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salamander
05-08-2010, 21:32
I managed to get transformation of kadon off this evening for the first time and it was a real game turner. I turned into a mountain chimera and he faild to dispel it in the following turn allowing me to get the charge into his temple guard. I rolled 22 for attacks!!!!! and ended up wiping out the unit, including his slann.
On this occassion it was a risk worth taking but of course I could of rolled 4 attacks, lost combat and then had it dispelled next turn.

vladsimpaler
05-08-2010, 22:20
I managed to get transformation of kadon off this evening for the first time and it was a real game turner. I turned into a mountain chimera and he faild to dispel it in the following turn allowing me to get the charge into his temple guard. I rolled 22 for attacks!!!!! and ended up wiping out the unit, including his slann.
On this occassion it was a risk worth taking but of course I could of rolled 4 attacks, lost combat and then had it dispelled next turn.

Yikes! That's pretty impressive considering the average is 14 which is -still- really disgusting. :D

Congrats on the 22 though, that's just nasty. I remember when I first saw the stats for it, and my face made a :eek: then a :wtf:

Tyranno1
05-08-2010, 22:22
Actually, its frenzied. Meaning 4D6+1 attacks. Not much extra, but it means 5 is the mimimum.

Glad to hear it can deliver the pain, as I plan to make one at some point. =)

Malorian
05-08-2010, 22:53
and ended up wiping out the unit, including his slann.

I assume you mean you wiped out the temple guard and ran down the slann...

shakedown47
05-08-2010, 23:13
So we've been playing it that you're effectively rolling for it's attacks characteristic every turn, and since no characteristic can have a value above 10, we cap the Mountain Chimera's attacks at 10. Does anyone else play this way?

vladsimpaler
06-08-2010, 00:42
So we've been playing it that you're effectively rolling for it's attacks characteristic every turn, and since no characteristic can have a value above 10, we cap the Mountain Chimera's attacks at 10. Does anyone else play this way?

Interesting. I thought that wounds and attacks had no theoretical limit. Oh wait, I'm thinking of Rogue Trader/3rd edition Warhammer Fantasy now. :o

deggaroth
06-08-2010, 00:50
So we've been playing it that you're effectively rolling for it's attacks characteristic every turn, and since no characteristic can have a value above 10, we cap the Mountain Chimera's attacks at 10. Does anyone else play this way?

Could I get a BRB page number for this? For some reason, I also thought that attacks was an exception to the rule.

Souppilgrim
06-08-2010, 01:29
So we've been playing it that you're effectively rolling for it's attacks characteristic every turn, and since no characteristic can have a value above 10, we cap the Mountain Chimera's attacks at 10. Does anyone else play this way?

My area does not. The attack characteristic is 4D6, not 10 or 14 or whatever. If it were the other way it would roll significantly above 10 most of the time....4D6 would be virtually pointless.

fubukii
06-08-2010, 01:43
all stats cap at 10 so the chimera can never exceed 10 attacks sadly which makes it rather worthless

page 3 first paragraph

freebooter
06-08-2010, 01:49
Then why 4d6 attacks? Surely if they wanted it capped at 10 they would have said 4 + d6 or something along those lines?
Attacks and wounds have always been the exception to the rule of max characteristic of 10.

Odominus
06-08-2010, 01:50
Transformation is too easily dispelled. A savvy opponent would dispel very quickly.

Freman Bloodglaive
06-08-2010, 01:52
All stats cap at 10, but the MC has a stat of 4D6 which logically can go over 10. What's next, Bloodthirsters with random attacks cap at 10 too?

shakedown47
06-08-2010, 03:25
All stats cap at 10, but the MC has a stat of 4D6 which logically can go over 10. What's next, Bloodthirsters with random attacks cap at 10 too?

Well obviously the Bloodthirster was where our group looked for an answer; why they didn't just make the Chimera's attacks value 8 or 10 or something I don't know, but at least there's precedence to show that the number you end up with when you're rolling dice to generate a characteristic's value is capped at 10. It works for us, anyways.

Paraelix
06-08-2010, 03:29
I assume you mean you wiped out the temple guard and ran down the slann...

He could've Thunderstomped it.

fubukii
06-08-2010, 03:36
All stats cap at 10, but the MC has a stat of 4D6 which logically can go over 10. What's next, Bloodthirsters with random attacks cap at 10 too?

according to the daemon faq they do cap at 10.


Q. Can Dark Insanity increase a modelís number of Attacks to
greater than 10? (p92)
A. No.

riotknight
06-08-2010, 03:39
according to the daemon faq they do cap at 10.


Q. Can Dark Insanity increase a modelís number of Attacks to
greater than 10? (p92)
A. No.

Well, that does set a precedent, but 2D6+2 and 4d6+1 are miles different in the average values. I Don't foresee anyone in my group claiming that I have a max of 10 attacks.

