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domread
05-08-2010, 18:00
Good Evening

My friends dark elf sorceress miscast and has been reduced to magic level 0

We cannot find anything that says you cannot channel or no longer count as a wizard for the purposes of using arcane items.

It does say in the magic section that wizards have a level of between 1 and 4. So is a wizard with level 0 no longer a wizard?

(We have used the most important rule to resolve it, but i would be interested in peoples opinions!)

Desert Rain
05-08-2010, 18:11
As you say, it says in the magic rules that a wizard has a level of 1-4. If you are reduced below L.1 you are no longer a wizard and can't channel or use arcane items.

Lungboy
05-08-2010, 19:25
As you say, it says in the magic rules that a wizard has a level of 1-4. If you are reduced below L.1 you are no longer a wizard and can't channel or use arcane items.

You might want to mention that this is your opinion, and isn't actually covered in the rulebook at all.

Clegane
05-08-2010, 19:41
You might want to mention that this is your opinion, and isn't actually covered in the rulebook at all.

Actually, the book covers it pretty explicitly, just as Desert rain stated.

Wizards are classed as being one of 4 levels only.
On page 28, "There are 4 Wizard Levels..."

The 'Zero' level is not one of these. How, then, could a character have a level of 'zero' and still be a 'Wizard' (with wizardly benefits) if the book EXPLICITLY states that a wizard must be one of 4 (not five) levels?

Lord Inquisitor
05-08-2010, 19:51
Hmm. I should think that a level 0 wizard is still a wizard. Ergo can still cast (if she knows any spells after the mistcast e.g. Loremaster, and adding +0 to her casting power), channel, use arcane items, etc. I don't think the introductory paragraph stating there are 4 wizard levels is as clear cut as that (she's a level 1 wizard who is at -1).

Haravikk
05-08-2010, 20:08
I've been playing it exactly as Clegane and Desert Rain say. If any of your other attributes are reduced to zero then you can't use them either, so why should a wizard level be any different? Because you wish it were so?

Lord Inquisitor
05-08-2010, 20:17
If your general is reduced to Ld 0 does he stop being the general or having the Inspiring Presence rule? No, he can still pass on his Ld, it just sucks. I'm not sure a wizard at Level 0 stops being a wizard, he just can't cast if he's got no more spells. For example, I played an opponent with a Level 4 Tzeentch sorcerer with +1 to cast and dispel and 5 spells - so, effectively Level 5. If he suffered 4 mistcasts that reduce him to level 0 - but he still has 1 spell and +1 to cast and dispel...

Haravikk
05-08-2010, 20:37
If he has no wizard level then he has no ability to manipulate the winds of magic, period. That means he can't make channeling attempts because he either no longer knows how to do it (the knowledge is gone) or he is no longer able to sense or otherwise manipulate magic in any way. In the description for channeling in the first place it isn't to represent additional energy being generated, but the wizard finding ways to use it more efficiently, which he can't do if he is unable to use magic at all.

Inspiring Presence and being the army general aren't the same thing as wizard level, as army general is an army level attribute (an army has to have a general, and that doesn't change during the battle, if you lose the general you've lost your general, end of story). Likewise inspiring presence is an area of effect, in the unlikely event his leadership were reduced to 0 he'd be causing every friendly unit within 12" that is able to use his leadership to automatically fail leadership tests on any roll other than double 1.

A wizard's level is a personal attribute, and arguably the same as any other characteristic, if it hits zero then your character has no aptitude for it at all, just as a model without a Ballistic Skill cannot fire a bow. He might very well remain a wizard in name, and potentially regain his ability to use magic after the battle, but for the purposes of the game the model is no longer a wizard at all.

Korraz
05-08-2010, 20:49
So, all my heroes are wizards lvl 0 now? AWESOME! Arcane Artifacts for everyone!

Lord Inquisitor
05-08-2010, 21:00
Haravikk, your arguments are eloquent but not really based in the rules. There is no "wizard level" characteristic applied to all models. Level is purely a wizard's attribute. As Korraz says, all characters are not level 0 wizards. They are simply not wizards. A level 0 wizard is a wizard - they have a big red hat with the word "wizzard" written on it, the fact that they can't cast any spells is not the point ;)

Paraelix
05-08-2010, 21:00
If your general is reduced to Ld 0 does he stop being the general or having the Inspiring Presence rule? No, he can still pass on his Ld, it just sucks. I'm not sure a wizard at Level 0 stops being a wizard, he just can't cast if he's got no more spells. For example, I played an opponent with a Level 4 Tzeentch sorcerer with +1 to cast and dispel and 5 spells - so, effectively Level 5. If he suffered 4 mistcasts that reduce him to level 0 - but he still has 1 spell and +1 to cast and dispel...

