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TheDireAvenger
05-08-2010, 01:07
With all the rumours about the most elite of the elite army the Grey Knights I wanted to know if traditional game-rules wise if they had any advantage against Chaos Space Marines.

I know they get a LOT of anti-Chaos Daemons stuff but Chaos Daemon players in 40k are extremely rare almost next to that mythical Dark Eldar player while CSMs are everywhere. I'd say there are probably 10x more CSM players out there probably all running Khorne Bezerkers :eyebrows:

So do and will the Grey Knights get any specific Anti-Chaos Space Marine stuff or will they only be good against real Daemons.

HeroFox
05-08-2010, 01:09
Sacred Incense if my memory is correct.. is still good vs. Chaos in the current Ed.

No clue about the new book though.. but they probably won't get anything special considering that S6 Power Weapons will make mince meat out of most MEQ anyway.

Wishing
05-08-2010, 01:12
Since their schtick is fighting daemons specifically, not chaos in general, I don't think you can assume they will get anything that will work against CSM (other than their ubiquitous daemon princes). But you never know.

LonelyPath
05-08-2010, 01:13
I've not seen the most recent CSM codex for a good while, but if they still have possessed vehicles then GK have a couple of vehicle upgrades that also effect them. As for the next GK codex, no idea since it's still rumours.

HeroFox
05-08-2010, 01:14
Anointed Weapon, I believe, gets extra bonus +D6 for Pen vs. Possessed Vehicles.
Going off memory once again.

Warmaster Bill
05-08-2010, 01:33
Other than the benefits against deamon princes, possessed vehicles, and lesser and greater deamons, we're just going to have to wait until the next codex to find out.

chromedog
05-08-2010, 02:01
Current rumours (Bols) are that the NEW GK will have:
Nemesis Force Weapons are said to be standardized now:
-Power armor users count as a power weapon that wounds daemons on a 2+
-Terminator users count as a force weapon with wounds daemons on a 2+
Most squads have anti psyker powers
Librarian Dreads with Grey Knight weapon options
Psycannon is said to be: 24" S:6 AP:3 with anti deamon/psyker abilities.
Allies are gone

Brettila
05-08-2010, 03:19
Yeah, other than the actual demon stuff in the CSM army I don't forsee anything extra. However, we can hope they will actually make DH good against demons. The current rules are silly. Everyone gets greater demons. Demons get to keep coming back. Khorne demons rock their world, and kill them mightily. An army specialized to kill demons ought to do it well after all.

RunepriestRidcully
05-08-2010, 08:56
Where did you get those rumers from, they sound like it will just be kick in the crotch for Grey Knights, we struggle to deal with dreads now at S6, making us S4 will not only worsen that, but make them just silver marines, and the Psycannon, nice to know we won't be able to really harm someone out side of 24" If these rumers are true, I hope they take 3+ years before releasing them.

Lord Damocles
05-08-2010, 09:07
we struggle to deal with dreads now at S6, making us S4 will not only worsen that
Or maybe any new list would include ways of dealing with vehicles beyond running up and hitting them..?

Gorbad Ironclaw
05-08-2010, 09:19
Or maybe any new list would include ways of dealing with vehicles beyond running up and hitting them..?

I wouldn't count on it. It's 40k afterall. Running up and hitting stuff with your first/sword is the king!

Zweischneid
05-08-2010, 09:25
Well. Irrespective of the fluff, it will be hard to make Grey Knights overtly good against Daemons (or, for a matter, CSM) and still have them balanced overall.

If your gaming group has the following 5 armies; each ... say .. 1500 pts.

1. Grey Knights
2. Chaos Space Marines
3. Daemons
4. Eldar
5. Ultramarines

.. than any conceivable match-up in standard missions should result in a roughly 50% chance of victory for either side, irrespective of the army.

If you make Grey Knights too good against Chaos, that'll put Chaos players back. If you upgrade Chaos to fall in line again, they'll be too good against Eldar or Ultramarines. If you make Grey Knights only good against Chaos (i.e. by downing their abilities elsewhere), they'll struggle fighting Eldar or Ultramarines.

AndrewGPaul
05-08-2010, 11:36
In my opinion, they dropped the ball by making the Grey Knights an army in the first place. The Grey Knights should be specialised for fighting daemons, and thus not necessarily any use against other threats.

Sadly, by making them an army, they had to make the Daemonhunters army more generic than it should be, in order to let people fight against Orks or Space Marines.

