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A Shadow
03-08-2010, 01:38
As I am sure we all know (or know that Games Workshop would like us to know), the Ultramarins are strict devotees of the Codex Astartes, paragons of a Space Marine Chapter and examplars of Astartes virtues. Feel free to laugh.

Now, in the strict following of the sacred book the Ultramarines banish Captain Uriel Ventriss and his Sergeant for daring to think outside the book, even though it proved to be the thing that won the battle. Harsh perhaps, but entirely within their dogmatic mindset.

However, the formation of the Tyrannic War Veteran Corps within the Chapter is not censured in anyway despite being described as a dramatic depature from established doctrine.

I am interested in knowing what the views of others are on this evidence of hypocrisy.

Plebian
03-08-2010, 01:44
Do you want to tell Cassius he is a heretic? The man is mostly metal.

Who is this Captain, and what did he do?

Lord_Crull
03-08-2010, 01:45
Now, in the strict following of the sacred book the Ultramarines banish Captain Uriel Ventriss and his Sergeant for daring to think outside the book, even though it proved to be the thing that won the battle. Harsh perhaps, but entirely within their dogmatic mindset.


Not quite. Ventris left his company on the planet. A Captain's role is with his company and leading his men. Not gallvinating off planet with the Deathwatch.



However, the formation of the Tyrannic War Veteran Corps within the Chapter is not censured in anyway despite being described as a dramatic depature from established doctrine.


Where are you getting this from? The Marine codex describes it as a ''perhaps a minor divergence'' that is ''tolerated by the Chapter Master''. It's hardly a drastic departure from established doctrine especially when one considers that only a small percentage of Ultramarines actually are War Hunters. In fact the original Tyranid Hunters article has several Captains arguing against the formation of the War Veterans. The formation itself was only accepted after they purged Tyranids on Espandor. And even then I doubt the hard-line Ultramarine conservatives like it.

A Shadow
03-08-2010, 03:50
I agree that the role of the Captain is primarily to lead his company from the fore, but last I checked the majority of people rewarded those who took gambles that paid off, not exiling them. The mindset of "follow orders no matter how stupid they are" might apply to some guard regiments but Space Marines are supposed to show initative and take advantage of changing circumstances.

It's from a White Dwarf article from a few years ago when they first brought them out. I can't recall the exact quote but it's something like "such specialisation was completely unheard of for the Ultramarines and aginast the tenants of the Codex Astartes". And it is drastic because it is a departure from doctrine, the Ultramarines have been following that book to the letter for 10,000 years and suddenly feel the need to diverge?

I am aware that many sought to have their formation blocked, but the fact that it went through is what I am raising. Also, if by small percentage you mean half the First Company then yes, 50 out of 1000 is small. But it is half of the greatest warriors in the Chapter.

AndrewGPaul
03-08-2010, 07:54
I always saw the Codex Asartes as being a more ... vague isn't the word I'm looking for, but it'll do. More a collection of knowledge than a rigid prescription of what to do. It does codify Marine doctrine, but that doctrine is very malleable - in a lot o cases it's basically "do what needs to be done".

As for the Tyrannic War veterans, isn't the quote more along the lines of "Some members of the Chapter feel it's against the tenets of the Codex"? If you're basing your argument on a quote, you might want to be sure of what it actually is before arguing. It's in the 4th edition Codex Space Marines, if I'm not mistaken.

Malice313
03-08-2010, 08:11
Getting your home world trashed and your first Company slaughtered sometimes makes even the most dogmatic pedant rethink doctrine.

A Shadow
03-08-2010, 08:13
Yeah, I can't actually remember the exact quote which is annoying.

But by the "do what needs to be done" then why was Ventris exiled? In one of the short stories in Legends of the Space Marines there's the story os Ventris' trial by the Ultramarine Chapter Council and the charges are basically "No following the codex".

narrativium
03-08-2010, 08:14
I figure that occasionally a Chapter will be involved in battles against a specific foe to the extent that they will have veterans whose experience will be invaluable and that while the Chapter should remain structured to face anything, those specialists can be gathered together and sent where needed if the threat priority demands it.

If Tyrannic War Veterans are Codex, it suggests the possibility that similar specialist formations may have occurred during other great wars against other foes.

Hellebore
03-08-2010, 08:26
All space marines aspire to be Ultramarines - So we get to tell other chapters to do what we say not what we do. We don't have to practice what we preach.

The Uriel Ventris thing I don't recall him leaving the planet. I thought he just flew across it to the hive ship and jumped inside. It's been a very long time since I read the book though.

But the reason they kicked him out was for disobeying the codex - that was the charge.

Hellebore

MvS
03-08-2010, 08:27
Personally I just think the writer was belabouring the "strict adherence to the Codex" element too much.

It doesn't seem to fit with what I understand the Ultramarines, and Space Marines more generally, to be.

Corvussanctus
03-08-2010, 09:29
Well, the Ultramarines are heavyl influenced by the classical greek and roman culture.
And they were very strict about following orders. A roman consul even had his own son executed for attacking the enemy against his orders, despite that this attack won the battle. (So Ventris got away real cheap. Calgar getting soft after all?).

MvS
03-08-2010, 09:39
True, but there's a difference between going against orders (a discipline issue) and a commander improvising outside of Codex Astartes. Flexibility is an important element of battle planning and management, and if we're saying that the Codex orders against flexibility, then there's something very wrong with the Codex and it doesn't seem worthy of the Primarch who wrote / compiled it.

ashc
03-08-2010, 09:48
I actually like the idea of fighting factions within the Ultramarines, those ultraconservatives and the ultraliberals. I think it brings some interesting internal conflict and a possible flaw to an otherwise fairly dull Chapter.

TheOverlord
03-08-2010, 09:50
While this had me a little confused as well, but I assume that Ventris had actually completely disobeyed stuff that was in the codex itself, whilst the tyranid hunters was simply adding on to the codex, which seems to be perfectly fine since the codex was modified by several well noted generals of the Imperium.

Zweischneid
03-08-2010, 10:52
I don't really have a problem with the Ultramarines occassionally struggling with their "own" Codex and Code.

As pointed out in last weeks threat (sic) on this topic, the paragon struggling with his own principles is a fairly common, tried and true narrative in fantasy, sci-fi and other fiction.

I.e.: All knights aspire to be Lancelot, King Arthur's most true and loyal knight. Lancelot himself however is (in some versions of the story) a deeply conflicted character, and potentially the closest to betraying his king (or at least having a cosy time with the queen)."

Furthermore, any story about "Codes" and "Principles" usually runs up to the point where they are subsequently ignored when a large-enough-threat comes along. It is a common plot device that you can see, in the small, in any other Hollywood movie "i.e.: whatever happens, never, ever cross the streams".

I think the latter in particular moves well into the 40K universe. The Codex was written 10.000 years ago as the result of the Horus Heresy. Is it still "appropriate" in fighting the menace of the Tyranids? Do the Ultramarines fall into following their rules and principles slavishely; basically going the way of the (dying) Eldar in following ancient routines and rituals just because. Or do they "adapt" and "survive" by changing with the times?

All in all? I wouldn't call Ultramarines having issues with their own Codex, including internal fights between the "traditional" and the "let's change things" faction, "hypocrisy". I would call it excellent fluff and storytelling.

TheDarkDaff
03-08-2010, 10:52
The Tyrannic War Veteran's are definately a break from the Codex which demands the 1st company to be able to confront any foe with the same level of ability. But the simple fact is that the Ultramarines had just had the fight of their lives against the Nids so a great many of their Marines that could have been promoted to help rebuild the 1st company had a great deal more first hand knowledge about the bugs than other foes of the imperium.

Hellebore
03-08-2010, 11:08
All in all? I wouldn't call Ultramarines having issues with their own Codex, including internal fights between the "traditional" and the "let's change things" faction, "hypocrisy". I would call it excellent fluff and storytelling.

Written as hypocrisy. ;)

What seems very out of character is that the Ultramarines are the ones diverging. They're the ones who say it is the true path. In order to diverge they have to admit that their Primarch was deficient in his creation. For 10,000 years they've never thought that regardless of the enemy. It seems very out of left field the Ultramarines would come to that conclusion. Chapters with more generations of division perhaps, younger ones, or whathaveyou.

But having the Ultramarines themselves diverge is like having the Police force instititute an Anarchist dogma.

Hellebore

Lord-Caerolion
03-08-2010, 11:13
And this is why the Ultramarines seeing the War Veterans as wrong is just plain idiotic. Funnily enough, if you spend lots and lots of time fighting against a single sort of foe, you'll pick up little tricks to take them down easier. A 'normal' Veteran Squad has picked up general tricks, but no specific ones, due to the fact that they're assumed to have fought many different foes, where the War Veterans fought primarily against Tyranids.

Asking the Tyrannic War Vets to be less specialised is basically asking them to be a worse shot. "Excuse me, Brother Bob? You've been killing those Hormagaunts just a little too well. We're supposed to be a Codex Chapter! Try to miss a little, or something, but don't be so good!"

Lord_Crull
03-08-2010, 11:14
I agree that the role of the Captain is primarily to lead his company from the fore, but last I checked the majority of people rewarded those who took gambles that paid off, not exiling them. .

That does'nt matter. He left his men on the planet and most of the company got destroyed. He could have sent someone else.


The mindset of "follow orders no matter how stupid they are" might apply to some guard regiments but Space Marines are supposed to show initative and take advantage of changing circumstances.


There is a difference between taking initative and abandoning your post.



It's from a White Dwarf article from a few years ago when they first brought them out. I can't recall the exact quote but it's something like "such specialisation was completely unheard of for the Ultramarines and aginast the tenants of the Codex Astartes".


Could you give me the source for that article?



And it is drastic because it is a departure from doctrine, the Ultramarines have been following that book to the letter for 10,000 years and suddenly feel the need to diverge?


Not, it's hardly drastic when the Marine codex describes it as ''perhaps a minor divergence'' implying that it may not even be that.



I am aware that many sought to have their formation blocked, but the fact that it went through is what I am raising.

You criticsied that it was censured, and it was. Modifying the Codex Astartes after much revision is hardly new.


I Also, if by small percentage you mean half the First Company then yes, 50 out of 1000 is small. But it is half of the greatest warriors in the Chapter.

Go re-read the fluff. One of the reasons for the War Veterans was to bring the First Company back up to strength. It's because of the Tyranids that they had so many Marines who qualified for veteran status.

However to be honest we don't actually see them that much. The codex Order of Battle does not list them in the organizational table and they are not mentioned at all in Chapter's Due, wee the First Company is deployed en-masse.



But by the "do what needs to be done" then why was Ventris exiled? In one of the short stories in Legends of the Space Marines there's the story os Ventris' trial by the Ultramarine Chapter Council and the charges are basically "No following the codex".

That was true. Meanwhile the creation of the War Hunters was done after much debate of the Codex Astartes itself.



I think the latter in particular moves well into the 40K universe. The Codex was written 10.000 years ago as the result of the Horus Heresy. Is it still "appropriate" in fighting the menace of the Tyranids? Do the Ultramarines fall into following their rules and principles slavishely; basically going the way of the (dying) Eldar in following ancient routines and rituals just because. Or do they "adapt" and "survive" by changing with the times?


Not quite. The Codex Astartes of 10,00 years ago is not the codex of today.

Index Astartes Ultramarines


The Codex Astartes laid down the tactical doctrines of the Imperium's fighting forces and was to grow and evolve over the millennia into a massive tome that detailed everything from battlefield stratagems to uniform markings for various squad types

The Codex has changed before. The problem here is more of the intent really. Flexiblity vs. specialisation. What did Guilliman intend? etc, etc?


While this had me a little confused as well, but I assume that Ventris had actually completely disobeyed stuff that was in the codex itself, whilst the tyranid hunters was simply adding on to the codex, which seems to be perfectly fine since the codex was modified by several well noted generals of the Imperium.

Pretty much this. The Tyranid War Hunters are a modification of the codex as is at best and a minor divergence as worst. Ventris's crimes were not so much as diverging from the Codex as flat out ignoring it's dicates repeatedly.


But personally I think this is a tired thread. You can easily search past discussions in searchie.

Zweischneid
03-08-2010, 11:15
Written as hypocrisy. ;)

What seems very out of character is that the Ultramarines are the ones diverging. They're the ones who say it is the true path. In order to diverge they have to admit that their Primarch was deficient in his creation. For 10,000 years they've never thought that regardless of the enemy. It seems very out of left field the Ultramarines would come to that conclusion. Chapters with more generations of division perhaps, younger ones, or whathaveyou.

But having the Ultramarines themselves diverge is like having the Police force instititute an Anarchist dogma.

Hellebore


Not really.

1. Ultramarines are the only Chapter that could have this archetypical story of "Knight at odds with his own Code" narrative. For any other Chapter, it would simply be "different than the UM". It is a powerful story only for the UM themselves precisely because it is the one that embodies its principles.

2. Also, I don't really get your Police force comparison. It is more about a Police Force struggling internally on how to best "police" a city. The Police presumably wants to keep crime low, the UM want to keep the Imperium save. Their aim doesn't change. It is more an issue of.. say.. young policeman in the NYPD questioning the value of the "broken window" approach, even though it's been heralded all through America (and beyond) as a revolution in how to do effective Police Work pioneered most famously in NY.

Hypocrisy implies a purposful and malign intend to deceive. Nothing about what I have read about Tyranid War Veterns and Cassius give any indication of that. It all seems written as a fairly honest struggle of doubts, diverging experiences & principles being challenged/questioned.

Sephiroth
03-08-2010, 11:33
Don't really see the need for them myself. Seems more like Cassius is going to veteran battle-brothers "Do you hate Tyranids? Even more than Orks and Eldar? You do? Good, then you're in your own special unit now!"