Then again, that's just for our group.

Rogzor87
06-08-2010, 04:21
I generally see it as constant stats are at a max of 10... Anything that is randomly generated can go above it. Unless explicit FaQ or Errata is for it.

malussavage
06-08-2010, 04:39
Untill Something such as an FAQ comes out saying its attacks are capped at 10, we will continue to play it with 4D6 attacks.

I got it off with my Bray-Shaman on wed night. Took out a hydra then over ran into the flank of a unit of executioners. My opponent had a second terrible dispel roll. And I then took out the executioners aswell.

Then flew over to charge his cold one knights. He got it dispelled. I cast again on the lower value and, just to stick it in him, turned into a hydra and flammed the knights...got lucky and killed 2! that was end of game!

Awesome spell...was very lucky with it. I expect to never get it off again lol.

AlphariusOmegon20
06-08-2010, 04:57
All stats cap at 10, but the MC has a stat of 4D6 which logically can go over 10. What's next, Bloodthirsters with random attacks cap at 10 too?

I hate to tell you but they do cap at 10 with Dark Insanity.

DDogwood
06-08-2010, 04:58
according to the daemon faq they do cap at 10.


Q. Can Dark Insanity increase a model’s number of Attacks to
greater than 10? (p92)
A. No.

Does that mean that a Hell Pit Abom can't move more than 10"? If Random Movement and Random Attacks work differently, why? I'm asking honestly, not because I think I have an answer.

There might be an argument about the different wordings between Dark Insanity and Random Attacks, but it seems nitpicky.

Stronginthearm
06-08-2010, 06:41
just because dark insanity works that way doesn;t mean they all would, it just seems stupid to give the mountain Chimera the theoretical capability to go to 24 and kill it less then half way there, then again this is GW

Urgat
06-08-2010, 07:16
No, it means that chimeras have a very high chance of having 10 attacks, and a very low chance of having less. If a chimera had, say, 4+1D6 attacks, it would be likely to often have 7 or 8 attacks instead of 10 (and then people would whine and say it's crap - well of course, if it's capped at 10 people will whine, I mean, 10 measly attacks? :p).
Now I don't know if it's capped or not, but I can at least see a logic if it is indeed capped.

nagash42
06-08-2010, 07:23
I dunno in this new game of hordes and steadfast 10 attacks does seem measly lol

elite_dannux
06-08-2010, 07:26
But why give a unit that have on average 15 attacks a cap of 10?

Then they could just write 10 in as attacks as it is mega easy to roll 9+1 on 4 dice....
Thats so stupid that eaven GW cant have messed this one up...(or can they?....)

shelfunit.
06-08-2010, 07:32
Does that mean that a Hell Pit Abom can't move more than 10"? If Random Movement and Random Attacks work differently, why? I'm asking honestly, not because I think I have an answer.

There might be an argument about the different wordings between Dark Insanity and Random Attacks, but it seems nitpicky.

As far as I can tell, if it has not been FAQ/errata'd, then under the "Army book trumps Rule book" clause if your army book allows a random (or non-random) stat increase above 10, then it takes precedence over the "max 10" rule.

twistinthunder
06-08-2010, 08:32
Warhammer uses nine different statistics or characteristics to describe the various attributes of the different models.All characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10 - they cannot go below 0 or rise above 10

- 8th edition warhammer rulebook (p3).

this applies to everything,even random attacks.

Tonberry
06-08-2010, 08:52
Well, the Chimera's attacks characteristic never does rise above 10. Its attack characteristic is 4d6.

Attacks characteristic (which is capped at 10) =/= the number of attacks it puts out in a CC phase.

orcs of fire
06-08-2010, 09:13
Does that mean that a Hell Pit Abom can't move more than 10"? If Random Movement and Random Attacks work differently, why? I'm asking honestly, not because I think I have an answer.

There might be an argument about the different wordings between Dark Insanity and Random Attacks, but it seems nitpicky.

I'm interested in this aswell. For example a chaos spawn has 2d6 in its movement charcteristic - does that mean it can't move 11 or 12 inches in a turn?
And squig hoppers with 3d6 would be seriously rubbish with striking last most of the time and a top movement of 10"...

Lord of the End Times
06-08-2010, 09:31
Well, the Chimera's attacks characteristic never does rise above 10. Its attack characteristic is 4d6.

Attacks characteristic (which is capped at 10) =/= the number of attacks it puts out in a CC phase.

This is how I was looking at it. The 'characteristic' is 4D6, not 11, 15, 25 or whatever. When you roll, you are not modifying a characteristic, you are just obtaining a random result.