I'm not sure what a good solution would be. You can't reduce the Grey Knights back to an allied force, only to be used when facing a Chaos Daemons army, because there are quite a few players with a full army that you don't want to **** off.

Zweischneid
05-08-2010, 11:45
In my opinion, they dropped the ball by making the Grey Knights an army in the first place. The Grey Knights should be specialised for fighting daemons, and thus not necessarily any use against other threats.

Sadly, by making them an army, they had to make the Daemonhunters army more generic than it should be, in order to let people fight against Orks or Space Marines.

I'm not sure what a good solution would be. You can't reduce the Grey Knights back to an allied force, only to be used when facing a Chaos Daemons army, because there are quite a few players with a full army that you don't want to **** off.

That doesn't make sense.

So you had some genius coming up with those Grey Knights after reading one to many historical novel on the Spanish Inquisition, they're cool, people love them, company would make lots of money, everybody'd be happy. But hey.. oh noes.. let's not make an army out of it after all. It would violate the "purity" of the background?

Seriously... who cares? People don't play Grey Knights because the hunt Daemons. People play Daemonhunter Grey Knights because they happen to be the most elite of the Imperium's vast amount of "elite" and the most "gothic" in an Imperium designed around flying Cathedrals in Space.

AndrewGPaul
05-08-2010, 12:06
So, you think that the armies should just ignore the background? Grey Knights are a force designed purely to fight Chaos incursions. They don't fight Orks, they don't fight renegade Imperial troops (unless they're obviously Chaos tainted), etc.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that you can produce an army list designed for a specific purpose. The Grey Knights were exactly that for over a decade, after all.

I agree that it's too late to rectify the mistake, and now for better or worse the Grey Knights are a generic army. I don't agree that it's a good thing.

Zweischneid
05-08-2010, 12:12
So you are saying it would have been better to not publish the Grey Knights as an army despite the obvious vast popularity they enjoy and the great many people who love painting, modelling and playing them just because you'll need to fudge with the fluff a bit?

LonelyPath
05-08-2010, 12:34
SO they dropped the ball with the Slaves to Darkness book? Sorry, I couldn't resist being a brat, lol. Grey Knights should have a army list though. While in the fluff they might not amass in such numbers often, they will and the do so a full army list is feasible. Also, almost any other army in the 40k universe can fall under the sway of the Ruinous Powers, often without even knowing it, plus there are conflicts of interest over who wants what and for what purpose which can also have them coming to blows.

You don't need GK to fight daemons or chaos all of the time and you also need not come up with some Daemonic Influence cast over each battle, use some imagination and the possibilities are endless :)

chromedog
05-08-2010, 12:37
Where did you get those rumers from, they sound like it will just be kick in the crotch for Grey Knights, we struggle to deal with dreads now at S6, making us S4 will not only worsen that, but make them just silver marines, and the Psycannon, nice to know we won't be able to really harm someone out side of 24" If these rumers are true, I hope they take 3+ years before releasing them.

January 2011.
That's the forecast date.

They've been in dev for the last year and a half.
Rewritten twice.

Besides, you use meltabombs for taking out vehicles, you don't whack them with majik sticks (unless you are eldar, because their majik sticks are better).


because there are quite a few players with a full army that you don't want to **** off.
I wouldn't put it past GW to do that exactly, AndrewGPaul. They've done it before a couple of times.

IF they do completely neuter the GK, it just means my pretty models will go into the display cabinet. If they do it to my eldar and IG, these too will join them. I will not be replacing any of these armies with another one. I will just play less games with SM.

Should they then neuter marines, then hope that you already have another game to play as it means that GW are already through the door and it has well and truly hit them in the ****.

Simo429
05-08-2010, 12:48
Daemon princes aren't actually daemons though are they? Avatars are though

LonelyPath
05-08-2010, 13:03
Daemon princes aren't actually daemons though are they? Avatars are though

They've obtained daemonhood, but they didn't start off that way. You are quite right about the Avatar though, definately a daemon. Now if you'll excuse me I got to polish my armour, put it on, annoint my weapons and see that that Eldar God Git :P

Grand Master Raziel
05-08-2010, 15:58
Nemesis Force Weapons are said to be standardized now:
-Power armor users count as a power weapon that wounds daemons on a 2+
-Terminator users count as a force weapon with wounds daemons on a 2+


Will GKT NFWs ignore Chaos Daemons' universal EW - or the CSM Daemon Prince's, for that matter? If not, then having force weapons becomes pretty much immaterial.


