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Stickmonkey
02-08-2010, 17:59
So there's been some buzz elsewhere about GK, and it's been a while for me here so here's some bits and pieces.

Heavy rumors of Jan release. I cannot deny this possibility, but I might be personally inclined to say March, only because some items I expect to be released arent far enough to see how they could be done for Jan release.


Disclaimer: Please remember these are PT notes. These may not be in the final codex.

Release items:

Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.



Boxes:
Storm Raven. obvious choice. Options for BA, GK and ???

TA knights: 5 pack, Paladin upgrades, squad upgrades. Psycannon, NFW, SSTH, banner?

PA knights: 10 pack, justicar upgrades, squad upgrades, extra bits. NFW, psycannon, incinerator, banner?

walker: There have been some rumors of a GK driven walker. I have not personally seen this in any incarnation. However, there is a boxed walker of some type. I suspect this is a dreadnaught box set that will also have bits for BA.

Tank: I have not seen mention of a GK troop transport. Rhino based with psycannon options has been in some PT. I list this as possible, but unlikely, 4 box sets of this size are about par for a release, 5 would be a surprise.



Blisters:
New Stern

New Chaplain?

Justicar upgrade character

Paladin upgrade character

Inquisition character

2 other blisters unknown contents



Other:
Later release of GK themed terrain set? Concepts are out and some "preview" shots are floating around if you hunt. Nothing more I can say on this.



Rule bits, these are very subject to revision, but not for much longer, to hit a Jan/Mar window codex needs to be tied up and sent to printers soon:

NFW lose the changing abilities based on rank of user. standardized to PA NFW is PW with special abilities vs Daemons, TA NFW is FW with same.

Some interesting Psychic abilities. just about all squads have psychic options. Heavy on they disabling side. Enemy psychers beware.

Not a lot of Mech. But quick to deploy.

Corrected Psycannon profile (updated 8-12-2010):
24" A3 AP3 S6, no invul saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.
or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invul saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning)

(updated 8-12-2010): Incinerator, no profile changes noted: S5 AP4 A1 template, no invul or cover saves.

(updated 8-12-2010): GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invul, or cover saves.


Army wide. Daemonic Infestation makes summoned demons less instable?

No allies from/to other Codii. new fodder units in codex. not same as guard units.

New options for Dreadnaughts including libby. psycannon arm. Purge weapon...large pie plate, special abilities include forcing instability test for daemons, including DoC armies, pinning in other armies.

Added 8-3-2010:
The basic GK marine profile looks very similar to a SM sergeant.

The box sets should all be plastic.

I've seen other people posting rumors of a penitent engine style walker, with a PAGK driver...I have absolutely no confirmation of such a beast. However, if GW wanted to avoid the cries of "GK dont have Dreads, it isnt fluffy" that could be a way...

While External Allies rules are gone by all accounts, it does not mean allies in the codex are gone. Inquisition forces ARE present, just not as dominant. And you will recognize others.

A conversation earlier centered around an ability named "Out the Heretic" which could be used against non-daemon forces causing one unit to "count as" daemons.

Some models "may" be on display at GDUK.


Added 8-3-2010:
I've seen "other" sites reporting I said nfw gave wound daemons on 2+. I never said that. Not sure where that is coming from.

From what I know right now nfw will be +2S across the board as now, but pagks will all count as pw, and tagks will all count as fw. Then on top of that, all nfw gain additional capabilities vs daemons. Plus unit leaders may have master crafted nfw...not sure if it's upgrade or standard.


Added 8-9-2010:
GK 2000pt AL from PT:

HQ
GM w Retinue
Named character

Elite
5-man TAGK squad + 2 spec weapons
Dread - unknown configuration

Troop
2x 5-man PAGK squad + 1 spec weapon + razorback
10-man ????? squad + chimera

Fast
Storm Raven

No Heavies



Added 8-9-2010:
The PT list posted was played against 2k of Orks including nobs, mek with kff, lots of boys in trukks, a BW and dread mob. It was C&C with DoW.

GKs held most in reserve.
PAGKS in RB came in turn 2 and moved to boys flank. 1 squad got tarpitted with boys, the other fought thru boys to take objective 1.
unknown unit had HQ attached, spent game trading shots with dread mob until TAGKS arrived to help.
TAGKs TP in turn 4 and later assaulted Dread mob. 4 standing at end of game.
The SR took out one trukk turn 3 and the bw turn 5. Dread and HQ w retinue arrived in it and assaulted Nob mob. wiping it out in 1 round. then started after other boys.

It was reported as a pretty one sided battle. GKs nearly unassailable. GK win with 1 objective and second contested in turn 6. supposedly orks were close to 4:1 outnumbering GKs


Added 8-10-2010:
Interesting bit here. Got to see some layout work on the new codex. I'll confirm the rumors of a fleshed out chapter org chart, but it's not your typical SM structure of 10 companies of 100 marines for sure.


All for now.

enjoy

StickMonkey

Chaplain Dionitas
02-08-2010, 18:04
Interesting change on the psycannons. What about "The Shrouding"? It's quite possibly the worst ability GK's have unless you're playing in Apocolypse.

daemonicemission
02-08-2010, 18:24
Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.




I wonder if this leaves the door open for Codex: Inquisition?

Yes, I know the combi-codex has been shot down multiple times, but it seems like it is either that or Inquisition players (the ones who don't take many/any GK or SOB choices) will be really, really sad.

spagunk
02-08-2010, 18:26
Hmmm...wonder why GW chose to relate BA to Grey Knights. They hinted to this in the BA codex but why specifically BA given their reclusive nature? Perhaps this codex may shed some light on this.

Many thanks stickmonkey.

Rabid Bunny 666
02-08-2010, 18:30
Hopefully this is true as it could herald a Sisters of Battle codex sooner, shame I plumped for buying the metals.

edit:


Hmmm...wonder why GW chose to relate BA to Grey Knights. They hinted to this in the BA codex but why specifically BA given their reclusive nature? Perhaps this codex may shed some light on this.

Many thanks stickmonkey.

Probably because a Force Weapon arm and a Nemesis Force Weapon arm could be the same, the flying vehicle would fit nicely with the rapid insertion that GK have to do to combat Daemons

CitizenNick
02-08-2010, 18:36
Army wide. Daemonic Infestation makes summoned demons less instable?

...forcing instability test for daemons, including DoC armies, pinning in other armies.



So they're bringing back daemonic instability? Presently there are no rules for it in 5th.

de Selby
02-08-2010, 18:41
Any clue if GK terminator squad leaders (whatever they are now called) are still able to take psycannons/incinerators as an upgrade? I've got to pull the arms off mine if not...

spagunk
02-08-2010, 19:06
Hopefully this is true as it could herald a Sisters of Battle codex sooner, shame I plumped for buying the metals.

edit:



Probably because a Force Weapon arm and a Nemesis Force Weapon arm could be the same, the flying vehicle would fit nicely with the rapid insertion that GK have to do to combat Daemons

But why BA? Given the access to ancient technology, wouldn't a DA tie in make more sense? I suppose that it was a matter of marketing but still.

stevegill
02-08-2010, 19:42
But why BA? Given the access to ancient technology, wouldn't a DA tie in make more sense? I suppose that it was a matter of marketing but still.

I'm not sure it's so much about access to ancient tech as opposed to both GK and BA having access to tech that other SMs have never had (or at least not yet).

BAs often seem to get tech that hasn't been authorised for other chapters and the GKs always get whatever they want.

Kroot Lord
02-08-2010, 20:10
I think it's good also to add some diversity between Space Marine armies. Space Wolves have two dozen of separate units from Codex: Ultramarines/Space Marines; Dark Angels have the Deathwing and the Ravenwing (albeit, either can now be taken by C: SM); Black Templars have Land Raider Crusaders as dedicated transports (and it used to be BT LRC specific, but oh well). Blood Angels also have a dozen different units from C: SM, but for some reason GW seemed to want to differentiate them even more from the standard Space Marines.

Now, to me, personally, this would mean that Games Workshop is aiming to make every chapter more "stand apart" and "special". Within a few years they'll have done both Black Templars and Dark Angels, and I'm pretty sure they too will have very specific units that none of the other chapters have.

Also, dual kits are in general good for the company as they'll be able to sell more of them to different players!

Hankyaku
02-08-2010, 20:11
Please don't condemn the GKs to use as ancient technology as DAs currently use. :D

Kroot Lord: Actually DA only has deathwing termies as unique - not mentioning the SW Wolf Guard - and the interrogator-chaplain (nearly never used), but BT also has sword brethren, the Marshall etc. I think these chapters are in fact quite divergent from vanilla SM counterparts. (Don't miss however that SM have thunderfire cannons, while others don't.) Frankly I would've been happy if the SM unique chars would change a bit more on the FOC, or would give additional units to make a chapter army more unique.

Irbian
02-08-2010, 20:13
So there's been some buzz elsewhere about GK, and it's been a while for me here so here's some bits and pieces.

How this fits with your previous info? There is something that fall down? :)


Heavy rumors of Jan release. I cannot deny this possibility, but I might be personally inclined to say March, only because some items I expect to be released arent far enough to see how they could be done for Jan release.


What about first wave jan, second wave march?



Boxes:
Storm Raven. obvious choice. Options for BA, GK and ???


Dark angels?



TA knights: 5 pack, Paladin upgrades, squad upgrades. Psycannon, NFW, SSTH, banner?

Is the banner a rumour or a educated guess? :D



walker: There have been some rumors of a GK driven walker. I have not personally seen this in any incarnation. However, there is a boxed walker of some type. I suspect this is a dreadnaught box set that will also have bits for BA.

Chaplain/libby dreadnought?




Tank: I have not seen mention of a GK troop transport. Rhino based with psycannon options has been in some PT. I list this as possible, but unlikely, 4 box sets of this size are about par for a release, 5 would be a surprise.


Sorry, what means PT?



Rule bits, these are very subject to revision, but not for much longer, to hit a Jan/Mar window codex needs to be tied up and sent to printers soon:

Anything about artificer armour?



No allies from/to other Codii. new fodder units in codex. not same as guard units.


Any guess?

Thank you very much, is very nice to see some movements in the GK size

Kroot Lord
02-08-2010, 20:21
Second wave in March would seem way too soon, considering how long the previous second waves have taken to be released. Normally it's at least half a year, if not more (Daemons, for instance) before the second wave is released.

Codices is the correct spelling of codex, plural. "Codex" comes from the Latin "book", of which the plural is "codices". Just so everbody who reads this post will, hopefully, know, and, even more hopefully, will also use in the future :)

I really am not sure about the new cannon fodder units. Seems exactly the opposite of what Grey Knights would use, considering they are more of a "one versus a thousand" chapter, rather than "one versus a thousand + some cannon fodder". Also, considering they'd be "fodder", it's implied that they are untrained, meaning they'll be easily possessed, resulting in an even larger Daemonic Infestation!

stevegill
02-08-2010, 20:37
I guess 'fodder' in a GK army would be really hard & well equipped ISTs.

Stickmonkey
02-08-2010, 21:02
With regard to the "fodder" units. Dont mistake my use of the term for them being worthless or untrained. But compared to a GK...yes they would be fodder.

I did not have the CSM book near me, but I thought summoned daemons in CSM did still have an instability rule? Regardless this Purge weapon has a special ability to cause it.
The infestation rule as described depended on some form of instability for certain daemonic units. I dont have any other info on it. Like I said, the rules info I have is subject to change.

Another bit I missed is chaos icons do not function within X" of GK units...this is GK only units not other units included in the army list. So GK in TA, AA, or PA. Not sure of GK vehicles or walkers. I think this is tied to the hoods.

Of note compared to prior posts, gone are any references to or imagery of Jetbike riding GK. I'm disappointed by this, as I think a unit of GK on jetbikes would have been pretty cool. Expecially since they were supposed to be optionally fast attack or could take a unit upgrade to an elites slot.

Cheers.

PS: Am aware of the Codices correct usage. but add a p and an e and you've got a bit of armor... :) Codii is not a word at all, but if the meaning is conveyed in context, does it make much more of an issue than lol or OMG? :P

Hankyaku
02-08-2010, 21:03
Speaking of releases. What about DE and Crons? DE are in for autumn, but if GK come in Jan, then what about Crons? Next April???

MajorWesJanson
02-08-2010, 21:10
Speaking of releases. What about DE and Crons? DE are in for autumn, but if GK come in Jan, then what about Crons? Next April???

DE are November. It seems unlikely that GK will be January, as that would put 40K books back to back. I'd think Feb, then April/May for Necrons.

Khanaris
02-08-2010, 21:27
How much of this is concrete vs. wish-listing? It makes sense that, were Grey Knights to be rereleased, some existing sets would be remade and others added. But I have heard nothing reliable that any of them will be.

BramGaunt
02-08-2010, 21:29
I just want to add that someone told me that he knew about GK in january. I never got any info from him so far, but he's a trustworthy person and I know him to be in touch with some wise people. Enjoy with salt.

Justicar Valius
02-08-2010, 21:33
Thank you very much Stickymokey for this.

On the loss of jetbikes I am sad that they won't be here because they sounded cool, but a good friend plays DA, might have been painful when I told him.

Starchild
02-08-2010, 21:33
Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm really starting to get fed up with all the power armour. I know it's only a rumour at this stage. Yes, I'm sure Grey Knights will sell well, that Grey Knights will be popular, and that the models will be absolutely stunning... indeed, everyone and their pet Grynx will play Grey Knights. But do we really need more Space Marines?

With the Grey Knights supposedly being scattered all over the Imperium, can they really muster the numbers for company-level battles? The fluff says they loan out individual squads to leaders of the Ordo Malleus. They're supposed to be among the rarest sights on the battlefield. But wait! Now you can field an entire army of them all at once! You can even collect 10,000 points worth and have a Grey Knight super battle! :eek:

I think GW would have been better off sticking to the actual Inquisition, where more of the grit and character in 40k is to be found. But no, everything you have been told is a lie. Grey Knights will outnumber the First Founding chapters in tournaments all over 21st century Terra. :(

As for the "fodder" unit, I think they'll end up like the Bretonnian Men at Arms in 6th and 7th ed. Fantasy: why use the peons, when you can take the shinier, far more powerful knights? :eyebrows:

MadCowCrazy
02-08-2010, 21:34
Sorry, what means PT?