I totally get the other side of the argument though, I think it could be played both ways. Pending FAQ, I like to go with what I feel is most logical (although trying to apply logic to the behaviour of a fantasy monster == the road to madness). As always, best to let your opponent rule on that if you are the one casting the spell.

eyescrossed
06-08-2010, 10:01
If a HPA can only move 10", it makes them a lot less scary.

stashman
06-08-2010, 11:01
Is random movement also capped @ 10???

theunwantedbeing
06-08-2010, 12:55
Is random movement also capped @ 10???

There's a rule for having random movement, so no it's not capped.
But you don't follow the normal movement rules either.

If 3d6" was its move characteristic it could potentially charge upto 22", or could easily march 20" a turn.

Haravikk
06-08-2010, 13:01
There's a rule for Random Attacks as well that reads "Models with the Random Attacks special rule rule do not have a normal number for their Attacks characteristic, but rather a dice roll..."

It makes no mention of the cap, and implies that the normal rules for a characteristic don't apply, as 4D6 isn't between 0 and 10, it's a completely different type of value.

Sand
06-08-2010, 13:39
There's a rule for Random Attacks as well that reads "Models with the Random Attacks special rule rule do not have a normal number for their Attacks characteristic, but rather a dice roll..."

It makes no mention of the cap, and implies that the normal rules for a characteristic don't apply, as 4D6 isn't between 0 and 10, it's a completely different type of value.That's my take on it as well.

smithers
06-08-2010, 13:48
There's a rule for Random Attacks as well that reads "Models with the Random Attacks special rule rule do not have a normal number for their Attacks characteristic, but rather a dice roll..."

It makes no mention of the cap, and implies that the normal rules for a characteristic don't apply, as 4D6 isn't between 0 and 10, it's a completely different type of value.

Good find. Based on the special rule, I would say "Yes, normally a characteristic is capped at 10, but the "random attacks" rule says this is not a "normal" number, and like random movement the cap is irrelevant; chimera gets 4d6 attacks as the description. Yes, this is abnormal, but that is recognized by the random attacks special rule"

The random movement rule is written clearly to avoid the cap, since it says there is no "characteristic" involved at all.

Random attacks should be FAQ'd to clarify of course.

Aluinn
06-08-2010, 13:55
There's a rule for Random Attacks as well that reads "Models with the Random Attacks special rule rule do not have a normal number for their Attacks characteristic, but rather a dice roll..."

It makes no mention of the cap, and implies that the normal rules for a characteristic don't apply, as 4D6 isn't between 0 and 10, it's a completely different type of value.

But the total rolled becomes their Attacks characteristic for a given round of combat. The rule doesn't state that they don't have one, it states that they don't have a set number for it. I believe if the cap of 10 applies to Dark Insanity (a Bloodthirster's characteristic is not above 10 until you roll, so the principle is the same), then it has to apply to the Chimera too. The only way it wouldn't would be if the Chimera (or other things with random attacks) had no Attacks characteristic.

Random movement is described in a different way in that it explicitly says that the models "do not have a Movement characteristic". This means the cap doesn't apply because there is no stat to apply it to. I realize the difference is somewhat subtle, but I think upon close examination it is pretty clear.

In summation: Models with random attacks still have an Attacks characteristic, and thus it is capped at 10, because all characteristics are. Models with random movement do not have a Movement characteristic, and so the distance moved is not capped.

Arkh
06-08-2010, 14:02
interesting debate... Next argument we'll see is, "Well when you march, your movement characteristic can't go over 10"... So your knights only add a couple inches when they march" Likewise when you charge....

On that note. All those people complaining about infantry charging too far now have an argument as to why infantry are in fact not allowed to charge more than 10".

^ lots of sarcasm...

Poseidal
06-08-2010, 14:09
Was the bloodthirster gift errattad to be Random Attacks, or does it just say he has 2D6 or whatever attacks a turn?

It might be because the Bloodthirster doesn't use the new rules and is worded in such a way that it wouldn't avoid the cap. I don't have the book to check though.

theunwantedbeing
06-08-2010, 14:39
Dark insanity just replaces a models normal Attack characteristic with a random one.
Wasn't altered to say "random attacks" at any point.
Neither were spawns or beasts of nurgle or other things that also have a random number of attacks.

The Mountain Chimeara has in its profile an Attack characteristic of 4D6.

Tonberry
06-08-2010, 14:56
The Mountain Chimeara has in its profile an Attack characteristic of 4D6.

Exactly.

-The beastie has an attack characteristic of 4d6.

-4d6 is less than 10

-Therefore, its attack characteristic is legal within the rule of being less than 10

-Attacks rolled and actually put out in combat =/= attacks characteristic

apbevan
06-08-2010, 15:10
No where in Random attacks does it say the number you roll becomes your attack characteristic.

It does say you do not have a normal number for their attacks characteristic.
It does say each time attack you roll that many dice to see how many attacks you make.

