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Hashulaman
05-08-2010, 20:13
Okay this will be an Opinion based thread and I will probably catch Hell for this but....


What do you consider the iconic warhammer armies, the "core" of Warhammer? To me, it would be Empire, Orcs/Goblins, Dwarfs, High Elves, and chaos but more specificly Warriors of Chaos.

This is what I think of when I think Warhammer. This is not who is the "best army" thread and is based on Fluff and personal opinion more than anything.

Orcboy_Phil
05-08-2010, 20:16
Skaven, its the only race with a compltly unique charecter to it that wasn't lifted of off something else. Okay there are some hints of Nimh and Lieber in there too.

Haravikk
05-08-2010, 21:01
I'd probably say Chaos as well, in both Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 they're the iconic force that shapes a lot of the background of every race.

enyoss
05-08-2010, 21:02
Weirdly, I was thinking about this exact question yesterday, and I came to the same conclusion as you Hashulaman. Those five armies do seem absolutely key in the history and are revisited and treated with new models more than most.

Rockgut
05-08-2010, 21:23
Lizards are probably core seeing as they were the first race.

kyussinchains
05-08-2010, 22:10
I think the OP is spot on, it covers the orcs, elves and dwarfs you would expect from a fantasy setting, as well as the great overwhelming evil of chaos, and you have to have a human race in there for us other humans to relate to....

Ghazbad_Facestompa
05-08-2010, 22:36
I agree with the OP as well.

unheilig
05-08-2010, 22:36
to me, its Warriors of Chaos.

The Chaos Warrior was my first exposure to GW, and the first citadel mini I owned (some 25 years ago).

Entropolus
05-08-2010, 22:40
IMHO...
Orcs, elves and dwarfs are what make it Fantasy.
Chaos is what makes it Warhammer

Malorian
05-08-2010, 22:51
When I think of core warhammer I think of empire vs orcs.

SamVimes
05-08-2010, 23:03
Chaos. It frames the Warhammer World and it is the primary necessity for the background. Without Chaos, the Warhammer World would be missing the very basics of what made the world the way it was, even if the idea of Chaos is copped from Moorcock. Without it, well, it wouldn't be Warhammer, that's for sure.

Agnar the Howler
05-08-2010, 23:11
I see Warhammer very much as Empire vs Warriors of Chaos, similarly I see W40k as the Imperium vs Chaos (marines imparticular on both sides) and the Warcraft games as Humans vs Orcs; to me they're the mainly Good vs Evil pairings.

Orcs/Orks could be counted in the warhammer scenes too, but they don't strike me as particularly 'evil', War is all they know, so a part of me feels that they're not innately evil and more just powered by what nature gave them.

Beings of Chaos (mortals, at least), however, are mortals who turned sides due to promises of power etc. They fight not because it is an in-built mechanic, but because the more killing they do, the powerful they become. They do it out of choice, unlike the Orcs who do it because it is all they know.

That's just my opinion, though.

Dr Death
05-08-2010, 23:16
If you add 'Undead' to the original poster's list you actually have all the original armies for Warmaster, so there is certainly something in that and i certainly wouldn't disagree with it. I mean granted there are races that are more 'uniquely Warhammer' but in a sense that isn't the point of warhammer- warhammer isn't about trend-setting, it's about trend enhancing- hell the very point of the game coming into being was as a byproduct of rpg's and so i do despair whenever Games Workshop or warhammer fans try to make it out as something greater than it is- it's greatest strength has always been the intelligent and self-aware way it jovially rips off everything else. The races mentioned are the essential building blocks of the warhammer setting- fantasy tropes lifted and shone through the twisted 'monty python'esque lens of Rick Priestly et al to create the solid foundation of Warhammer.

Dr Death

AFnord
05-08-2010, 23:22
I also agree with the OP, though I would probably drop dwarfs from that lists. While one could make a case for lizardmen and their background, LM does not feel like an essential army to the game, and the whole old ones fluff could easily be dropped without it impacting the game world in any major way.

Idle Scholar
05-08-2010, 23:32
I would say chaos but I've read some of Moorcocks work :/

TBH I would say WH is the sum of it's parts. In a way I guess it's a bit of a problem for the marketing guy's. 40k has Marines but I don't think fantasy has an equivalent.

CrystalSphere
05-08-2010, 23:38
For me orcs and goblins are the most iconic warhammer race, as they were one of the first orcs to be green (unlike tolkien ones) and to have a fun personality:D

Wakerofgods
05-08-2010, 23:46
I think the opening post is spot on. They just seem the most...protaginast ... well I didn't spell that word right!

It seems like the story of the old world is written from the point of view of the empire and there are then a circle of races close to this (the ones in the opening post) and after those a circle of races that are still central and pivotal to the warhammer world in an 'abstract' sense but not central from the point of the story we are actively being told.

There is the main character, the empire, the major characters, the ones in the OP and then there are the rest. That isn't to say the rest arn't important in their own spheres - but they arn't all that central 'at the moment' to the sphere we are being told about.