Play Testing, when they play games to try out the new rules to determine if they need to be revised.

Anything on more on Inquisitors? or special characters?
Mystics? board wide psychic hood?

Have you heard anything about Sisters of Battle? Any hints at all which army might be after GKs?

All of the DH and WH units have been reduced to blisters so this should mean Sisters should be soon after GK. Any info on maybe a Sisters or Inquisition ally codex?

Azazyll
02-08-2010, 21:41
Codices is the correct spelling of codex, plural. "Codex" comes from the Latin "book", of which the plural is "codices". Just so everbody who reads this post will, hopefully, know, and, even more hopefully, will also use in the future :)


I was about to type to the same effect. It helps when you remember that in classical Latin C was always hard, so the plural of a word ending in X makes more sense. think codikes (and, for that matter, kikero)

On the January release, many have hinted all over that December may be more interesting this year, as it was in days of yore (or, rather, ten years ago)

CitizenNick
02-08-2010, 21:46
I did not have the CSM book near me, but I thought summoned daemons in CSM did still have an instability rule? Regardless this Purge weapon has a special ability to cause it.
The infestation rule as described depended on some form of instability for certain daemonic units. I dont have any other info on it. Like I said, the rules info I have is subject to change.


No, they don't have instability anymore which is why I thouhgt it was stange that you said it. But like you said, it's early yet.

I really wonder how they're going to balance this list against daemons. I mean, it seems odd that if I'm playing a Daemon army and I could face someone that plays an anti-daemon army.

It's like if you're an IG player and an opponent shows up with "Codex:Anti-Imperial Guard". :wtf:

DigitsDavid
02-08-2010, 21:52
I can only pray that the "fodder" will at last be plastic stormies!

Azazyll
02-08-2010, 21:52
But do we really need more Space Marines?

Yes.

They wouldn't push space marines if they didn't sell better than everything else. And it makes sense - they're easier to paint and cheaper to buy (on the army wide scale). They define 40k to the vast majority of people familiar with it. So yes, despite the whining on warseer, there will always be new space marines every year.

And to say that this is silly because grey knights are supposed to be rare (exceedingly so) is likewise silly: the same could be said of space marines or eldar. Most people playing fantasy and science fiction games don't want the game to be ordinary, that's why they're playing science fiction and fantasy games. So what if a hundred players play gray knights? So what if there are a hundred armies with Marneus Calgar in them? It's fun to pretend to be exceptional. That's what makes it escapist.

I for one am really hopeful that we get the stormraven in the first wave, as well as dreadnoughts with force weapon arms (a combined kit with BA may be too much to hope for, but would be awesome). I do wish there was some kind of rule to take just one squad of grey knights, but, background wise, the most famous grey knight auxiliary force was an entire company to banish Angron in the first Armageddon War. And from a rules mechanics perspective, I see why they don't want mix and match codices. Doesn't mean you can't do so with an agreeable friend, though.

narcolepticltd
02-08-2010, 21:52
Sorry for the rant, but I'm really starting to get fed up with all the power armour. I know it's only a rumour at this stage. Yes, I'm sure Grey Knights will sell well, that Grey Knights will be popular, and that the models will be absolutely stunning... indeed, everyone and their pet Grynx will play Grey Knights. But do we really need more Space Marines?

With the Grey Knights supposedly being scattered all over the Imperium, can they really muster the numbers for company-level battles? The fluff says they loan out individual squads to leaders of the Ordo Malleus. They're supposed to be among the rarest sights on the battlefield. But wait! Now you can field an entire army of them all at once! You can even collect 10,000 points worth and have a Grey Knight super battle! :eek:

I think GW would have been better off sticking to the actual Inquisition, where more of the grit and character in 40k is to be found. But no, everything you have been told is a lie. Grey Knights will outnumber the First Founding chapters in tournaments all over 21st century Terra. :(

As for the "fodder" unit, I think they'll end up like the Bretonnian Men at Arms in 6th and 7th ed. Fantasy: why use the peons, when you can take the shinier, far more powerful knights? :eyebrows:


More space marines? This would just be an update to the codex they are already a part of... more focused on them specifically of course.

As rare and scattered across the universe as the fluff portrays them, no one needs an updated codex to collect 10,000 points of grey knights and have super battles.

Regarding fodder, people who use the DH codex currently for rules on greyknights specifically... already do this by running a GK only list.

The only reason they aren't already seen all over the place is simply due to the decline in interest due to metal models and an outdated codex. I'd agree with you on all points if they weren't already a legal force to play.


I'm curious of the plastic kits... if they will be scaled to the metal models or if they will be 'regular marine' sized. The old metal PAGK's are slightly smaller than plastic marines.

Xeones
02-08-2010, 21:58
I really wonder how they're going to balance this list against daemons. I mean, it seems odd that if I'm playing a Daemon army and I could face someone that plays an anti-daemon army.

It's like if you're an IG player and an opponent shows up with "Codex:Anti-Imperial Guard". :wtf:

Well, the way they did it last time was to give any demonic armies their own buffs to compensate for the buffs they gave witchhunter armies. This was justified by explaining that Gray Knights would only be called in to areas with a strong demonic incursion taking place, so the daemons were more powerful. don't know if they're going to go in a similar vein this time or not, though. :confused:

EDIT:

I'm curious of the plastic kits... if they will be scaled to the metal models or if they will be 'regular marine' sized. The old metal PAGK's are slightly smaller than plastic marines.
No doubt they'll be scaled to current standards.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
02-08-2010, 23:05
The rumours you provide Stickmonkey, are heartening. Thanks for sharing. I personally can't wait for the plastic grey knights and the stormraven.

On the subject of the Plural for Codex. In latin people are correct that the plural would be codicii but it's GW and they don't follow the rules for Latin. The GW plural word for codex is codexes. People may not agree but that is how it is.

Kroot Lord
02-08-2010, 23:12
I'd presume that they wouldn't, necessarily, be more focussed against Daemons, but against Psychic Powers and Invulnerable saves and such. That way they have their strengths against all the codices, but more specifically also against the Daemons who all have Invulnerable save, with only one or two units having an Armour save. Furthermore, Grey Knights could also have a special rule where the Daemon "Psychic Powers" (which aren't exactly the same psychic as the "regular" powers are, rules wise) count as generic powers, so they'd have added benefits against them (Psychic Hood comes to mind).

The Daemons, in turn, can retaliate with the fact that they have a very, very high number of power weapon attacks and rending, which will absolutely obliterate those pathetically sized and extremely expensive Grey Knight squads (5 Grey Knights die just as easily as 5 Space Marines, but will (presumably) cost 1 1/2 times, if not 2 times, as much).

Perhaps a Daemon army will receive X amount of boosts: give one unit +1 Strength, or one unit gets to re-roll Deep Strike (mishap?), one unit gains Furious Charge. The reason for such boosts or upgrades would be that Grey Knights are only utilized when the Warp and the Daemons are at its strongest, ergo, sending better units into the universe.

Kroot Lord
02-08-2010, 23:13
On the subject of the Plural for Codex. In latin people are correct that the plural would be codicii but it's GW and they don't follow the rules for Latin. The GW plural word for codex is codexes. People may not agree but that is how it is.

Cidicii? Really, I think you're wrong about that. Explain your reasoning, if you will.

MadCowCrazy
02-08-2010, 23:30
I'd presume that they wouldn't, necessarily, be more focussed against Daemons, but against Psychic Powers and Invulnerable saves and such.
Vs Psychic Powers is a Witch Hunter/Sisters thing, Id say the GK special should stay with Ignore Inv saves and WH/Sisters stay with Ignore cover and resist psychic powers.


Cidicii? Really, I think you're wrong about that. Explain your reasoning, if you will.

Please, take this discussion in PMs. It has NOTHING to do with this thread. If you want to discus grammar please go into general or some place else.
I dont want to have to sift through page upon page of grammar discussion when I want to read about GK rumours, news and speculations.

Dont get this thread closed before it has even started!

Hrogoff the Destructor
02-08-2010, 23:36
I kind of like the fact Grey Knights are going to be at an advantage against Daemons and CSM. It's like they acknowledged the books were mistakes and need to be purged. :p

Seriously though (okay, maybe I was being serious...), I'm disappointed by the lack of GK jetbikes. Granted, it would have been nearly impossible to pull it off the execution correctly, it was still something I wanted to see.

I'm really excited about squads an psyker abilities along with various squad upgrades. I just hope the GK don't deviate too far from the "norm". It sounds like just about everything concerning their special abilities could be changing.

The Dude
02-08-2010, 23:37
On the loss of jetbikes...

The loss of Jetbikes?

How can you lose something that you never had? Something that was never anything more than the mad ravings of people who invent rumours for fun?

Stickmonkey
02-08-2010, 23:50
The loss of Jetbikes?

How can you lose something that you never had? Something that was never anything more than the mad ravings of people who invent rumours for fun?

With all due respect to you, The Dude, I started that rumor, and it was based on concept art and incomplete model CAD. So not exactly inventing a "rumor for fun"

Some here may not recall that IG used to have jet bikes...jet bikes with guard carrying grenade launchers. Now editions pass and the eldar and one DA are all that remain. I think fluff wise it would have fit...as well as anything else does anymore...but in the end when the entire army can teleport why take jet bikes?

The Dude
03-08-2010, 00:14
With all due respect to you, The Dude, I started that rumor, and it was based on concept art and incomplete model CAD. So not exactly inventing a "rumor for fun"

Sorry, I was thinking of somebody else. ;)

That said, you still can't lose something you never had. People need to stop getting emotionally attached to early rumours :p

spaint2k
03-08-2010, 02:43
With the Grey Knights supposedly being scattered all over the Imperium, can they really muster the numbers for company-level battles? The fluff says they loan out individual squads to leaders of the Ordo Malleus. They're supposed to be among the rarest sights on the battlefield. But wait! Now you can field an entire army of them all at once! You can even collect 10,000 points worth and have a Grey Knight super battle! :eek:


I agree with you from a fluff standpoint (I really don't care how many MEQ armies GW makes).

Another point that really irks me is Grey Knight Dreadnoughts. They simply should not exist. As far as I know, the greatest wish of every Grey Knight is to be laid to rest among the heroes of the chapter on Titan. It most certainly is not to be condemned to life-in-death in a mobile coffin for the next five millennia.

Inquisitor Engel
03-08-2010, 03:40
I think it's stupid they're taking away allies in all but Apoc. It doesn't jive with the background and it's just something that's so easy. The previous set of rules was balanced and easy to understand.

I'm even less chuffed that now I have a set of GK Terminators and some Inquisitors that have zero use. :mad:

Wolf Lord Balrog
03-08-2010, 04:03
I think it's stupid they're taking away allies in all but Apoc. It doesn't jive with the background and it's just something that's so easy. The previous set of rules was balanced and easy to understand.

I'm even less chuffed that now I have a set of GK Terminators and some Inquisitors that have zero use. :mad:

^^ This. I bought a squad of PA GKs because I thought they would be a cool occasional addition to my SW force. I have no intention of collecting a full GK army. WTH GW? :wtf:

Occulto
03-08-2010, 04:16
I think it's stupid they're taking away allies in all but Apoc. It doesn't jive with the background and it's just something that's so easy. The previous set of rules was balanced and easy to understand.

I'm even less chuffed that now I have a set of GK Terminators and some Inquisitors that have zero use. :mad:

This is not in any way an official rumour, but I would not be surprised in the slightest if GW brought back allies in the next edition of 40K.

The Dude
03-08-2010, 04:22
This is not in any way an official rumour, but I would not be surprised in the slightest if GW brought back allies in the next edition of 40K.

I would. I really think they're trying to make basic "out of the box" play as self contained and balanced as possible.

Those who aren't playing tournaments or pick-ups with strangers are perfectly able to come up with an agreement before the game.

Maskedman5oh4
03-08-2010, 04:34
About three months ago after first hearing about the WH/DH/INQ rumors about a new codex I converted 24 inq stormtroopers with pig iron heads, vox caster backpacks and telephone cable in anticipation of a Inquisition army. I did also buy a squad of GK termies. I also have put together a nice amount of necromunda figs (redemptionists and pit slaves) and traded for other retinue metals. I really, really hope I am am not going to have to sell all my neat figs and settle on a mech IG list with alot of stormtroopers. :mad::confused:

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc99/maskedman504/IMG_1542.jpg

Promethius
03-08-2010, 05:07
I can only pray that the "fodder" will at last be plastic stormies!

Amen. Plastic grey knights models will no doubt be gorgeous. Shame that those jetbike rumours have come to nought.

gwarsh41
03-08-2010, 05:13
This sounds like it should be mighty swell for the daemon players...
I wonder what this daemonic infestation is...

Hellebore
03-08-2010, 05:35
I would. I really think they're trying to make basic "out of the box" play as self contained and balanced as possible.

Those who aren't playing tournaments or pick-ups with strangers are perfectly able to come up with an agreement before the game.

Well they did it for 8th ed WFB. I can't imagine that their business strategy for it would be much different to 40k.

It's a sound financial move as it allows people to diversify their purchasing.

Grey Knights are the perfect imperial unit for allying. They rarely show up in the background except as allied units to other imperial organisations.

Hellebore

The Dude
03-08-2010, 05:42
Well they did it for 8th ed WFB. I can't imagine that their business strategy for it would be much different to 40k.

Fantasy doesn't have an Apocalypse equivalent though. That said, perhaps in the next edition they will simply fold all the expansion rules into the main book (and charge AU$124 for it ;))

Hellebore
03-08-2010, 05:51
That's certainly a possibility. The new WFB rulebook sure is purty (and RSI inducing).

But will these new plastic grey knights follow the trend that several others have followed - designed to look more like the older 2nd ed metals than the previous edition? Although the 2nd ed grey knights weren't bad, the current ones (in terminator armour anyway) are great.

I think the power armoured grey knights should have either a storm pistol type weapon or a different setup. At the moment their guns look like twin-linked bolt pistols. I think they'd look all kinds of badass with a bolter strapped to each forearm, counting together as a stormbolter. That or a sawnoff version. There isn't enough difference in gear between them and the termies imo.

