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ltsobel
05-08-2010, 19:33
Why do the Empire and Bretonnia armies lack foot knights? They seem a natural choice given the mounted knights in both forces and would add a good variety that most other forces have. I seem to remember waaay back the Empire had some but they are not available any more.

Ive searched through the back posts and seen that some want them but nothing about what happened and why they are not there.

dragonet111
05-08-2010, 19:41
In 5ed Bretonnian had a virtue that allow you to field a knight on foot.

Now with the Bretonnian I think it is because a Knight without a horse is not a real knight. I mean you need a mighty steed to be a Knight.:D

DDogwood
05-08-2010, 19:42
Bretonnia used to have foot knights, too, but that was WAY back before their 5th Ed reboot.

I think that Greatswords are supposed to be equivalent to foot knights, but it would be nice to have the Reiksguard back. With Bretonnia, the current fluff gives a (weak) reason for their knights to fight mounted, but IMO this is as dumb as every other cavalry force being too stupid to use the lance formation.

Tavendale
05-08-2010, 20:49
You can field a Bretonnian character on foot with the virtue of (iirc) empathy.
Not a unit, just a character.

Havock
05-08-2010, 20:53
Brets should have a unit, yes, knights are arrogant, but this stereotypical 'will refuse to fight on foot evah!' is a bit... Dumb.

RunepriestRidcully
05-08-2010, 21:02
And it could be a good idea for a unit of Pentinent Knights, knights who for some slight or dishonour (Wherever real or not) consider themselves not worthy of steeds, and thus fight on foot in repentance?

Malorian
05-08-2010, 21:09
Bah! Who needs knights on foot! You start adding things like that to a bret army and all you have is another empire army (great swords).

I just think it's odd that in 8th they will dismount to attack a building but then promptly leave to get back on their horses :wtf:

yabbadabba
05-08-2010, 21:11
Why would having foot knights benefit an Empire army?

enyoss
05-08-2010, 21:21
Brets did have foot knights back in 3rd edition. Empire also had Reiksguard Foot back in 4th edition, and it was a pity they got rid of them. Granted, they added virtually zero tactical flexibility, but it was nice to have the choice and the models were great.

spetswalshe
05-08-2010, 21:24
I suppose it's just basically Swordsmen with heavy armour.

I don't think foot knights are appropriate for Bretonnia; it isn't a case of never holding a sword if you aren't in a saddle (see Mordheim), but the entire Bretonnian military is based around elite heavy cavalry and ugly, poorly equipped infantry. Unless defending a building or fighting in the streets (for which we have Mordheim), a Bretonnian knight should be on a horse, charging at something. I mean a battlefield is a huge place, if you own a horse (and have trained most of your life for horseback fighting) you're going to use it; it'd be like a Lord of Change walking everywhere.

I've always wanted a M@A unit led by a Paladin, but on a horse, mind; no point getting your greaves dirty like some kind of peasant. If I want extra detail for dismounting mid-battle, I will, inevitably, see Mordheim. However, I do feel the Questing Vow would 'feel' better if it was a ban on horseback travel; it'd feel very penitent, and make much more sense than a trained sword-and-shield fighter, upon being told he can't use a lance, deciding to drop his other weapons switch to one massive sword.

Korraz
05-08-2010, 21:43
Knights are riding. That's what it says on the tin.

Also, feet are beneath a nobleman.

xxRavenxx
05-08-2010, 21:57
I'd put money down that when brets get a redo (sometime in 2012 :P ) they'll gain knights on foot, or at least some proper men at arms (ie. skilled troops) rather than the untrained foot rabble.

yabbadabba
05-08-2010, 22:02
I'd put money down that when brets get a redo (sometime in 2012 :P ) they'll gain knights on foot, or at least some proper men at arms (ie. skilled troops) rather than the untrained foot rabble. Nah, when Warhammer Siege gets rereleased we will see all armies getting dismounted cavalry :evilgrin:.
As for Brets I can see MAA staying the same, but getting a buff upgrade to purchase.

Havock
05-08-2010, 22:02
Bah! Who needs knights on foot! You start adding things like that to a bret army and all you have is another empire army (great swords).