Yeah, other than the actual demon stuff in the CSM army I don't forsee anything extra. However, we can hope they will actually make DH good against demons.

I have a slight disagreement with you here. DH should not be good vs daemons. They should be good vs everybody while having abilities that are thematically good for taking on daemons. For instance, Grey Knights could have some kind of bubble power that penalizes any unit that deep strikes within their aura. Good against any army, thematic against daemons.


Where did you get those rumers from, they sound like it will just be kick in the crotch for Grey Knights, we struggle to deal with dreads now at S6, making us S4 will not only worsen that, but make them just silver marines, and the Psycannon, nice to know we won't be able to really harm someone out side of 24" If these rumers are true, I hope they take 3+ years before releasing them.

We'll just have to start sticking a thunder hammer in every GKT squad. Hey, look at the bright side, at least that guy will probably get a 3++, too!

Stouty
05-08-2010, 16:19
I really hope that they leave out all the demon specific stuff when they come to redo Grey Knights, and not just because I rather like my Chaos Demons and don't feel that they need another kick in the balls.

No, giving significant bonuses against specific opponents tends to make those armies impossible to price appropriately as they're either being charged too much most of the time, or not enough against their sworn enemies. For example, let's look at the Demon Hammer which costs 20% more than a regular Thunder Hammer for no benefit against anybody unless they have have the "demon" label (which only really pops up in a CD army), in which case the bloody thing strikes at initiative order and becomes one of the best close combat weapons in the game.

This is not to say that Grey Knights should be useless against demons, there are ways of making them an appropriate nemesis that also let you price them fairly in a more competitive environment, just target things that demons have that are not specific to demons. For instance, Demon Hammers could force the enemy to re-roll successful invulnerable save or to pick up an idea a previous poster had, why not let Nemesis Force Weapons ignore EW? This is perhaps the only way to make Grey Knights feel as impressive as they should do: the straight fact is that Grey Knights will play most of their matches against non-demon opponents, even CSMs will probably only have a couple DPs at most. All that will happen if you give Grey Knights foe specific rules is that your games against CDs will become very dull and one sided.

mrln68
05-08-2010, 16:37
In a perfectly spherical universe though, having ability which are only useful against specific armies can be priced.

If there are an equal number of Orks, Eldar, Daemons, SM, IG, Tau... you can figure out how much of an advantage that the weapon gives in tournament play where you might face several opponents over the course of a weekend. While you will stand a better chance of winning against daemons for a Ordo Malleus army or Tau/Ork/Eldar for an Ordo Xenos army the added cost figured into the miniatures will give you lesser power versus normal armies.

Either way though - for me it is mainly about new models and new fluff...mostly the models though. I generally play with other rules now.

Kallas
05-08-2010, 16:38
I'll wieght in on my views as to what NfW should do when EW is about (bare in mind I used to play gk with guard):

When using the nfw's force weapon special, simply instead of instantly blatting an ew off table, they inflict d3 (or even d6) wounds.

Thus allowing them to whack a ew hard or wipe them out but not be reiable but more effective than regular force weapons none the less.

Also Grey knights has plenty of anti inv save gear already, the anti chaos stuff could be nerfed and not have much effect tbh. Sure the grim of true names allows grand masters to blat greater daemons [as is their intend no less], but annointed weapons was a tad unnneed and so was daemonhammers. Stuff like sacred insense was fine, small effect, small points loss against anything non chaos, and thats how any specialized wargear should be...

Stouty
05-08-2010, 17:08
In a perfectly spherical universe though, having ability which are only useful against specific armies can be priced.

Yes but, without getting too bogged down in theory, it should be pretty clear that if Codex: Ork Hunters was released with loads of special rules to make them deadly against Orks even if you priced them appropriately for the metagame (that is to say that they are priced with the probability of your average match taking place against orks) it would not change the fact that in any one specific game you would be overpowered against orks and underpowered against everyone else.

Balancing points in relation to a metagame like this might make tournament results "fair", but it does not make the average game interesting and you would have to forgive the average ork player for sighing when you unpacked your Ork hunters (since orks are a small minority of the total number of players to balance the metagame you would most likely be more overpowered versus orks than you were underpowered versus everyone else).

mrln68
05-08-2010, 17:42
I agree - that's why it only works in a perfectly spherical universe. In most army lists you have stuff which is really effective against one army and not so effective against others. You also have list choices which are not played (or very rarely played) because of the uber gamer. Other than those who build fluffy armies, they just aren't used.