I don't see how anyone can argue random attacks being capped at 10 but random movement not being capped at 10, both rules are making exceptions to their characteristic and explicitly telling you to use the number rolled.

kyussinchains
06-08-2010, 15:59
if the Dark Insanity FAQ was from 7th edition, I don't think it can be referred to here, maybe they will continue the rule into 8th edition, and if so fair enough, but it doesn't make sense at all to cap attacks or indeed wounds at 10....

There is precedent in the fact that a chaos spawn has a move characteristic of 2D6 and nobody seems to cap it at 10, that should be the same case if an attacks or wounds or any other characteristic is xD6, unless it specifically says so in the rules.....

theunwantedbeing
06-08-2010, 16:09
, both rules are making exceptions to their characteristic and explicitly telling you to use the number rolled.

No offence but its worth reading the rules before posting.

Models with a random number of attacks do not have a normal number for their attacks characteristic, but rather roll a dice.....

Seems clear they DO have an attacks characteristic.
Characteristics are capped at 10.

Leth Shyish'phak
06-08-2010, 16:11
Exactly.



-4d6 is less than 10



Exactly how did you decide this?

Tonberry
06-08-2010, 16:15
Exactly how did you decide this?

Well, '4d6' is a phrase, not a number. Maybe a better way of putting it would be to say that '4d6' isn't more than 10 (because it's not a number).

stashman
06-08-2010, 16:52
Can someone ask GW about this?

If alot does it, the will come out with a FAQ.

rtunian
06-08-2010, 16:54
while i personally think that they should have the dice roll plus one (these are monsters by monster-standards, after all, and so imo should have the capability of putting out more alot more attacks than an orc warboss with battleaxe of the last waaagh! or shaga's sword), i think by rule they have the dice roll plus one up to ten. the language in the cap rule is pretty damning. the language in the random attacks rule, however, doesn't seem to explicitly override the cap.

i think that urgat is right in that he who shall not be named probably meant to give us a very high chance of having the max attacks, and i suspect that it will be faq'd as such, if the faq writers deem to getting around to this issue.

edit: on the other hand, it is a wizard we are talking about. wizards usually have 1 pathetic attack right? going from 1 attack to 10 attacks, with all the other characteristic buffs too, is still pretty darn buff, if you ask me.

PurpleSun
06-08-2010, 17:10
I believe the rule is that you cannot have any more than 10 attacks in your pool at any one time, but if you use a few of your attacks and have an ability that would add more attacks at a later phase in the phase, then you could end up having more than 10 attacks by the end of the phase. So then roll 2d6 attacks, use them, then roll the other 2d6.

[If anybody posts a serious response to that which was just said, they shall be deemed to have auto failed their initiative test, and therefore would be purpled sunned into oblivion.]

Marshal Torrick
06-08-2010, 18:42
Huh? AAAHHHHH! *gets purple sun'd*

Gloryseeker
06-08-2010, 20:23
ive never thought about it especially for movement, ive been reading the O&G armybook and they have 2 units at 2D6 and 2 at 3D6 movement, which is capped at 10. Nobody is going to use squig hoppers now.

edit just thought the pup wagon it 2D6 attacks

hope this gets FAQed soon. Prob gonna be something like "all characteristics that are random may exceed the normal limit of 10"

Korraz
06-08-2010, 20:37
Random movement is special, you can move more than 10"
But hoppaz are rubbish either way.

Norau
06-08-2010, 20:40
The rule says that models with Random Attacks do not have a normal number for their Attacks characteristic, but rather a dice roll. Furthermore it says that each time a model strikes a blow, roll the indicated dice to determine the number of attacks that the model will make. So, the characteristic is "4d6", wich will add up to a "number of attacks". Hence, the characteristic is (in this case) 4d6, and not the sum of the roll.

Or so i think...

Rogzor87
06-08-2010, 21:50
Its funny I have barely seen any sort of rules lawyering like this max 10 characteristic(attacks) to stop the HPA from rocking out its attacks. Actually I have yet to see people try that. But oh noes the Mountain Chimera!

4d6 is the Creatures attack characteristic. Not 0-10. Its 4d6. It can simply have more attacks then 10. Trying to argue other-wise is just people afraid of it and trying to nerf something that is already easily stoppable.

Faeslayer
06-08-2010, 22:00
This is absurd. It's obviously 4d6 attacks.

The roll has a 90.2% chance of being 10 or more. Why would they do that?

Korraz
06-08-2010, 22:18
Hello Faeslayer! This is Warseer, seems you two didn't meet yet!

Ludaman
06-08-2010, 22:38
The only thing that makes it questionable at all is the ruling on Dark Insanity. However, this ruling is from 7th, which makes it's validity questionable. So what it comes down to for me is this: Did GW leave the dark insanity FAQ up on purpose? or did they just leave it in the 8th FAQ by mistake? Seems like transforming into a giant fire dragon is pretty worthless though, compared to that crazy-ass-chimera... unless of course the chimera is capped at 10 attacks... then I can see the trade off.

apbevan
06-08-2010, 22:57
No offence but its worth reading the rules before posting.

