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View Full Version : Is there a link between the C'tan and the Assassin temples?



drmarco
02-08-2010, 15:11
Long post, thanks if you stick with it though!

A recent thread about the C'tan phase sword has sparked some debate...

See here for more on the weapon itself... (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268661)

But Stonerhino mentioned something in this debate that got me thinking...


The first C'Tan reference was in Codex Imperialis iIrc. But they where not given any more info untill the C'Tan phase sword and Cypher's phase knife. Then the info given in the Necon codex.

With very little information on them we have a few "Knowns". For one, they function simular to a warscythe but not as powerful. Per the 40k rules for them. And two, that they are C'Tan/Necron in origin. The Deciever's reaction when he see one in the short in the "Shadow Games" section of the Necron codex. Lastly third, they have the C'Tan name on them.

This leaves us with only a few ways that they have come to exist.
1: They are inactive Necron weapons salvaged from an inactive Tomb.
2: They were inactive and the Admech has found some way to power them with some limits.
3: The Deciever, has his hand somehow into the Callidus Temple and helped create the blades. His ego could not help but call it a C'Tan phase sword.

Personaly I would go with option three. The wording in the short story can be read as "One's children come home" as the assassin. And the "When they bring gifts" can be the sword. He also knew about the Polymorphine the assassin had used. While I can see the same text saying the sword is the child and the polymorphine filled assassin the gift. It seems odd as the sword could not have brought the "Gift".


This raises a very interesting issue...Do all the assassin temples in someway reflect the C'tan's meddling?

When we look at the parallels -

The Deceiver (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deceiver): Clues in the name - often cited as changing form, and the hallmark features of the Callidus (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Callidus_Temple) temple? Polymorphine - used to literally change the assassin's physical form, and allow them to 'whisper in ears', and succeed through cunning (the English translation of their Latinate name) - armed with a C'tan-based weapon in their phased sword.

The Outsider (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Outsider): Now the necron interest in pariah's is well known, but again when you look at the essential nature of the temple's subjects and their preferred method of combat, the Culexus temple (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Culexus_Temple) (which incidentally is the only not based on Terrra, but is based on a planet which 'orbits no sun'...hmmmm....) does seem to mimic the Outsider's traits.
The Animus Speculum is described thus: 'warp energy separated from its targets by the null aura of the Culexus is held in this device and then unleashed. Indeed, the weapon becomes more and more potent when within the vicinity of psykers. The device fires bolts of 'negative psychic energy' and drains the power of nearby psykers to bolster its power'. The descriptions of the Outsider devouring the life essence of his fellow C'tan in order to achieve greater power are well established.

Nightbringer (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Night_Bringer): Death, incarnate. A spectre of death who's very appearance is implanted into other races subconciousness as their destroyer. C.F. Eversor (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Eversor_Temple)...from the Latin, meaning Obliterator or Destroyer, these assassins specialise in nothing but the utter obliteration of all opposition.

Void Dragon: Now - here's where the wheels start to come off - the link between the Void Dragon and Adeptus Mechanicus is well established. Furthermore, the Vindicare - coming from the latin word for punisher/avenger - and to a lesser extent the other two known temples (Venenum and Vanus) don't obviously link to the Void Dragon...apart from a very tenous link with the letter 'V' at the starts of their names :D

One could also argue that the same comparisons could be made between, say, the temples and the various chaos gods.

Any thoughts from the Warseer good and great on this?
Just wishful thinking, or a limited number of 'things' that can be themes?
Anyone else know of any fluff that might support this crackpot notion?
:D

As someone with a love of 40k's background, I love the patterns like this that sometimes occur - but would love to throw this open to debate by some equally background obsessed folks!

Cheers,

Marco

Iuris
02-08-2010, 15:21
I think you're reading too much into the 4v4 setup. You could indeed as well allign the temples to the chaos gods (Khorne-rage-Eversor, Tzeentch-deceit-Callidus, etc.). Not to forget there's more than 4 temples...

I think there are only two connections: the Callidus using a C'tan artefact and the Cullexus pariahs being a product of the C'tan counter-psyker gene engineering. Anything beyond that would be a bit beyond.

Lord Damocles
02-08-2010, 15:40
I think you're reading too much into the 4v4 setup.
I agree with Iuris.

There's another post around here somewhere which draws comparisons between the four [remaining] C'tan, the four [remaining/not yet created] Eldar gods, and the four [major] Chaos gods...



I think there are only two connections: the Callidus using a C'tan artefact and the Cullexus pariahs being a product of the C'tan counter-psyker gene engineering. Anything beyond that would be a bit beyond.
There's also Eversor stasis pods apparently being [based on] Necron stasis technology (Deus Ex Mechanicus).