It is a choice though that each player will need to make for themselves. You risk the chance of facing a specialized hunter army in order to take a well rounded army. The counter point of that is taking a specialized hunter army in order to have an advantage against a small portion of armies. Even then, you are not generally looking at a huge advantage over the army - it isn't an Easy Button.

LonelyPath
05-08-2010, 18:13
I'll wieght in on my views as to what NfW should do when EW is about (bare in mind I used to play gk with guard):

When using the nfw's force weapon special, simply instead of instantly blatting an ew off table, they inflict d3 (or even d6) wounds.

Thus allowing them to whack a ew hard or wipe them out but not be reiable but more effective than regular force weapons none the less.

Also Grey knights has plenty of anti inv save gear already, the anti chaos stuff could be nerfed and not have much effect tbh. Sure the grim of true names allows grand masters to blat greater daemons [as is their intend no less], but annointed weapons was a tad unnneed and so was daemonhammers. Stuff like sacred insense was fine, small effect, small points loss against anything non chaos, and thats how any specialized wargear should be...

So, you're saying that the already nerfed army should be nerfed even further? They already don't fair that well against Daemons thanks to the classification of what Daemons are according to the printed DH codex. yes, you could use the pdf instead, but that's not alot better.

Multiple wound weapons were changed/removed for many good reasons and have not existed since 2nd edition and I doubt they'll ever return again. They were one of the things many players were happy to see taken out when 3rd edition was released.

As for things that effect Daemonically Possessed Vehicles, remember they're Daemons so the GK would have things that effect them also.

barrangas
05-08-2010, 18:24
The problem with a GK army and a Chaos Daemon army is that your no longer get bonuses against a single element of an entire army but an entire army in and of itself. Now you could give massive bonuses against Daemons, or even CSM too, but what's the point if it just means that your opponent might as well just put their army back in the box.

I've got to agree that the abilities should be thematically appropriate, still affective against other armies, and not be extremely advantagous against a specific army. Bypassing invulnerable saves, dealing with EW, and maybe some thematic abilities like a weapon that counts as AP 1 vs possessed Vehicles (not really gamebreaking IMHO) seems the way to go.

I really hope that the rumor that they will negate Chaos Icons within X" is false.

AndrewGPaul
05-08-2010, 20:14
So you are saying it would have been better to not publish the Grey Knights as an army despite the obvious vast popularity they enjoy and the great many people who love painting, modelling and playing them just because you'll need to fudge with the fluff a bit?

Yes. The fluff is what makes the game.

I don't believe there are really that many people who sat there for years saying "well, no Grey Knight army; guess I won't be buying anything from GW, then".

Having said that, go and read my post again. Nowhere am I saying that the Grey Knights should be done away with. They exist as an army now, so we have to live with that and work from there.

mrln68
06-08-2010, 06:09
They exist as an army now, so we have to live with that and work from there.

Tell that to the Squats, Beastmen, Slaan...

One of the biggest reasons GK armies are appropriate is that GK armies appear in fluff fairly often. Armageddon and other campaigns bring out the chrome wearing Space Marines.

I am still not seeing the issue with an army being really good against one (or two...or even three armies in the case of a Xenos themed army) when they will carry a handicap against the rest of the armies they might face. Even if they were to transfer everything from the old DH codex to the current edition and make it apply to everything in the Chaos Daemons codex and a good chunk of the CSM codex (possessed marines, vehicles, princes and the like) they would not become so uber against those armies that they couldn't be beaten by a good player playing one of them.

Sure - the game becomes more difficult, but difficult often is more interesting. If I was looking to see who could win in a 50/50 match up...why not just flip a coin and then have a beer.

Zweischneid
06-08-2010, 09:00
Tell that to the Squats, Beastmen, Slaan...

One of the biggest reasons GK armies are appropriate is that GK armies appear in fluff fairly often. Armageddon and other campaigns bring out the chrome wearing Space Marines.

I am still not seeing the issue with an army being really good against one (or two...or even three armies in the case of a Xenos themed army) when they will carry a handicap against the rest of the armies they might face. Even if they were to transfer everything from the old DH codex to the current edition and make it apply to everything in the Chaos Daemons codex and a good chunk of the CSM codex (possessed marines, vehicles, princes and the like) they would not become so uber against those armies that they couldn't be beaten by a good player playing one of them.