Models with a random number of attacks do not have a normal number for their attacks characteristic, but rather roll a dice.....

Seems clear they DO have an attacks characteristic.
Characteristics are capped at 10.Maybe you need to reed the rules and what I wrote as I never claimed they did not have an attack characteristic only that the dice roll did not become their characteristic.

The exact quote: "...do not have a normal number for their attacks characteristic, but rather a dice roll, such as Dr, D6 or D6+1."

Nowhere in that statement does it say the the results of the dice roll is their attack characteristic.

The rule further says: "Each time a model with this special rule comes to strike blows, roll the indicated dice, adding any modifiers shown, to determine the number of attacks that the model will make, then roll to hit as normal."

Again nowhere does it say that the rolled number becomes the attack characteristic and in fact the rule is describing how you would determine how many attacks you would get for a random attack characteristic.

theunwantedbeing
07-08-2010, 11:41
Nowhere in that statement does it say the the results of the dice roll is their attack characteristic.

Well that's what the statement is saying.

Also nowhere in the statement does it say that the random number ISNT your attacks characteristic, or that it is allowed to go above 10.

The rules are permissive, if something breaks a rule that everything would normally follow, it has to say that it is allowed to break the rule.

Like with random movement, thats nice and clear that its not a characteristic so isnt capped. It doesnt say its not capped as it doesnt need to by saying its not a characteristic.

JonnyTHM
07-08-2010, 13:02
Also nowhere in the statement does it say that the random number ISNT your attacks characteristic, or that it is allowed to go above 10.


It also doesn't say that it's not your toughness characteristic, strength characteristic or any other characteristic.

Your attack characteristic can't go over 10, arguing that the number of attacks you make in a round because of special rules is your attack characteristic is ridiculous.

Dark insanity's wording precludes it from being a precedent as it specifically refers to determining the attack characteristic at the beginning of each round of combat. Random attacks doesn't. In fact, random attacks doesn't need to ever look at your attack characteristic. Them putting the number there is unnecessary other than to not have a - or 0. The rule is Random attacks (4d6). Follow the rule and you never actually have to encounter the attack characteristic.

fubukii
07-08-2010, 15:29
the dark insanity ruling is from 8th edition there was no faq on the gift in 7th edition

GodlessM
07-08-2010, 18:08
I can't believe people are bringing this up. Especially when they are saying random movement is also capped at 10. This max. 10 characteristic rule was in 7th edition also but nobody played it this way or questioned it with regards to random stats. So why are people assuming it is any different now?

It really is rather simple. If the dice roll was the characteristic it wouldn't change every turn. It changes because the result of the dice is not the characteristic, just the attacks used. Think of the amount of cases in the game where a model must take a characteristic test and its also on the base stat because rules and weapons don't change the characteristic, only add to it in a certain situation.

Leth Shyish'phak
07-08-2010, 18:13
Well, '4d6' is a phrase, not a number. Maybe a better way of putting it would be to say that '4d6' isn't more than 10 (because it's not a number).

Well, by that logic it isn't less than 10 either, because its not a number. I think we can agree that it isn't equal to 10 all the time as well.

Arkh
07-08-2010, 18:14
As much as I think it is ridiculous... After reading the rules for everything related I can see the argument for the Chimera capping at 10 attacks.

I also tried going back to my 7th edition rulebook to find out the exact wording from 7th and couldn't manage to find it in the 7th edition book. Was there even BRB rules for random attacks in 7th?

Logic512
07-08-2010, 20:24
This thread gets my over-analysis seal of approval.

I will be shocked if a tournament organizer gets this question and caps it at ten but the argument must make people feel better. Maybe it's a source of catharsis or something.

Heimagoblin
07-08-2010, 21:07
I guess random attacks is an advanced rule and advanced rules take precedence over a basic rule. Just a thought?

Urgat
07-08-2010, 22:18
I can't believe people are bringing this up. Especially when they are saying random movement is also capped at 10. This max. 10 characteristic rule was in 7th edition also but nobody played it this way or questioned it with regards to random stats. So why are people assuming it is any different now?

Because people have just read the rules, and noticed that, and forgot (or never even noticed) it was in 7th? :p

shakedown47
07-08-2010, 22:30
I posted earlier in this thread, and I just thought I'd share my thoughts with why our group decided to cap the Chimera's potential attacks at 10, while models with the Random Movement rule are not capped at 10" per turn.

First off, I do honestly believe that no model's attacks characteristic is supposed to rise above 10, and I also believe that when a model has Random Attacks, you are effectively rolling for its Attack characteristic each turn.