EDIT: I'd also be wary of using Lexicanum as a source for anything. Some of the stuff on there (Necron/C'tan related in particular) is less than accurate.

drmarco
02-08-2010, 15:42
As I said, I do recognise it may be simply seeing patterns where none exist (oooh look, that cloud looks like nurgle!), I mean Imperial assassins (in their current, temple based form) predate the C'tan in every regard but the name of one of their weapons.

It's not a question predicated on the 4v4 concept, more the fact that the pariah links and the huge concordance between Callidus and the Deceiver archetype. But thanks for your input!

Marco

Iuris
02-08-2010, 16:27
As I said, I do recognise it may be simply seeing patterns where none exist (oooh look, that cloud looks like nurgle!)
It's what human brain was evolved to be - we may have got too good at it and need the scientific method to keep us grounded in reality :)

negZero
02-08-2010, 23:04
Why is it that people believe that the C'tan are behind (almost)everything?

Alfhedil
02-08-2010, 23:12
As I said, I do recognise it may be simply seeing patterns where none exist (oooh look, that cloud looks like nurgle!), I mean Imperial assassins (in their current, temple based form) predate the C'tan in every regard but the name of one of their weapons.

Marco

That's actually impossible, seeing as how the C'Tan were around before the War In Heaven, which saw the creation of the lesser races(Eldar, Orks, Humans) to fight the soul-less abominations of the C'Tan.

Lord Damocles
02-08-2010, 23:23
I think drmarco means in real world background chronology terms.


The Assassin Temples were detailed in Codex: Assassins (late 2nd ed.), while the C'tan were not fleshed out until Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.).
I'm not sure if the first mention of the C'tan in Codex Imperialis (2nd ed.) pre-dates the naming of the Assassin Temples (certainly the rules don't make any distiction between different Temples).

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-08-2010, 05:05
Why is it that people believe that the C'tan are behind (almost)everything?

It's not just the fans, GW went through a period (or still is depending on your point of view) where since the C'tans needed some sort of justification for just being dropped into the game from nowhere but supposedly being these big bad ancient gods (that we can play with on the table?:wtf:) then suddenly they had to be shoehorned into every single piece of fluff where there was even the most remote possibility they would fit (and some where they didn't).

It's just the standard GW approach of "this race is the most awesome thing ever", only it's even more hamfisted than usual as it had to be retrospectively retconned into place.

AndrewGPaul
03-08-2010, 07:28
I think drmarco means in real world background chronology terms.


The Assassin Temples were detailed in Codex: Assassins (late 2nd ed.), while the C'tan were not fleshed out until Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.).
I'm not sure if the first mention of the C'tan in Codex Imperialis (2nd ed.) pre-dates the naming of the Assassin Temples (certainly the rules don't make any distiction between different Temples).

"Callidus" as a temple name first appeared in the Ian Watson short story "The Alien Beast Within", published in the Deathwing anthology, which predates 2nd edition 40K by quite a margin. At that point, however, all Imperial assassins used polymorphine (and, frankly whatever else they liked - the miniature at the time is armed roughly like an Eversor), and the different temples weren't implied to be different specialities as such.

Born Again
03-08-2010, 12:57
I think you're reading too much into the 4v4 setup. You could indeed as well allign the temples to the chaos gods (Khorne-rage-Eversor, Tzeentch-deceit-Callidus, etc.). Not to forget there's more than 4 temples...

I think there are only two connections: the Callidus using a C'tan artefact and the Cullexus pariahs being a product of the C'tan counter-psyker gene engineering. Anything beyond that would be a bit beyond.

This x 10.

The fact that there are more than 4 temples, and of the 4 that have been detailed only 3 can really be linked in any way with the C'Tan, means I wouldn't be jumping to any conclusions on this.

drmarco
03-08-2010, 13:30
I think drmarco means in real world background chronology terms.


Indeed I did. And while I realise that the specific temples nomenclature and classification in second edition predates the third edition necron release there was a significant amount of time between these editions.

I understand, therefore, that if there is a link between the two it is one that has been retconned (in what I have to admit was a truly shoe-horned and hamfisted way). But my overall curiosity is more towards where this might develop.

The introduction of the C'tan was clumsy, but they are now an underpinning part of the mythos of 40k, and indeed the background of most of the 'younger' races. They are undoubtedly here to stay.

I was wondering, primarily, if there were any more parallels that existed to support this as a direction for future development.

Deliberate link at the inception of the temples/C'tan? Obviously not, unless a lot of unreleased background development was happening back in second edition that was kept on a back-burner.

But as more and more short stories have occurred in the codex, WD and elsewhere has anyone noticed any other connections?

(and a big cheers to all contributing so far...I'd forgotten all about RT era polymorphine where even independent characters could access it, and assassins tended to work in teams, often wearing a distinctively non-stealthy red sash over their syn-skin!)

Marco