Sure - the game becomes more difficult, but difficult often is more interesting. If I was looking to see who could win in a 50/50 match up...why not just flip a coin and then have a beer.

There are two problems with that:

1.
If the game is "balanced" and "fair" by default, you can still play it "difficult" by using less points then your opponent if you relish the challenge. (say, 1000 pts. Daemons vs. 1500 pts. Grey Knights). If the game is skewed by default however, the option to play "fair" is essentially lost.

2.
Balancing an army specialized against one other army with an eye towards the larger Meta-game might work in a competitive tournament environment where you're just given opponents. However, in this environment, people likely won't care about the fluff and generally not be thrilled to bleed points and their chance of winning simply to a bad (to them) match-up. Go to a high-profile 40K tournament. Take a player who's been working his way up the rankings only to be given a mission/match-up that totally screws him in the semis. Than ask him if he's having "fun".

In a more friendly environment, say a club, pick-up game, store, etc... . People might decline if they know that one game is to their disadvantage. Why would that guy with the beautifully painted, perfectly fluffy, Forgeworld-models-included, Chaos Daemons army spend his gaming-night out to play some Grey Knights he knows will table him. Might just rather play the guy with the Space Wolves over there.

If you like Grey Knights fluff, and you want to play against Daemons; than you need to make sure that those Daemon Players out there (few as they are) would love to play against you!!! If it's fun for Daemon Players to play against Grey Knights, you'll get more games that match the fluff. If it isn't, you'll end up fighting much more Orks and Salamanders with your Grey Knights instead.

In short; Balancing armies asymetrically against the meta-game works in a competitive environment where people don't care. It harms the game in a friendly environment where people would actually like to play fluffy games, campaigns, etc.. .

Zweischneid
06-08-2010, 09:31
Yes. The fluff is what makes the game.

I don't believe there are really that many people who sat there for years saying "well, no Grey Knight army; guess I won't be buying anything from GW, then".

Having said that, go and read my post again. Nowhere am I saying that the Grey Knights should be done away with. They exist as an army now, so we have to live with that and work from there.

Well, first, I know you said that Grey Knights are a given now and all that. I was just .. dunno .. talking hypothetically.

As for "the fluff is what makes the game"; I agree, even though in a likely far more literal sense than you.

There was Grey Knight fluff, it was immensly popular, so it makes sense to "make it a game" for people to play. If fluff makes the game, having popular fluff that doesn't make it into the game is a waste of good paper that would've better remained trees.

mughi3
06-08-2010, 09:54
Back on topic

The real problem is that with the new edition of the games demons are not the same as they were previously so many of the anti-demon stuff does not work as it should. typically GKs are primarly anti demon fighters.

Against regular(chaos) marines they only have a couple really usefull items.

Sacred incense-only one per army now and only affects the units in CC with a character that has it and his squad. -1 initiative to any and all chaos units is nothing to sneeze at but not nearly as good as you would expect from GKs

The other 2 affect demonically possesed vehicles

annointed weapons get 2d6 armor pen and dreads with blessed hulls get +1 armor pen as well as the ageis rule (personal hood with LD 10)

Leez
06-08-2010, 15:21
In the Daemonhunter codex (writtin when there was no Codex: CD, only Codex CSM) they specifically added something to the Chaos player that they got by virtue of playing against Codex: Daemonhunter. It was called Daemonic Infestation. Essentially Daemon Packs, Nurglings, and Daemonic Beasts were granted the Sustained Attack scenario rules. Which meant those units models came back the next turn via a table edge along with a few other restrictions. Now Sustained Attack is no longer in the game.

Of particular interest in the Special Rules section for Daemonhunters we have the following paragraph at the end of page 8 (not available in the downloadable codex):

Designers' Note: The Daemonic Infestation rule is intended to off set some of the Grey Knights' considerable advantages when fighting Daemons. This is done rather than simply making them cost more points, so that they are not penalised unfairly when fighting non-daemonic opposition.

This even fits the fluff. *Queue Ghost Busters sound track* When there's something strange . . .