Hellebore

Ominous Anonymous
03-08-2010, 05:59
Stickmonkey, in addition to the jetbike rumor we also heard (from Harry) something like PA GK having a 2+ save, has this changed at all to your knowledge, or do you simply continue to refer to them as PAGK as a way to differentiate? :)

Occulto
03-08-2010, 06:22
Well they did it for 8th ed WFB. I can't imagine that their business strategy for it would be much different to 40k.

It's a sound financial move as it allows people to diversify their purchasing.

That's my reasoning. Even if it's nothing more than optional rules, it puts it out there for players.

I think it would settle a lot of issues with things like Lost and the Damned and Chaos Legions.


Grey Knights are the perfect imperial unit for allying. They rarely show up in the background except as allied units to other imperial organisations.

Bingo. A lot of people will pick up a box or two of GKs, that wouldn't if they were kept a stand alone force.

Donnie Darko
03-08-2010, 06:57
Stoked to have an excuse to bust out the old Grey Knights, but am surprised over the backlash over the removal of allies.

While allying to GK's wasn't so bad, being able to drop in a squad or two for a guard army is just vicious these days. With the change to transport rules et al and the upgrade guard revived, I felt bad thinking of adding a GM and 5 Termies to my guard army.

Mmmm Valkyrie deployed TH/SS termies, silly RAW...

Born Again
03-08-2010, 07:04
Just wading in quickly to say I'll be disappointed if the Inquisition elements are pulled back too much. Grey Knights are cool, but another marine army isn't. Flexibility to allow either all Grey Knight, or all Inquisition with maybe 1 squad of Grey Knights would be best I feel, with the "generic" army being a 50/50 mix.

Harry
03-08-2010, 07:12
Heavy rumors of Jan release. I cannot deny this possibility, but I might be personally inclined to say March, only because some items I expect to be released arent far enough to see how they could be done for Jan release.

Release items:

Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.
There you go. :D
(I have tried to put you straight on this one ever since you started posting).

I have had them coming in March for a while now (since I got Dark Eldar solid in the Autumn) but I have recently heard from a couple of places January being suggested. Like you, I wouldn't like to say for sure just yet.

Great rumours but there is a fair mix of stuff in your first post. (Some is accurate some misses by a mile).
Can you identify the bits that are based on first hand info, collected rumours from the mintynet and the guesswork.
Maybe some sort of colour coding. :D



Anything about artificer armour?
The one thing I have posted about Grey Knights is they all wear artificer armour.


Have you heard anything about Sisters of Battle? Any hints at all which army might be after GKs?

All of the DH and WH units have been reduced to blisters so this should mean Sisters should be soon after GK. Any info on maybe a Sisters or Inquisition ally codex?
The Sisters of battle project was started a fairly soon after the Grey Knights.
Not right after .... a little while after.


Stickmonkey, in addition to the jetbike rumor we also heard (from Harry) something like PA GK having a 2+ save.....No ... all I have said is they wear artificer armour.

Hal'jin
03-08-2010, 07:17
Stoked to have an excuse to bust out the old Grey Knights, but am surprised over the backlash over the removal of allies.

While allying to GK's wasn't so bad, being able to drop in a squad or two for a guard army is just vicious these days. With the change to transport rules et al and the upgrade guard revived, I felt bad thinking of adding a GM and 5 Termies to my guard army.

Mmmm Valkyrie deployed TH/SS termies, silly RAW...

Erm, you do realise it is illegal by RAW as stated in the IG FAQ, right?

I'm a bit surprised by those rumors appearing now. Is it still Dark Eldar being next? :eyebrows: Still, can't wait to see the new minis, GW hasn't disappointed me in that department since.. Well, I don't even remember!

Inquisitor Engel
03-08-2010, 07:50
Stoked to have an excuse to bust out the old Grey Knights, but am surprised over the backlash over the removal of allies.

While allying to GK's wasn't so bad, being able to drop in a squad or two for a guard army is just vicious these days. With the change to transport rules et al and the upgrade guard revived, I felt bad thinking of adding a GM and 5 Termies to my guard army.


Easy fix for such abuse:

"Grey Knight units (Terminators, Knights, etc.) may only be carried by dedicated transports purchased directly from Codex: Daemonhunters and not those allied from other armies."

Problem solved.

Ironmonger
03-08-2010, 07:52
The Sisters of battle project was started a fairly soon after the Grey Knights.
Not right after .... a little while after.


So... would that be April-May for SoB then? (Warning: wild speculation)

MadCowCrazy
03-08-2010, 07:58
Not right after .... a little while after.

What exactly do you mean with this? Was another army started in between or did they simply wait a month or two before starting with SoB?

Kroot Lord
03-08-2010, 08:25
So... would that be April-May for SoB then? (Warning: wild speculation)

That'd be right after them, ie: the next release slot. I'd assume it'd be about 6-8 months later, ie: the second next release slot.

rodmillard
03-08-2010, 08:36
So... would that be April-May for SoB then? (Warning: wild speculation)

I would expect another Xenos codex to fall in the middle, looking at 5ed releases so far - probably Necrons, since we have heard that that is in the works. That would put it in Q3/4 next year, if not Q1 2011 depending on how much GW slow down the codex release schedule.

With regards to allied forces, there was a rumour on Heresy a couple of months ago that Inquisitors would be covered by a seperate expansion allowing them to join any Imperial faction. How solid it is I don't know, although it would make sense (speculating here - they could include rules for LATD, Gue-La auxiliaries, Orc freebooters et al in the same "Allies" book). OTOH they may do what they did with spearhead and just have it in WD - maybe put rules for allying an Inquisitor from the GK codex with your marines/guard in the GK release issue?

HeroFox
03-08-2010, 08:37
Great rumours but there is a fair mix of stuff in your first post. (Some is accurate some misses by a mile).

How the hell does this kind of thing happen?

@OP - Did you stop listening and let imagination take its course?

Crimson Reaver
03-08-2010, 09:04
If the role of the Inquisition is being toned down somewhat with the new GK and eventually the SoB books, what does that mean for stuff like Assassins and Deathwatch units? Given there will be a new RPG coming out shortly from FFG which covers the Deathwatch, wouldn't it make sense to get their rules into a Codex in some way, shape or form?

Lord Lorne Walkier
03-08-2010, 09:20
A bigger stretch to me then the # of GK's commited to a fight is who those GK' are likely to be fighting. I play DH =)(= and allways bring around 50pts ish anti deamon stuff to be fluffy and just in case. Out of my last 20 fights i have only faced 2 armies with a deamon. One was a Necron star god and the other was a deamon prince lead CSM. The other times it is a compleet waste. Now i cant think it would be any better with GK's. Might even be worse as if i had a deamon army i cant see my self wanting to fight an eleet army made to kill my stuff, even with the buffs. So what will happen? GK's will spend their time fighting MEQ, orks , Tau, nids and Eldar ( who care the Avataur is a deamon. Its not like any Eldar player even uses one any more and i doubt the GK's have the Avataur as PE#1) . Even worse, GK vs GK. only reason i would get this is for the fluff.

shabbadoo
03-08-2010, 09:56
How the hell does this kind of thing happen?

@OP - Did you stop listening and let imagination take its course?

Maybe because all of the info was not gained first-hand. What do you expect, perfect clarity over 8 months from release? Only studio folks, and that one MI6 40K geekball misappropriating surveillance equipment, know everything for sure at this point. :shifty:

Erazmus_M_Wattle
03-08-2010, 10:10
Cidicii? Really, I think you're wrong about that. Explain your reasoning, if you will.

Cos I used to work in GW studio and the accepted or I should say proscribed spelling is codexes. Personally speaking I may have spelt codecii or however is is spelt wrong. I come from a Reformed Christian country so we don't get taught Latin in schools. I don't understand Latin at all. I actually don't care either way. 40K uses mock Latin anyway so its all nonsense talk discussing Latin anyway. People can argue till the cows come home about the correct plural. It matters not GW has decided long ago that it's codexes so that's how it is.

It's off topic anyway so I am taking no further part in it.

EDIT: on topic. I love the idea of a GK army arrayed against my daemons. One of my gaming buddies is getting a little too excited about the prospect of a plastic GK army. In the Daemon hunters codex the inside front page shows a squad being surrounded by legions of Khorne daemons and I love it. It conjours up the kind of battle these guys really get involved in. I do find it kinda strange that they face up to eldar and orks and stuff. It's not very fluffy. The thing is; not everyone plays daemons. I think if they only ever faced daemons then only people with gaming friend that owned daemons would ever buy them. GW would really be limiting their market. So I guess it's a necessary evil.

I am stoked by the possibility of Grey Knight Chaplains. How nails are they going to be? I also can't wait to see how a unit of GK Terminators fairs in a charge from 9 Bloodcrushers. Epic.

Cornelius
03-08-2010, 10:23
It conjours up the kind of battle these guys really get involved in.

Is this also the proscribed spelling at GW studio? ;)

Born Again
03-08-2010, 11:10
How the hell does this kind of thing happen?

@OP - Did you stop listening and let imagination take its course?

Stickmonkey's source is early on in the process, and he never claims anything to be 100% accurate and definite. He takes what information he can get from his sources and pieces them together to get a more accurate picture than most other people could get without being a Pie. Go easy on him.

Kroot Lord
03-08-2010, 11:16
How the hell does this kind of thing happen?

@OP - Did you stop listening and let imagination take its course?

Whoho, take it easy. I think you ought to be thankful that the original poster, stickmonkey, took the effort to find out about these rumours and post them on Warseer, taking a risk at being exposed to Games Workshop for letting out sensitive information which might even cost him his job (if he works for Games Workshop).

Assuming Harry is right, I'm sure there's more to it than him imagining things. For example, certain information could be older and already have been revised when Harry found out, or some sources may be less accurate than others, etcetera.

Justicar Valius
03-08-2010, 11:31
but in the end when the entire army can teleport why take jet bikes?

Does this mean we have a troops choice that can now teleport?

Lungboy
03-08-2010, 11:43
I am stoked by the possibility of Grey Knight Chaplains.

Really? GK Chaplains goes against all the established fluff for them, and i'd absolutely hate to see them.

Starchild
03-08-2010, 11:47
Really? GK Chaplains goes against all the established fluff for them, and i'd absolutely hate to see them.Yeah, probably just as much as I hate to see Grey Knights deployed like Black Templars, all over the galaxy and just as numerous. :(

deadly claris
03-08-2010, 11:50
grate news , I will buy all the plastic GK (best to start saving monney)

hope the GK dread have a plastic rigth arm so it can be used to make furiosos too

any rumors on the namned carakters ?

boreas
03-08-2010, 11:53
Really? GK Chaplains goes against all the established fluff for them, and i'd absolutely hate to see them.

GK have almost no established fluff, and that fluff has changed over the course of time (from RT to current era)... GW can do pretty much whatever they want anyways (like have necrons suddenly ally with other races, as seen in later codice. BTW If you look at the Oxford dictionnary: (plural codices /ˈkəʊdɪsiːz, ˈkɒd-/ or codexes)).

Well, at least some rumors are starting to float. I'll guess I'll half-retire from my exile to WFB.

Phil

Lungboy
03-08-2010, 11:57
GK have almost no established fluff, and that fluff has changed over the course of time (from RT to current era)

GK have plenty of fluff if you add it all together, and whilst some of it has changed over time, a few nuggets have always stayed the same, the main one being that GK are utterly incorruptible by Chaos, and that not a single GK has ever fallen to Chaos. Which kind of makes Chaplains completely pointless, which is why there has never been a single mention of them in anything apart from the terrible Counter nonsense.

daboarder
03-08-2010, 12:30
Maybe because all of the info was not gained first-hand. What do you expect, perfect clarity over 8 months from release? Only studio folks, and that one MI6 40K geekball misappropriating surveillance equipment, know everything for sure at this point. :shifty:

Is that a Veiled conffession shabbadoo? If so are you interested in selling corporate sectrets, becuase I'd buy em.

IAMNOTHERE
03-08-2010, 12:33
Or it makes Chaplains quite common amongst them - just to be sure none of them ever turn.

With that much belief going round there more likely than less to follow holy orders.

IMO jetbikes are some ones wet dream, all I want is decent antitank so I can compete with mech.

blooddragon
03-08-2010, 12:55
Perhaps jet-bikes as a 'Thunderwolf' style entry? I.e. 'have them if you can be bothered to make them yourself'

rodmillard
03-08-2010, 13:03
Perhaps jet-bikes as a 'Thunderwolf' style entry? I.e. 'have them if you can be bothered to make them yourself'

And ... watch as sales of the DA special character go through the roof. That would be just like GW: why make a plastic kit, when we can shift a load of these £20 metal models that haven't been selling well...

Flagg07
03-08-2010, 13:06
Actually, there is fluff demonstrating that GK have chaplains. Their RoC armylist gave them the full complement of a SM chapter + a Demon hunter, plus a few inquisitors. They even had access to generic IG squads.

Options in a codex are not a bad thing. If you like them, great, if you don't like them, don't use them.

Artein
03-08-2010, 13:18
The Sisters of battle project was started a fairly soon after the Grey Knights.
Not right after .... a little while after.
Tease us a bit more, please?


Pretty please?


Pretty please with a sugar on top?

massey
03-08-2010, 13:21
GK have plenty of fluff if you add it all together, and whilst some of it has changed over time, a few nuggets have always stayed the same, the main one being that GK are utterly incorruptible by Chaos, and that not a single GK has ever fallen to Chaos. Which kind of makes Chaplains completely pointless, which is why there has never been a single mention of them in anything apart from the terrible Counter nonsense.

So obviously they have a lot of Chaplains, who do a very good job. Besides, Chaplains serve a lot of purposes besides preventing you from slipping into Chaos. They are counselors, confidants, and advisors. Your average Grey Knight might be one devout son of a gun, but that doesn't mean they can give a speech worth a darn. Chaplains also perform ceremonies and funeral services and things like that.

Lungboy
03-08-2010, 13:37
Actually, there is fluff demonstrating that GK have chaplains. Their RoC armylist gave them the full complement of a SM chapter + a Demon hunter, plus a few inquisitors. They even had access to generic IG squads.

If you look at their RoC armylist you'll see Daemonhunters, Inquisitors, Lieutenant Commanders, Lieutenants, Captains, Medics, Librarians, Champions, Techmarines, Tactical GK, Devastator GK, Assault GK, Arbites, Guard but no Chaplains at all. Strange that.


