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TheDireAvenger
05-08-2010, 21:34
Imagine it, CSM have been around for 11,000 years and since then there have been 13 Black Crusades and each one they took massive losses. The Gothic War where Abaddon was defeated by the Imperial Navy saw numerous Chaos spaceships blown up.

Where can they actually replace their manpower? I read some CSM fanboys claiming there are Hive Worlds and Forge Worlds in the Eye of Terror but really? Is this true?

According to the fluff there are no major human settlements in there and that was actually the reason why the CSMs fled there to begin with. So they have limited equipment limited manpower and can only get more from raiding the Imperium.

I doubt they can recruit more Space Marines by abducting people since you need the gene-seed and only the best of the best can be recruited in the first place. Also considering how CSM fight each other and fight Daemons, fight the Chaos Eldar in there and just a lot of killing in general should Chaos be slowly dying out? Khorne and Nurgle fight against Slaanesh and Tzeetch all the time I'm sure the CSM in there also take sides = lots of dead CSMs.

TheOmnissiah
05-08-2010, 21:42
Im sure somehow the chaos gods can somehow spawn or mutate strong acolytes to become a CSM of some description and thus the legions train the thing?
I imagine that would be a crappy but plausible explanation.

Scribe of Khorne
05-08-2010, 21:42
There are planets that can supply wargear. There are planets filled with fodder type manpower (mutants, beastmen, etc).

Some recruiting also does take place, and if you have read Soul Hunter they discuss how they clone, or grow recruits. So that solves that.

As for the original size of the legions, they where vast, a recent number I saw coming out of The First Heretic discussions was 100,000.

Now, apply that to a 'fluff level' CSM, not a table top game level, and 100,000 marines is going to take you pretty far.

Paraelix
05-08-2010, 21:42
Fabius Bile = New recruits.

Have you read Soul Hunter? Those Night Lords have only been in the EoT for what seems like a couple of hundred years, but when they re-emerge it has been thousands. Time doesn't function the same in there and, as such, there are probably some Marines from immediately post-Terra yet to emerge from the Eye...

EDIT- Also, they harvest Geneseed from themselves and from defeated Space Marines. ie Honsou from Iron Warrior was "made" using Imperial Fist Genestock and thus was considered a bas***d child marine.

TheOverlord
05-08-2010, 21:42
There seems to be plenty of novels out there espousing the existence of daemonic human/xeno settled worlds within the Eye that seem to provide more than enough bodies for the Chaos Marines to use.

This entire post seems like flame-bait to me...

TheShadowCow
05-08-2010, 21:44
They can create more of their own kind through various means. They steal Geneseed and go through the same processes (well, sort of) as loyalist Space Marines, they actively "recruit" from loyalist Chapters, they can barter with Fabius Bile for new warriors etc etc. Chaos can always replenish its losses.

Caelnaethon
05-08-2010, 21:46
They have several sources for new recruits. Renegade chapters fall to Chaos. Marines of loyal chapters defect from time to time. Chaos Apothecaries steal the gene-seed from dead loyalist marines and implant it into promising cultists. Fabius Bile clones marines and gene-seed, though with unpredictable results.

Besides which, not every Chaos Marine strictly has to be an Astartes. Any human can be the equal of a Space Marine with sufficient gifts from the Chaos Gods.

I'm not sure if there's any definitive evidence of Chaos forge worlds, but there is most definitely a Dark Mechanicus with extensive manufacturing capability.

The Oni One
05-08-2010, 21:58
Penal worlds are also pritty good for recruiting and It'd be logical for CSM to raid forge worlds during the black crusades.

Lord Malorne
05-08-2010, 22:07
You also have to consider the time dilation of the Eye of Terror, no heretic actually is 10k years old, they would be far, far, far less.

TheDireAvenger
05-08-2010, 22:08
Right but with ALL these sources included they still must be outnumbered by loyalists by a magnitude of at least 5 - 1.

The Loyalist have much much more reliable sources of recruitment and quality control. CSM just have Fabius Bile and traitors from time to time.

Lord Malorne
05-08-2010, 22:10
They are also concentrated in various places while loyalists are not, the galaxy is a big place and chaos marines are opportunists.