Plenty of rumors about the nice anti-daemon toys GKs will get but none so far about the anti-GKs toys daemons and the daemonically blessed will get.

barrangas
06-08-2010, 15:47
In the Daemonhunter codex (writtin when there was no Codex: CD, only Codex CSM) they specifically added something to the Chaos player that they got by virtue of playing against Codex: Daemonhunter. It was called Daemonic Infestation. Essentially Daemon Packs, Nurglings, and Daemonic Beasts were granted the Sustained Attack scenario rules. Which meant those units models came back the next turn via a table edge along with a few other restrictions. Now Sustained Attack is no longer in the game.

Of particular interest in the Special Rules section for Daemonhunters we have the following paragraph at the end of page 8 (not available in the downloadable codex):

Designers' Note: The Daemonic Infestation rule is intended to off set some of the Grey Knights' considerable advantages when fighting Daemons. This is done rather than simply making them cost more points, so that they are not penalised unfairly when fighting non-daemonic opposition.

This even fits the fluff. *Queue Ghost Busters sound track* When there's something strange . . .

Plenty of rumors about the nice anti-daemon toys GKs will get but none so far about the anti-GKs toys daemons and the daemonically blessed will get.

The only problem with this, IMO, is that you're no longer changing how part of a codex plays but how an entire codex plays. I rarely used Daemons in earlier CSM codexs, so some one using GK had no affect on how my army was played. Daemons don't have the option of taking non-daemon units and I know I don't like the idea of my army changing how it works because some one is playing X army.

Grand Master Raziel
06-08-2010, 15:56
If the new dex for Gray Knights includes abilities that work specifically against daemons and no one else, it will be a badly designed codex, even if it grants daemons abilities to offset the advantages. That's expecting daemon players to adapt to having an ability that's not in their codex, which they should not be expected to do. Furthermore, history shows us that this approach doesn't work very well, as evidenced by the previous effort, which made Gray Knights the worst army to play against the very kind of force they were thematically supposed to be best against.

Also, specifically anti-daemon options are wastes of points against anyone else, and I'm not a believer in having different lists to play against different armies. For instance, the Sanctuary psychic power could almost completely shut down a daemon army if given to all the characters in a GK list, but is effectively a points-tax against any other opponent. Stuff like that needs to go, and be replaced by things that work against any army, but are thematically appropriate for fighting daemons. A good example of that kind of thing are the Mystics in an Inquisitor's retinue. Thematic against daemons, works against everybody.

Leez
06-08-2010, 16:32
The only problem with this, IMO, is that you're no longer changing how part of a codex plays but how an entire codex plays. I rarely used Daemons in earlier CSM codexs, so some one using GK had no affect on how my army was played. Daemons don't have the option of taking non-daemon units and I know I don't like the idea of my army changing how it works because some one is playing X army.

Well translating the three things effected into todays Codex terms, basically all the troops and fast attack choices from Chaos Deamons get Sustained Assault.

But as far as changing the way an entire codex plays, that's the game as is now. I play the same list differently against different codexes and the different themes a codex brings, giving me an extra ability when facing off against daemon hunters just means I adapt accounting for it, it really doesn't seem like a different process to me.

Don't get me wrong, I hope they don't make the bonus something focused on a specific unit type. Especially at lower point games people may not be taking enough of said specific unit type in their all-comers list to make the attempt at balance successful. I feel as though it would have to be something more diffuse for it to be a successful method.

By the same token not everything in the Daemonhunter Codex is a Grey Knight, even though everything on the table might be depending on the balance within the Daemonhunter codex itself. So, I'd feel as though the game as a whole would be better if Daemonhunters got an equally diffuse advantage over Daemons instead of this and that unit/wargear which all the rumours point at as being the case.

The other route mentioned by Grand Master Raziel and others is that Grey Kinghts end up not being designed to be anti-daemon in any shape or form but fluff-wise. But the dis-connect between fluff and design would probably be so obvious as to be jarring.

In the end I both like and dislike that there is an army out there designed to kill my army. The best hope for balance I think is that when fighting against each other we both end up designed to kill each other.

Grand Master Raziel
06-08-2010, 18:05
The other route mentioned by Grand Master Raziel and others is that Grey Kinghts end up not being designed to be anti-daemon in any shape or form but fluff-wise. But the dis-connect between fluff and design would probably be so obvious as to be jarring.

Not necessarily. Elite units with the right abilities can be thematically well matched against daemons without having abilities that only work against daemons. Again, I point to the Mystics as an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about. The ability to shoot at Deep Striking units as they come in is very thematically appropriate against Daemons, but good against any army. Another good example would be an ability that forces opponents to reroll successful Invulnerable saves (a psy-power for SM Librarians). Potentially useful against any army, but would be very thematic as an anti-daemon power.