So obviously they have a lot of Chaplains, who do a very good job.

Lots of Chaplains that have never been mentioned in anything other than Counter's stuff.

Stickmonkey
03-08-2010, 13:40
Harry is absolutely right.
I have tried very hard to make sure everyone is aware my sources are not 100% solid. I am privy to "some" early design side info, and "some" PT notes or 2nd hand accounts. Occasionally I will be told information that is "permissible" to publish but always with the caveat that I may be fed misinformation. From what I've said in the past I think a few people here may know exactly what I do. But I still have to write a disclaimer up each time I post.

Back to info:
The basic GK marine profile looks very similar to a SM sergeant.

The box sets should all be plastic.

I've seen other people posting rumors of a penitent engine style walker, with a PAGK driver...I have absolutely no confirmation of such a beast. However, if GW wanted to avoid the cries of "GK dont have Dreads, it isnt fluffy" that could be a way...

While External Allies rules are gone by all accounts, it does not mean allies in the codex are gone. Inquisition forces ARE present, just not as dominant. And you will recognize others.

A conversation earlier centered around an ability named "Out the Heretic" which could be used against non-daemon forces causing one unit to "count as" daemons.

Some models "may" be on display at GDUK.

Godzooky
03-08-2010, 13:57
Thanks, Stickmonkey.

Are you Jervis? :shifty:

Inquisitor Engel
03-08-2010, 14:02
Cos I used to work in GW studio and the accepted or I should say proscribed spelling is codexes.

Because the target audience for 40k is under 15, the minutiae of "Codecii" would be lost. Nonetheless, the correct plural is Codecii.

Then again, the correct plural for forum is fora so....

Emeraldw
03-08-2010, 14:15
First, extreme excitement on hearing about Grey Knights. I look forward to them to get myself back into 40k.

The only rumor that has me going "huh?" is the all power weapon one. This is a dramatic change and I really hope they are going to stay str 6 instead of power weapons.

orkz222
03-08-2010, 14:17
Thank you Stickmonkey. stormraven + plastic GK, starting a new GK army next yr!

Arvendragon
03-08-2010, 14:21
Hmm...
So, GK have no *known* Jetbikes in development...
Hoping DA get something.
=D

CitizenNick
03-08-2010, 14:24
Because the target audience for 40k is under 15, the minutiae of "Codecii" would be lost. Nonetheless, the correct plural is Codecii.

Then again, the correct plural for forum is fora so....

Please stop.



I really like the sound of this "Out the Heretic" rule. It sort of addreses the issues I brought up before that it's odd to have an army that is simply the opposite of another army.

If every army can have a hidden daemonic threat, then grey knights make more sense in the big picture.

LonelyPath
03-08-2010, 14:27
Very nice rumours there and alot to consider and ponder over. I'm wondering which of it will turn out to be true, but a fair chunk of things seem to ring true with what I'd expect.

Shame there's no talk among the rumours of the Shrouding rule though :(

korskarnkai
03-08-2010, 14:37
For Harry or anyone else that can help:

Are there any whispers whatsoever about Inquisitors in any 40k related context?

FerociousBeast
03-08-2010, 14:45
Anything about artificer armour?
The one thing I have posted about Grey Knights is they all wear artificer armour.

...


Stickmonkey, in addition to the jetbike rumor we also heard (from Harry) something like PA GK having a 2+ save.....
No ... all I have said is they wear artificer armour.
Wha- huh?? You may count my curiosity as piqued!

Lord Khabal
03-08-2010, 14:50
I certainly hope that GK dont become sargeants with power weapons in artificer armour!!! The cost of every model model should be around 35 pts... Kind of a wingless sanguinary guard...

radical ed
03-08-2010, 15:12
While External Allies rules are gone by all accounts, it does not mean allies in the codex are gone. Inquisition forces ARE present, just not as dominant. And you will recognize others.

This above nugget sounds cool: "External Allies"? "Others"? Like Space Marine Tactical squads? Or Imperial Guard platoons? Or SOB squads?
Hopefully this means, that while a Codex space marine army cant take GK's, a GK army can take Space marines.......

Lord Lorne Walkier
03-08-2010, 15:32
I really like the sound of this "Out the Heretic" rule. It sort of addreses the issues I brought up before that it's odd to have an army that is simply the opposite of another army.

If every army can have a hidden daemonic threat, then grey knights make more sense in the big picture.

This would help alot until you run into a Nid , Tau, necron, or other GK army. SoB would even be a bit strange. Better then nothing though. Also better then the rule option in the back of the DH dex that gives a player the option of buying some crapy random deamon. No one ever came close to useing one that ive seen or even heard.

Kettu
03-08-2010, 15:32
The Sisters of battle project was started a fairly soon after the Grey Knights.
Not right after .... a little while after.

Ok, so Sisters were not started straight away.
So Necrons?
But then, if it's Necrons and then Sisters that would mean it's been two releases without marines.
So Black Temps?
But then there would be two Imperium releases without Xenos.
So Tau?
But then that would again be two non marine releases.
So Dark Angels?

So the Sisters are still due circa the other side of the apocalypse, got ya.:rolleyes:

Cornelius
03-08-2010, 15:45
Because the target audience for 40k is under 15, the minutiae of "Codecii" would be lost. Nonetheless, the correct plural is Codecii.


I'm quite sure it's "codices". Which dictionary do you use?

Captain Idaho
03-08-2010, 15:57
Ok, so Sisters were not started straight away.
But then, if it's Necrons and then Sisters that would mean it's been two releases without marines.


Ah but still a power armour release ;)

Sildani
03-08-2010, 16:55
I'm quite sure it's "codices". Which dictionary do you use?

Who cares? Please take it to a new thread or to PMs. Let's not attract the Inquisition any more than we must.

This is interesting stuff. Once again, GW needs to "fudge" a Daemonic prescence in every other army a GK player could come across so that all their nifty and expensive anti-daemon weaponry and rules can be used properly. Thing is, such weaponry and rules are generally really effective, thus increasing the vulnerability of a piece of the opponent's army by quite a lot... which is something I don't believe the opponent paid for (or got a point reduction for).

Would it really be that bad if the GK ran into an army that not all of their stuff worked perfectly for? They'd still be Marines, after all, just with better stats, guns, and armor. That alone would be a plenty tough nut for the other armies to crack, without increasing their vulnerability arbitrarily. Thoughts?

Lungboy
03-08-2010, 17:04
Giving their stormbolters Psycannon bolts would be fluffy and anti-Daemon, whilst not giving them much of a boost against other armies. It would be pretty easy to cost too.

Jackmojo
03-08-2010, 17:08
This is interesting stuff. Once again, GW needs to "fudge" a Daemonic prescence in every other army a GK player could come across so that all their nifty and expensive anti-daemon weaponry and rules can be used properly. Thing is, such weaponry and rules are generally really effective, thus increasing the vulnerability of a piece of the opponent's army by quite a lot... which is something I don't believe the opponent paid for (or got a point reduction for).


Its very much in line with stuff we've seen in both Blood Angels and Tyranids though, both of them have special characters who penalize an enemy character. This could be similar, though if limited to an Independent Character it loses a lot of utility (since so many armies can be fielded with none; IG, Tyranids, CSM, Daemons, Blood Angels, etc...).

Jack

Chaplain Dionitas
03-08-2010, 17:09
This is certainly heartening news. I'm looking forward to breaking by GK Army back out and adding to it! Thanks for the clarity (Sort of haha)

Sildani
03-08-2010, 17:27
Its very much in line with stuff we've seen in both Blood Angels and Tyranids though, both of them have special characters who penalize an enemy character. This could be similar, though if limited to an Independent Character it loses a lot of utility (since so many armies can be fielded with none; IG, Tyranids, CSM, Daemons, Blood Angels, etc...).

Jack

That's true, but as you said, it affects one character. This sounds like it affects an entire unit, or perhaps more than one. I'm not going to panic, but I do wonder how this could be fair to the non-GK player. If it can be made fair at all.

Godzooky
03-08-2010, 17:36
Not in English it isn't. The english plural of "Codex" is either "Codices" or "Codexes", both equally valid. "Forums" is a viable plural of "Forum".

Now, they are loanwords originally form Latin. In a Latin text, Latin grammar would apply.

However, given that we use them as adopted into English, one doesn't apply Latin grammar to them any more than you would apply chinese grammar if you talk about "tea", french grammar if you talk about a "country" or arabic grammar if you talk about your "guitar" or a "jar".

Come on, guys. Christ, if you have doubts about the plural of codex just say "books". :eyebrows:

OT: I hope there's a named Grey Knight chapter master this time around.

MadCowCrazy
03-08-2010, 18:20
I cant find the option to report posts so could the Warseer Inquisition please come delete all the grammar nazi posts and give the posts a warning. It has NOTHING to do with this thread and its annoying as hell.

massey
03-08-2010, 19:02
This would help alot until you run into a Nid , Tau, necron, or other GK army. SoB would even be a bit strange. Better then nothing though. Also better then the rule option in the back of the DH dex that gives a player the option of buying some crapy random deamon. No one ever came close to useing one that ive seen or even heard.

Nah. It'll still work. I haven't seen the proposed rule, just a vague indication about a "hidden demonic threat". That could be anything.

Nids? A squad of Hormagaunts laid its eggs (yes, they lay eggs) on top of a chaos portal. Now those eggs have hatched, and there is something... else controlling them.

Tau? Some Tau commander found a special sword in some ancient ruins. Huh. Wonder what it could be.

Necrons? Eh. Possessed robot.

Grey Knights? Are those really your battle brothers, or something that has taken their place? Think The Thing. Their brother Grey Knights (the one making up the other army) might not even realize it. Of course, you're perfectly sure that all your troops are who they actually appear to be...

Of course, if you only ever play games against your buddy, and you both use the same armies over and over again, you'll eventually run out of reasons to have his army always have some sort of demonic possession going on. But that's the case with any time you play the same army again and again. "Aren't these guys tired of fighting each other yet?"

Stickmonkey
03-08-2010, 19:07
While the discussion was about units...the rule name was "Out the Heretic" not Heretics...so that could be telling...or not. ;)

Personally, I expect this rule, if it makes the codex to be more similar to the "Sarge is acting strange" rule.

I only wish I were Jervis. :D

FYI, I'm begging my sources to let me post the GK jetbike art. We will see.

HeroFox
03-08-2010, 19:26
So... unless someone is way off with the rumors..

Gathered from Harry and the OP, we have Power Armored Grey Knights toting Power Weapons at WS4, S4 and having Artificer Armor?

lol, I don't think so.

Sgt John Keel
03-08-2010, 19:29
Back to info:
The basic GK marine profile looks very similar to a SM sergeant.

Why does GW hate True Grit. I liked that special rule.

Power Weapons on line squads and Force Weapons on Terminators at S4 also seem vaguely useless against Dæmons.

gorgon
03-08-2010, 19:40
Nothing says Nemesis weapons can't be power weapons AND have additional effects, a la boneswords.

Ignoring daemons' invulnerable saves or forcing rerolls of made invulnerable saves are possibilities, for instance.

Erwos
03-08-2010, 19:51
Gathered from Harry and the OP, we have Power Armored Grey Knights toting Power Weapons at WS4, S4 and having Artificer Armor?
Seems reasonable to me, if they're priced correctly. They don't have an invulnerable save, so the same stuff that can kill regular marines in droves will have a good time with them. Plasma will still do them just fine, too - they'll just be a lot more resilient to battle/maw cannons and krak. Not a huge deal.

Any word if they'll get a "descent of the angels" scatter-reducing rule for teleportation deep-strike? That would be nice and fluffy...

And, of course, new fodder should be exciting. I imagine they'll keep stormtroopers for continuity purposes, but if they're not going to release a fodder boxed set, this would imply the fodder are guardsmen or space marines.

Lungboy
03-08-2010, 19:57
WS4 GK just sounds wrong.

Sgt John Keel
03-08-2010, 20:01
Nothing says Nemesis weapons can't be power weapons AND have additional effects, a la boneswords.

Ignoring daemons' invulnerable saves or forcing rerolls of made invulnerable saves are possibilities, for instance.

Well, yes. But there's not much sense in the basic abilities being all but worthless against their preferred foe.

(Admittedly, I mostly want S6 so they just walk through Ork Boyz.)

Emeraldw
03-08-2010, 20:59
Well, yes. But there's not much sense in the basic abilities being all but worthless against their preferred foe.

(Admittedly, I mostly want S6 so they just walk through Ork Boyz.)

I would also vastly prefer S6 since power weapons are amazing versus marines but would be largely worthless against everyone else.

Irbian
03-08-2010, 21:21
Play Testing, when they play games to try out the new rules to determine if they need to be revised.

Thank you very much :D



Great rumours but there is a fair mix of stuff in your first post. (Some is accurate some misses by a mile).
Can you identify the bits that are based on first hand info, collected rumours from the mintynet and the guesswork.
Maybe some sort of colour coding. :D

Agreed :D



The one thing I have posted about Grey Knights is they all wear artificer armour.

I know :) I just was checking if both you and stickmonkey had listen the same about that :P



The Sisters of battle project was started a fairly soon after the Grey Knights.
Not right after .... a little while after.

I would guess something in the middle, no more, no less


If you look at their RoC armylist you'll see Daemonhunters, Inquisitors, Lieutenant Commanders, Lieutenants, Captains, Medics, Librarians, Champions, Techmarines, Tactical GK, Devastator GK, Assault GK, Arbites, Guard but no Chaplains at all. Strange that.

Sorry, what mean RoC?
By the way I always thinked that techmarines must play a more important role in the gk.



Lots of Chaplains that have never been mentioned in anything other than Counter's stuff.
I dont see any reason why couldnt be chaplains, even if they do other stuff different from her SM cousins


WS4 GK just sounds wrong.
^QFT

About the fodder, I dont expect plastic stormtroopers when they have been just repackaged. Arbites? I dont like arbites >_<...

philbrad2
03-08-2010, 21:39
Please keep this on news & rumour topics. OT posts will be removed and if the thread descends into wish-listing and 'Kewl!!!" responses it will get closed or moved. You have been warned.

PhilB
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Kaldanesh
03-08-2010, 22:12
I'm quite sure it's "codices". Which dictionary do you use?