We cap the Chimera because the spell is not especially difficult to get off under the new rules, and if the only thing the spell did was make you a S7 T7 model with no attacks whatsoever, it would still be worth it for most wizard models. The fact that it has a ton of attacks, plus thunderstomp, plus frenzy, led our group to cap its attacks at 10 in a bid to reign it in a bit.

The reason we don't cap Random Movement, whether it be on 2D6 or 3D6 or whatever, is that a normal model with a 10 movement can obviously move much farther than that if it charges or marches. Under that reasoning, we interpret Random Movement as determining the absolute maximum (and, of course, minimum) number of inches the model is able to move in the movement phase, regardless of what type of movement action it has declared.

This probably seems hypocritical to many of you, since both argument rely on the samelogic to arrive at different places, but that's the conclusion we came to. In many cases a model that has become a Mountain Chimera will dish at at least 11 Str 7 attacks (Random Attacks value plus Frenzy, capped at 10, plus at least 1 Thunderstomp attack,) and that's "enough" for just about anything.

DDogwood
07-08-2010, 22:45
It also doesn't say that it's not your toughness characteristic, strength characteristic or any other characteristic.

Your attack characteristic can't go over 10, arguing that the number of attacks you make in a round because of special rules is your attack characteristic is ridiculous.


This makes sense to me. After all, I would be really annoyed if someone argued that a Hail of Doom arrow capped at 10 shots, and that's basically the same argument.

It's pretty clear that Dark Insanity is an unusual case, and is not an example of the Random Attacks rule.

Caboose123
07-08-2010, 23:02
This doesn't make sense...


I posted earlier in this thread, and I just thought I'd share my thoughts with why our group decided to cap the Chimera's potential attacks at 10, while models with the Random Movement rule are not capped at 10" per turn.

I think the whole Random Movement rule explicitly claiming that the dice roll is not the movement characteristic would be enough.


First off, I do honestly believe that no model's attacks characteristic is supposed to rise above 10, and I also believe that when a model has Random Attacks, you are effectively rolling for its Attack characteristic each turn.

Really? It is your opinion, but I respectfully disagree. Someone said above that the Mountain Chimera has a 90.2% chance of getting 10 or more. It certainly doesn't sound right that they wanted a model that would almost always get 10 attacks; after all they could've given it like D6+8 attacks....


We cap the Chimera because the spell is not especially difficult to get off under the new rules, and if the only thing the spell did was make you a S7 T7 model with no attacks whatsoever, it would still be worth it for most wizard models. The fact that it has a ton of attacks, plus thunderstomp, plus frenzy, led our group to cap its attacks at 10 in a bid to reign it in a bit.

Sounds like you disagree with the spell rather than actually thinking about the ruling. Considering all the advantages a Great Fire Dragon has, the Mountain Chimera kinda needs to have more than 10 attacks for it to be viable, no?


The reason we don't cap Random Movement, whether it be on 2D6 or 3D6 or whatever, is that a normal model with a 10 movement can obviously move much farther than that if it charges or marches. Under that reasoning, we interpret Random Movement as determining the absolute maximum (and, of course, minimum) number of inches the model is able to move in the movement phase, regardless of what type of movement action it has declared.

Doesn't make sense; see above.


This probably seems hypocritical to many of you, since both argument rely on the samelogic to arrive at different places, but that's the conclusion we came to. In many cases a model that has become a Mountain Chimera will dish at at least 11 Str 7 attacks (Random Attacks value plus Frenzy, capped at 10, plus at least 1 Thunderstomp attack,) and that's "enough" for just about anything.

Hypocritical? No. Flawed? Yes. Food for thought: The Frenzy rule grants the Extra Attack rule, which adds 1 to the attack value of the model, so presumably this would also be capped at 10 [So the Mountain Chimera couldn't get 11 attacks + Stomp and would be capped at 10+ Stomp, and thus would only need to roll a nine for his full compliment of attacks!]

Personally I think the rules prevent the Mountain Chimera getting more than 10 attacks, but I don't think this is what was intended.

EDIT: 'Shots' are different from 'attacks'. I don't think Hail is capped at 10.

salamander
07-08-2010, 23:22
Blimey, I wasn't expecting to start a huge debate when I started this thread :wtf:


I assume you mean you wiped out the temple guard and ran down the slann...


He could've Thunderstomped it.

Yes I ran it down, and i forgot about thunderstomp :rolleyes:

shakedown47
08-08-2010, 00:10
Hypocritical? No. Flawed? Yes. Food for thought: The Frenzy rule grants the Extra Attack rule, which adds 1 to the attack value of the model, so presumably this would also be capped at 10 [So the Mountain Chimera couldn't get 11 attacks + Stomp and would be capped at 10+ Stomp, and thus would only need to roll a nine for his full compliment of attacks!]


Yeah that's what I said. The chimera most probably generates at least 10 attacks, including the Frenzy attack. He'll also get at least 1 Thunderstomp attack. That's 11 attacks, exactly as I said.