Paraelix
05-08-2010, 22:15
And there are always Daemons for backup :D

Lord Malorne
05-08-2010, 22:17
Fodder you mean ;)

The Oni One
05-08-2010, 22:19
and not every loyalist chapter is going to be fighting chaos :P there's orks, elder, necrons etc... to deal with :D

Garven Dreis
05-08-2010, 22:39
The Iron Warriors actively 'aquire' Gene Seed for the creation of new legionnaires

Arselskjut
05-08-2010, 22:45
Isn't it written in csm-codex that lobotomizers from World Eaters deflected to the Black Legion? So if the lobotimizers from WE exist, they probably work hard on new recruit of the chapter and so on. =) As discussed earlier, WE arn't frenzied all of the time, just in battle. =)

Scribe of Khorne
05-08-2010, 22:59
Isn't it written in csm-codex that lobotomizers from World Eaters deflected to the Black Legion? So if the lobotimizers from WE exist, they probably work hard on new recruit of the chapter and so on. =) As discussed earlier, WE arn't frenzied all of the time, just in battle. =)

Not all of them went over. Its just a handy way of explaining why Codex: Black Legion gets to use all the troops types...:shifty:

Death Company
05-08-2010, 23:06
This entire post seems like flame-bait to me...

If you check his posting history you'll start to see why you're getting that feeling..

AndrewGPaul
05-08-2010, 23:46
Where can they actually replace their manpower? I read some CSM fanboys claiming there are Hive Worlds and Forge Worlds in the Eye of Terror but really? Is this true?

Yes. Go and read the Battlefleet Gothci rulebook. The renegade forge worlds may not be in the Eye, but they exist.


According to the fluff there are no major human settlements in there

What gave you that idea?

Hunger
05-08-2010, 23:49
Lets also not forget that the tabletop battles we play that see thirty Space Marines plus all their support vehicles wiped out twice per week are not representative of how things really occur in the 40K universe.

In 40K reality, major engagements are fought and won by a handful of Marines. Their method of warfare does not allow for attrition - a single squad of Astartes drops into a warzone and accomplishes a mission that tips the tide of the war, under a hail of bullets and against overwhelming odds, and is extracted after suffering little or no casualities.

If the Chapters or Legions lost their brothers at the rate of the average 40K game there would be none of them left in the galaxy after a month. Thats why the CSM Legions do not need to recruit at a rapid rate, and why Chapters comprise 1000 fighting bodies but only take on recruits when they visit their homeworlds once in a blue moon.

Wyrmwood
06-08-2010, 01:40
For example, the Forge World of Ghalmek in the Maelstrom. Fabius Bile's cloning, renegade Astartes, time-flow being much faster in some cases, slaves, the Traitor Legion worlds - Abaddon has been described as carving out an 'Empire' within the Eye, you can't really have an Empire with no/one empty world/s. The Kai system was pulled into the Eye and before it was destroyed completely, provided munitions etc - it stands to reason that other systems were/have been pulled in within the last 10,000 years; not to mention, it's only logical that the Traitor Legions and the other forces of Chaos would have worlds to supply them within the Eye, and on the outskirts of it.

Flame bait indeed!

Lothlanathorian
06-08-2010, 02:09
I mean no disrespect to the OP, but you are either the most persistent troll I've ever seen or you've read little to no background set in the 40K universe pretty much ever.

Gobbo Trouble
06-08-2010, 10:59
there was a book i read can't remember the exact name, but it was set on a planet where chaos marines recruit from, till the imperium went there and started a war on the populace.

FlashGordon
06-08-2010, 11:00
Look for the upcoming Blood Gorgons book. (the third bastion wars novel, i recommend the first two)

abasio
06-08-2010, 13:59
In most books the main characters are remnants from the heresy but not all of them are going to be. There are chapters that have fallen to chaos more recently, there might still be recruiting and then there is all the stuff from Mr. Bile.

Also about time flowing differently in the eye, it can flow differently both ways right? So while some may be a lot less than 10k old, some may be much more.

In one of the Grey Knights novels (2nd I think) a planet had been in the warp for 100 years but for them on the planet 1000 years had passed.

ashc
06-08-2010, 15:08
Is now the time to mention giant daemon-wombs?

Love it.

xeno106
06-08-2010, 17:54
tk;dr
In warp time works different, you can die and life at the same time or for that case in different times well you know what I mean :shifty:

Son of Sanguinius
06-08-2010, 18:14
Yeah, just a personal recommendation, DireAvenger. If you have sources for this information, you should point out what they are. The ideas you've been claiming as fact are completely out of the blue most of the time. For example, where did you get the 5 to 1 ratio?

Col. Dash
07-08-2010, 02:28
With active recruiting they get a bunch. Remember the IW assault on Hydra Cordatus(sp?)? They captured for Abaddon an entire mechanicum stockpile of geneseed from all the chapters of the Imperium. I'd say Abaddon has some real bargaining power from this.