QFT. See example index, indices. But as Erazmus stated GW uses the word codexes so all of this discussion about correct plural is a bit moot.

@stickmonkey, this GK jetbike art was this concept sketch, painting?

LonelyPath
03-08-2010, 22:25
Sorry, what mean RoC?

It means Realms of Chaos, it's in reference to the books that came out in the late 80s and early 90s. The original GK army list was presented in the first Realms of Chaos book entitled Slaves to Darkness. The 2 books without doubt remain the greatest source books GW has ever produced ('Ere We Go and WAAAGH! Orks being close joint 2nd).

@ Stickymonkey - I'd also be interested in seeing the GK jetbike art. Though I've never liked the idea of them having jetbikes, seeing some art would still be nice :)

daboarder
03-08-2010, 23:05
Why does GW hate True Grit. I liked that special rule.

Power Weapons on line squads and Force Weapons on Terminators at S4 also seem vaguely useless against Dæmons.

Seems like it would be an almost auto win against Nids tho....every time I start feeling like upgrading them for the new codex this happens.....

Valerian
03-08-2010, 23:08
So... unless someone is way off with the rumors..

Gathered from Harry and the OP, we have Power Armored Grey Knights toting Power Weapons at WS4, S4 and having Artificer Armor?

lol, I don't think so.

Where did either Harry or stickmonkey say anything about S4 for the Nemesis Force Weapons. I didn't see that mentioned by either of them. They were S6 in the most recent edition, and I don't see that changing (and haven't noticed it mentioned by the rumor-mongers, either).

V

Hrogoff the Destructor
03-08-2010, 23:11
Stickmonkey said the profile is like a sergeants, not the gear, equipment, or special rules.

Triszin The Wrath God
03-08-2010, 23:28
so stickymonky/ harry is there anyway to confirm deny the existence of the rumored GK jet bike?

Rabid Bunny 666
03-08-2010, 23:54
The Sisters of battle project was started a fairly soon after the Grey Knights.
Not right after .... a little while after.


Harry, you are a Gentleman and a Scholar. If I am ever in a position to supply you with Pie I shall.

edit:


WS4 GK just sounds wrong.

Aren't they WS4 anyway? They may be 5, but I don't have my book handy at the moment.

Ominous Anonymous
04-08-2010, 00:33
Or maybe they meant 2 attacks base, not WS4.

MajorWesJanson
04-08-2010, 00:53
Probably the 2 attacks base, which may balance dropping true grit.

Wolf Lord Balrog
04-08-2010, 01:11
Harry said Artificer Armor, but then he was evasive about that meaning a 2+ Save. That got me thinking, maybe PA GKs will have a hybrid Save like Terminators. Maybe 3+/5++?

spaint2k
04-08-2010, 02:25
Harry said Artificer Armor, but then he was evasive about that meaning a 2+ Save. That got me thinking, maybe PA GKs will have a hybrid Save like Terminators. Maybe 3+/5++?

Maybe Harry just means the models will be beautiful.

Starchild
04-08-2010, 02:40
Maybe Harry just means the models will be beautiful.I'm going with that. If "regular" GKs get artificer armour, what point would there be taking GK terminators other than a 5+ invulnerable save? :eyebrows:

Cheexsta
04-08-2010, 02:48
I'm going with that. If "regular" GKs get artificer armour, what point would there be taking GK terminators other than a 5+ invulnerable save? :eyebrows:


NFW lose the changing abilities based on rank of user. standardized to PA NFW is PW with special abilities vs Daemons, TA NFW is FW with same.
If Stickmonkey is right on this, then GK Terminators would have better weapons than the PA equivalents. I wouldn't be surprised if GK Termies gained access to other SM equipment, like stormshields and such as well which would also increase their value over PA GK in general.

But I do agree that Harry was being vague about the artificer armour to make it clear that it is different to what we recognise as artificer armour.

Hellebore
04-08-2010, 02:49
The current grey knights already have enough similarities as it is. I'd much rather the PA ones are differentiated more to create distinct roles for them.

EDIT: If terminator NFWs turn into normal force weapons, then they're either going to have to rewrite the rules for Force Weapons or we'll be stuck with fairly useless terminators. All daemons have eternal warrior, which means they ignore the extra killingness of a force weapon.

Stacking additional special rules onto those weapons seems like a waste to me.

However, it shouldn't be hard for the codex to balance anti daemon ability against daemon armies. The anti daemon abilities don't cost any extra, but are balanced by allowing daemonic units to recylce (as is the case in the current book). Thus the codex retains its own self balance - it grants an advantage and a counter at the same time.

In all other circumstances it acts the same.

Hellebore

massey
04-08-2010, 03:11
I think they will just give the GK abilities that happen to be useful against thing that have demon-style builds. Anti-deep strike abilities (like the one eliminating icons), things that ignore invulnerable saves, etc. They would be useful against all armies -- demons just happen to have lots of the things they are useful against.

Hellebore
04-08-2010, 03:23
I dunno, ignoring all invulnerable saves is a scarily good ability. Entire squads of space marines+ stats ignoring invulnerable saves... enemy terminators would be scythed down, no character would survive.

Although the hilarity of seeing the OTT 3+ invuln storm shield termies being slaughtered might be worth it...:shifty:

Hellebore

Ominous Anonymous
04-08-2010, 03:30
A unit full of force weapons would ruin Monstrous Creatures and units of multi-wound models, so that's one use.

massey
04-08-2010, 03:52
I dunno, ignoring all invulnerable saves is a scarily good ability. Entire squads of space marines+ stats ignoring invulnerable saves... enemy terminators would be scythed down, no character would survive.

Although the hilarity of seeing the OTT 3+ invuln storm shield termies being slaughtered might be worth it...:shifty:

Hellebore

Not if it doesn't ignore regular saves. The rumors here mentioned that Psycannons would be AP 3. If they also ignored invulnerables, that would still make Terminators incredibly tough.

Looks like GK are going to be the super-elite army, kept in check by the fact that they are incredibly expensive. Like the Blood Angels, some of their units might appear to be under-priced initially, especially considering all the special gear they'll get. But I think they'll be skirting the edge of just not having enough models. It'll be like the all-Sanguinary Guard army.

Hellebore
04-08-2010, 03:59
Not if it doesn't ignore regular saves. The rumors here mentioned that Psycannons would be AP 3. If they also ignored invulnerables, that would still make Terminators incredibly tough.

Looks like GK are going to be the super-elite army, kept in check by the fact that they are incredibly expensive. Like the Blood Angels, some of their units might appear to be under-priced initially, especially considering all the special gear they'll get. But I think they'll be skirting the edge of just not having enough models. It'll be like the all-Sanguinary Guard army.

Well the rumour said they were force weapons and force weapons ignore armour saves. Psycannons at AP3? Wow, that's scary.

One of the problems with them being force weapons is having to roll the attacks separately so you know which models wound in order to determine who can use the FW ability to inflict ID. As each model would only be able to do it once.

I think though that them just being terminators with power weapons is enough to destroy most monstrous creatures through volume of attacks. I'm not sure how often you'd need to use the ID ability in the first place.

Hellebore

massey
04-08-2010, 04:15
Well, I was thinking more of shooting attacks that ignored invulnerables. Certainly a force weapon that did so would be devastating.

Ominous Anonymous
04-08-2010, 04:27
Maybe we have no idea how big the iceburg is from above, so to speak.

Stickmonkey
04-08-2010, 04:33
I've seen "other" sites reporting I said nfw gave wound daemons on 2+. I never said that. Not sure where that is coming from.

From what I know right now nfw will be +2S across the board as now, but pagks will all count as pw, and tagks will all count as fw. Then on top of that, all nfw gain additional capabilities vs daemons. Plus unit leaders may have master crafted nfw...not sure if it's upgrade or standard.

Cheers.

Hellebore
04-08-2010, 04:41
:eek: I was running with the idea that they'd drop down to S4 with those upgrades. But to have S6 power weapon Troops AND S6 FWs for the termies!? There are going to be very few units that can stand against a GK terminator unit, daemon or no...

Hellebore

Chem-Dog
04-08-2010, 05:10
I wonder if this leaves the door open for Codex: Inquisition?

It'd be nice, not holding my breath though.


gone are any references to or imagery of Jetbike riding GK.

A shame, that would have been cool.


I can only pray that the "fodder" will at last be plastic stormies!

Fingers crossed on that one :D



I've seen other people posting rumors of a penitent engine style walker, with a PAGK driver...I have absolutely no confirmation of such a beast. However, if GW wanted to avoid the cries of "GK dont have Dreads, it isnt fluffy" that could be a way...

As an idle musing...Originally Dreadnoughts were very much suits of armour that the wearer could get out of....



Gathered from Harry and the OP, we have Power Armored Grey Knights toting Power Weapons at WS4, S4 and having Artificer Armor?

lol, I don't think so.

Sanguinary guard.....


Nothing says Nemesis weapons can't be power weapons AND have additional effects, a la boneswords.

Ignoring daemons' invulnerable saves or forcing rerolls of made invulnerable saves are possibilities, for instance.

Or even a Debuff psychic power, special Anti Daemon grenades (blessed frag) or any number of virtually identical Game effects :D
It'd be interesting to see if the GK's will get Daemon related prefered enemy.


If Stickmonkey is right on this, then GK Terminators would have better weapons than the PA equivalents. I wouldn't be surprised if GK Termies gained access to other SM equipment, like stormshields and such as well which would also increase their value over PA GK in general.

Pretty certain GK's already have access to Storm Shields...

Intresting stuff all the same, cheers Stickmonkey :)

Sabe
04-08-2010, 06:24
Not saying it can't/won't happen, but in recent years GW seems to have been moving away from the whole ignoring inv. saves outright thing. We do see some of the "re-roll successful inv. saves", and we do have some unique abilities which technically ignore all sorts of saves, but we haven't had any of weapons that outright ignore inv. saves when wounding since 3rd edition. Its for the best really IMO. But anyway, as I said, I suppose it could happen, but I just don't see their design philosophy changing for this one codex after going through all of 5th edition (and 4th) moving away from that. Abilities that force the opponent to take characteristic tests though, those have been becoming more popular.

MajorWesJanson
04-08-2010, 06:31
:eek: I was running with the idea that they'd drop down to S4 with those upgrades. But to have S6 power weapon Troops AND S6 FWs for the termies!? There are going to be very few units that can stand against a GK terminator unit, daemon or no...

Hellebore

This actually fits pretty well with the fluff. PAGKs with Relic Blades, 2 attacks a piece, a storm bolter, and maybe artificer armor for 30 or so points a piece fits with being the best equipped unit in the imperium, but nearly always outnumbered. It limits being able to make a horde GK list, even with PA models, and makes the IST/cannon fodder models more attractive, even at 8-12 points a piece. Far fewer vehicle and support options means the troops have to do more with less support.

Vehicle-wise, they have Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders (plus variants), and occasionally Rhinos and Razorbacks. Adding the Storm Raven to Fast Attack would help, throwing in Rhinos and Razorbacks for PAGK units helps a lot, but lacking Landspeeders, Predators, Whirlwinds, and Vindicators hurts their flexability a lot.


I doubt that NFWs will ignore invul saves. What is more likely would be something more like how null zone works, where sucessful invul saves must be rerolled.

Harry
04-08-2010, 06:35
Harry said Artificer Armor, but then he was evasive about that meaning a 2+ Save......


.....
But I do agree that Harry was being vague about the artificer armour to make it clear that it is different to what we recognise as artificer armour.
I wasn't trying to be evasive or vague.
All I heard was that "all GK wear artificer armour". I have not heard anything about the specifics of rules ... so I have not said anything about it. Also i have no idea what regular artificer armour does to try and make it clear that this is in anyway different from what "we recognise as artificer armour".....We don't get a lot of that in Fantasy. :D

synack
04-08-2010, 07:01
I could have sworn that in a previous rumour thread, it was said by someone, that the GK NFW would ignore Eternal Warrior? I can't remember if it was said to be only vs Daemons or not.

Also, that profile for the psycannon looks wack. Heavy 3 24" range, but assault 1 36" large blast? Shouldn't it be Assault 3 24", Heavy 1 36" Large Blast?

The Dude
04-08-2010, 07:29
I could have sworn that in a previous rumour thread, it was said by someone, that the GK NFW would ignore Eternal Warrior?

A rule that allows you to ignore a rule that ignores another rule? Sounds like Games Workshop :p

Hellebore
04-08-2010, 07:33
Instant Death<Eternal Warrior<Grey Knight POWAZ<

I would have thought that the [I]large blast on a heavy bolter would look more wack than being heavy 24"...

Hellebore

sir_valance
04-08-2010, 07:50
Misinterpretations are quick to happen with rumours....

But couldn't it just be we're talking about Aegis armour, instead of artificer?

Haunter!
04-08-2010, 08:42
Misinterpretations are quick to happen with rumours....

But couldn't it just be we're talking about Aegis armour, instead of artificer?

More than likely. Fluff-wise it's what they have and it's a bit cheap game-wise to have an army full of 2+ saves.

Jackmojo
04-08-2010, 09:06
Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Blood Angels can all do it, that's three armies, with two of them being quite new (and therefore indicative of more current design)

Jack

AmonRa
04-08-2010, 09:16
From what I know right now nfw will be +2S across the board as now, but pagks will all count as pw, and tagks will all count as fw. Then on top of that, all nfw gain additional capabilities vs daemons. Plus unit leaders may have master crafted nfw...not sure if it's upgrade or standard.

Cheers.

I just had a nerdgasm. If this is true, I'm getting a Grey Knight Tattoo right above the heart. Thanks for the rumours, monkey. Even if in the end this turns out to be false, you made my day.

Lukaz
04-08-2010, 11:55
Thanks Stickmonkey, loving the nfw rumors, seems the biggest gain is against other spacemarines with the PW attribute addition, does any of this make PA/AAGK anymore survivable against things like geenstealers(<-not sure on spelling)? Are there any rumors on anti tank for GK, I have just read the whole thread but its 8 pages long so I probably forgot if anti tank rumors where mentioned.