Valtiel
06-08-2010, 00:00
To me it's the battle between the forces of Order (the human nations, High Elves and Dwarfs) against the forces of Chaos that has from the beginning of the Warhammer story been corrupting and destroying the world. It is an iconic image of good versus evil and while there are many other factions that are a huge threat I don't think any is pictured as the Chaos armies when they march to war.

Faeslayer
06-08-2010, 19:34
Chaos and the Empire are Warhammer in my view. The look and feel of the two, and the conflict of 14th-century-ish old worlders vs. hulking daemon-worshipping barbarians from the twisted north is just warhammer in a nutshell to me, and something I have yet to see any fantasy setting really top.

Spoik
06-08-2010, 19:46
I think that Chaos Warriors come closest to being the iconic Warhammer 'race.'

GW's Orcs are pretty distinctive, as well.

Interestingly, I believe that Fimir were intended to be the iconic Warhammer race, but, as we know, they never caught on, for a variety of reasons.

Citizen Lame
06-08-2010, 19:49
I also agree with the OP but would probably include VC too. Tomb Kings I really struggle to 'believe' in the Warhammer world, if thats the right word.

Gloryseeker
06-08-2010, 20:10
chaos vs whoever are games workshop both whfb and 40k, with out it GW would fail.

But for main races the OP has it spot on. GW has the best background for all the races ive seen.

Dr Death
06-08-2010, 23:17
Some people here have been talking about a straight split between the 'Forces of Order' and the 'Forces of Evil', Empire vrs Chaos, but to be honest i think that kind of misses the point of Warhammer: while you can broadly categorise races as belonging to either extreme, the point of Warhammer really is that everyone's at everyone else's throat. It might be in minor ways (the equation of size and 'epicness' with appeal is a trap GW appears to have fallen into lately) but unlike 40k who's setting is dominated by this great universe-spanning event (the Horus Heresy), the strength of the Warhammer setting is not in it's background but in the perfectly poised mutual hatred of any two races- there might be reasons to ally them, but there are far more reasons to have them fight.

The six races picked by Warmaster are those with the greatest potential for that conflict. Dwarf and Elf, Empire and Undead, Orcs and Chaos- it's not hard to come up with reasons they might be going to war for, and that's what makes them the iconic races. The others- well there's plenty of reasons for them to hate each other, but they have idiosyncrasies that make them less flexible in that regard.

Dr Death

Gromdal
07-08-2010, 08:07
A warhammer with only these armies might actually be better than a new book every 5 years for all the current ones:

Empire, chaos warriors, dwarfs, elves, orcs n gobbos.

Lordsaradain
07-08-2010, 08:45
A warhammer with only these armies might actually be better than a new book every 5 years for all the current ones:

Empire, chaos warriors, dwarfs, elves, orcs n gobbos.

What about undead? Aren't they pretty iconic and important for warhammer too?

mrtn
07-08-2010, 10:48
I'd say Chaos, Empire and Skaven. The chaos vs empire conflict is what drives a lot of the world, and skaven is a unique army that's really helping to define the world as it is.

Elves, undead and dwarfs feel rather standard.

Agnar the Howler
08-08-2010, 01:52
I also agree with the OP, though I would probably drop dwarfs from that lists. While one could make a case for lizardmen and their background, LM does not feel like an essential army to the game, and the whole old ones fluff could easily be dropped without it impacting the game world in any major way.

Old Ones never came to the world = no lizardmen, no polar gates being destroyed, no daemons wars when they first came through, no portal on Ulthuan, no drastic shifting of the continents (so no destruction of dwarf kingdoms)... and let's not forget none of the races bar daemons existing...

If the Old Ones were dropped, WH would have to be re-written; that seems like a major impact to me...

sulla
08-08-2010, 03:48
Oka

What do you consider the iconic warhammer armies, the "core" of Warhammer?

Warhammer has all the traditional fantasy archetypes. The O&G, brets, all flavours of elves, dwarves, chaos... but what makes it warhammer is the details, to me. The grimness behind the facade of the shining bretonnian society, the great backstory of the elves, the all-pervading power of chaos in everything, even the magic and monsters that the good guys use.

Even though I have no intention of ever playing either of them, the two armies that I consider the two iconic armies are the Empire and Skaven. The empire because they are so different to other fantasy humans and also because they are so well fleshed out. Skaven becasue they so different to the existing fantasy evil archetypes but mash so many themes together and somehow don't come off as tacky as they should. Frankenstein + ninjas + igor + the master race has no right to be as hilarious as they are.

Souppilgrim
08-08-2010, 05:15
Old Ones never came to the world = no lizardmen, no polar gates being destroyed, no daemons wars when they first came through, no portal on Ulthuan, no drastic shifting of the continents (so no destruction of dwarf kingdoms)... and let's not forget none of the races bar daemons existing...

If the Old Ones were dropped, WH would have to be re-written; that seems like a major impact to me...

You could just say the elves did it, or the old ones.