The Yellow Sign
07-08-2010, 03:55
I mean no disrespect to the OP, but you are either the most persistent troll I've ever seen or you've read little to no background set in the 40K universe pretty much ever.

Who could blame you for calling it like it is.

He manages to always leave an inflammatory line in every post he makes. Either he is truly uninformed in almost all aspects of Warhammer 40Ks fluff, or he really enjoys watching people rage at / correct him. :D

MagosHereticus
07-08-2010, 04:57
also space marine prisoners do get brainwashed and corrupted see IA 6 i believe

Sephiroth
07-08-2010, 08:48
Let's give the OP the benefit of the doubt as simply being eager and uninformed, guys?

Anyway TheDireAvenger, the Chaos Marines have retained some form of their organizational structure, but their command is very decentralized. They are most certainly producing their own arms, armour and gene-seed, in my mind.

Raxmei
07-08-2010, 09:54
Right but with ALL these sources included they still must be outnumbered by loyalists by a magnitude of at least 5 - 1.

The Loyalist have much much more reliable sources of recruitment and quality control. CSM just have Fabius Bile and traitors from time to time.They are. The renegades intially fled into the Eye because they were too weak to hold the worlds they had taken from the Imperium and they are still there because they never got strong enough to overcome the fraction of the Imperium's strength devoted to guarding against them. Even after Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade there are bigger problems facing the Imperium.

Mechdra
07-08-2010, 12:18
From what I know, CSM recruit new marines from abandoned worlds like what a Night Lord warband did. Since most CSM now in forms of warband, recruitment would be a lot faster compare to those of the loyalist.

However, some still retain traditional ways of recruitment like what Ahriman is doing where he pick up talented psykers to join his wat band.

Askari
07-08-2010, 14:43
You also have to consider the time dilation of the Eye of Terror, no heretic actually is 10k years old, they would be far, far, far less.

I didn't realise the Warp dilated time in one way only ;)

If the time dilation happens, it means it happens in both ways, some Chaos Marines are only 10 years old, some a million.

As for Chaos Forge World, wasn't the Planet Killer built on one of these worlds?

Lord Malorne
07-08-2010, 14:47
I know it does not go only one way, I simply cannot accept that they can be upwards of 10k years old relative.

Wyrmwood
07-08-2010, 15:11
As for Chaos Forge World, wasn't the Planet Killer built on one of these worlds?

Indeed, you are correct. I don't have my BFG book handy, but it's in there.


I know it does not go only one way, I simply cannot accept that they can be upwards of 10k years old relative.

I agree, a Space Marine would most likely be dead even after a few hundred years (there are notable exceptions); as for a few thousand, well...

Lord Dante
07-08-2010, 15:16
Isnt Dante for example over 1000 years old?

Wyrmwood
07-08-2010, 15:30
Isnt Dante for example over 1000 years old?

That's correct. An exception to the rule, thereby helping to prove it's validity as the norm - besides, the Eye of Terror/Maelstrom is/are arguably the most hostile place/s in the known universe.

Lupe
07-08-2010, 20:57
That's correct. An exception to the rule, thereby helping to prove it's validity as the norm - besides, the Eye of Terror/Maelstrom is/are arguably the most hostile place/s in the known universe.

Not necessarily. A Chaos warband can just lurk for a few thousand years on their base, building up strength, terrorizing the locals - who were unfortunately not gifted with superhuman abilities - and generally earning the favor of the Gods, through rape, murder, scheming or just playing in the dumpster a bit too much.

A loyalist Chapter might spend a decade moving from one corner of the galaxy to another, fighting off the Tau and the Tyranids on the Eastern Fringes, then repelling the Orks in the distant south, and then returning their recruiting worlds near the Gates of Varl to find them raided by Dark Eldar that need an ass whooping. And just when you'd think they can slow down and rebuild, they're called back to arms because Abaddon decides to be a rude neighbor and tries blow the Cadia into the next segmentum.

abasio
08-08-2010, 14:21
Indeed, you are correct. I don't have my BFG book handy, but it's in there.



I agree, a Space Marine would most likely be dead even after a few hundred years (there are notable exceptions); as for a few thousand, well...

I think this would be a general rule but there would be some, chosen of the chaos gods that could survive for tens of thousands of years due to their talents and that they have the favour of the gods. Main characters are most likely going to be picked from this small group as people seem to prefer reading about super uber chaos champion around since the beginning of everything than Jon who just got swayed and hasn't killed anyone yet.

Dakkagor
08-08-2010, 14:44
Indeed, you are correct. I don't have my BFG book handy, but it's in there.


The planet killer was built in the eye. From what I've heard, Xana (the forgeworld in question) isn't in the eye, but on the edge and fell to chaos pretty quickly. Abaddon then abducted the forgeworlds techpriests and made them build the planet killer in the Eye of Terror, the only place where the physical laws of the universe could be bent or broken enough to construct it.

barrangas
08-08-2010, 14:52
I'm sure the Chaos Gods would go out of their way to make sure that they still have CSM around, being some of their more effective followers, even without all the options presented by all the posters here. Even to the point of making new bodies and stuffing souls back inside if necessary.

Zweischneid
08-08-2010, 15:02
Also about time flowing differently in the eye, it can flow differently both ways right? So while some may be a lot less than 10k old, some may be much more.

Also about time flowing differently in the eye, it need not flow linear as far as I am aware. If I remember it correctly, stuff can go backwards and forwards in time in the eye, so a Chaos Space Marine who perhaps was killed in a battle only 5000 years after the Heresy, might still have fought in battles 10.000+ years after the Heresy before his death.

massey
08-08-2010, 16:50
In the ork codex, there's a pretty neat story about a warboss who leads his army directly into the Eye of Terror, because he's looking for a really good fight. They attack a demon world of Khorne, and endless monsters and creatures crawl out of the ground for them to fight. The warboss is the last to die (though it's indicated that he grabs a Bloodthirster by the nuts with his power klaw before he goes).

The next morning, they all wake up, suddenly alive again. And the whole thing starts over. It's like Groundhog Day, where they relive the same day over and over and over again, killing and being killed, fighting demons of Khorne for eternity. The orks are very happy.

It's not just the flow of time that is different in the Warp. The laws of causality do not always apply. You can kill a man today and he can kill you tomorrow. It's okay though, because you'll have another chance to kill him next week. It's all some crazy Freddy Krueger dream. [Wilford Brimley]You'll never grow old, you'll never die, and you'll always eat oatmeal.[/Wilford Brimley] Chaos Marines can live forever in the Eye of Terror, because they're effectively in Hell. You don't get old in Hell, it's just an eternity of torment. Same thing with the Eye of Terror.

Son of Sanguinius
08-08-2010, 16:58
In the ork codex, there's a pretty neat story about a warboss who leads his army directly into the Eye of Terror, because he's looking for a really good fight. They attack a demon world of Khorne, and endless monsters and creatures crawl out of the ground for them to fight. The warboss is the last to die (though it's indicated that he grabs a Bloodthirster by the nuts with his power klaw before he goes).

The next morning, they all wake up, suddenly alive again. And the whole thing starts over. It's like Groundhog Day, where they relive the same day over and over and over again, killing and being killed, fighting demons of Khorne for eternity. The orks are very happy.

That was my favorite story in the Ork Codex. Very much preferable to Wazzadakka dropping a titan.


It's not just the flow of time that is different in the Warp. The laws of causality do not always apply. You can kill a man today and he can kill you tomorrow. It's okay though, because you'll have another chance to kill him next week. It's all some crazy Freddy Krueger dream. [Wilford Brimley]You'll never grow old, you'll never die, and you'll always eat oatmeal.[/Wilford Brimley] Chaos Marines can live forever in the Eye of Terror, because they're effectively in Hell. You don't get old in Hell, it's just an eternity of torment. Same thing with the Eye of Terror.

I think it goes too far to claim that causality doesn't apply because the Orks are reformed and reincarnated. In truth, I don't know of anything in the depictions of the warp that ultimately rule out an adherence to Newton's laws, as long as you're willing to believe in souls and their connection to an alternate dimension.

Point for the Wilford Brimley reference. That's a warseer first for me. :D

massey
08-08-2010, 17:08
Thanks. :)

I'm not saying that causality never applies. Certainly, it applies to boring things (usually). Theoretically, some peasant living on a planet in the Eye can still find his pants when he wakes up in the morning. He pushes a rock and it moves the direction he pushes it (usually). But when it comes to combat? To violence and carnage and all the things the Chaos gods love? It exists until somebody important wants it not to.

The most important rule in the Eye of Terror is that there are no rules.

Son of Sanguinius
08-08-2010, 17:11
You may be onto something in terms of the reincarnation though. Perhaps the Gods resurrect their best warriors.

Askari
08-08-2010, 19:18
Perhaps the Gods resurrect their best warriors.

No perhaps about it, they do.

Ref; