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Hashulaman
05-08-2010, 19:57
I know WoC were decent at best in 7th. Now that 8th has come around they have gotten a huge boost, yet there are alot of people (even here) who still look at them with a "Meh" attitude. Is it because they have next to no shooting? Is it because DoC was so much more powerful that stepping out of their shadow in the chaos department is near impossible since many people have a 7th mentality?


Its is very possible that they are looked on more seriously elsewhere but where I am noone except me and probably 1-2 other guys take them seriously. They aren't discussed much on the boards as well save from tactic threads.

P.S. The same seems to be for Dwarfs, Brets and Wood Elves, but I know nothing about them. I'm just commenting on what army I know.

Caladin
05-08-2010, 20:03
Respect is earned, and so is fear. If and when WoC armies start massacring people then they'll garner the fear, er respect, they deserve.
Personally they already scare me.

Lord Malorne
05-08-2010, 20:17
First of all, bad thread title, say what the topic is about.

Second, what boosts have they gotten that puts them ahead of other armies that got the same boosts? Really, i'm curious.

Peril
05-08-2010, 20:32
They got a viable horde unit (marauders w/ great weapon), Trolls got a LOT better (reroll stupidity wtih Throgg or BSB, Monstrous Infantry Support, Stomp, Ranks), Giant got better (T.Stomp), Chariots got better (no instakill), Hellcannon got alot better (Monster+Handlers, Template weapon upgrade, Stayed at S5/10).

Knights got worse only in that they cannot break large infantry unit by themselves on the charge anymore. They are still just as deadly as before otherwise.

Most armies either didnt get as many positives, or got more negative adjustments than WoC.

Paraelix
05-08-2010, 22:10
All armies got a boost... But people are still of the same mindset and opinions about armies that they were 6 months ago...

Havock
05-08-2010, 22:13
All armies got a boost...

No they didn't.

Warriors are fine, its just that the previous go-to list doesn't work anymore (horsemen + knights), some say that's a good thing, but those some are usually those who haven't invested time and money in the army, so they can stuff their opinion where the sun don't shine.

In short, WoC will do the same thing it always did, except you'll likely need to buy MORE! infantry.

Bauknefer
05-08-2010, 22:17
I think the warriors are going to be terrifying and im glad i sold them and bought skaven. The army with MoT mauraders with HW/SH or even doing that with warriors makes a really tough anvil unit and then halberd khorne warriors or 10 chaos knights on a flank. I would go for khorne on the knights. followed up by restraining frenzy. and lets not forget the tzeench magic which has always been good and now it is easier to cast and better then most lores out there. But i think the best part is a chaos lord with MoT on a disk with a halberd and 4+ ward item giving him a 3+ ward. Oh and a 2+ armor save against shooting if he has a shield. I really like the army i dont think they are broken but i think they are too strong for friendly games.

Lord Malorne
05-08-2010, 22:20
Yeah thats one thing I think may see a lot more play, khorne knights, as getting the charge is not the most important thing now, that frenzy can be great now.

Paraelix
05-08-2010, 22:29
No they didn't.


An intellectual and eloquent argument if ever I saw one...

Blackknight1239
05-08-2010, 23:34
Dude, I play Bretonnia. I have enough trouble trying to get people to see that Brets haven't rolled over and died because Cavalry is fairly balanced now. It's hard, ahah.

But, honestly, I don't think they will make a big splash, WoC. While they do have their strengths, I don't think it's enough to call them "best army ever". Their lack of templates really hurts them.

shakedown47
06-08-2010, 00:00
In 9 various 8th edition games so far, my WoC list has lost only once. I field 3 20-man blocks of unmarked marauders with flails, 4 10-man unmarked with flails, and two units of Tzeentch warriors with shields and halberds. Add to that a chaos lord, a level 3 shadow mage, a BSB, a hellcannon, and two marauder horsemen units.

Long story short, 18 chaos warriors are hard to beat in combat. They're striking first against most units in the game, dishing out 19 str 5 attacks to the front, unless there's a character in there. They're 3+/6+ versus shooting and ranged magic, and 4+/6 (the equivalent save of any other hard armoured army out there with a parry bonus) in combat, except they get their ward save versus any type of attack from any direction, not just straight close combat attacks to the front.

Not exactly broken, but they certainly demand respect from an enemy. Last night I laughed off a combined charge of Ogres, a 5-man unit of Ironguts with a BSB in my front and the Tyrant's 6-strong bulls in the flank (combat to the front was continuing, but later we rolled it off as though it had all happened on one charge, and I still won.) WoC are no joke.

Havock
06-08-2010, 00:04
An intellectual and eloquent argument if ever I saw one...

Well you said all of them, which is simply not true ;)

Valtiel
06-08-2010, 00:13
As Chaos Warriors are some of the most expensive (if not the most expensive) infantry models in the game they really should be some of the best in close combat. And they are against most opponents. Through the games I've had my local gaming buddies have cried cheese at my apparently over the top units of Marauders and Chaos Warriors that they have trouble beating in close combat.

From my point of view I can see that they have become very powerful. And shouldn't they be? They pay the points for the stats and doesn't get to gain advantage from many rules such as ASF, Hatred or regeneration (mostly on the last one). You just need to rely more on flank charges and shooting to take them down these day, and not do like my opponents and charge a single regiment of Spearmen into the front of 17 Khorne Chaos Warriors.:shifty:

I think Warriors of Chaos have become a better army in the new edition. We lacked mobility in the form of Skirmishers before but now that skirmishers aren't as special as before we can manage along with the new rules that makes movement more easy. I think most units are now pretty good (except Spawn that got hit in this new edition and Forsaken are still bad) but perhaps Dragon Ogres aren't as interesting to take anymore instead of the improved Chaos Trolls. hell, I think Chaos Knights are some of the best support units in the game (as all cavalry is now support units), give them the flaming attacks banner and be able to butcher bother regeneration monsters and ethereal monsters along with other units.

Havock
06-08-2010, 00:24
Warriors do perform admirably now, and indeed, most of the time it will be your opponent having to flank them, rather than the other way around.

Still, big units are the key, if only so that after you beat the **** out of your opponent, you 'outrank' them.

Lord of the End Times
06-08-2010, 00:24
WoC are great in 8th. We have a range of brutally good infantry, and our Khorne knights still massacre most things out there. Our heros are hardcore and we can take some scary magic. In terms of packing maximum killing power into a small frontage, there are few things that can match warriors or chosen. Our initiative is high across the board so we strike first against basically anything other than elves, which is a huge advantage.
A successful 8th edition WoC army is a completely different beast to its 7th edition equivalent, it contains very few of the same models. I am not complaining as I run an infantry list anyway (little magic, only one small unit of knights).

Warp-Juicer
06-08-2010, 00:42
One thing I wasn't paying attention to was the fact that we've got killing blow immunity for characters mounted on daemonic steeds and juggernaughts!

Paraelix
06-08-2010, 00:55
Well you said all of them, which is simply not true ;)

Because...?

Seriously... BRB Lores for most armies.

Additional ranks of fighters benefits every army. (and missile fire)

Steadfast- benefits every army.

BSB bonuses- benefits every army.

Stomp/Thunderstomp benefit most armies.

MR stacking with Ward benefits several armies and many heroes.

Volley Fire benefits a large number of missile equipped troops.

Initiative combats mean Initiative is actually used. Most armies with low Initiative compensate by being tough and/or cheap.

Please feel free to outline some points for me... I mean, sure, ridiculous army builds with no standards or MSU lists suffer... But that is not the army, that is your list.

Havock
06-08-2010, 02:39
Tomb Kings.

Wood Elves, sure, the book has decent builds, however, these will totally be the opposite of what people will likely own. Which, you know, sucks?

List = army.

It is my army, I own it, I invested time and effort in it. I saw my cav chaos go down the drain. 'Good' say some people, 'go do a piece of garden ornament' I say.
It's a bunch of time and money -and let's face it, my army got shafted several times over in the past few years- that keeps getting wasted becasue the doublefix & doublenerf approach GW does.

Paraelix
06-08-2010, 02:46
Tomb Kings.

Wood Elves, sure, the book has decent builds, however, these will totally be the opposite of what people will likely own. Which, you know, sucks?

List = army.

It is my army, I own it, I invested time and effort in it. I saw my cav chaos go down the drain. 'Good' say some people, 'go do a piece of garden ornament' I say.
It's a bunch of time and money -and let's face it, my army got shafted several times over in the past few years- that keeps getting wasted becasue the doublefix & doublenerf approach GW does.

Tomb Kings are freaking scary. Light Chariots count as Fast Cav still, no? Ergo free move before the game... They benefit from most of the rule advancements, enabling more shooting from a smaller battleline, more attacks from basic infantry, Ushabti using their initiative, fighting in ranks and stomping. They have (more or less) 2 dispel phases. They have gained access to all the same new items.

