately after the battle. Unless I missed something big (known to happen every third or fourth century :angel: ), Magnus is never once described as anything but a being of light.

My reading of the description is that his physical form has been destroyed and his soul is floating around.

Rat Catcher
02-08-2010, 06:48
Ahriman gets support of other powerful Thousand Son psykers for his rubric after Magnus ascends to Daemon Prince.

So I would imagine he doesn't ascend for some-time, unless they've changed the rubric, and Magnus' ascension to being much more recent. I had the feeling they happened a bit later, not during the Heresy itself.

Son of Sanguinius
02-08-2010, 06:59
Ahriman gets support of other powerful Thousand Son psykers for his rubric after Magnus ascends to Daemon Prince.

So I would imagine he doesn't ascend for some-time, unless they've changed the rubric, and Magnus' ascension to being much more recent. I had the feeling they happened a bit later, not during the Heresy itself.

I agree, though at the end of Thousand Sons the passage of time is a tad confusing. Then again, empyrean ex machina.

Karl MkVI
02-08-2010, 11:48
I believe Magnus is described (or at least implied) as a daemon prince during the Siege of Terra in Collected Visions. Angron certainly is, and the others are described in much the same way as Angron (with numerous variations of course, owing to their differences as primarchs), thus it seems to make sense.

imo, that final monologue by Ahriman in A Thousand Sons is from a long time after Magnus appearing at the end of the story. to me, it seems pretty obvious. further to that, it gives no indication as to when the Rubric takes place; theres no reason to assume that it has been/will be moved, nor that it will, or 'needs' to be.

Londinium
02-08-2010, 13:00
Thats interesting because it seemed to me like the epilogue on the Planet of the Sorcerors was shortly after the Battle of Prospero. They all get swept up by Magnus and deposited on the planet and then after a number of days/weeks/month wandering around somewhere that reminds me of Davy Jones' Locker in POTC Magnus reveals himself to them. It certainly didn't feel like years to me.

N0-1_H3r3
02-08-2010, 15:57
Thats interesting because it seemed to me like the epilogue on the Planet of the Sorcerors was shortly after the Battle of Prospero. They all get swept up by Magnus and deposited on the planet and then after a number of days/weeks/month wandering around somewhere that reminds me of Davy Jones' Locker in POTC Magnus reveals himself to them. It certainly didn't feel like years to me.
Well, the Planet of Sorcerers is, iirc, in the Eye of Terror, and thus not so strictly bound by the laws of time and space.

Beyond that, while the Rubric ritual is known to take place after the Heresy, we don't know how long Ahriman spent preparing for it - it might've taken decades to gather enough allies, research the details of the spell and arrange for the appropriate conditions.

Karl MkVI
02-08-2010, 20:42
Thats interesting because it seemed to me like the epilogue on the Planet of the Sorcerors was shortly after the Battle of Prospero. They all get swept up by Magnus and deposited on the planet and then after a number of days/weeks/month wandering around somewhere that reminds me of Davy Jones' Locker in POTC Magnus reveals himself to them. It certainly didn't feel like years to me.

sorry; i may not have been clear in my post. what i meant was; the epilogue on the planet of sorcerors is indeed a number of days/weeks/months after the Razing of Prospero. but the final monologue, from Ahriman, regarding the rubric (written in italics), is a lot later.

all imo, of course.

:) again, apologies. does that make more sense?

randian
03-08-2010, 02:44
Unless I missed something big (known to happen every third or fourth century :angel: ), Magnus is never once described as anything but a being of light. My reading of the description is that his physical form has been destroyed and his soul is floating around.
1) It's fairly clear in the fluff that even the most powerful psyker cannot maintain coherence in the warp without a body.

2) Destruction of your physical body is a side effect of daemonic ascension.

3) Since Magnus' body was not destroyed when they left Prospero, Tzeentch must have destroyed his body.

4) Permanent spiritual coherence is another side effect of ascension.

Ergo, Magnus must be a Daemon Prince when he first appears after leaving Prospero. Why his legion doesn't immediately sense the taint of Chaos on him, and why proximity to him isn't doing nasty things to their bodies, is unclear. It could be an oversight by the writer, because Space Marines do feel it in their bodies when they're near a daemon even though they are usually not incapacitated by it like humans are. It could be misdirection by Magnus, but I'm not sure how since really powerful daemons usually can't hide their nature.

Londinium
03-08-2010, 03:25
1) It's fairly clear in the fluff that even the most powerful psyker cannot maintain coherence in the warp without a body.

2) Destruction of your physical body is a side effect of daemonic ascension.

3) Since Magnus' body was not destroyed when they left Prospero, Tzeentch must have destroyed his body.

4) Permanent spiritual coherence is another side effect of ascension.

Ergo, Magnus must be a Daemon Prince when he first appears after leaving Prospero. Why his legion doesn't immediately sense the taint of Chaos on him, and why proximity to him isn't doing nasty things to their bodies, is unclear. It could be an oversight by the writer, because Space Marines do feel it in their bodies when they're near a daemon even though they are usually not incapacitated by it like humans are. It could be misdirection by Magnus, but I'm not sure how since really powerful daemons usually can't hide their nature.

Not necessarily. In the book a giant tower erupts out of the ground and Magnus reveals himself to his sons. He could easily be within the tower and projecting himself outwards as an astral projection. He does it a number of times in the book, he's described as a being of pure light at times well before the Battle of Prospero, and is heavily hinted (if not outright stated, I forgot it's been a while since I read it) as second only to the Big E in terms of psychic ability. Even Ahriman a relative pipsqueak compared to Magnus has the ability of seperating his spirit from his body as judged by his smackdown on Othere Wyrdmake during the Battle of Prospero. You forget just how psychically powerful your average Thousand Son is compared to even other Astartes.