I just think it's odd that in 8th they will dismount to attack a building but then promptly leave to get back on their horses :wtf:

That's like saying that with knightly orders and inner circle knights, you might just as well be playing Bretonnia if you want to go that route.

Bretonnia still has a totally different -medieval- feel to it, giving them heavy infantry and properly trained men at arms will not diminish that, it will however feel like the close combat oriented human army, rather than the shooty/combined arms one ;)

All in all, I think bretonnia should get its **** out of the dark ages and into proper human management, you can be all the high-and-mighty noble you want, but it pays to have a professional army that has more to it than the few dozen nobles you bring along. It worked in medieval Europe, add monsters and other gribblies to the mix who want to eat you/the world and there's all the more reason to do so.

It would make the army better and the fluff less rolleye-worthy.
If you can afford to equip your men-at-arms with polearms and some metal armor pieces, you can afford to train them, if they can afford it themselves, they can afford some training time.

Malorian
05-08-2010, 22:40
All in all, I think bretonnia should get its **** out of the dark ages and into proper human management, you can be all the high-and-mighty noble you want, but it pays to have a professional army that has more to it than the few dozen nobles you bring along. It worked in medieval Europe, add monsters and other gribblies to the mix who want to eat you/the world and there's all the more reason to do so.

Unfortunately GW is going backwards with their fluff rather than forwards...

The next Bret book might even have Giles le Breton :rolleyes:

Leogun_91
05-08-2010, 22:47
Unfortunately GW is going backwards with their fluff rather than forwards...

The next Bret book might even have Giles le Breton :rolleyes:The grailcompanions would be the ultimate use of lords forming units of their own.

Urgat
05-08-2010, 23:05
Knights are riding. That's what it says on the tin.

Also, feet are beneath a nobleman.

That being said, horses are beneath the wall, when we'ra talking about castles. Even knights need to dismount if they wanna defend the strongholds of their dukedoms...

Lord of Divine Slaughter
06-08-2010, 08:28
Nah, castles are just for show and keeping the peasants in awe. A true knight rides out to meet the enemy on the battlefield.

Knights defending castles, preposterous! :D

ltsobel
06-08-2010, 08:52
Im sure in Medieval tournaments there were whole competitions with dismounted fighting as well as the lance stuff.

Lordsaradain
06-08-2010, 09:17
Greatswords are pretty much dismounted knights, so IMO Empire doesnt need any"foot-rieksguard" or whatever.

Korraz
06-08-2010, 09:17
That being said, horses are beneath the wall, when we'ra talking about castles. Even knights need to dismount if they wanna defend the strongholds of their dukedoms...

Real Bretonnian Knights do not defend castles. If the enemy comes, they charge and challenge them to fight real battles, one on one :evilgrin:

ltsobel
06-08-2010, 09:21
Bah i started this thread as a reason why i wont collect either and now i want to buy some Brets, damn you all :P

Lord of the End Times
06-08-2010, 10:00
I like the idea of questing knights having horses as an optional addition. That would seem the most fluffy way of doing it. All the other knights would be too proud to fight on foot unless they had to. That would make some fantastic models too, huge straight swords, plate armour and an Aragorn hairdo.
The only other way I can think of is some kind of poor knights who hold a title but cannot afford a horse, but that seems less likely. I'm not holding my breath but a man can dream I suppose.

shelfunit.
06-08-2010, 10:06
I suppose from a purely modeling perspective, getting a load of other manufacturers historical crusaders on foot and sticking 2 to a cavalry base would work on a visual level, but might look a bit odd zooming around the battlefield at up to 16" for a normal march move...

dragonet111
06-08-2010, 10:18
Using the Bretonnian language a knight is called a chevalier, a cheval is a horse, so the steed is some kind of a must have.

PS: This is just a joke.:D

ltsobel
06-08-2010, 11:25
Maybe a poor knight could use a peasant to carry them? :P

Commissar Vaughn
06-08-2010, 11:45
I still use some of the old Reiksguard Foot occasionally. At least they knew what full plate looked like back then....

Id like to have foot knights for Bretonnians. English knights often fought dismounted. So did everyone else. Had 'em in 4th and earlier. Dunno why they lost em.