Could have just as easily been represented by saying Ultramarine veteran units get the Preferred Enemy - Tyranids Special Rule. :p

Hellebore
03-08-2010, 11:39
Hypocrisy implies a purposful and malign intend to deceive. Nothing about what I have read about Tyranid War Veterns and Cassius give any indication of that. It all seems written as a fairly honest struggle of doubts, diverging experiences & principles being challenged/questioned.



Hypocrisy is the act of persistently professing beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that are inconsistent with one's actions. Hypocrisy is thus a kind of lie.

A hypocrite is not by default rationally malign. A hypocrite is simply someone who declares X to be correct but does Y. How they rationalise this is irrelevant.

In the case of the Ultramarines many believe it is a justified divergence which somehow procludes them from being at fault and thus absolves them of diverging from that which they espouse.

Very few hypocrites actually realise they are hypocrites. Everyone has a rationalisation for what they do.

All your argument boils down to is 'THEY belive they are justified' which is a completely subjective rationalisation and has no relevance to an objective hypocrisy.

The Ultramarines espouse one thing and have done the opposite. That is hypocrisy. Whether it brings up conotations of a the struggling knight or not is completely irrelevant. By the definition, they are hypocrites. Your parents are often hypocrites but few people are going to call them evil for doing that. They just provide a rationalisation and people accept it.

Hypocrisy is not an intent based concept, it is action based. It revolves around the espousal of one concept and the performance of another. regardless of the reasons, someone who does that is being hypocritical.

Hellebore

Zweischneid
03-08-2010, 11:45
We might just have different definitions of hypocrisy then.



The act or practice of a hypocrite; a feigning to be what one is not, or to feel what one does not feel; a dissimulation, or a concealment of one's real character, disposition, or motives; especially, the assuming of false appearance of virtue or religion; a simulation of goodness.


I would not, to be honest, agree with yours. But that is likely beyond this thread.

[edit-- sorry]
But yes, I do think hypocrisy is very much intent based. It is, by definition, purposfully deceptive. And if it is not malign, it is at least directionally deceptive in that you are aware of feigning standards you do not live up to.

Promoting change you believe to be an improvement over the status quo, even if you embraced the status quo before, is not hypocrisy. It is, at the very least, an honest mistake. More commonly, it would be called "learning" and perhaps even "innovation".

Lord Zarkov
03-08-2010, 12:16
OED:
Hypocrisy:
"The practice of claiming to have higher standards or more laudable beliefs than is the case"

Doesn't really matter why you're claiming those higher standards, just that you are.

Zweischneid
03-08-2010, 12:22
OED:
Hypocrisy:
"The practice of claiming to have higher standards or more laudable beliefs than is the case"

Doesn't really matter why you're claiming those higher standards, just that you are.

Yes doesn't matter why you're claiming it. But it does matter that you rationally perceive (and believe) to uphold a facade superiour to reality.

It is only hypocrisy if Cassius perceives himself to have fallen "below" higher standards that he upholds anyways. If he believes his "Tyranid War Veterans" to be a "good", "necessary" or otherwise "higher" or "improved" standard than the previous Codex, he's not a hypocrite (though he might be misguided).

ashc
03-08-2010, 12:31
You can be a hypocrit without knowing you are one.

Zweischneid
03-08-2010, 13:26
You can be a hypocrit without knowing you are one.

That doesn't make sense. If you can be a hypocrit without knowing simply be "changing" or "re-evaluating" a position you previously held to be the best, than literally everyone who has ever changed his oppinion about anything would be a hypocrit. If that is true, the word (and moreso the accusation) becomes meaningless.

Tell me how, in your opinion, you could be not a hypocrit?

Karl MkVI
03-08-2010, 13:30
Who is this Captain, and what did he do?

seriously? Uriel Ventris; protagonist of the Ultramarines series, by Graham McNeill.

havent read them myself, and have little interest in doing so, but they're very well-known.

Hellebore
03-08-2010, 13:42
Yes doesn't matter why you're claiming it. But it does matter that you rationally perceive (and believe) to uphold a facade superiour to reality.

It is only hypocrisy if Cassius perceives himself to have fallen "below" higher standards that he upholds anyways. If he believes his "Tyranid War Veterans" to be a "good", "necessary" or otherwise "higher" or "improved" standard than the previous Codex, he's not a hypocrite (though he might be misguided).

You're basically saying that you can only be hypocritcal, doing one thing whilst espousing another, if you are consciously aware of this and KNOW you are a hypocrit.