Merus
03-08-2010, 03:31
I prefer the retcon, actually; in that they now don't take part in the Siege of Terra. The way they've recently been represented in A Thousand Sons is far more tragic.

I think it was a positive change.

As for Ahrimans rubric -- didn't he have to make pacts with a myriad of Deamons and gain the help of some of the other most powerful Thousand Son psykers just to perform it?

Could he have whipped up something that potent, and struck so many demonic pacts so quickly?

Londinium
03-08-2010, 03:46
According to Lexicanum, the Rubric was cast only by Thousand Son 'Sorcerors' and was so powerful that even daemons within the warp shied away from it's effects. It is Lexicanum though so take it with a pinch of salt even though it's properly sourced.

Son of Sanguinius
03-08-2010, 06:09
1) It's fairly clear in the fluff that even the most powerful psyker cannot maintain coherence in the warp without a body.

I don't know what fluff you're reading but that is wrong. It is impossible to have an actual body in the warp. The beings of the warp, demons or otherwise, are nothing but energy focusing around a concept. And the most powerful psykers tend to burn through their physical bodies unless engineered to be resistant, like Magnus'.

EDIT: There is one exception. An incredibly powerful psychic, with a will of steel, could probably maintain a physical form in the warp. But even there, that requires maintaining our laws of physics in a dimension where they are largely bendable, all through sheer willpower.


2) Destruction of your physical body is a side effect of daemonic ascension.

No. Certainly a possibility, even a likelihood, but not a certainty. Ascension can also translate as rampant mutation of a body into a form that can only be sustained because of the physics-altering energy of the warp.


3) Since Magnus' body was not destroyed when they left Prospero, Tzeentch must have destroyed his body.

This is entirely possible and yet completely unprovable at this point, for the reasons I've given above.


4) Permanent spiritual coherence is another side effect of ascension.

Not in the least. On a whim, a god can banish the consciousness of a demon.


Ergo, Magnus must be a Daemon Prince when he first appears after leaving Prospero. Why his legion doesn't immediately sense the taint of Chaos on him, and why proximity to him isn't doing nasty things to their bodies, is unclear. It could be an oversight by the writer, because Space Marines do feel it in their bodies when they're near a daemon even though they are usually not incapacitated by it like humans are. It could be misdirection by Magnus, but I'm not sure how since really powerful daemons usually can't hide their nature.

They have no understanding of Chaos. Not even Magnus does. Tzeentch wove his illusions and deceptions carefully, as befitting a master of scheming. Moreover, Magnus and his sons think they understand practically everything, and that incredible level of arrogance only further blinds them to the truth-they are playing with powers they cannot control and they are playing on borrowed time.

As for demons being unable to hide their nature, I have no clue where you got that idea from. Many demons in many situations simply don't want to, and I'd wager that some simply can't, but you can't suggest that they are all incapable of the act. It goes against the very fictional concepts that they are based on and makes no sense.

Karl MkVI
03-08-2010, 07:03
I don't know what fluff you're reading but that is wrong. It is impossible to have an actual body in the warp. The beings of the warp, demons or otherwise, are nothing but energy focusing around a concept. And the most powerful psykers tend to burn through their physical bodies unless engineered to be resistant, like Magnus'.

I think he meant an actual body in the physical realm. an anchor, if you will. however, still untrue; otherwise Warp Entities flat-out wouldn't exist.

N0-1_H3r3
03-08-2010, 07:10
1) It's fairly clear in the fluff that even the most powerful psyker cannot maintain coherence in the warp without a body.
Except for the fact that all Eldar retain coherence and consciousness after death and disembodiment. Its how they used to reincarnate, before Slaanesh was created and started eating all those loose Eldar souls.

Most humans are incapable of this retention of self... but a sufficiently potent pseudo-human psyker could well possess the ability to retain coherent and aware without needing a physical body.

AndrewGPaul
03-08-2010, 08:01
I prefer the retcon, actually; in that they now don't take part in the Siege of Terra.

That's not decided yet, unless Horus Heresy: The Seige of Terra was published and I missed it. :) Since we have no way of knowing when the epilogue on Prospero occurs, you can't say whether or not it occurs before or after the seige. Certainly we know that the Scouring of Prospero takes place quite soon after the Isstvan V massacre, and that there were several years between that and the Seige.

In fact, does Magnus attempt to inform the Emperor of Horus' treachery after the initial virus-bombing of Isstav 3, or after the subsequent Drop Zone Massacre on Isstvan 5? Because there was an 18-month gap between the two events. Plenty of time for the Space Wolves to attack Prospero before the Drop Zone Massacre.

Karl MkVI
03-08-2010, 13:34
In fact, does Magnus attempt to inform the Emperor of Horus' treachery after the initial virus-bombing of Isstav 3, or after the subsequent Drop Zone Massacre on Isstvan 5? Because there was an 18-month gap between the two events. Plenty of time for the Space Wolves to attack Prospero before the Drop Zone Massacre.

18 months? i think not. which source did you get that notion from? there was a roughly three month battle on Isstvan III, after which the traitors transferred straight to Isstvan V. add on a few weeks at most (6, if i remember correctly from Fulgrim), then Isstvan V begins. also, Prospero fell before the end of the war on Isstvan III, and even before the virus bombing if I remember correctly; Galaxy in Flames tells us as much.