Dunno why they ended up with a trebuchet either. Or any of the other usless baggae that seems to be the hallmark of any army book these days.

biggreengribbly
06-08-2010, 12:16
Also, feet are beneath a nobleman.

I'm pretty sure feet are beneath your average Peasant too ;) those that still Have feet at least :D

Druidic
06-08-2010, 12:28
Ok, talking historical for a moment.

When you talking mid 14th Century (Crecy, etc) In England knights learnt to ride to battle, and dismount before engaging in Combat (Durham is a very good example between the English annd Scottish knights) but in Europe the french (who the Bretonnians are kind of based on) never really learnt this fact and insisted on riding into combat.

Unfortunatly for the french, the english archers knew how to deal with this (prepaire the ground, small spikes in the soil, trip pits, that sort of thing) and could butcher the HORSES on the way in sewing massive confussion and breaking the charge before it ever made it home.

On a Warhammer Basis, did not the Summer of Chaos have dismounted Knights of Ulric?

Dismounted Bretonnians does not work for me, wrong age, but dismounted Wars of the Roses knights (ala Empire) does as more often then not they fought on foot.

All of this asside, Warhammer is a representative "Game" therefore anything is valid as it changes the "Feel" of an army and the meta game, so while a rule of armies compesition may not be historically accurate or representative, its a mechanic and nothing more!

Ephigy
06-08-2010, 12:31
I still use some of the old Reiksguard Foot occasionally. At least they knew what full plate looked like back then...

I liked the Reiksguard on foot =)

freddieyu
06-08-2010, 12:37
Brets did have foot knights back in 3rd edition. Empire also had Reiksguard Foot back in 4th edition, and it was a pity they got rid of them. Granted, they added virtually zero tactical flexibility, but it was nice to have the choice and the models were great.

I managed to get 4 models of them foot reiksguard knights a couple of weeks ago. I can add them to the greatswords, or make them plate armored heroes...

Ah the nostalgia. At least with GW games you can use old models, unlike CCGs (unless its a type 1 game)

StrawberryMcFairyShoes
06-08-2010, 12:41
Real Bretonnian Knights do not defend castles. If the enemy comes, they charge and challenge them to fight real battles, one on one :evilgrin:
Makes you wonder why they built castles in the first way... To keep the peasants out?

Steam_Giant
06-08-2010, 12:55
Maybe a poor knight could use a peasant to carry them? :P

But then who would carry the coconuts......... :D

Rochr
06-08-2010, 12:58
Bretonnians are jousters, so it only makes sense that after they have been at it with a lance they come down from the horse and go at it with the morning star/sword or whatever.

Korraz
06-08-2010, 13:57
Makes you wonder why they built castles in the first way... To keep the peasants out?

Exactly.


I'm pretty sure feet are beneath your average Peasant too ;) those that still Have feet at least :D

Finally! Now that took long enough.

Aluinn
06-08-2010, 14:25
That's like saying that with knightly orders and inner circle knights, you might just as well be playing Bretonnia if you want to go that route.

Bretonnia still has a totally different -medieval- feel to it, giving them heavy infantry and properly trained men at arms will not diminish that, it will however feel like the close combat oriented human army, rather than the shooty/combined arms one ;)

All in all, I think bretonnia should get its **** out of the dark ages and into proper human management, you can be all the high-and-mighty noble you want, but it pays to have a professional army that has more to it than the few dozen nobles you bring along. It worked in medieval Europe, add monsters and other gribblies to the mix who want to eat you/the world and there's all the more reason to do so.

It would make the army better and the fluff less rolleye-worthy.
If you can afford to equip your men-at-arms with polearms and some metal armor pieces, you can afford to train them, if they can afford it themselves, they can afford some training time.

The concept of a professional army actually didn't exist until the Middle Ages were well and truly done with. Essentially it requires a centralized government--perhaps governing a very small region, but still centralized within that--making extensive use of currency (quite possibly borrowing it from a banker), combined with a degree of mass production--a very limited degree compared to what we are familiar with today, granted, but still. None of these existed in the Middle Ages proper. It is of course debatable what the end date for the Middle Ages was, but I've rarely heard any historian place it before the 15th C. except for a few who count it from the end of the Black Plague (and of course it's recognized that the shift to a new economic and political system to mark this was gradual anyway). However, Bretonnia, in a number of ways, seems based upon roughly the 11th-13th C.