@AmonRa "nerdgasm" lol awesome

Morlu
04-08-2010, 11:55
If I am right don't daemons have a single special rule called "daemonic" that the invulnerable save is list under as is the fact that they are all eternal warriors etc. what if rather than ignoring invulnerable saves, the NFW ingnored the "daemonic" special rule, this would mean they would have no effect at all on the invulnerable saves of termies/characters etc. but would ignore the daemons invulnerable saves and the force weapon versons of the NFW could instant kill daemons...problem solved :p

LonelyPath
04-08-2010, 12:03
I would say I'm dusting off my GK in preparation, but I never stopped playing them. If even 1 element of these rumours is true then I'll be happy. However, if those jet bikes manage to sneak back in I will be quite upset since the last of the jet bikes are in the possession of The Unforgiven.

MajorWesJanson
04-08-2010, 12:12
However, if those jet bikes manage to sneak back in I will be quite upset since the last of the jet bikes are in the possession of The Unforgiven.

Yes, but the Grey Knights may have kept the first 499...

Ominous Anonymous
04-08-2010, 14:21
More than likely. Fluff-wise it's what they have and it's a bit cheap game-wise to have an army full of 2+ saves.

Yes, I mean have you seen all those people winning 'Ard Boyz with Deathwing and Sanguinary Guard lists? :shifty:

EDIT: Not to say I'd be adverse to a 2+ save for all Grey Knights...

lordbeefy
04-08-2010, 14:40
The only thing bothering me now is how dated will my metal GK now look?

I do hope that the new stuff is in keeping with the established imagery.

synack
04-08-2010, 14:44
The only thing bothering me now is how dated will my metal GK now look?

I do hope that the new stuff is in keeping with the established imagery.

I'm not bothered about that. Will justbe nice to use what I've got already and then slowly build up on the plastics. Means I don't have to splurge on Troops from the get go and I can pick up a two or three stormravens rather.

Ominous Anonymous
04-08-2010, 14:48
The only thing bothering me now is how dated will my metal GK now look?

I do hope that the new stuff is in keeping with the established imagery.

Considering the current Grey Knights are some of the best models GW puts out right now, I wouldn't worry so much. Only so much. :evilgrin:

Sarevok
04-08-2010, 14:54
NFWS should ignore invulnerable saves or wound Daemons on a 2+ instead of ignore EW.
I mean ignoring EW is useless against the majority of a daemon army.

gwarsh41
04-08-2010, 14:56
If I am right don't daemons have a single special rule called "daemonic" that the invulnerable save is list under as is the fact that they are all eternal warriors etc. what if rather than ignoring invulnerable saves, the NFW ingnored the "daemonic" special rule, this would mean they would have no effect at all on the invulnerable saves of termies/characters etc. but would ignore the daemons invulnerable saves and the force weapon versons of the NFW could instant kill daemons...problem solved :p

We also have "Blessing of the blood god" ++2 against wounds caused by Psychic powers, guess what force weapons happen to be?

Our flesh hounds might have some usage against grey knights in TDA! That would seem counter productive though, as the Bloodthirster has this upgrade and would terrorize GKTDA.


Considering the current Grey Knights are some of the best models GW puts out right now, I wouldn't worry so much. Only so much. :evilgrin:

I agree, I have actually made a custom lone wolf out of a Grey knight in TDA.

Kroot Lord
04-08-2010, 15:10
NFWS should ignore invulnerable saves or wound Daemons on a 2+ instead of ignore EW.
I mean ignoring EW is useless against the majority of a daemon army.

Alright. WS5 Terminators, so 2 attacks, with a Strength 6 weapon, which ignores armour saves, ignores invulnerable saves and, finally, if the target has multiple wounds, it dies outright thanks to a leadership test.

Yeah, really sounds likely unless they cost 70+ points each!

Ominous Anonymous
04-08-2010, 15:21
We also have "Blessing of the blood god" ++2 against wounds caused by Psychic powers, guess what force weapons happen to be?

Our flesh hounds might have some usage against grey knights in TDA! That would seem counter productive though, as the Bloodthirster has this upgrade and would terrorize GKTDA.

Wounds caused by force weapons are just power weapon wounds, so you wouldn't get the save unless they tried using the 'suck your soul out' power.

EDIT: Unless the rule specifies wounds caused by force weapons. :p

Sabe
04-08-2010, 17:33
EDIT: Unless the rule specifies wounds caused by force weapons.

It most certainly does.:)

Ominous Anonymous
04-08-2010, 17:39
Well then lah-dee-dah. :eek:

S00N3R FR3AK
04-08-2010, 19:08
Really? GK Chaplains goes against all the established fluff for them, and i'd absolutely hate to see them.

In the Grey Knights book Alaric does talk to Chaplin and it does have sense to have these people to look over the GKs another reason why none have ever fallen.

Man Ive been waiting to here some solid GK stuff for awhile but of course the rumors put it around the 3DS release window, ugh wheres a money tree when you need one lol. I think all of that stuff sounds nice for the army and only the price kept me from doing one as they are my favorite for fluff. Heck I would play the current rules if we just got plastic models.

Justicar Valius
04-08-2010, 19:46
Black library is not canon, so there is a chance of no chaplains :D

Thank you to Stickymonkey for posting up these rumours (even if not all are accurate, it's better than no rumours).

Thank you to Harry for once again stating the all AA rumour again, gets me thinking of 2+ troops :evilgrin:

Hal'jin
04-08-2010, 20:43
I'm not sure what to think of WS5 S6 Sv2+ Power Weapon wielding Fearless troops to be honest. I'm concerned about their point cost being possibly hard to balance. Either they will be too expensive and there will be too little of them for the benefits to matter or they will be too cheap and it will be hell to kill them.

Then again they could be an elite hammer unit in a troops slot, while the fodder will be meant for everything else.

All in all it sounds interesting though. My Guard doesn't care much, my Wolves are a little concerned, but all I care about is seeing miniatures. :)

HeroFox
04-08-2010, 23:06
All in all it sounds interesting though. My Guard doesn't care much, my Wolves are a little concerned, but all I care about is seeing miniatures.

Best said right here.

All I want to see is the miniatures. Pure GK was my first army and I regret till this day that I let them go because I wanted to play something else.

Time to restart them if these rumors are in fact true.

Did we establish that they are indeed WS5 with S6 Power Weapons and AA?

Kroot Lord
04-08-2010, 23:36
Did we establish that they are indeed WS5 with S6 Power Weapons and AA?

Have you read any of the last 2 pages? That'd have answered your question, but I'll answer it for you:

Harry confirmed they have AA
Stickmonkey confirmed they have Nemesis Force Weapons which add +2 Strength to the user and are power weapons (and force weapons for Terminators).

HeroFox
05-08-2010, 00:07
Have you read any of the last 2 pages? That'd have answered your question, but I'll answer it for you:

Harry confirmed they have AA
Stickmonkey confirmed they have Nemesis Force Weapons which add +2 Strength to the user and are power weapons (and force weapons for Terminators).

Doesn't answer if they retain WS5, which was part of my post ;)

That's fine though.. seeing how the previous GK rumor thread was a complete hoax, I'll take this with more salt than usual.

Spectral Dragon
05-08-2010, 00:44
Now, I enjoy Stickmonkey's posts and appreciates what he gives us (so please don't take this personally Stickmonkey,) But I have been told that the Stormraven will NOT be making an appearance any time soon as a model, though it will be in the codex. It's supposed to be one of those "do it yourself" projects GW likes to throw at you every once in a while (much like many of the apocalypse big and bads.)

I have also heard to expect them to be more powerful, be able to take Rhino's as transport, and to expect an invulnerable save and/or cover save on all GK units (replacing the Aegis, though fluff wise representing the same thing.) This might mean you can expect dreads to have a 5+ cover save, BTW.

Now, before I was hearing that DE and GK would be fairly back to back with Necrons at the beginning of the year sometime. I am not sure how that is going to pan out, but I can guess GW is going to break their usual way of releasing things and put GK's in at december. Very shaky on that one, though. Though honestly I suggest Salt for everything that I hear.

Kurgash
05-08-2010, 06:27
*reads the part about chaos icons not working withing X distance of GK*

Well crap...

Lord Khabal
05-08-2010, 10:11
regarding the 2+ AS, remeber that power armour(3+AS)+FNP (death company, etc), statitically = 2+AS.
So using death company: remove rage, furious charge, bolt pistol give +2S and storm bolter, and I can see GKAA in the 25-30 pts interval (and obviously they should be scoring...)

Kroot Lord
05-08-2010, 10:25
Doesn't answer if they retain WS5, which was part of my post ;)

That's fine though.. seeing how the previous GK rumor thread was a complete hoax, I'll take this with more salt than usual.

No, WS5 hasn't been confirmed, but people have been speculating it, despite the fact that neither Stickmonkey nor Harry have commented on it.

Cloud Runner
05-08-2010, 12:22
If you take a look at the campaign pack produced by Tempus Fugitives which you can download here (http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/pdf/AotE/TGS%20Imperial%20Edition.pdf) there's some interesting things to do with Grey Knights. Page 31 is the tasty bits.


Not saying they're spot on, but there does seem to be more than a passing simliarity sometimes....



Still, could be way off, but I have my suspicions.

Justicar Valius
05-08-2010, 12:35
No, WS5 hasn't been confirmed, but people have been speculating it, despite the fact that neither Stickmonkey nor Harry have commented on it.

Sitckymonkey said that the GK statline was very similar to a Space marine sarge, I think they are WS4, we don't know if this is different and what makes it similar rathar than the same, so they may be WS4

Lungboy
05-08-2010, 12:42
I'd think it was more likely that they'd keep the WS5 they have now, gain the A2 of the sergeant, and lose True Grit.

massey
05-08-2010, 13:23
If you take a look at the campaign pack produced by Tempus Fugitives which you can download here (http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/pdf/AotE/TGS%20Imperial%20Edition.pdf) there's some interesting things to do with Grey Knights. Page 31 is the tasty bits.


Not saying they're spot on, but there does seem to be more than a passing simliarity sometimes....



Still, could be way off, but I have my suspicions.

They've been pretty right-on before with their other campaign packs. I'd put money on it that this is pretty close to what we'll be seeing in January.

Hellebore
05-08-2010, 13:41
All their grey knights have two wounds. I'm not sure they'd do that for basic troopers, even grey knights. Although, I never expected to see Mephiston as he is in this edition either...

Hellebore

Erazmus_M_Wattle
05-08-2010, 13:46
Really? GK Chaplains goes against all the established fluff for them, and i'd absolutely hate to see them.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence as they say. I wouldn't say it goes against the fluff it just hasn't been mentioned before. I mean it doesn't actually state anywhere that they don't have chaplains, apothecaries, tech-marines or anything else. Even Librarians. Some one has to look after all the books and train the new recruits in the use of their psychic powers. Correct me if I am wrong.

Lets just say that since the daemons have taken a large nod and a wink to the "Slaves to Darkness" and "Lost and the Damned" it stands to reason that the Grey Knights may also do the same. In one of those books, I forget which one, the Grey Knights were presented as fully fleshed SM army. The full gamut, the lot.

Even if it does fly in the face of established background, the stormraven made an appearance and we never heard of that before. Games Workshop can and will change what they like. Fluff has been retconed before and it will happen again let me assure you. I have no problem with it. To be honest I don't see why anyone should have a problem with changes to the background.

PS: sometimes I get my spelling wrong. I'm dyslexic. live with it. I have to.

Irbian
05-08-2010, 13:50
What´s with the tempusfugitive? It has guess stats before or something?

ArtificerArmour
05-08-2010, 15:22
I heard GW were going to release an army that had special rules that made them thrash marine armies.

They get special rules that mean they dont get ATSKNF.

They all ignore their power armour and make them reroll invulnerables.

They get a minus to all their reserve rolls.

They have to reroll all succesful attacks and cant go within 6in of the characters.

And SMs dont get any benefits at all.

Oh wait, that would be silly! wouldn't it...?

It's official, GW hate the concept of daemons, they never wanted to make them a 40k army. They were a cheap buck that required no thinking. I hate GW, every codex they release make daemons even less competative. I don't want to win every game, I just don't want to lose every game horribly because my opponant takes the 5pt item of unthinking that screws with my deployment.

MadCowCrazy
05-08-2010, 15:23
Im surprised noone has asked this but will there be assassins in the codex? What abour Radical Inquisitors with daemonhosts?

Bestial Fury
05-08-2010, 15:40
I heard GW were going to release an army that had special rules that made them thrash marine armies.

They get special rules that mean they dont get ATSKNF.

They all ignore their power armour and make them reroll invulnerables.

They get a minus to all their reserve rolls.

They have to reroll all succesful attacks and cant go within 6in of the characters.

And SMs dont get any benefits at all.

Oh wait, that would be silly! wouldn't it...?

It's official, GW hate the concept of daemons, they never wanted to make them a 40k army. They were a cheap buck that required no thinking. I hate GW, every codex they release make daemons even less competative. I don't want to win every game, I just don't want to lose every game horribly because my opponant takes the 5pt item of unthinking that screws with my deployment.

Ahhhh, yellow drenched corn flakes and a side of atomic sized Hyperbole.

synack
05-08-2010, 15:53
I'd love to hear whats happening with daemonhosts, if anything. They always seemed like a nice idea, but not very well implemented.

Nekrodamus
05-08-2010, 16:08
I heard GW were going to release an army that had special rules that made them thrash marine armies.

They get special rules that mean they dont get ATSKNF.

They all ignore their power armour and make them reroll invulnerables.

They get a minus to all their reserve rolls.

They have to reroll all succesful attacks and cant go within 6in of the characters.

And SMs dont get any benefits at all.

Oh wait, that would be silly! wouldn't it...?

It's official, GW hate the concept of daemons, they never wanted to make them a 40k army. They were a cheap buck that required no thinking. I hate GW, every codex they release make daemons even less competative. I don't want to win every game, I just don't want to lose every game horribly because my opponant takes the 5pt item of unthinking that screws with my deployment.

What if they use the opportunity and bring an (repair-)update for the Daemons simultaneously?

HeroFox
05-08-2010, 16:19
I heard GW were going to release an army that had special rules that made them thrash marine armies.

They get special rules that mean they dont get ATSKNF.

They all ignore their power armour and make them reroll invulnerables.

They get a minus to all their reserve rolls.

They have to reroll all succesful attacks and cant go within 6in of the characters.

And SMs dont get any benefits at all.

