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knightime98
05-08-2010, 07:25
So, I played a 2000 point game with a friend of mine.
2k HE v 2k WoC

I even took the liberty of taking the Lore of Metal just to try it out.
I had the following just to see what could happen
Arch Mage lvl 4 - with staff of solidity (avoids first miscast)
Mage level 2 - Scroll that acts as dispel and on 4+ spell can't be cast for rest of game

Noble BSB with Battle Banner (plus d6 combat res).

40x Lothern Seaguard with shields/cmd

20x Phoenix guard w/cmd and banner of sorcery

Lion Chariot

2 RBT

And that's all she wrote for 2k points.

Opponent was also trying out magic and took
2 sorcerers and a bsb/on juggernaught
3 units of chaos warriors one was chosen with banner for eye of the gods favor.
1 Giant
1 chariot
Marks of various degrees. warriors were 5 wide and 3 deep or so.
He took the puppet .. Shocker!
Hell Cannon!

In any event, magic was pretty ineffectual. Just couldn't get anything off.
I did cast the rust armor spell once and that was about it. I cast the final transmutation on a 24 and it was scrolled.

He got first turn and moved up of course. He shot with Hellcannon and did 15 wounds to seaguard. I got one turn of shooting and magic. Combat ensued in turn 2, and this is where the rubber mallet came in.
Meaning that I hit him and Bounced off. The Phoenix Guard did about 6 or 7 wounds he made 5 saves on armor and another 1 on a ward save. Net result 1 wound. He returned the favor on me with about 8 wounds and I took 4. Champion was killed and overkilled by 2 or so. Lost combat and broke, lost the banner of sorcery. The unit did get away and rallied w/o it's standard.

Lothern seaguard shot 22 shots to do 1 wound that was unsaved. Bolt Throwes did 2 wounds to a chariot and 1 wound to a Giant.

Seaguard was in combat and was only able to do 2 wounds or so WITH the support of the Lion Chariot. He made his fear test easily. He returned to me 15 wounds or so. I was not steadfast, and broke. BSB was eliminated by new 8th edition rule, ARch mage, and regular mage were both killed along with the unit being run down. Game was over by turn 3.

I was whipped out really quickly and without any effort by the WoC player at all.

In total he lost 5 warriors, 2 wounds a chariot (which was ready to roll the 2 RBT's), and 3 wounds on the Giant.

All in all, the High Elves really had a poor showing. I was sadly disappointed that they solidly just bounced off... Magic to the tune of 500 points was absolutely worthless. The movement is insane. Turn 2 you are in combat and High Elves just can't compete here.

Not a whine fest, just an observation and my comments are just that. Sure, I could of taken many more other options and list. I don't play the stupid Star Dragon Crutch either or the before you even mention it Teclis bit. Both are very poor sportmanship taboos in my book. If you take these options it means that you are a power gamer looking to win just for that reason only.
I can't remember the last time I took a special character. Maybe in 2007, I think I took Grimgore with my orcs.

The Dragon bit, sure once a year in a 4 or 5k game that's when they would show up. Teclis.. well in a 10k game sure.

Anyhow, this is just my thoughts. Just looking for comments on what has happened to 8th that it allows such a slaughter?
Just my opinion that
Lothern Seaguard are 13pts each
Woc Warrior is 15 pts each.

Warriors run the table and so did the Hell Cannon.. 15 wounds in one shot! Wow! Brutal.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
05-08-2010, 07:42
So you went horde with an elite army. Your opponent brought an anti-horde weapon and beat you.

Rock beat scissor.

AndrewGPaul
05-08-2010, 07:51
Elves without great weapons are rather useless against Dwarves or Chaos Warriors in my experience. It's not so much the Strength, but the lack of an armour save mod that hampers them.

xxRavenxx
05-08-2010, 08:00
Obvious things:

500 points of magic is indeed worthless. 1/4 of your army should not be wizards. 1/8 at best.

You had no greatweapons. Good game. Next time, roll into his units of wariors with some swordmasters, and get about 9 wounds with minimal saves allowed, and watch them crumple...

wamphyri101
05-08-2010, 08:05
Its just you im afraid.

Firstly you took 40 searguard in one unit. Thats just asking to get templated to death.