During the height of the Medieval period it was extremely rare to see knights fighting on foot. Pride probably played a role in that, but above all it really just defeated the purpose of their specialized equipment and training. They would do so when it was demanded by the terrain, or they had eaten or otherwise lost their horses, but that's about it. Even the terrain situation was pretty rare because they would for obvious reasons prefer to simply delay battle until they could fight it on firmer or more even ground rather than fight dismounted.

I realize Bretonnia isn't supposed to be perfectly historical, but it seems entirely suitable to me that Men at Arms have WS2 and that the various knights do not dismount. Now, for the Empire, which is plainly rooted firmly in the Renaissance, trained footsoldiers and dismounted knights make a lot more sense, so I think it'd be fine for GW to bring back Reiksguard on foot (or other Orders for that matter).

Empire foot knights would probably have to have a special rule or two to differentiate them from Greatswords (along with a lack of Stubborn and, well, the great swords themselves), but they could fill a different niche by being extremely resilient for their cost.

Havock
06-08-2010, 14:36
Greatswords are pretty much dismounted knights, so IMO Empire doesnt need any"foot-rieksguard" or whatever.

They should have an 'inner circle' option.

Not wearing a shield is actually correct; they fell out of favour historically when full plate became 'common'.

Also, though large standing armies didn't exist until the 15th century, quality of the 'foot troops' obviously tended to differ between nobles, although Bretonnia's hatred of Mercenaries might actually curb the ambition of professonial soldiering (who tend to go from place to place, wherever needed), so in that regard the bret book may be fine.

Still, most armies that saw frequent use -and face it, with daemonic incursions, undead uprisings and greenskin invasions every other day, they will :p- would have at least a core of 'hardened' soldiers. Also, house longbowmen would add variety.

The biggest advantage of going this way would be that you have the option of goign knight heavy, or taking infantry along without having to resort to those merchant princes and their servants in puffy pants :p

chamelion 6
06-08-2010, 14:49
Strangely, despite their look, I see the Britonians as the least historic of all the armies. Skaven, maybe being the next...

the Brits, to me are the embodyment of Arthur's Knights and their ideals. The army purposly detaches itself from anything historical and embraces the ideal of chivalry instead. The foot army are untrained pesants because on in that context can Arthur's Knights have purpose. If all is well and good in the realm, who need's 'em? There must be a quest, a wrong to set right.

Dismounting knights and training pesants are valid historic notions, but then the Britonians stop being Britonians and become 14th century French....

Personally I prefer the aura of the Artharian ideal. But then I don't play them.

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-08-2010, 15:04
Brets should have a unit, yes, knights are arrogant, but this stereotypical 'will refuse to fight on foot evah!' is a bit... Dumb.

I think you pretty much summed up the Bretonnian fluff. The lack of foot knight is really just a small part of it.

Luisjoey
06-08-2010, 17:10
Why would having foot knights benefit an Empire army?

Imperial Plate + Shield + Hand Weapon =

Ws 4 Strike
Save 3+
Ward 6+ for parry

those footknights could do great!

but is the empire, their nobles had horses and thats why we have imperial knights saving 1+ :D

Korraz
06-08-2010, 17:22
So, basically, 3+/6+ Greatswords without detatchments?

StrawberryMcFairyShoes
06-08-2010, 17:49
So, basically, 3+/6+ Greatswords without detatchments?
And no great swords.

yabbadabba
06-08-2010, 18:26
Imperial Plate + Shield + Hand Weapon =

Ws 4 Strike
Save 3+
Ward 6+ for parry

those footknights could do great!

but is the empire, their nobles had horses and thats why we have imperial knights saving 1+ :DMeh.
I'd rather have a unit of elite halberdiers wth heavy/full plate armour

StrawberryMcFairyShoes
06-08-2010, 18:35
Meh.
I'd rather have a unit of elite halberdiers wth heavy/full plate armour

Oh Landsknechts!