Oh wait, that would be silly! wouldn't it...?

It's official, GW hate the concept of daemons, they never wanted to make them a 40k army. They were a cheap buck that required no thinking. I hate GW, every codex they release make daemons even less competative. I don't want to win every game, I just don't want to lose every game horribly because my opponant takes the 5pt item of unthinking that screws with my deployment.

Most likely, the Daemonic Infestation rules will come into play and you'll have an Without Number army.

ArtificerArmour
05-08-2010, 16:31
kill point fodder! woo!

I'm just fed up, GW would never bring out an army that universally made space wolves or blood angels rubbish. Or an item that says "always wounds space wolves on a 3+".

If GW were to retcon te daemon codex - great! drop the named heralds points values by 10-30 points and gave them "preferred enemy - grey knights" then you've got a bloody game on your hands but the fact daemons dont get any benefits against them may be fluffy, at a stretch, but not fun!

massey
05-08-2010, 16:35
What´s with the tempusfugitive? It has guess stats before or something?

Tempus Fugitives are a group of guys in England who put on these large campaigns. They put out campaign books like BoLS used to do, and on occasion, some of the contents of those campaign books are remarkably close to things that have yet to be released. Their Horus Heresy series they just finished had a few special characters appear in it, months before those characters were introduced in new Black Library novels. IIRC, their Blood Angels list had a few things that would later appear in the codex.

I am not saying they are 100% accurate, but I think they've got very accurate sources separate from the ones on Warseer.

Edit:

And I don't think Demons are going to have too hard a time with GK. The Tempus Fugitives list was very, very high points. Fights between the two would be very quick, and very bloody.

Kroot Lord
05-08-2010, 16:43
kill point fodder! woo!

I'm just fed up, GW would never bring out an army that universally made space wolves or blood angels rubbish. Or an item that says "always wounds space wolves on a 3+".

If GW were to retcon te daemon codex - great! drop the named heralds points values by 10-30 points and gave them "preferred enemy - grey knights" then you've got a bloody game on your hands but the fact daemons dont get any benefits against them may be fluffy, at a stretch, but not fun!

To start off with, if you hate Games Workshop, why are you on this forum?

Anyways, beside that little point, you don't even know for sure if this is the case with the new codex. Furthermore, you don't know how expensive Grey Knights will be. Moreover, you don't know what special rules will be implemented to give Daemons a benefit against Grey Knights. Finally, about two thirds of the Daemons codex ignores armour saves, which is the Grey Knight's only defence, and it looks like Grey Knights will be very expensive, so Daemons will probably outnumber them considerably, making sure that every casualty is a great defeat for the Grey Knights.

Ominous Anonymous
05-08-2010, 16:46
Is anyone else having trouble getting the pdf to load? I've got Adobe updated but it won't load any page beyond the first.


kill point fodder! woo!

I'm just fed up, GW would never bring out an army that universally made space wolves or blood angels rubbish. Or an item that says "always wounds space wolves on a 3+".

So what you're saying essentially is "I have no idea what I'm talking about."

massey
05-08-2010, 16:54
Is anyone else having trouble getting the pdf to load? I've got Adobe updated but it won't load any page beyond the first.



Yeah. Save it, and then open it. Should work then.

Ignis
05-08-2010, 17:04
Hell o

My first post, coulnd't just sit still and read :)!

First off: Thanks to Stickmonkey and Harry!

And lots of questions:
- Are there any infos on the fodder? Would hate so see my Exorcists not legal anymore.
- There stats are rumored to be like the SM sergeant, does that inculde or exclude True Grit or will they also get Counter Attack or the like?
- Are there any rumors if they get Krak / Frak grenades?
- NFW are PWs or FWs but they still get the +2, since the whole ranking system was only regarding PW or FW, am I getting that right?
- Is the rumour regarding Shrouding = Nightfight still accurate?
- Artificer Armour could fluffwise be equal the Aegis armour, since Harry said all GKs have them and that is Aegis, not Artificer?
- Any word on Incinerator changes?

Thanks a lot...

synack
05-08-2010, 17:07
Daemon players need to calm down. In the last codex, daemons killed got sustained assault, which means that any squad killed, could come back into the game, from the board edge... yes a endless army. So if they really gear Gk vs Daemons, I'm sure they'll put rules in to boost Daemons.

ArtificerArmour
05-08-2010, 17:20
Is anyone else having trouble getting the pdf to load? I've got Adobe updated but it won't load any page beyond the first.



So what you're saying essentially is "I have no idea what I'm talking about."

No, I have as much idea as everyone else. The current grey knights list still does the job the grey knights should do - wail on daemons. Suprisingly. The last tourny I went to I played the only 2 grey knight armies there, who both beat me easily. I'm no world beater, but taking off squads at a time from a squad of 5 marines shooting (one with a flame template that ignores cover and invulnerables) is no fun.

You look at how many armies that GW have redone that have rules that severly affect Daemons. Space marines with the psychic power that makes all invulnerable rerolled. Imperial guard that make all our reserves at -1. Space wolves with a weapon that specifies it wounds all our units on a 3+ regardless of toughness. Small impacts on other armies but major ones for us.

If I know GW, then they'll make grey knights especially powerful against daemons and balanced against everyone else. I will be suprised if they give daemons anything that would make them competative against them. I would like to though, I'd love the idea of going up against a hated foe on the tabletop.

Personally, I don't think grey knights needs redoing. We've enough 3+ running around. But nevermind, that's not the point. I just don't think there's place for an army that is dedicated to the utter destruction of another. It's suppose to be a fun game!

Ominous Anonymous
05-08-2010, 17:53
After reading through the Tempus Fugitives stuff, I'm really hoping the Grey Knight codex doesn't contain any of that. :( That read like Space Marines+1, without any real fluffy rules that made it feel any more like Grey Knights than the Primarch Honour Guard with 1 extra wound tacked on.


:cries:

Not exactly helping your argument here. I'll take this to PMs, though.

ArtificerArmour
05-08-2010, 17:59
Patronising tone aside, I have no arguement, wat I say will not change what GW have had planned in the pipeline for a year. I'm just expressing what many daemon players are feeling.

Souleater
05-08-2010, 18:45
I forget which one, the Grey Knights were presented as fully fleshed SM army. The full gamut, the lot.


Indeed. Chaplains were a 0-3 choice for Ordo Malleus armies in RoC: Slaves to Darkness.

FerociousBeast
05-08-2010, 19:00
ArtificerArmour, you have a point. It's more than a little strange to release an army that in the fluff is a hard counter for another. There's not a graceful solution to this problem, however, that preserves both the fluff and the gameplay. One of them is likely going to have to give, or they will have to put more silly rules in like the current edition's infestation rules.

HeroFox
05-08-2010, 19:09
Design wise it would make more sense if they made GK a standalone army but kept their unique and specialized weaponry vs. Daemons.

Things like Grimoire of True Names, Anointed Weapons, Scared Incense..etc. All of these should add bonuses vs. Daemons and cost extra points to do so. Grey Knights just shouldn't be designed to rock vs. scissors Daemons.. that's just bad balance design.

Souleater
05-08-2010, 19:24
Ordo Malleus were originally anti-Chaos. If they go back to that then gear that works against mortal enemies would be 'standard issue' alone with anti-Daemon gear.

Jackmojo
05-08-2010, 19:26
Design wise it would make more sense if they made GK a standalone army but kept their unique and specialized weaponry vs. Daemons.

Agreed, but its also important to not equate rules which generally affect most armies (say negating or otherwise impacting invulnerable saves) with being specifically anti daemon.

Jack

Kroot Lord
05-08-2010, 19:55
Patronising tone aside, I have no arguement, wat I say will not change what GW have had planned in the pipeline for a year. I'm just expressing what many daemon players are feeling.

What Daemon players? Honestly, the only thing Daemonhunters have against Daemons which is ridiculously overpowered is the special rules which creates a 6" bubble, which, at the moment, is only used by people either tailoring their lists or people who are extremely competetive or, in "friendly"/pickup games, d0uche bags.

Besides, it's not like there's a Codex: Blood Angelhunters, or Codex: Space Wolfhunters, or Codex: Necronhunters. It's Codex Daemonhunters. What else do you expect? They hunt. Daemons. Do you expect them to be just as good against Daemons as against, say, Tyranids? No, of course not. Gaming wise there needs to be a balance, and I am positive that Games Workshop is going to think about that when they redo/thought about that when they redid Grey Knights.

Finally, another thing you'ren't (yes- you'ren't=you are not. No- it does not make grammatical sense :)) taking into consideration is that previously, about 8 years ago when the Daemonhunter codex was redone, Daemons were only a small part of the Chaos Space Marines codex, and most often it'd consist of only a smaller percentage Daemons which made the "over powered" anti-Daemon effects and equipment only good against a portion of the opponent's army, so that he would just send his Khorne Berserkers against Grey Knight Unit A instead of his Seekers of Slaanesh.

Summed up: tough luck, what's to be expected from an out of date, terribad, overpriced, undermanned codex against the ONE army they're meant to be good at; a feat they aren't even that great at?

rodmillard
05-08-2010, 20:29
I would hope that stuff like Grimoire of True Names, Sacred Incense et al comes "hard wired" to the characters, like the Iron Halo on a Smurf captain. That would go some way towards resolving the balance issues - yes, GK are hard as nails BUT they have to take wargear which is only useful against a few enemies. It would stop some of the min-max builds and list tailoring, if nothing else.

Ominous Anonymous
05-08-2010, 20:35
I would hope that stuff like Grimoire of True Names, Sacred Incense et al comes "hard wired" to the characters, like the Iron Halo on a Smurf captain. That would go some way towards resolving the balance issues - yes, GK are hard as nails BUT they have to take wargear which is only useful against a few enemies. It would stop some of the min-max builds and list tailoring, if nothing else.

That's a terrible idea.

John Vaughan
05-08-2010, 23:37
Do you expect them to be just as good against Daemons as against, say, Tyranids? No, of course not.

Actually, taking down Hive Tyrants with a Grand Master is still my favorite thing to do with my GK, aside from doing the exact same thing to a Bloodthirster. Force Weapon that DOESN'T cause ID, but removes from the table? I think that should stay with the new book. It's OP, and I like it.

Ominous Anonymous
06-08-2010, 02:55
You are allowed to keep the old Force Weapon rules but only if you do the same for Storm Shields, Psychic Hoods, and Assault Cannons. :evilgrin:

That is to say, I think we can get on well enough without it.

Emeraldw
06-08-2010, 03:04
Grey Knights have to be a generalist army. While I admit that having some flavorful anti chaos rules would be cool, they shouldn't be the primary focus or all weapons that work on deamons, work on everything else just as well. There really isn't any other way they can go with the army as a whole. To do otherwise would destroy it as an army in the game.

PostinDirty
06-08-2010, 03:23
i'm still a proponent of grey knights NOT being a fully fledged army on their own. it was a cool idea when i first saw it, but they really should just be powerful add-ons to the other imperial armies

ForgottenLore
06-08-2010, 03:30
"Proponent" means you are in favor of it, so you just said you are in favor of GKs being a fully fledged army on their own.

IS that what you meant to say?

synack
06-08-2010, 06:37
taking into consideration is that previously, about 8 years ago when the Daemonhunter codex was redone, Daemons were only a small part of the Chaos Space Marines codex, and most often it'd consist of only a smaller percentage Daemons which made the "over powered" anti-

This isn't quite true. There was the Eye of Chaos codex, which let you run a pure daemon army, as well as some other cool stuff.

Souleater
06-08-2010, 08:03
Why are some people against GK dreads?

They get to fight on for a while against Chaos and then get interred on Titan with full honours.

Yang110
06-08-2010, 10:22
You can make the GKs anti-Daemon without giving them too many specific items that they have to take. Just make them tough and worth the high points cost, and make them reasonably good at dealing with inv. saves, eternal warrior and deep-striking. I'm sure they can be balanced.

IAMNOTHERE
06-08-2010, 10:38
Currently GK are paying for lots of anti daemon stuff that they can't use. What I'd like to see more of is a turn to anti chaos or to make it more ubiquitus - anti warp.

So anyhting that uses the warp - why that's pretty much every army out there - bar tau.

Do you use the warp?
Are you a possible conduit for possession?
Hearing voices in your head?

Then GK have a have a bolt round just for you!

With psy being quite buffed in 5th I think this is the way it's going to go. All I'd like to see is more prevalent high strength weapons.

Memnos
06-08-2010, 10:53
I have a confession to make.

I like Chaos Daemons.

That said, I should also point out that Chaos Daemons are hilariously bad as an army. If someone wants to make an Anti-Daemons army, there are far better things to take than Grey Knights.

Like... For instance... Any of the really successful armies out there.

Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Guard. Heck, since 'Drop Pod' armies do exactly what Daemons do but more reliably(You don't have a 1/3 chance of having the wrong half of your army show up and you won't ever mishap on top of someone and they have better saves and weaponry and vehicles and special powers), there are others that are better Daemons than Daemons.

Frankly, if they made Grey Knights -really good- against Daemons, but only well-balanced against most other armies, I would cheer. This would mean that mostly friendly gamers would play them as the odds of facing a Daemon army is relatively tiny.

misterfiveseven
06-08-2010, 13:20
I have a confession to make.

I like Chaos Daemons.

That said, I should also point out that Chaos Daemons are hilariously bad as an army. If someone wants to make an Anti-Daemons army, there are far better things to take than Grey Knights.

Like... For instance... Any of the really successful armies out there.

Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Guard. Heck, since 'Drop Pod' armies do exactly what Daemons do but more reliably(You don't have a 1/3 chance of having the wrong half of your army show up and you won't ever mishap on top of someone and they have better saves and weaponry and vehicles and special powers), there are others that are better Daemons than Daemons.

Frankly, if they made Grey Knights -really good- against Daemons, but only well-balanced against most other armies, I would cheer. This would mean that mostly friendly gamers would play them as the odds of facing a Daemon army is relatively tiny.

correct me if i'm wrong, which is completely possible, but didn't a demons army just win 'ard boyz?

on topic, army-wide buffs like forcing opponents to reroll successful invulns make a lot more sense than any army specific rules.