Wood Elves you just admitted are good.

Ah but here we hit the moot point. I am arguing for the sake of the army, as in the book, models, rules, etc. The ARMY has improved. Your list has not, but that is irrelevant to the discussion. It is not the fault of Games Workshop that you purchased those models and constructed your army in such a way... You chose to build your army that way.

I took several hits when they moved beasts and mortals in different directions, but it didn't make the Warriors a bad army, it just made my list irrelevant.

So in future, don't bag a general concept of things (the Armies) when your gripe is of a more personal nature (your own models).

Dhaemian
06-08-2010, 03:11
Tomb Kings.
I have seen them play a couple games under 8th edition now. And frankly they scare me a lot. More so than before under 7th.


Wood Elves, sure, the book has decent builds, however, these will totally be the opposite of what people will likely own. Which, you know, sucks?
That is another matter.


List = army.

It is my army, I own it, I invested time and effort in it. I saw my cav chaos go down the drain. 'Good' say some people, 'go do a piece of garden ornament' I say.
It's a bunch of time and money -and let's face it, my army got shafted several times over in the past few years- that keeps getting wasted because the doublefix & doublenerf approach GW does.
Though it's true your list = your army. That doesn't mean that what holds true for you holds true for every chaos player.
For information I went from a full cavalry chaos list to 50/50. So I have the same exact problem (money and time wise that is).
But just remember this: the list gets wasted yes, the models no.

Havock
06-08-2010, 15:18
Tomb Kings are freaking scary. Light Chariots count as Fast Cav still, no? Ergo free move before the game... They benefit from most of the rule advancements, enabling more shooting from a smaller battleline, more attacks from basic infantry, Ushabti using their initiative, fighting in ranks and stomping. They have (more or less) 2 dispel phases. They have gained access to all the same new items.

And these chariots kill what exactly? :p


Wood Elves you just admitted are good.

One build, which is the complete opposite of just about every wood elf army I have seen, and -yes- I know it's the 'list=/=army' thing, but when multiple wood elf players you knwo literally say 'F-this', because they will have to spend a few hundred bucks to make their complete army work again, yeah, then, yeah, wood elves got hit. And I'm fairly sure they are not a minority.


Ah but here we hit the moot point. I am arguing for the sake of the army, as in the book, models, rules, etc. The ARMY has improved. Your list has not, but that is irrelevant to the discussion. It is not the fault of Games Workshop that you purchased those models and constructed your army in such a way... You chose to build your army that way.

Yes, based on perfectly logical reasons. But anyway, it is my fault that I don't buy wathes of models I don't need, right. They pay you how much to think this way?


I took several hits when they moved beasts and mortals in different directions, but it didn't make the Warriors a bad army, it just made my list irrelevant.

Same thing, my list is my army. I felt it was complete, bam, armybook rewrite "Oh you can't use those nomore but lol legendary battles!"
-No...
"Oh sorry you went cav heavy, we rather have it you pay bucks on infantry blocks"
- Fffffffuuuuuuuuuuu


So in future, don't bag a general concept of things (the Armies) when your gripe is of a more personal nature (your own models).

Yes, becasue we all merely have to buy new stuff together, because that's fun, and yay!

Unit fillers ahoy on my end.

Dhaemian
06-08-2010, 15:38
And these chariots kill what exactly? :p



One build, which is the complete opposite of just about every wood elf army I have seen, and -yes- I know it's the 'list=/=army' thing, but when multiple wood elf players you knwo literally say 'F-this', because they will have to spend a few hundred bucks to make their complete army work again, yeah, then, yeah, wood elves got hit. And I'm fairly sure they are not a minority.

Well new players are far worse of. Played 5th then stopped and sold all.
Started again in march 2010 with a list setup for 7th and bought the whole army. Dropped a ****load of cash. Now I will have models I don't need anymore unless we start playing 3k+ (:mad: fantastic!!!!!)

Yes it's a pain. Yes it costs money. But damn it's a hobby. If people can't relax anymore while assembling/converting/painting/playing then they should just sell the stuff and find a new hobby.

As for all those models already assembled and that you can't use anymore, well maybe a glass cabinet for the whole army is a way to go. Always nice to show off :D
Wait to be able to use them again and else sell the models or use them as some other model. There's always a way.


Btw this is going way off topic so we should stop this here.