Battle banner aint really worth it like it used to be due to mass stubborn units. Better to give him something to keep him alive.

for HE 2k you really have far too many characters. In 2250 nowadays I rarely see more than 2. Atm its usually a lvl 4 and just a bsb

Going magic heavy in a game where magic dice are now random you really need to add more magic oomf if you want to get the spells off. Banner of sorcery is ok to help with that but maybe take jewel of the dusk on 1 person and a powerstone on another. I just used the pool dice I have *plus channaling* and found it works well.

Dont rely on magic to win games for you

You should also look into taking anti warmachine stuff. Fast units like dragon princes or a couple of eagles to head down a flank. against the helcannon though you would probably need it to be princes


At the end of the day we arnt a horde army as our weakest unit is 9points. I also tried some bigger units to begin with (max 30 seaguard and white lions) and found that people avoided combat with the white lions and the seaguard just got templated to death.

wbravenboer
05-08-2010, 08:07
As I will be playing against High Elves soon, I read your post... perhaps you did have too much points in characters? I think against Chaos you need more hitting power and perhaps more cheaper units for wearing the enemy down?
I am thinking about starting HE soon, as I love the starter set elves. I have played some games against HE, and especially big blocks of spearmen tend to hold troops down. Swordmasters are terrific (expensive though), the Chariot is not very useful, but that would be my experience with my DE army.
RBT are still awesome.

Palantir
05-08-2010, 08:11
>>40x Lothern Seaguard with shields/cmd

I think this is a big mistake.
Imo, Elves should rarely go above units of 20. Stick with 15-20.

However, your magic being shut down so easily is a bit worrying. You could change the whole deal and go with 1 wizard with High magic and play defensively with drain magic, spending more on troops.

Elves will probably be more combo-charge oriented this edition. Maybe make a list where each block has a support unit like a tiranoc chariot or something. Alternatively go archer heavy and deploy further back.

I'd like to hear more on what you yourself think you can do to beat them next time.

Gallock
05-08-2010, 08:21
I think some of the problem is WoC rather than HE. The combination or Good offense and good defense is incredibly good in 8th. HE have only a few things that can stand up to them (SMs) but its kind of a 1:1 - kill:death unit against chaos, but even weaker to spells.

You need to somehow whittle them down and finish them off with SMs or something. They need to be dead before they swing (Hard to do)

knightime98
05-08-2010, 08:24
Thanks one and all for such quick replies and in turn, I have short comments to all to this point.

@Ravenxx - I find your reply very comical in that, I took High Elves in a game before this in 7th edition where I didn't take any wizards at all. I was informed to take wizards in 8th as HE to give them a chance. LOL..

@AndrewGPaul - Great weapons you say? The Sword Masters are indeed a force to be reckoned with.. However, I think that with ASF and GW (ASL) it goes to being just straight initiative. Even then I think the attacks vs Chaos Warriors would then be simultaneous. Granted they get 2 attacks at S5 each in the front. My White Lion Chariot with multiple S5 attacks/impacts bounced ! Go figure.. So.. I'm at an impasse with this. I did ONE wound with my chariot unsaved with 4 impact hits and 2 GW riders..

@ Lord of Divine Slaughter.. - Point taken.. I was just trying the horde thing and thought the Lothern Sea Guard with all the hype would work out. Well, it ended very disastrously. LOL.. so here we are!

@ Wamphyri101 - I like your comments and those are most intuitive. I just threw a list together to try some things out. I found out in short order that that list was really not good or great in any capacity. I like the Dragon Princes idea. I have 4k points in HE's with all options available. So.. I've used the DP's before but they too didn't work out too well in 7th.. Maybe just my dice or his good armor saves or both.. anyhow.

@ wbravenboer - Yes, the characters were and are spendy. I was just trying everything out to see if any of it would work. You say that Sword Master are terrific but then you say they are spendy? Do you mean points wise or money wise? Or really for that matter both?
- The chariot was really not worth while. Despite I had 4 impact hits and 2 GW attacks - I netted only one unsaved wound! Stupid armor and Ward Saves!

Thruster
05-08-2010, 08:38
@AndrewGPaul - Great weapons you say? The Sword Masters are indeed a force to be reckoned with.. However, I think that with ASF and GW (ASL) it goes to being just straight initiative.


Just so you know, HE's FAQ states that HE always strike first with GW and if same I or better, you get to re-roll to hit too.

wbravenboer
05-08-2010, 08:39
Very interesting points, nice tips for my coming elven-force! This weekend my ogres will be battling a 3000 pts HE force, so I am curious what my opponent will bring to the table!
Swordmasters are expensive pointswise (just about the same as Black Guard perhaps?) But moneywise, Blood Knights rule!
Still having trouble finding some uses for chariots.
What about cavalry in 8th? Dragon Princes are pretty strong, are units of 10 useful?