DDogwood
08-08-2010, 03:02
EDIT: 'Shots' are different from 'attacks'. I don't think Hail is capped at 10.

Neither do I - but the number of attacks a model makes isn't the same as it's Attacks characteristic, either, even though they are related.

Caboose123
08-08-2010, 03:04
Yeah that's what I said. The chimera most probably generates at least 10 attacks, including the Frenzy attack. He'll also get at least 1 Thunderstomp attack. That's 11 attacks, exactly as I said.

Sorry, my mistake; misread it. :o

Arkh
08-08-2010, 16:38
I guess random attacks is an advanced rule and advanced rules take precedence over a basic rule. Just a thought?

For as obvious as this statement is.. it actually has some merit.

If special rules didn't override standard rules they wouldn't be so special now would they. Every special rule contradicts standard rules.

e.g.

player 1: "poison auto-wounds on a 6."
player 2: "But the rulebook explicitly states that you have to roll to wound after the hit roll."
player 1: "yes.... but, poison overrides that as a special rule"

random attacks
player 1: "random attacks states that you roll your number of attacks and then roll that many dice."
player 2: "But the rulebook explicitly states that you can't have more than 10 attacks."
player 1: "yes.... but random attacks overrides that as a special rule."

Normal Rule < Special Rule < Army Book Rule

GodlessM
08-08-2010, 19:29
I believe there is a passage in the book even that says advanced rules take precedence though, so that would cover it. Good point as usual Heima.

zerorocky
08-08-2010, 19:56
Page 31 of the BRB.

"Note that bonuses and penalties from Hex, Augment and other spells are cumulative, but normally cannot take any characteristics above 10 or below 1."

The key word is "normally", which suggests that there are exceptions to capping your attacks at 10.

Zestyfork
09-08-2010, 09:23
I emailed GW on the matter, this was the responce...

Page 3 of the Warhammer Rulebook, under the heading 'Characteristics of Models' states;
'All characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10 - they cannot go below 0 or rise above 10.'

Do note that this means that characteristics are restricted to this minimum and maximum - it does not mean in a turn there's not a way a model can acquire more then say 10 attacks (mostly due to various rules that grant extra attacks, of course)
So in this instance, the Chimera's attacks characteristic is 4D6 - this doesn't exceed the maximum of 10 and is as a result, fine.
However, you roll the dice in a turn and score 16 in total. Technically the Chimera doesn't have an Attacks characteristic of 16 (which is not allowed), he just has 16 attacks this turn which is technically fine.

As this is such an easily interpretable rule it should be noted that the same page states under the heading 'The Spirit of the Game';
...What's more, Warhammer Calls on a lot from you, the player. You job isn't just to follow the rules it's also to add your own ideas and sense of fun to the game.'

Thanks again for writing in, feel free to contact us again if you have any further questions.

twistinthunder
09-08-2010, 10:02
so your e-mail included an order for an answer with a side of attitude... :D

chilledenuff
09-08-2010, 16:57
...What's more, Warhammer Calls on a lot from you, the player. You job isn't just to follow the rules it's also to add your own ideas and sense of fun to the game.'


Job?!?! GW aren't paying me! What's the hourly rate? Do we get to claim back pay? Are discussions on forums deductable? AAGH THe tax man *runs off to hide*

Zoolander
09-08-2010, 17:27
I emailed GW on the matter, this was the responce...

Page 3 of the Warhammer Rulebook, under the heading 'Characteristics of Models' states;
'All characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10 - they cannot go below 0 or rise above 10.'

Do note that this means that characteristics are restricted to this minimum and maximum - it does not mean in a turn there's not a way a model can acquire more then say 10 attacks (mostly due to various rules that grant extra attacks, of course)
So in this instance, the Chimera's attacks characteristic is 4D6 - this doesn't exceed the maximum of 10 and is as a result, fine.
However, you roll the dice in a turn and score 16 in total. Technically the Chimera doesn't have an Attacks characteristic of 16 (which is not allowed), he just has 16 attacks this turn which is technically fine.

As this is such an easily interpretable rule it should be noted that the same page states under the heading 'The Spirit of the Game';
...What's more, Warhammer Calls on a lot from you, the player. You job isn't just to follow the rules it's also to add your own ideas and sense of fun to the game.'

Thanks again for writing in, feel free to contact us again if you have any further questions.