A requirement of being the general is not having high Ld. A requirement of being a wizard is that you have a level.

Urgat
05-08-2010, 21:06
Rules are that wizards are lvl 1 to 4, there's no lvl 0 wizard, so if you're lvl 0, you're not a wizard. What's there to argue?

Yrrdead
05-08-2010, 21:18
Hmm the miscast chart specifically states

"His Wizard level is permanently reduced by D3, to a minimum of 0 and he forgets a single spell for each Wizard level lost...."

Nowhere in there does it state that a 0 level Wizard is no longer a wizard. Nor does it imply that a 0 level Wizard is no longer a wizard.

Now while I agree that it states Wizards have a Wizard level of 1-4. The Miscast chart is an obvious special case that overrides that. Making it possible to have a level 0 Wizard.

Paraelix
05-08-2010, 21:25
Probably because GW know that someone out there would try and argue that a Level -1 wizard would channel dice out of their power pool.

Yrrdead
05-08-2010, 21:28
Probably because GW know that someone out there would try and argue that a Level -1 wizard would channel dice out of their power pool.

LOL you win the interwebz.

theunwantedbeing
05-08-2010, 23:10
It's likely assumed that a model having a stat of 0 (wizard levels would count as a stat maybe) has no skill in that particular thing.

So a level 0 wizard is just the same as a model who isnt a wizard.
Just as a model with bs0 is unable to fight in combat.

Odlox
05-08-2010, 23:15
If he has no wizard level then he has no ability to manipulate the winds of magic, period.

This is a very bad argument. Bound spells, Warrior Priests and Tomb King/Prince incantations are examples that you are wrong.

I'm not sure what to think about the character being lvl 0 wizard or not a wizard at all. As far as i can tell, there are no rule saying that you have to be a wizard to cast spells. (so if you have spells remaining when hitting lvl "0", you can still cast them).

An argument that supports the existence of lvl 0 wizards, lies in the wording of the 10-12 result on the miscast table: "His wizard level is permanently reduced by D3, to a minimum of 0..."

Isn't the game telling us quite explicitly that the wizard can become level 0? I cant find any rule saying that a wizard who has lost all his wizard levels stops counting as a wizard.

Tho it is pretty clear that a "level 0" wizard can not use Arcane items: "Only a character with a wizard level can carry an Arcane Item." p 504.

Haravikk
05-08-2010, 23:17
So, all my heroes are wizards lvl 0 now? AWESOME! Arcane Artifacts for everyone!
Except that they're not wizards; if you like you can assume all the models in your army have a wizard level of zero, but all that means is that they're not wizards, as a wizard needs to have a level of 1 to 4. Just like a model capable of archery and all that that entails has to have a Ballistic Skill of 1 or more.


This is a very bad argument. Bound spells, Warrior Priests and Tomb King/Prince incantations are examples that you are wrong.
Not really; they have knowledge of how to use an item, rune, prayer, or whatever which will manipulate the winds of magic for them, they themselves don't do anything beyond recite a word or perform an incantation, what they're doing is different from an actual wizard that manipulates the winds of magic in a more direct way.

Odlox
05-08-2010, 23:30
It's likely assumed that a model having a stat of 0 (wizard levels would count as a stat maybe) has no skill in that particular thing.

So a level 0 wizard is just the same as a model who isnt a wizard.

By your logic you would support Lord Inquisitor's argument about the general and his leadership. The rule: "The General is the character in your army with the highest Leadership."

So if my generals leadership is reduced, another character can take charge as the General of my army?

Anyways, if you see Wizard level as a characteristic, read p. 3: "All characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10 - ...."



A wizard's level is a personal attribute, and arguably the same as any other characteristic, if it hits zero then your character has no aptitude for it at all, just as a model without a Ballistic Skill cannot fire a bow. He might very well remain a wizard in name, and potentially regain his ability to use magic after the battle, but for the purposes of the game the model is no longer a wizard at all.

We already know that Wizard levels are rated from level 1-4 (and possibly 0), so its NOT a characteristic, and you should stop applying the rules for characteristics to wizard levels

Paraelix
06-08-2010, 00:32
Anyways, if you see Wizard level as a characteristic, read p. 3: "All characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10 - ...."

We already know that Wizard levels are rated from level 1-4 (and possibly 0), so its NOT a characteristic, and you should stop applying the rules for characteristics to wizard levels

Uhh.. What?

gdsora
06-08-2010, 00:50
This is a very bad argument. Bound spells, Warrior Priests and Tomb King/Prince incantations are examples that you are wrong.

.

Technically, Tomb kings/princes are supposed to be moving/causing their units to attack

By sheer force of will, not actually casting of an incantation. (Hence why the rule that allows them to do this..is called "My Will Be Done")
But in game its represented by it being the same as an incantation
Im pretty sure Kings/Princes cant actually control winds of magic themselves (otherwise they would rely on their priests to summon their armies....Though Settra is the exception to all this)
Ahem that out of the way.

Am i being crazy, thinking there was a FaQ/Errata or something
i read that stated once your wizard lvl 0, your technically not a wizard any more?

I could've sworn i read that somewhere, but it might have been a 7th edition thing...um yeah

Foxbat
06-08-2010, 01:05
My friends dark elf sorceress miscast and has been reduced to magic level 0

We cannot find anything that says you cannot channel or no longer count as a wizard for the purposes of using arcane items.Looking at the paragraph beginning with “Wizards are assumed...” under the rule “Spells” (BRB, 28), it tends to support view that while a Level 0 wizard may not have any spells that are “of any value” to the battle, they still know other spells and would therefore still be classified as a “wizard”. It should be noted that under this same rule it clearly indicates that a wizard only “knows” spells equal to his/her “wizard level”, so a wizard with a level of zero would not know or be able to use any spells.

As for being able to use Arcane Items, in the reference section (BRB pg 504) for these items, it is noted that to carry an Arcane Item the model must have a Wizard level, which is defined back on page 28 as being “...a level from 1 to 4”. As Level 0 is not one of the “levels” identified, we can only really conclude that any Arcane Items that the model may have been carrying become “useless and inert” since the wizard does not have a level of 1 to 4.

As for channelling, the rule on page 30 only requires that the model be a “wizard”, so it appears that the model would still be able to make a channelling attempt.

So, I would think (until GW issues an FAQ on this) that while I still have a “wizard” model that can channel, it can’t use Arcane Items nor would the model be able to cast any spells.

Casshole
06-08-2010, 03:12
Foxbats argument makes the most sense based on the wording. I think this one is ripe for FAQ

Balerion
06-08-2010, 04:26
It should be noted that under this same rule it clearly indicates that a wizard only “knows” spells equal to his/her “wizard level”, so a wizard with a level of zero would not know or be able to use any spells.
But this text is clearly superseded by the Loremaster rule/any ability that grants knowledge of a complete Lore. Otherwise those abilities would be utterly useless...

Paraelix
06-08-2010, 04:58
But this text is clearly superseded by the Loremaster rule/any ability that grants knowledge of a complete Lore. Otherwise those abilities would be utterly useless...

They aren't useless... However, when you are unable to cast spells, they give you no benefit. Sphinx, mb?

Balerion
06-08-2010, 09:02
They aren't useless... However, when you are unable to cast spells, they give you no benefit. Sphinx, mb?
OK, but that has nothing to do with foxbat's argument, which was what I quoted/was responding to.

Haravikk
06-08-2010, 11:05
We already know that Wizard levels are rated from level 1-4 (and possibly 0), so its NOT a characteristic, and you should stop applying the rules for characteristics to wizard levels
Why? It's about the closest thing we have to apply to them, why make a special case? If it makes it easier for you then think of it as level 4, level 3, level 2, level 1, and not a wizard, result is the same.

And enough of the references to the army general; the general is selected at the start of the battle, it cannot be changed. The general's leadership once the game is underway is irrelevant to whether or not he remains army general.

Odlox
06-08-2010, 12:12
And enough of the references to the army general; the general is selected at the start of the battle, it cannot be changed.

Only if you have two or more characters with the same leadership value.

If you assume that a wizard can stop being a wizard, you have to assume that a general can stop being a general too, even tho he does no longer meet the requirements of being a General.

The RAW for the general is quite clear, the character with the highest leadership is the general. Nowhere does it say that the general is selected at the start of the game (unless you have two or more characters with the same leadership value). So if the current generals leadership is reduced to less than that of any other friendly character that is not a BsB, the character with the current highest leadership will now be your general. That is RAW. But we HAVE to assume that a general stays the general for the entire game (even tho there are no rule supporting this).