Shamutanti
05-08-2010, 09:00
@Ravenxx - I find your reply very comical in that, I took High Elves in a game before this in 7th edition where I didn't take any wizards at all. I was informed to take wizards in 8th as HE to give them a chance. LOL..


Everyone should take one wizard. But HEs don't need magic to win, nor did they need it in 7th. It comes down to how they utilize their elite units and focus their shots.


@AndrewGPaul - Great weapons you say? The Sword Masters are indeed a force to be reckoned with.. However, I think that with ASF and GW (ASL) it goes to being just straight initiative. Even then I think the attacks vs Chaos Warriors would then be simultaneous. Granted they get 2 attacks at S5 each in the front. My White Lion Chariot with multiple S5 attacks/impacts bounced ! Go figure.. So.. I'm at an impasse with this. I did ONE wound with my chariot unsaved with 4 impact hits and 2 GW riders..

Like mentioned Sword Masters hit first. Also it should be get that your white lions on the chariot are strength 6. I wouldn't take chariots vs. WoC anyway. They're only really good if you can catch a Marauder unit with them. I only tend to drop Chariots in my list if it's a lightly armoured foe I'm facing or something to counter charge, such as Ogres.


@ Lord of Divine Slaughter.. - Point taken.. I was just trying the horde thing and thought the Lothern Sea Guard with all the hype would work out. Well, it ended very disastrously. LOL.. so here we are!

The theory says 50 Seaguard are stunning. Game play shows it's too much of a target, needs 60/70 elves in one unit due to losses that will be sustained before they fully engage in combat, and that you -really- need the lore of shadow to get the most out of them.

~PrometheuS~
05-08-2010, 09:14
Your list was the let down, not the army

I was rolled by WoC last week lol, headed back to the drawing board and this week going to field weopons that allow no armour saves ;)

Arbas
05-08-2010, 09:20
One game, especially using a new ruleset, is meaningless.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
05-08-2010, 09:37
@ Lord of Divine Slaughter.. - Point taken.. I was just trying the horde thing and thought the Lothern Sea Guard with all the hype would work out. Well, it ended very disastrously. LOL.. so here we are!

Glad to help :)

And don't worry. 8th is a whole new game, we all need to adjust too. All the elves will have to adjust to people hitting back and acting totally unfair ;)

As a WE and DE player, I've always found that our troops are of immense value compared to characters, when it comes to generating kills. HE with great weapons are especially useful in this edition - imagine a horde of white lions striking and re-rolling in 3 ranks, buffed with toughness from Life. Thats the recipe for a nightmare :cheese:

Generally I want my characters to be able to do something my army can't, as basically you're sacrificing an extra unit to have a character. In 7th you generated magic dice, but thats not needed anymore. And elves really aren't that killy unless they're on a dragon. I like to run a defensively kitted lord with the Crown of Command for a Stubborn 10 highly mobile tar pit - while providing the Ld for the rest of the gang. While a single wizard is usually enough to burn your - on average 7 - PD.

And remember to have fun ;)

jamano
05-08-2010, 09:48
I even took the liberty of taking the Lore of Metal just to try it out.
I had the following just to see what could happen
Arch Mage lvl 4 - with staff of solidity (avoids first miscast)
Mage level 2 - Scroll that acts as dispel and on 4+ spell can't be cast for rest of game

Your level 4 should be lore of life with the book of hoeth or whatever, dweller below is just as good against chaos as final transmutation(and its better at killing characters i think) throne of vines lets you ignore tons of miscasts, and giving a unit +4 toughness will make even chosen bounce off of it. With most of your spells going irresistible, you wont have to worry about getting scrolled before you go into combat.

CmdrLaw
05-08-2010, 09:57
Never Ever horde elves, they cost too much and don't have enough protection.

It really is aking for trouble.

But elves are always going to have trouble against a Hellcannon.


On the magic front you must have been unlucky to not get nothing off, especially with the banner of sorcery. Shadow or life probably would work better for you. Life means you can avoid taking the staff of solidity and take a more potent item like book of ashur or hoeth. Dewel of dusk and annulian crystal are also great on the lvl 2.

I much prefer white lions to SM's, strength 6 with re-rolls to hit and stubborn with support attacks is amazing. Will make a real dent in CWs.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
05-08-2010, 12:02
Never Ever horde elves, they cost too much and don't have enough protection.