Campbell1988
06-08-2010, 15:16
Or they could put in some cute fluffy items that are good against Daemons but in a more competitive environment would be kinda useless as Daemons are rare. (Fantasy has things like that, Helm of the Skavenslayer and the like). You'd probably only take them in amusing games against Daemons.

CitizenNick
06-08-2010, 15:22
This isn't quite true. There was the Eye of Chaos codex, which let you run a pure daemon army, as well as some other cool stuff.

I think you're confusing the Storm of Chaos Campaign in WHFB, with the Eye of Terror campaing in 40K.

Storm of chaos allowed you to build all-daemon armies, but that was for WHFB. Eye of Terror had the Lost and the Damned army list, which allowed you to build armies of chaos mutants and traitor guard.

The present Daemon codex is the first time you could have an all-Daemon army for 40K.

Vhalyar
06-08-2010, 16:54
Why are some people against GK dreads?

They get to fight on for a while against Chaos and then get interred on Titan with full honours.

It's in their official background that they hate the concept of dreadnoughts; it's not a player invention. If anything it would translate really well into a gameplay element, which is why quite a few players are clamoring for this particular bit of fluff to stick around.

massey
06-08-2010, 17:09
Despite the fact that Forge World has been making GK Dreads for years now.

Souleater
06-08-2010, 17:13
And I'm sure I've been using GK dreads for several years now. Hence my confusion.

Inquisitor_Eljer
06-08-2010, 17:29
Yes, GK currently have Dreads, but as a Heavy option if my memory serves?

I'm hoping we get the option to add Venerable Dreads as Elite, or Special Libby Dreads as Elite.

I like the sound of the Psycannon's profile changing...X profile if moved, or Y profile if stationary (increased range, small template, etc.)...definitely sounds like 'options'.

I'm also interested in seeing if the Incinerator will also have different profiles...likely not...it would be interesting to see a Flamer profile that ignores Invulnerable saves, and with a Psychic test it acts as a Heavy Flamer that ignores Invulnerable or some-such.

I'm eager to see the new Force Org, the new Special Characters, etc. My GK force is mostly pure, but can call upon 2 squads of Chimera mounted IST, so hopefully them remain viable.

All in all I'm liking the rumors of the new codex, but truthfully I was hoping for something really special like mounted Knights as fast attack (doesn't have to be a flyer, but that would be special).

I think with the StormRaven, a Decent of Angels style rule, Out the Heretic, etc., we'll have play options, and I'm hoping that GW does provide some Anti-Tank options for us as well.

Thanks to all for the rumors.

Justicar Valius
06-08-2010, 18:19
GKs do not apreciate being put into a dreadnought, they want to do their service and die and be laid to rest in the catacombs of Titan rather than stuck in the half death of entombment of a dreadnought fighting and dieing and seeing so many of your bretheren die, every battle.

I'm sure there will be some Inquisitorial element or guard element that my Kaskirin can be used for and if they can't take rhinos hopefully the Grey knig or somthing else can.

Souleater
06-08-2010, 19:17
Where is this anti-dread fluff, please?

Ominous Anonymous
06-08-2010, 19:20
P. 32 of the Daemonhunters codex:


It is a rare thing indeed for a Grey Knight to be consigned to the living tomb of a Dreadnought at the end of his services to the Emperor - they hope only to rest in the cool dark of Titan for all eternity. However, a few are sorely wounded enough that to continue in the Emperor's path as a man is impossible and they accept the necessity of pursuing it as a man-machine instead.

So they do have some Dreads, but they are very rare. I wonder if they'd skip regular Dreads altogether and just go straight to Venerable Librarian Dreads.

IAMNOTHERE
06-08-2010, 19:23
There is no anti dread fluff apart from what's in the codex. The only ones to be offered the honour of dreadnaught are seriously injoured heros who can assent to being interred.

Nothing about them not useing dreads. If anything it's more of an indication of just hw much they revere their dreads that only Grand Masters and Brother Captains get the offer.

All GK Dreads should be venerable and psychers - Grand Masters if you will.

Ominous Anonymous
06-08-2010, 19:45
Psykers at a minimum. :p

Goatboy
06-08-2010, 20:18
Well its not like regular Space marines(with the exception of the Iron Hands) ever want to be put in a Dread either.

Kroot Lord
06-08-2010, 23:48
Sure they do, for they'll be serving the Emperor!

BladeWalker
07-08-2010, 00:06
Saying that GK should not have Dreads based on the quote from the Codex is way off, if anything that quote gives the reasoning behind why the DO exist. I've never understood that argument.

Like Goatboy said, it's not like anyone WANTS to be trapped in an iron sarcophagus for 100's of years of unlife. It's done out of a sense of duty unfulfilled, to keep fighting against evil.

I am excited about the new book, I've been waiting for it for years. I look forward to the return of all the current units and the addition of several new and exciting ones.

Ironmonger
07-08-2010, 01:31
There is no anti dread fluff apart from what's in the codex. The only ones to be offered the honour of dreadnaught are seriously injoured heros who can assent to being interred.

Nothing about them not useing dreads. If anything it's more of an indication of just hw much they revere their dreads that only Grand Masters and Brother Captains get the offer.

All GK Dreads should be venerable and psychers - Grand Masters if you will.

Yeah, I don't really see your reasoning here. The anti-dread (or rather the rarity of dread) fluff is right there. As well, I know that at least in the 2nd FW book they talk about a Grand Master Orias being mortally wounded, but then holding out for 3 days whilst he wrestled with whether or not to allow it to happen to him. In the end, as death was overtaking him, he gave a faint nod, which was taken that he would forgo his greatest desire to join his comrades on Titan, and instead allow himself the sacrifice of living death. It was considered a great honour as well as a terrible sacrifice.

Sorry, this adds nothing to the rumours. Basic intuition based upon all available empirical data reasons that a corollary can easily be drawn between the forthcoming GK 'dex and the use of libby dreads in an Elite slot...

Ominous Anonymous
07-08-2010, 02:28
The big question now I guess is just how big of a footprint the Inquisition will have in the codex. Whereas in Codex: Daemonhunters it focused mainly on the Ordo Malleus with Grey Knights thrown in, I wonder if now in (presumably named) Codex: Grey Knights the Inquisitors will still have a presence (in terms of an HQ, IST as troops, and maybe requisitioned Chimeras/Rhinos, Valkyries and/or Leman Russes) but with the focus on Grey Knights.

MajorWesJanson
07-08-2010, 04:38
For Inquisition support, I'd put Inquisitor/Inquisitor Lord with a more fixed retinue option in Elite, ISTs (as slightly better versions of IG Veterans and the various doctrines they have) with the choice of Valkyries/Vendettas, Rhinos, or Chimeras in Troops, and Assassins in Heavy Support.

PostinDirty
07-08-2010, 05:02
"Proponent" means you are in favor of it, so you just said you are in favor of GKs being a fully fledged army on their own.

IS that what you meant to say?
nope, i just missed a bunch of words in my sentence. that'll learn me to not post on forums whilst at work.

i'm also against the idea of librarian dreads. a silly idea in that it contradicts parts of the fluff surrounding dreads, but *oh well*

Gatsby
07-08-2010, 05:15
Gks don't like being interred in dreads but the ones that are should be amazing, so why we even have NORMAL dreads is a better question than why would we have dread chaplains and librarians. I like the idea of having a GK dread, but make it an uber dread. As it stands a basic GK lasts longer than a dread, with all the anti tank out there my dreads are usually popped turn one.

timsmith
07-08-2010, 09:22
Any rumors on assasins? are they likely to make an apearance in the GK codex?? I would very much like to see these guys as special characters with special character stats and rules and the apropriate points.

Mechdra
07-08-2010, 11:56
What I can feel about GK dread is it will be like BA Librarian Dread. But I hope we get a new mini for the dread. If GK have diffrent design for their termi and power armour, why not a new dread design like those in the pre heresy.

rodmillard
07-08-2010, 12:07
Any rumors on assasins? are they likely to make an apearance in the GK codex?? I would very much like to see these guys as special characters with special character stats and rules and the apropriate points.

There were some rumours doing the rounds a while ago about "customisable" assassins, who could pick wargear from a list. I'm not sure if anyone was able to confirm or deny at the time - and for all we know they may not be for the GK book anyway...

Ominous Anonymous
07-08-2010, 12:50
i'm also against the idea of librarian dreads. a silly idea in that it contradicts parts of the fluff surrounding dreads, but *oh well*

You mean the fluff that doesn't exist? :eyebrows:

gwarsh41
07-08-2010, 17:03
kill point fodder! woo!

I'm just fed up, GW would never bring out an army that universally made space wolves or blood angels rubbish. Or an item that says "always wounds space wolves on a 3+".

If GW were to retcon te daemon codex - great! drop the named heralds points values by 10-30 points and gave them "preferred enemy - grey knights" then you've got a bloody game on your hands but the fact daemons dont get any benefits against them may be fluffy, at a stretch, but not fun!

Just think how awesome the next daemon codex will be.

plaguebeareres without number would be insane. GK could turn out to be great against daemons, but not so hot against well, everything else.

boreas
07-08-2010, 21:18
Just think how awesome the next daemon codex will be.

plaguebeareres without number would be insane. GK could turn out to be great against daemons, but not so hot against well, everything else.

I sure hope that's won't be the case. It's already our problem... If I get to pay 65pts a St6 marine model because it auto-kill a daemon by having it in it's LOS, I'll simply sell my GKs. A codex meant to beat another one but under-perform against most others is ridiculous. GKs could have it easier against daemon by getting features that will at the same time help against all other armies (a combination of low AP/ignores Inv. save in shooting and a combination of PW that ignore Inv. saves in CC, for example). But paying for a rule that says "against models with the Daemon rule, blah, blah, blah... would be terrible.

Phil

IcedAnimals
07-08-2010, 21:33
I hope they do the "bonuses to both armies" bit. Yeah its cool you hunt daemons. I shouldn't want to never bring my daemon army out because there is the chance ill be playing GK.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
08-08-2010, 00:34
For Inquisition support, I'd put Inquisitor/Inquisitor Lord with a more fixed retinue option in Elite, ISTs (as slightly better versions of IG Veterans and the various doctrines they have) with the choice of Valkyries/Vendettas, Rhinos, or Chimeras in Troops, and Assassins in Heavy Support.

Yes please.

Also, no Grey Knight Jetbikers? Huzzah!

Lord Mayor Of Y'ha-nthlei
08-08-2010, 00:54
Once upon a time you'd be lucky to have a single squad to GK to deal with your daemon troubles. I'd like it if deamon players facing them got things like without numbers on some units to represent the scale and severity of the demonic threat. GK aren't deployed in every instance of daemonic incursion, they're used to counter the very gravest demonic threats. they are scarce and valuable. the =I= doesn't send them off willy nilly. fluffwise it's almost always a small group of GK versus an endles tide of daemons

Sgt John Keel
08-08-2010, 02:12
I hope they do the "bonuses to both armies" bit. Yeah its cool you hunt daemons. I shouldn't want to never bring my daemon army out because there is the chance ill be playing GK.

On the other hand, no Dæmons present in the theatre of war is pretty much a win for the GKs. And you wouldn't want that, right … ?

IcedAnimals
08-08-2010, 08:19
Not sure I understand your meaning? I said that grey knights should be balanced against all armied like a normal army. And then when fighting Daemons they get some bonuses. However the daemons they are fighting also get bonuses to make up for it and make the game more fluffy.

Commissar Davis
08-08-2010, 17:11
Daemons will probably have some rule for having Greater Daemons in there own codex, maybe something like "without number" or whatever.

I am hoping that Inquisitors are removed from C:GK altogether. Much better for them to have an entirely different codex. GK don't just do Daemons, but marines that are thought to have turned or been tainted as well. Maybe they will just get Preferred Enemy - Daemons, and not much more.

Campbell1988
08-08-2010, 23:27
Daemons will probably have some rule for having Greater Daemons in there own codex, maybe something like "without number" or whatever.

I am hoping that Inquisitors are removed from C:GK altogether. Much better for them to have an entirely different codex. GK don't just do Daemons, but marines that are thought to have turned or been tainted as well. Maybe they will just get Preferred Enemy - Daemons, and not much more.

This is true. I think it was the Fire Hawks (can't remember name though, they burst into flame without actually being burned during their first battle) that were all but wiped out by a Grey Knight strike force. So they do fight things other than daemons. And quite effectively at that if they all but destroyed a Chapter within it's own Keep.

MajorWesJanson
08-08-2010, 23:42
fluffwise it's almost always a small group of GK versus an endles tide of daemons

Actually, they do seem to show up in decently large groups quite often. Vraks has a couple dozen. Grey Knights has Alaric with about 25-30 in a Strike Cruiser and around a hundred in the first attempt on Garg, led by three Grand Masters. Armageddon II has a hundred Terminators vs Angron. Dark Creed has a Grand Master and full company committed against a Word Bearers assault.

Sgt John Keel
09-08-2010, 01:07
Not sure I understand your meaning? I said that grey knights should be balanced against all armied like a normal army. And then when fighting Daemons they get some bonuses. However the daemons they are fighting also get bonuses to make up for it and make the game more fluffy.

It was just a joke.

Inquisitor_Eljer
09-08-2010, 01:09
Regarding 'Without Number'...what if Demon generals can assign 'Without Number' to 1 unit for each GK squad (PA & TA)? If my Grey Knights force has 5 GK squads and 4 IST squads then a Demon general gets to nominate 5 units to get the 'Without Number' special rule (with restrictions or only specific units being eligible or something)?

Just thinking out-loud.

Thanks,
Inqusitor Eljer

PostinDirty
09-08-2010, 01:43
You mean the fluff that doesn't exist? :eyebrows:

que? what fluff that doesn't exist? i was referring to the fluff that was established back in 2nd ed, that the marines in dreads have diminished cognitive abilities. centuries of suspended animation between the periods they're awake for active duty have left them vaguely aware of their surroundings and some what senile.

not the sort of thing to have as conduits of dangerous warp energy, where even more conscious marines are constantly keeping themselves in check to make sure they don't succumb to chaos.

but yeah, i realise these are conclusions i've drawn myself. its not that anywhere before the current BA dex was it stated that librarian dreads didn't exist. Now they do, I know i have to accept it.

and Grey Knights will of course have to have them. better ones too. It'd be rad to have a dread that'll be able to go toe-to-toe with a MC for a change