I agree with this 100%. But then... WTF is up with Dark Insanity?! Why is that any different?

antihelten
09-08-2010, 17:41
I agree with this 100%. But then... WTF is up with Dark Insanity?! Why is that any different?

because dark insanity doesn't have the random attacks special rule I'd guess

Minsc
09-08-2010, 23:19
all stats cap at 10 so the chimera can never exceed 10 attacks sadly which makes it rather worthless
page 3 first paragraph

So that means the HPA is capped at 10 attacks as well then? Good.

manista
09-08-2010, 23:38
i would say it could go over 10

manista
09-08-2010, 23:39
the corpse card has 2d6 attacks does it just ignore 11 and 12? that dosent make any sence at all

Nubl0
09-08-2010, 23:56
Did nobody read the post by the guy that got an email from GW saying that it could go over 10? Seriously go read a few posts back. This should be over now. Only dark insanity caps at 10 attacks and thats probabley more to do with the fact it's an upgrade for the bloodthirster.

havokas
10-08-2010, 00:03
i emailed gw on the matter, this was the responce...

Page 3 of the warhammer rulebook, under the heading 'characteristics of models' states;
'all characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10 - they cannot go below 0 or rise above 10.'

do note that this means that characteristics are restricted to this minimum and maximum - it does not mean in a turn there's not a way a model can acquire more then say 10 attacks (mostly due to various rules that grant extra attacks, of course)
so in this instance, the chimera's attacks characteristic is 4d6 - this doesn't exceed the maximum of 10 and is as a result, fine.
However, you roll the dice in a turn and score 16 in total. Technically the chimera doesn't have an attacks characteristic of 16 (which is not allowed), he just has 16 attacks this turn which is technically fine.

As this is such an easily interpretable rule it should be noted that the same page states under the heading 'the spirit of the game';
...what's more, warhammer calls on a lot from you, the player. You job isn't just to follow the rules it's also to add your own ideas and sense of fun to the game.'

thanks again for writing in, feel free to contact us again if you have any further questions.

read it slowly before posting again

JonnyTHM
10-08-2010, 01:02
So that means the HPA is capped at 10 attacks as well then? Good.

What part of 'only the characteristic is capped at 10' are you applying here?

For any question of 'can it go over 10 attacks', first ask yourself "Does this rule change the attack characteristic of the model?"

The only time you'll say yes is dark insanity, because it's the only rule that states that you actually change the attack characteristic to that number.

Minsc
10-08-2010, 02:44
What part of 'only the characteristic is capped at 10' are you applying here?

No part at all, since I find this entire debate about "max 10 attacks" to be nothing but plain stupid, and I guess you didn't detect the sarcasm in my post.
(I was poking at the Skavenplayers precious HPA, since I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in this topic.)
*points at zestyforks post*

JonnyTHM
10-08-2010, 03:03
My apologies, my sarcasm detector seems to be on the fritz anyways.

SamVimes
10-08-2010, 03:06
To be fair, his sarcasm was really subtly written, and this being the intrawebz, confusion is bound to happen! ;)

itcamefromthedeep
10-08-2010, 04:02
Dark Insanity here:

"The Daemon replaces its normal Attacks characteristic with 2D6+2. Roll at the start of each combat."

That language is markedly different from the Random Attacks rule. I can see how Dark Insanity could run into the cap while Random Attacks dodges it.

My sportsmanship senses tell me that Random Attacks can break the cap.

---

The Mountain Chimera would likely be my go-to monster rather than the Dragon. I need that spell to justify itself on the turn it is cast, and those 4D6 Attacks seem to me to be the way to do it. The big mitigating factor is the complete lack of Scaly Skin on the Chimera, which may very well mean I lose my wizard in the deal.

My favorite candidate for the spell is a Lord of Change. It boosts the power of the critter without meaning certain doom for the caster if he should still be in combat when it is dispelled. Beasts also has another 2 character-booster spells should that one fail. Since a Lord of Change is a fighty monster it calls out for a lore that is useful in close combat. I think that a Lord of Change really does need to be in close combat to justify its presence. Mountain Chimera form would let it outstrip the killing power of even a Bloodthirster.

Casting it on an Ethereal Vampire Lord would be kinda funny, though. Transformation costs you your equipment, but "innate" special rules seem to get the thumbs up. Ooooh, Red Fury...

Don't forget the Poisoned Attacks, by the way.

Drongol
10-08-2010, 15:27
Just got an email back from GW this morning. I know, it's a crapshoot, but it should help.



Justin!

The number rolled on random movement is not capped at 10. nor is it capped for random attacks at 10. If there is a random number to be rolled, whatever the dice show is the number used with no ceiling.

I hope this is helpful my friend!

Thanks!

John Hollingsworth

Customer Service Specialist

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!

Games Workshop

Customer Service

CONTACT INFO REDACTED

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: REDACTED
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 9:34 PM
To: US Customer Service
Subject: WHFB Rules Question: Random Attacks/Movement

Random Attacks: Are these capped at 10, regardless of the number of dice rolled? If so, this is a pretty big issue for people who transform into a Mountain Chimera.

If Random Attacks is capped at 10, what about Random Movement? Are Squig Hoppers unable to move more than 10" during their normal movement?