And never ever say never ;)

Col_Festus
05-08-2010, 15:14
I would have taken magic that supports you're own army rather than hurts the enemies. For one thing you have to choose magic when you create the list, thus you can plan how the lore you chose interacts with your army instead of taking a crap shoot that it will be useful against the opponent you go up against. When it comes to elves I think lore of shadows alone is amazing, or lore of life for healing those expensive units. That block of 40 seaguard become alot more intimidating when they strike first, reroll misses and are str 8.... watch those warriors die in DROVES. Also I would have used all your ranged shooting to eliminate that hellcannon. Just a few things that come to mind.

The_Varangian
05-08-2010, 15:29
i reckon that now, in 8th ed, rbt's aren't cost effective. a tactic ive had used against my dwarfs in 3000 pts is like, 55 seaguard, a dragon mage to go down the flank, some other stuff, e.t.c, but the real problem for me was a unit of pheonix guard with the white lion captain, and a unit of white lions with the pheonix guard captain. those two units killed all 60 of my longbeards... that special rule sharing rule works well...

WarhammerNoob4ever
05-08-2010, 15:31
And never ever say never ;)

ya.... im seriously debating using a unit of 30 WL 10x3 w no command

so its 30 hitting on 3+ w re-rolls STR 6 attacks..... for 450 pts

with foreststrider i can deploy them in/near a forest for -2 to be hit by range, with a 3+AS vs shooting... most/all should make it to combat 2-3 turn

dotn kno if its the most competitive but man would that be fun to slam into something.....

enyoss
05-08-2010, 16:07
I think one of the big mistakes you made with your list was taking such a massive unit of Seaguard. Although I haven't had chance to play any 8th edition games yet (so feel free to discount my views :)), it always seemed to me that the Horde rule was a bit of a gimmick, especially for expensive infantry. I would keep the unit big, but big as in 25-30 strong.

Apart from that I don't want to make too many comments as they'd be entirely based on my 7th edition experience. Still, I'd implore you to stand fast and not go down the Teclis/Star Dragon route just yet... have a mess around with some more lists first :).

HeroFox
05-08-2010, 16:17
I'm going to have a HE vs. WoC article out this weekend, so stay tuned on my blog :)

SideshowLucifer
05-08-2010, 16:18
I had the exact same problem with my Dark Elves the first 10 games or so until I changed how I played. I used magic to enchance my fighting troops and hamper my enemy's rather then doing direct damage. I changed my list around to ranged combat being more of a scaple rather then a broadsword and beefed up my melee lines a lot.
Shadow magic is insane for buffs ad debuffs. Mind Razor on a unit with spears and a 7+ Ld is just amazing.

ewar
05-08-2010, 16:33
Also, if you're saying he was in combat in turn 2, you deployed too close to him - remember, if you just deploy 8" on instead of 12", there is no way his infantry can charge you until turn 3. Even if you deploy on the edge of your zone - the odds of him making a second turn charge are tiny.

Unless you move towards him of course, in which case I have no sympathy :)

BrotherNefarius
05-08-2010, 17:13
He shot with Hellcannon and did 15 wounds to seaguard.

hmmm how did he get that many hits with a small template? i have a hard time to figure the hit to wound that many... as far as i remember, the sea guard are normal bases, not small right?

Sparowl
05-08-2010, 17:57
Dont rely on magic to win games for you.

I wouldn't say that. At least half my games have been won by magic.

A player down here was doing the same thing with the LSG (bigger actually, but we play 2500). It didn't work because he didn't have enough board control.

Try running two units of spearmen instead.

LSG suffer from trying to do two things, and thus not being able to do both well. If you move, you can't volley. If you don't move, you won't hit combat on your terms.

And if you have a giant unit, it becomes a giant target. Which will be even worse the first time someone gets one of the big unit killing spells off on that unit.



Your level 4 should be lore of life with the book of hoeth or whatever, dweller below is just as good against chaos as final transmutation(and its better at killing characters i think) throne of vines lets you ignore tons of miscasts, and giving a unit +4 toughness will make even chosen bounce off of it. With most of your spells going irresistible, you wont have to worry about getting scrolled before you go into combat.

Uhhh....no. Life is not a good lore for HE. Shadow is really the lore to take. Mindrazor is amazing with ASF/rerolls. Lowering someone's strength is about the same as giving your elves bonus toughness. How about lowering their WS so that you hit on 3s. And maybe they hit on 5s if you roll well. And Dweller's is horrible against Chaos. Yes, its the same as final transmutation (same against characters that are S5 or higher). But its main use is killing low strength stuff. Like other elves.

Death isn't bad for HE either.

Col. Tartleton
05-08-2010, 19:01
Instead of 40 seaguard you should have taken 2x24. That's a much better use of points. Then scrapped some of your casting to buy some swordmasters. Essentially those are the two best units in the army. 24 LSG drop (six wide by four) 18 shots and do 24 attacks in close combat. That's the best you can get. In a 10x4 you get 30 shots instead of 36 shots which can be directed at two units. You get 40 attacks instead of 48 attacks that can be used on two units. Plus 10x4 is bulky. Pheonix Guard are good but I think Swordmasters are clearly better. More attacks at higher strength and the same weaponskill for the same price... come on.

Peril
05-08-2010, 19:08
Yep Shadow is extremely good for Elves.

_dandaman_
05-08-2010, 19:32
hmmm how did he get that many hits with a small template? i have a hard time to figure the hit to wound that many... as far as i remember, the sea guard are normal bases, not small right?

Hellcannon is a large template, so he's lucky he got away with only that few ammount of casualties.

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-08-2010, 20:29
Yeah, I think its just you. Your tactical awarenes is next to nill if you didn't BoEF the S.G, take either Shadow, Death, or Life, and other numerous mistakes I and everyone else is/could going on about. Better luck next time big guy? :)

PS. I'm about one hundred and seven percent sure the Hellcannon is a small template. As it "SHOOTS AS A STONETHROWER."

theorox
05-08-2010, 20:33
You were too characterheavy and lacked hittyness. That was it, really. :F

Theo

Justicar Valius
05-08-2010, 20:45
Hellcannon is a large template, so he's lucky he got away with only that few ammount of casualties.

Is it? Anyway all elves are on 20mm bases I think so you can hit about 16 (no partials anymore), 2s to wound (its a S5(10) stonethrower). With such a big unit even a few inches in certain directions may mean full hits.

Paraelix
05-08-2010, 20:47
20x Phoenix guard w/cmd and banner of sorcery

The Phoenix Guard did about 6 or 7 wounds he made 5 saves on armor and another 1 on a ward save.

Armour Piercing Banner.

WarhammerNoob4ever
05-08-2010, 20:50
Pheonix Guard are good but I think Swordmasters are clearly better. More attacks at higher strength and the same weaponskill for the same price... come on.

SM are not better than PG, nor are PG better than SM, they are different

SM die to a strong breeze, PG ignore half the cannonball shots they get hit w..... SM are I5, PG I6, so PG get re-rolls against more things than SM do.... PG cause fear, which can make units they are fighting against WS1 ( i kno BSB lets re-rolls, but it happens)

yes SM kill more than PG, but PG last a lot longer and get to the enemy mostly intact, something SM can never say

so dont just say SM > PG, warhammer has no absolutes

Casshole
06-08-2010, 03:45
I think Theorox had it correct, no hittiness at all.

The lion chariot is decent vs some armies but on the whole its not gonna last vs WoC.

A monster or some WLs would have been good, especially since the Hellcannon was bombing you (unless you dont get AS vs the cannon i havent played against one in ages.)

Pheonix guard and to a lesser extent the spears are goof for holding up the WoC for a few turns but if you dont have something to hit in their flanks or at least do more than a lil damage its a lost game.

Ive always found WoC to be a hard matchup for my high elves.

Urdokadin
06-08-2010, 05:51
The hellcannon uses the small 3 inch template. There's absolutely nothing in the Hellcannon rules to indicate otherwise. However it is perfectly feasable to do that many casualties in a horde unit if only because anything even slightly touched by the template still takes the hit.

unheilig
06-08-2010, 06:04
High elves can't compete in close combat?

WTF??????

cptcosmic
06-08-2010, 08:51
I Uhhh....no. Life is not a good lore for HE. Shadow is really the lore to take.
it depends on your enemy. Life is all around good choice. you can raise expensive troops backs, you can make your expensive mage not blow up itself, you can make your already very killy units tough. Lore of Life can replenish the wounds of your characters, eagles, repeaters and chariots. Lore of Life can make your units more killy with automatic hits.

and the most important thing is, shadow does not really help you against warmachines which will blow up half of your army on approach.

SideshowLucifer
06-08-2010, 12:20
That's what those eagles should be taking care of right?
I run skirmishers, fast cav,or fliers in all my armies just for warmachine hunting.

CmdrLaw
06-08-2010, 13:53
Unless the warmachine is a Hellcanon, they have become rather popular nowadays.

Bolter Bait
06-08-2010, 13:59
Couple problems that immediately come to mind.
-Seaguard in too large a unit. They really have shined so far being in units of 20-28, especially 24 with a musician at the least. Lets you shoot ranked 8x3 and use the musician to reform to 6x4 to take/give a charge. Plus, having 24 means you have to suffer 5 casualties before you drop below minimum 4 ranks in a 5x4 pattern. For a little more points, you could have had two units 20-24 LSG which gives you more flexibility to hold with one and flank charge with another, or deny a flank.

-A lion chariot is good and you got unlucky-don't dismiss it yet. With support, a LC or two will grind its way through just about anything. Risky to use solo, but unlike a TC, the LC has a good quantity of attacks to continue the fight after the initial charge.

-Expensive one use items on the mages as well as giving them the wrong schools. I too like Archmage, bsb, mage for that point level, but I equip them much differently. Metal is a wasted lore on an archmage. The lore is too specific and most of the spells are useless unless tailored for high armour enemies. I prefer to take Metal on the lvl2 with a Seerstaff to take the +5 scaly skin and the +1 to Hit/-1 to sv spells. Really gives bite to the LSG or PG and helps them stay in the fray longer. Other spells can collect dust for all I care. Other option is to take Shadow on the lvl2 and go for the -1T and use Ld instead of S spells. 4 ranks of S8 LSG will ruin just about anything's day, especially considering that the FAQ does allow Mindrazor to modify armour saves. That's a -5 sv on LSG alone!

-Archmage I prefer to have 4+ ward (rulebook item), either the Silver Wand or Jewel of Dusk and the Ring of Fury. Archmage takes lore of Life. With 4 or 5 rolls on the spell chart, almost guaranteed to get a couple of the spells you want, such as the Invocation clone, Throne (2+ ignore miscast is amazing), Dwellers and +2/4 T spells. T7 PG will go nowhere and will wall just about anything while you set up a flank charge or just whittle them down. The RoF is just there to provide some damage that Life just doesn't offer.

-Battle Banner is garbage now-leave it at home. Plus, taking a magic banner on the BSB really leaves him vulnerable to damage and the new BSB rules are just too good to lose. 168 points gets you a BSB with a GW, a 2+ save and a 5+ ward just using the items in the AB. Why pass that up? Adds some bite to whatever unit you attach him to and keeps him alive to provide that all important BSB bonus.

-RBTs hit just as hard as they always have, but being reduced to W2 instead of randomizing hits and being wounded on 6s by anything really makes them quite fragile. Someone described them as a "panic bomb in your back lines waiting to go off." I like to keep one in my list, but I do see a lot of lists without a single RBT anymore. You could drop a RBT for two Eagles and use them to hunt warmachines or use them to bait and flee to set up for your own charges. Even sacrificing an eagle to hold an enemy for a turn can be beneficial, allowing you to charge yourself or delay a turn so that the LC can catch up with the infantry and combo-charge.

Havock
06-08-2010, 14:00
Obvious things:

500 points of magic is indeed worthless. 1/4 of your army should not be wizards. 1/8 at best.

You had no greatweapons. Good game. Next time, roll into his units of wariors with some swordmasters, and get about 9 wounds with minimal saves allowed, and watch them crumple...

1- depends, you basically need that level 4 more than ever, for chaos, that means you are looking at a mage costing around 450 points, that will be close if you play 2k points

2- Agreed, S4 doesn't cut it versus warriors, sure you have a fancy wardsave, but so does the tzeentchian warrior; you get a 6+/4++, he gets a 4+/5++, I know which is better ;)
White Lions are ridiculously good versus warriors.

Memnos
06-08-2010, 14:15
Phoenix Guard are, in my opinion, a great mainstay unit: Always rerolling to hit, 4+ ward save. They're my 'Go to' unit for augmentation, or would be if I played High Elves.

Elves aren't cheap enough to have throw-away models, but with a 4+ ward save, you effectively double the number of wounds Phoenix Guard have. They stick around.

Althwen
06-08-2010, 14:36
I'm a WoC player and I two of my 3 regular opponents play elves. One HE and the other DE.
I lost the first battle to DE and won my first against HE.
The key difference was hitting power.
The HE player only had 2x25 Seaguard for shooting. He got the first turn and moved 'em forward a couple of inches so he could get all of his ranks in range for bowfire...mistake! Those couple of extra shots never levelled out the couple of inches he handed to me with that move. I was on him in turn 2.
He didnt have RBT's because he thought they suckes in 8th ed. Not against WoC they don't. I can recommend at least one for any HE player, even if it's just to attract some attention in the magic phase or lure away some marauder horsemen.
Another thing that his list lacked, was critical punch once I got face to face with him. Big units are nice, but as you say, almost everything bounces of Chaos armour. I neutralised his swordmasters with a hellcannon shot and later with my lord: bye-bye.
Magic is something that's being overestimated atm. Sure he pwnd my ass by blowing away my 8-man strong knight unit with a single spell, but all of his 3 characters were mages! I only had a lvl 2 so I expected to get hurt.
If you're gonna field a lvl 4, he's only gonna need 1 sidekick tops for some lore diversity.
Everytime I look at the HE armylists floating around, I see tons of anvils but no hammers... true, this is hard for HE's. DElves have easy acces to Hydra's and other nasty killy stuff (DE is the worst Armybook to ever leave the Games Workshop presses imho) but maybe some units that tend to move around a bit and play the unpredictable factor in their army couldn't hurt HE's.
Because now I just see a bunch of really clean elves standing on the opposite board edge praying for some good magic dice rolls so we'll never make it to their side. But once we DO get there...they just squint their eyes and prod their feeble sticks at us.

TheKingInYellow
06-08-2010, 14:54
No HE hammers? Really?

Dragon Princes, White Lions, Star Dragons, Swordmasters, Lion Chariots... These can all mess up Chaos armour. I play both armies, so I'm not taking sides here either, but HE have devastating hammers! It's a cheap, usable anvil that they lack.

Zaszz
06-08-2010, 15:08
I think he said the "lists" he sees don't ever use any hammer units. I agree with this sentiment. You can't win with just core and phoenix guard. I resign my phoenix guard to either augments for damage, and use them as a decent attacking unit (beast signture spell or okkams mind razor here), or just set them as a small 15 man mage bunker.

I have had more success running a life mage supporting two bricks of white lions, then any other configuration. With a level 4 and a standard of sorcery I often have enough dice to cast all 4 of my spells giving one unit regen saves, the other toughness, and regrowthing losses as I approach. White lions hammer elite infantry like Dwarf and Chaos units. Generally speaking they can win face to face confrontations of equal points sometimes, and if aided by an augment will win most of the time. Hell supported by my mage they can fight horde infantry too. I generally use my spear units with a BSB in one and a warstandard in the other for basic infantry fighters however.

It is true that you can't afford to throw away elf units they are expensive, but you also can't afford to not take things that can wreck your enemy, nothing ventured, nothing gained. I stick by my single lvl 4 life mage to mitigate warmachine losses as I approach, and a BSB as the only other character to support my cores.

Althwen
06-08-2010, 15:22
Indeed Zaszz, I explicitly meant 'lists'.

@ Thekinginyellow, I didn't mean to say there's nothing in the list that can serve as an effective hammer, they're just not anywhere near a no-brainer like the aforementioned Hydra for DE.
Including Star Dragons and White lions demands a serious steering away from hanging back and shooting bits to pieces and personally I don't see too many ppl heading that direction, 's all I'm saying.

CmdrLaw
06-08-2010, 15:29
No HE hammers? Really?

Dragon Princes, White Lions, Star Dragons, Swordmasters, Lion Chariots... These can all mess up Chaos armour. I play both armies, so I'm not taking sides here either, but HE have devastating hammers! It's a cheap, usable anvil that they lack.

Spearmen can make a solid enough anvil if they have decent numbers, especially playing lore of life. And cheap enough to buy in good numbers.

Even better if your BSB has crown of command in the unit.

mattjgilbert
06-08-2010, 15:34
You can hit 21 models I think using the small template over 20mm bases.

@WarhammerNoob4ever: You'd only get 30 attacks if the whole unit frontage were in base-to-base combat!

I've yet to try my High Elves in 8th ed (been trying my O&G and my Daemons) but large hordes do seem tempting at first glance. However they are also a big point sink and too easily dealt with so I think I'll follow the advice here and stick to smaller units that work to support each other.

To the OP - hopefully you have the models avialable to make the suggested changes. Run with some more mobile light stuff; smaller units; not so much on characters. Strike a balance.

Jericho
06-08-2010, 20:46
Skirmishers, fast cav and fliers will all suck against monster&handlers though, like Hellcannon and Salamanders. Heavy cav have three purposes in 8th if you ask me:

1) Dealing with Monsters/Monster & Handlers before they wreck entire units. Hellcannon included.
2) Pinning down dangerous units quickly, and/or adding damage when combined with infantry. You won't often break units on your own, but Dragon Princes should definitely be winning combats and holding them in place for a while. Augment spells help bigtime against attrition.
3) Getting through/around support units to get at war machines.

That second point brings me to another suggestion for this type of army, which is spell selection. Augment spells really are great at turning good units into amazing ones. Any combination of spells like Flesh to Stone, Wyssan's Wild Form, Mindrazor, etc. will give you a big boost in combat. Hexes from Shadow can do similar things, reducing S or T by D3 for your opponents to ensure victory, etc. Keep in mind the fact that T boosts will help against all attacks, not just attacks from one unit in combat.

Direct damage spells are nice if you can wipe out units at range, but giving yourself the edge in combat will save entire units from breaking/being wiped out. Both are good, but I'd prioritize augment spells for HE armies. Something like Flesh to Stone or Shield of Saphery will definitely help big units like Sea Guard that will attract some serious attention if taken in big huge bricks.

As for tactics, it really doesn't sound like you focused your firepower effectively. Taking 1-2 wounds off of multiple monsters and chariots is not effective shooting. Hammering one until dead is. You MUST be able to kill things like the Hellcannon before they get a number of shots in against infantry. Hellcannons are probably one of the best things in a Chaos army, they can really do it all: wrecking entire units with shooting, panicking them off the board with -1Ld (stacks with other Ld debuffs), and stomping infantry into paste in combat.

The chariot and giant could have been dealt with by GW-armed troops in combat, while the Hellcannon should have been dealt with promptly at range with either spells or focused bolt throwers.

Cerraand
06-08-2010, 21:38
@AndrewGPaul - Great weapons you say? The Sword Masters are indeed a force to be reckoned with.. However, I think that with ASF and GW (ASL) it goes to being just straight initiative.

Nope, according to the errata and FAQs the ASF rule from the army book takes precedence. So Swordmasters and White Lions still always strike first (and gets to reroll if their Init is higher than the foe.

Mandragola
07-08-2010, 09:44
For people talking about different lores of magic, I think it's worth considering the very strong magic defence of the enemy. Not casting Okkam's mindrazor is about as useful as not casting final transmutation. I think the thing to look at is how to take away an enemy's magic defence, especially when said magic defence is surrounded by angry-looking chaos warriors.

LanceSaba
07-08-2010, 13:28
For high elves you have the Pguard which work great for those miscasts that pop up so they were and still are great bunkers for your wizard. As a DE player I don't know to much about High Elves (will need to though for the amount of people that will be playing them due to the Island of Blood) but as others have stated you need some white lions as they can take range damage a lot better though woodmen isn't as good as it use to be. they are also better in horde formation because you are not paying for the additional attack that you can't use. Now if you play a heavy foot slogging army I suggest chariots as well as they hit hard and won't get left behind. As far as WoC is concerned Life is good to keep your own list alive but as a DE player i wouldn't know and I suggest Metal ,as said on a lv 2, as it covers elves greatest weakness, high armor saves.

I would listen to Bolter Bait and Jericho as they seem to be giving the best advice (not putting anyone down here it is just their post consolidate the info better IMO).

One bolt thrower is good to take put out some wound. it might not kill its points but it can generally stay out of other shooting attacks range and helps dictate the placement of monsters. so it has other benefits than "oh it is weak and over cost" because it does or doesn't look good on paper, as people have stated about 50 sea guard, doesn't mean it is or isn't.

Don't leave the Eagles at home =)

SideshowLucifer
09-08-2010, 11:29
Bolth Throwers are terrible right now. Too easy for almost every army to kill and with the speed of movement, you usualy don't have many turns avaialble to shoot it even if its still alive. They are way too expensive right now for the impact they have on a game.

The key for elves is the magic phase and the enchancement spells. It's all about making your elite troops even more elite wih your magic. Str 8-9 spears are just devistation to anyone, and as a DE player, I'd kill to have a PG thype unit for my casters.