Fluff guiding design is all well and good, but giving one army abilities that are only relevant against one other army is bad game design and should be avoided. As a DH player, I don't want to pay an inflated cost for what's already likely to be very expensive and elite units because they have extra abilities that only come into play against Daemons. I also don't want Daemons to get some unbalanced advantage against my DH army because I happen to field those units. Finally, I don't want to feel obliged to throw points away on items that are thematically appropriate but only useful against Daemons/Chaos (the Grimoire of True Names and Sacred Incense spring to mind here).

Leez
06-08-2010, 18:37
Not necessarily. Elite units with the right abilities can be thematically well matched against daemons without having abilities that only work against daemons. Again, I point to the Mystics as an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about. The ability to shoot at Deep Striking units as they come in is very thematically appropriate against Daemons, but good against any army. Another good example would be an ability that forces opponents to reroll successful Invulnerable saves (a psy-power for SM Librarians). Potentially useful against any army, but would be very thematic as an anti-daemon power.

Fluff guiding design is all well and good, but giving one army abilities that are only relevant against one other army is bad game design and should be avoided. As a DH player, I don't want to pay an inflated cost for what's already likely to be very expensive and elite units because they have extra abilities that only come into play against Daemons. I also don't want Daemons to get some unbalanced advantage against my DH army because I happen to field those units. Finally, I don't want to feel obliged to throw points away on items that are thematically appropriate but only useful against Daemons/Chaos (the Grimoire of True Names and Sacred Incense spring to mind here). But the question of balance and points cost still comes up. Mystics are good against a lot of armies, but it's universally awesome against all Chaos Daemons lists. Null Zone from Vanilla SM's is good against a lot of units in armies, but is almost universally awesome against Chaos Daemons. This level of thematic anti-daemon still retains the costing issue of vs one Codex vs. vs all other codexes. If the rumours of wound Daemon on 2+ is true, well, it's universally crap against everything but Daemons.

The difference between the three examples is a matter of degree.

You know what will happen along that route. What would I get that's good against almost all lists but universally awesome against Grey Knights? There will be no end to that sort of niggling question.

With the other method, where both armies get something(s) extra whenever they happen to meet, something diffuse, we can side step the "balanced against which which codex(s) by intent" issue. Even if it's something so incredibly bland like both sides getting Preferred Enemy that works at range and CC.

Vedar
06-08-2010, 19:02
I really hope that they leave out all the demon specific stuff when they come to redo Grey Knights, and not just because I rather like my Chaos Demons and don't feel that they need another kick in the balls.

QFT my brother. Daemon armies have to fight like mad to not get kicked in the teeth most games. If GK come out with some super anti daemon whoopass then Daemon players might as well throw in the towel. I don't mind GK get some fun anti Daemon goodness, but unless Daemons get some kind of boost when playing GK then it would be a game not worth playing.

Someting like All daemon count as scoring and troop units that are destroyed can come back into play on normal reserve rolls.

mrln68
07-08-2010, 03:28
In short; Balancing armies asymetrically against the meta-game works in a competitive environment where people don't care. It harms the game in a friendly environment where people would actually like to play fluffy games, campaigns, etc.. .


Sure - the game becomes more difficult, but difficult often is more interesting. If I was looking to see who could win in a 50/50 match up...why not just flip a coin and then have a beer.

Actually...back in the day...I played both types. Hunters and the hunted. Even did specific armies for the back of the Hunter books (the daemon infested IG list from the Daemonhunters and the the psyker led army from the back of the Witch Hunters book. Still like those rules and play them from time to time. I liked the challenge of things.

One of the reasons I stopped playing 40K and several others I know was the shift towards vanilla armies. Not interested in that. Like I said, I would rather flip a coin and drink a beer instead.

jsullivanlaw
10-08-2010, 20:55
Yeah, other than the actual demon stuff in the CSM army I don't forsee anything extra. However, we can hope they will actually make DH good against demons. The current rules are silly. Everyone gets greater demons. Demons get to keep coming back. Khorne demons rock their world, and kill them mightily. An army specialized to kill demons ought to do it well after all.

I hate the idea of one army designed to kill another one. That doesn't make for fun games. They need to either make the anti daemon stuff fairly minor, or give a daemon player some buffs when fighting grey knights.