That isn't true at all. MOST hypocrits DENY they are a hypocrit as I said, by RATIONALISING their hypocrisy. 'Although it may look like hypocrisy, it's not really on account of X'. Rationalising your hypocrisy makes YOU feel like you aren't one, but it doesn't suddenly lift the definition from you. It simply means that from your rationalised perspective you're not a hypocrit.

You are still a hypocrit to an outside observer, whether you rationalised it or not.

You're not a hypocrit if you do what you espouse. If you do the oposite, realise you are a hypocrit and continue, then you are a hypocrit. If you are told you're a hypocrit, refuse the definition because of an internal rationalisation, you are STILL a hypocrit.

Self denial/rationalisation does not absolve one of hypocrisy because the definition is not based on your subjective opinion of yourself, its based on your objective actions.

To turn your own argument around, that would mean NO ONE would ever be a hypocrit, because all they have to do is convince themselves that they aren't. The human brain is GREAT at self deception, rationalising hypocrisy is pretty much the defining point of cognitive dissonance.

Hellebore

Zweischneid
03-08-2010, 13:49
...

You're not a hypocrit if you do what you espouse.

...

Self denial/rationalisation does not absolve one of hypocrisy because the definition is not based on your subjective opinion of yourself, its based on your objective actions.

Hellebore

Ok. But see... Does Cassius firmly believes in, or espouse the need for Tyranid War Veterans? Or is he doing mere self-rationalization? Would Cassius be a hypocrit if he would not have formed the Veteran's Unit out of respect for the Codex despite believing it to be necessary? By your definition, yes. So how can he be a hypocrit for standing up to his conviction?

This distinction doesn't strike me as a meaningful one. How do you decide whether a person honestly believes that change is needed and one who merely self-rationalizes this need in an act of hypocrisy?

And yes, I believe a good many people quite rationally pretend to better/higher/superiour standards knowing they do not live up to it (or even try). Just because the human brain can potentially rationalize everything, doesn't mean that rational deception for malign intends doesn't exist.

Kozbot
03-08-2010, 17:20
So since all veterans are supposed to be equally good at everything one that is slightly better at hand to hand fighting then he is at shooting should be executed for defying the codex in regards to veterans? What about a marine who was part of a 20 year war purging some orks. Is he in violation of the codex because he knows where an orks vital organs are but he doesn't know as much about the hrud or necrons?

The argument seems to me to be "The Ultramarines are breaking their own doctrine because they have groups of guys who fought Tyranids a lot and got good at it!" Which doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. If the Ultras led an defense against eldar for a few years they'd probably end up with a lot of guys who were better at fighting eldar then against chaos marines. That's just what happens in combat.

There's got to be more to this than what I'm seeing because I don't think anyone would argue that the codex mandates that you can never learn a trick that makes killing one kind of enemy easier unless you had learned that trick for all enemies.

RunepriestRidcully
03-08-2010, 18:15
The Tyranid hunters, and the division it caused in the ultramarines is intersting, and when adds to the hints of a possible chapter civil war between Agemenmon and Sicarius, adds the whole Roman politics and backstabing aspects to the Ultramarines, ok so the backstabbing will not be that much, but to to see the Ultramarines have the darker parts of Rome and Greece would be intersting, will be good for A) whilst marines, they are based on humans, and no human is perfect, and the idea of Calgar dealing with the idea of going against the codex, that perhaps the work that his chapter and whole life have been dedicated to, may indeed not be so brilliant as before. So does the Tyranid war Veterans make the Ultra's hypocrites, yes, but it does so out of nessercery, and as each of the other 1st founding chapters have an inner turmoil, so do the ultramarines.

massey
03-08-2010, 18:23
The question is really going to come down to, can you create formations and specialized units that aren't specifically mentioned in the codex? Hard core conservatives are going to say "no". More free thinking types are going to say "yes". Tyranid hunters aren't outlawed by the codex, they just aren't mentioned at all.

It's like a religious argument in a church. "Can we do things this way?" "Well it doesn't say XYZ is done like that in the Bible, so no." "But it doesn't say you can't do it either..." When I was a kid, and would go visit my grandparents in the country, their church didn't use a piano. The church we went to in the city did. Heretics. You see, the early church (back in the first few decades of Christianity) didn't use instruments when they had their services. Or, at least, the Bible doesn't mention that they used them. So some real-life churches today have decided not to use any instruments. In fact, some of those demoninations have split from one another because one group wanted to have a piano and the other group did not. You've got to be really really serious to care about such a small difference. Who takes every little thing so seriously that this is a real issue?

The Ultramarines care.

The Ultramarines debated this topic, and ultimately decided it was okay. Their interpretation is that they are not violating the codex. The fact that it was so important to them shows how conservative they are. Most other chapters would have gone ahead and done it without even blinking. It doesn't make the Ultramarines hypocrits. It just means they ultimately decided that the codex allowed for the formation of specialized groups like that. They came down on the side of having a piano.

w00tm0ng3r
03-08-2010, 19:44
Not quite. Ventris left his company on the planet. A Captain's role is with his company and leading his men. Not gallvinating off planet with the Deathwatch.


Frankly, I always liked to think that Ventris got banished for the stupidity of not seeing the obvious loophole: he could have simply gotten the Deathwatch team to second him to them. It is well within their power to requisition captain level space marines to their ranks, and (theoretically, of course, in the same way that Inquisitors are theoretically all powerful) there wouldn't be a damn thing he could do about it even if he didn't want to join them. The Emperor's Deathwatch acts with the authority of the Emperor himself; their call supercedes the authority of an astartes captain.

As for the tyrannic war veterans, I don't think the new codex mentions them so they may have been retconned.

Jonny_N
03-08-2010, 20:10
Im not sure on this. Im sure that the codex mentions something about learning to adapt to the needs of war. As the first company is free to select their own weaponary, learning new tactics to fight a new kind of threat, im sure it is allowed, maybe not used too often, as thinking isnt encouraged too much in the 41st

massey
03-08-2010, 20:24
Frankly, I always liked to think that Ventris got banished for the stupidity of not seeing the obvious loophole: he could have simply gotten the Deathwatch team to second him to them. It is well within their power to requisition captain level space marines to their ranks, and (theoretically, of course, in the same way that Inquisitors are theoretically all powerful) there wouldn't be a damn thing he could do about it even if he didn't want to join them. The Emperor's Deathwatch acts with the authority of the Emperor himself; their call supercedes the authority of an astartes captain.

As for the tyrannic war veterans, I don't think the new codex mentions them so they may have been retconned.

Umm, nope. Marine chapters are independent. They do not have to give in to the authority of the Inquisition or the Deathwatch. Marine chapters are normally willing to go along with requests from other Imperial forces, and normally try to remain on good relations with the guys flashing the "I" badge. But they aren't required to play nice.

Merus
03-08-2010, 20:32
Is there a single faction in this game, aside from possibly Orks and Nids, that isn't hypocritical?

I find it strange that the writers are apparently trying to give the Ultramarines more depth, and people are calling them out for it. I've gotten to the point where I think people only get on Warseer to be argumentative and complain! :(

On topic, I don't think realizing that their codex fails to properly cover a threat that Guilliman never encountered is hypocrisy. Perhaps they're starting to realize that their codex doesn't have an answer to every problem; this is being shown through characters like Uriel and Cassius.

MvS
04-08-2010, 07:46
I find it strange that the writers are apparently trying to give the Ultramarines more depth, and people are calling them out for it. I've gotten to the point where I think people only get on Warseer to be argumentative and complain!
I sympathise with your point, but to be fair, the intention to give depth isn't always enough.

I mean making a Space Marine a secret pacifist, or longing to marry and be a father, or having a crush on one of his battle brothers could all be argued to add 'depth' to the character in question. The point is whether any of these seems approrpiate and/or believable to the character.

Mostly appropriateness and believability come down to the quality of the writing though, not always the specific backstory 'fact' that has been revealed.

FlashGordon
04-08-2010, 11:39
i like how people discuss a volume of books noone in this universe have read.

MvS
05-08-2010, 09:21
i like how people discuss a volume of books noone in this universe have read.
The point isn't that we haven't read it. The point is that it doesn't exist at all and so can contain pretty much anything we say.

The debate is over what such a text would 'rationally' contain. :)

MagosHereticus
05-08-2010, 11:40
maybe the ridiculous blue smerfs can take some advice known for thousands of years by the emperors most faithful servants


The Tactica is not meant to be taken too literally though. In war, circumstances change too quickly to refer every decision to a book. Its virtue is that it provides reference for new officers and there is always a chance that guidance can be found on a critical issue.
Imperial Tactica

(also our book is bigger, much bigger)

MvS
05-08-2010, 11:42
Bravo, and well said! :)

Lord_Crull
05-08-2010, 14:44
maybe the ridiculous blue smerfs can take some advice known for thousands of years by the emperors most faithful servants


Like what? You do realize that the whole War Hunters issue was more over intent than actual RAW doctrine do you?



(also our book is bigger, much bigger)

Not quite. The Codex itself is far too big to be memorized by a single marine. You need an entire company of Marines to memorize it properly. And that's with the photographic memory and hypno-indocrtination of the Marines.

While we know the Tactica Imperium may be larger we don't know if it really is or how exactly bigger it is.

A Shadow
06-08-2010, 04:37
I think that you are getting confused MagosHereticus. The Index Astartes was penned by Gulliman as the "Bible" for Space Marines. The Tactica Imperialis is an Imperial Guard thing, similiar to the Codex, but is added to over the centuries.

FlashGordon
06-08-2010, 09:28
I think that you are getting confused MagosHereticus. The Index Astartes was penned by Gulliman as the "Bible" for Space Marines. The Tactica Imperialis is an Imperial Guard thing, similiar to the Codex, but is added to over the centuries.

The codex astartes was one of the things he wrote. If i remember correctly he also have written part of the Tactica, how the imperium should be ruled, etc etc. He more or less took the part of temporary emperor untill he gave the power back to the humans(the high lords)

Edit: oh and the tactica is supposed to be a compilation of books, not a single volume.

A Shadow
07-08-2010, 05:52
Books, treatises esays etc. Tactica is just the broad name for it.

LexxBomb
08-08-2010, 00:48
a bigger hypocrisy would be the Honour company that ties many of the Ultramarine successor chapters together is against the codex because it essentially gives calgar the power of a warmaster

x-esiv-4c
08-08-2010, 00:54
I always get a huge kick whenever I think about the chief librarian of the UM being half Eldar. Adherents to the codex indeed!

MvS
08-08-2010, 07:55
a bigger hypocrisy would be the Honour company that ties many of the Ultramarine successor chapters together is against the codex because it essentially gives calgar the power of a warmaster
Well if you think about it, any Chapter that has it's own world that also has a Planetray Defence Force is probably going against the Codex Astartes - certainly in spirit and perhaps also within the letter of the law too.

The whole point of breaking up the Legions and I suppose completely separating the Astartes from the other branches and command structures of the Imperial armed forces was to prevent the sort of abuse that was seen with Horus.

But then there seems to be no limit on the size of a Planetary Defence Force, so conceivably a Chapter Master could have 1,000 Astartes battle brothers, plus a few hundred more in terms of the Chapter's HQ, Honour Guards, Reclusiam, Librarius and the Techmarines of the Chapter Forge, plus however many millions of troops and fancy hardware that makes up the PDF - and I would imagine this would also include some inter-planetary 'naval' assets too.

This makes for an alarming force by any measure and not one that seems to be the intent of the Codex Astartes... unless Guilliman only cared about the size of Space Marine legions and didn't think that non-Space Marine forces (however big) were worth worrying about. Which if so would mean he wasn't as bright as a Primarch should be, hence I don't buy it.

FlashGordon
08-08-2010, 08:33
we all know that the emperors wish was that the primarch's and the astares would become leaders of men when the crusade was over. I just think that that was one thing Guilliman did not want to change.

Wyrmwood
08-08-2010, 10:20
Also, we have seen (in the Badab War) the capabilities of several Chapters banded together, with support from a PDF/several PDF forces and a small naval fleet - which was put down, not easily but quite quickly and without *much* harm.

Lord_Crull
09-08-2010, 00:45
a bigger hypocrisy would be the Honour company that ties many of the Ultramarine successor chapters together is against the codex because it essentially gives calgar the power of a warmaster

100 Space Marines is not a Legion or anywere close.:eyebrows: That is nowhere near the power of a Warmaster. Not by a long shot.


I always get a huge kick whenever I think about the chief librarian of the UM being half Eldar. Adherents to the codex indeed!

I was not aware that Tigurius was half-eldar.:p


Well if you think about it, any Chapter that has it's own world that also has a Planetray Defence Force is probably going against the Codex Astartes - certainly in spirit and perhaps also within the letter of the law too.
it.

How so? There is nothing in the Codex peventing chapters from having PDF.

Merus
09-08-2010, 00:52
I was not aware that Tigurius was half-eldar.:p

I believe he's referring to the Librarian before Tigurius. If I recall it was an Ultramarines Librarian who had a father who was an Eldar mercenary, who was serving the Imperium at the time.

Lord_Crull
09-08-2010, 00:55
I believe he's referring to the Librarian before Tigurius.

I know what he is talking about. The half-eldar Librarian was a 1st Edition invention who served for about thirty years in the ''current'' timeline. (In a chapter that had an entirely different command structure and in a setting greatly different than today's setting)

Although I would point out that going by that very same peice of 1st Edition fluff it was fine for half-aliens to serve in the Astartes (Who were made up of drafted chemically brainwashed prisoners)

I mean take Calgar for instance. In that very same peice of fluff he was recruited in 947 from a Hive fleet's prisoners.

Son of Sanguinius
09-08-2010, 00:56
In the elder days, the Ultramarines were said to have a half-Eldar Chief Librarian.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Lord_Crull. Strangely, I feel honored.

Merus
09-08-2010, 01:00
I know what he is talking about. The half-eldar Librarian was a 1st Edition invention who served for about thirty years in the ''current'' timeline. (In a chapter that had an entirely different command structure and in a setting greatly different than today's setting)

Although I would point out that going by that very same peice of 1st Edition fluff it was fine for half-aliens to serve in the Astartes (Who were made up of drafted chemically brainwashed prisoners)

Point it out to him brochacho. I was just making sure you knew what he was making reference to. ;)

Son of Sanguinius
09-08-2010, 01:10
Did you just use "brochacho"?

Shame on you. :D

Lord_Crull
09-08-2010, 01:17
Actually upon checking upon the White Dwarf Iliyan Nastase ( The character) actual title is Chief Librarian Astropath. He was actually recruited by the Astra Telepathica after the Badab war and then served a term of service with the Dark Angels before being appointed by the Telepathica to serve as Macragge's chief of communications. All in the year of 987. Appearantly this was common practice in 1st Edition.

So.......yeah, they did't even have an actual Librarius like we have now. (But then again the entire chapter was organized completely differently as well, along with basicly everything else)

Merus
09-08-2010, 03:06
Did you just use "brochacho"?

Shame on you. :D

I have birth to brochacho, my good man.

I will feel no shame. None!

MvS
09-08-2010, 08:55
How so? There is nothing in the Codex peventing chapters from having PDF.
Well we don't know how much or how little the Codex has to say about the division of military powers and how much a Chapter Master is permitted to call upon as a part of his position as a Chapter Master. As I indicated, there's a fine line between having a force purely to defend a Chapter-planet and having a force so vast that it can join with the Space Marines operationally beyond their home system.

I mean, if there isn't a separation of power - if Chapter Masters aren't forbidden from commanding any number of non-Astartes soldiers, tanks, battleships and perhaps even Titan variants in addition to their own Chapter of Marines - then Guilliman's efforts were somewhat flawed.

If he wanted to be certain that no one man has the power to command the might of a Space Marine Legion then perhaps, perhaps, the Codex Astartes does this (although with Chapters like the Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Black Templars and the Unforgiven, which all either have more than a 1,00 Marines already or else have loyal second and third founding Chapters that will happily take commands from their founding Chapter), although it's worth bearing in mind that the original Legions could be of any size, large or small, so 'Legion' becomes just a word. 1,200 Marines could be considered a Legion in the old days.

But what is the point in trying to assure than no one person (or Space Marine) has the power of a Great Crusade style Legion when firstly any Chapter Master with a home-system of planets (like the Ultramar system) could call on all his Astartes assets as well as however many billion other troops and extraordinary military hardware from the planets he commands, and where secondly any 'approved' warmaster (Macharius, Solon, etc) can command vast forces made up of multiple Astartes Chapters, Imperial Navy, Imperial Guard, Titan Legions and so on?

In other words, I think that the 'modern' Imperium often bends the edicts of the post Heresy miltary reorganisation, or else Guilliman built in a LOT of wriggle room that can, under some circumstances, seem to be counter to the orginal reason for the reorganisation - to make sure no one person could have the military power and influence of Horus ever again.

x-esiv-4c
09-08-2010, 11:37
As much as you really hate it Crull, it's still canon :)

We've gone down this road before and I seem to remember that it didn't end well for you.

Lord_Crull
09-08-2010, 12:32
As much as you really hate it Crull,


Who said I hate it? I was merely correcting you by pointing out to people to exact context of the person in question.


it's still canon :)


I'm afriad we will have to agree to disagree on this one.



We've gone down this road before and I seem to remember that it didn't end well for you.

How so? I don't remember it being like that at all. Besides, the mods came in and told us to behave anyway.

Iuris
09-08-2010, 13:12
GW never said everything was canon. What they said was more like: "We're not going to bother with maintaining canonicity".

I must say, however, that the expulsion of Uriel Ventris felt particularly weak to me. It just seemed to be smashed into the plotline with a big mallet to let the author have them walk around all alone hero style instead of in the company of a company.

MvS
09-08-2010, 19:53
GW never said everything was canon. What they said was more like: "We're not going to bother with maintaining canonicity".
A profound and annoying difference.


I must say, however, that the expulsion of Uriel Ventris felt particularly weak to me. It just seemed to be smashed into the plotline with a big mallet to let the author have them walk around all alone hero style instead of in the company of a company.
Yes, it was a 'Bloodquest' mission all over again but the author likes Ultramarines and it wasn't exactly the same storyline, so...