This is why I assume that a wizard stays a wizard for the entire game, even tho there are no rules supporting this or the other.

WWAS (What Would Avian Say): Consistency, gentlemen.

Korraz
06-08-2010, 12:27
*clears his throat*
So, all my heroes are wizards lvl 0 now? AWESOME! Arcane Artifacts for everyone!

Palantir
06-08-2010, 12:34
Only wizards are capable of having wizard lvl 0.


As Level 0 is not one of the “levels” identified

I will claim that it is identified in the spell description. It is thus possible to be a wizard with wizard lvl 0.

Milgram
06-08-2010, 13:54
Kirby, get yourself an avatar. :)

A wizard does not stop being a wizard if he is reduced to level zero unless the rule by which his level is reduced explicitly says so. discutable is, whether a lvl 2 wizard with three spells that is reduced three times loses two spells or three. because he still loses a wizard level, it is just not acounted for. is the loss of a spell trigered by losing a level or by reducing the level by one? (I've played too much MTG lately...)

the second question is (and probably I only ask it because I don't have te book infront of me) whether you have to be a wizard at all in order to use arcane items. you for sure have to be one in order to buy them when composing the army, but do you actually have to be one to use them?

edit@foxbat: having wizard level 0 is equal to having a wizard level. the times where there was no zero are gone since the westgoths pillaged rome.

Clegane
06-08-2010, 20:20
the second question is (and probably I only ask it because I don't have te book infront of me) whether you have to be a wizard at all in order to use arcane items. you for sure have to be one in order to buy them when composing the army, but do you actually have to be one to use them?



Page 504 indicates that 'only a character with a wizard level' can even CARRY an Arcane item. The following sentence says that trying to use one without a wizard level will render it inert or will destroy the character entirely.

So yeah...Level 0 Wizards can neither carry nor use Arcane Items.

As Foxbat pointed out about halfway up this page. :P

Foxbat
06-08-2010, 21:30
But this text is clearly superseded by the Loremaster rule/any ability that grants knowledge of a complete Lore. Otherwise those abilities would be utterly useless... While you raise a good question about the Loremaster special rule, this rule in-of-itself doesn’t really pertain directly to the question the OP asked as there was no indication that the Loremaster special rule was applicable. The analysis provided only focused on the Basic rules and how they applied to the situation at hand, a wizard having their wizard levels reduced to zero.

Now looking at the question “would the outcome be different if the wizard in question was a 4th level wizard with the Loremaster special rule?”

As we know from page 72 of the BRB, a model with the Loremaster special rule knows all of the spells in a specified lore. The effect of the Loremaster special rule is to re-write the Basic rule “Spells” to something like “…irrespective of the wizard’s level, the model at the start of the game knows all of the spells in the specified lore and does not roll to establish them…”. The important point to note here is that the Loremaster special rule does not change the model’s wizard levels, rather it just modifies the number of spells the model is permitted to know under the Basic rule “Spells”. So, the outcome would be a 4th level wizard that knows 7 spells (it may be 8 for a DE player that can get a DE model with the Loremaster special rule).

Assuming that during the game this 4th level wizard was reduced 4 levels to Level 0 and lost 4 spells due to miscast events, then the model would still be a wizard (as the Basic rules establishing this still apply) with a wizard level of 0 that still knows 3 spells (direct result of the Loremaster special rule modifying the Basic rule “Spells”).

Turning our attention to the “2 Cast” rules (BRB pg 31), while there is a requirement for model to be a “wizard” in order to cast a spell, there is no requirement for the model to have a level in order to cast.

So, I would think (until GW issues an FAQ on this) that a model with the Loremaster special rule that has had his/her wizard level reduced to zero, can channel and cast the spells they still know (of course no level can be added to any casting/dispel attempt), however, the model can’t use any of its Arcane Items as the Basic rules governing Arcane Items still applies.

Balerion
06-08-2010, 23:10
I think you have it correct there.

solkan
07-08-2010, 20:16
... however, the model can’t use any of its Arcane Items as the Basic rules governing Arcane Items still applies. (Ellipses added to the start of the quote, to indicate that I've removed material).

You're still ending with a conclusion that having Wizard Level 0 is causing the wizard a problem which would only be caused by not having a Wizard level. The model's Wizard Level is reduced to a minimum of 0. That means that it still has a defined wizard level, and it can still carry arcane items.

Otherwise, the game reaches a silly condition: The argument claims that the model is unable to carry its arcane item, yet there is mechanism by which the arcane item can be discarded to satisfy the rule, so the model must keep it and face a statement containing a threat with an alternative with no game mechanic behind it: the experience of having "their brains sucked out through their ears".

Oh, no, the skeleton wizard is going to get its brains sucked out of its head, again, if he keeps his scroll! :rolleyes:

Foxbat
07-08-2010, 21:07
(Ellipses added to the start of the quote, to indicate that I've removed material).

You're still ending with a conclusion that having Wizard Level 0 is causing the wizard a problem which would only be caused by not having a Wizard level. The model's Wizard Level is reduced to a minimum of 0. That means that it still has a defined wizard level, and it can still carry arcane items.

Otherwise, the game reaches a silly condition: The argument claims that the model is unable to carry its arcane item, yet there is mechanism by which the arcane item can be discarded to satisfy the rule, so the model must keep it and face a statement containing a threat with an alternative with no game mechanic behind it: the experience of having "their brains sucked out through their ears".

Oh, no, the skeleton wizard is going to get its brains sucked out of its head, again, if he keeps his scroll! :rolleyes:While a wizard can have his/her level reduced to zero, this level is just not recognized under Wizard Level rule (BRB page 28) as a being a “Wizard level”. The rule in the Arcane Item section (BRB pg 504) specifically mentions that the model must have a “Wizard level” and as a “0” is not recognized as such, the model can’t use Arcane Items.

While the Arcane Item rule provides two possible ways to address a model attempting to activate an Arcane Item when they are not qualified to do so, I think most players would be comfortable with the approach that the item simply becomes useless to the model (i.e. the first option of the two).

Barring any further GW guidance on this issue, I think that it is consistent with the rules as they are structured today that a model whose wizard level has been reduced to zero can’t use Arcane Items.

Caboose123
07-08-2010, 22:47
Page 28
"Wizards have a level from 1 to 4"

Page 34
"His Wizard level is permanently reduced by D3, to a minimum of 0..."

Its a direct contradiction. One says the minimum level is 1, the other says the minimum level is 0. Direct contradiction UNLESS a level 0 wizard ceases to be a wizard.

KharnTheBetrayer01
07-08-2010, 22:57
Speaking from personal experience (and I'm sure it was a rule, somewhere) I've always played it as, if a statistic is reduced to zero, the character is removed from play. Makes sense from a lore point of view (You mean there is literally no strength/toughness/movement/leadership indicating a level of intelligence left in his body? Sounds dead to me)

But, from a wizard point of view... I'd play it as "no longer a wizard, loses any and all rules pertaining to them being a wizard." personally. Worst case scenario, dice for it.

stripsteak
07-08-2010, 23:09
Speaking from personal experience (and I'm sure it was a rule, somewhere) I've always played it as, if a statistic is reduced to zero, the character is removed from play.

There was, and is (pg 4) a specific rule that if a few specific stats are reduced to 0 the model is removed, but it doesn't cover all stats.

TheTrueSloth
08-08-2010, 07:27
Honestly you've got me puzzling over this one guys.

Looking at page 28, it does not state that the wizarding levels are 1-4, but that "There are four wizard levels" (which we assume are 1-4). Similarly under the entry for spells it starts by saying "Each Wizard knows a number of spells equal to his level, chosen randomly...".

The problem is that according to page 28, Lvl "0" is not one of the defined levels of magic and thus he no longer fulfills the requirement of being a wizard as he stops being one of the "four levels". Ergo, he would systematically stop channelling, casting spells, etc.

But there is no specific rule reference that states that the Wizard "stops" being a wizard for the rest of the battle even if he does drop down to "0". It just states that he goes down to a big fat "0". Which implies he could still channel, etc (just not be able to actually cast spells or use Arcane Items).

I think until they FAQ this one, you should just chat with your opponent at the start of the battle and come to an agreement.

Toodles

domread
08-08-2010, 10:44
Many thanks for all the replies!

As i said in my original post we just used the 'most important rule' at the time but its certainly generated some interesting discussion and definately needs an FAQ answer imho.

SilasOfTheLambs
08-08-2010, 15:35
I don't think he gets to use it. It's a big problem for me, as my double-arch-lector empire army is MUCH more effective if I get to channel 4 free DD through to my magic phase. However, based on page 504, it seems clear that the intent is that they not be allowed to use it. That said, if my opponent feels strongly the other way when we discuss it pre-game, I'm quite content to let it stand... I don't really bring wizards to let them cast, but rather to carry items around :)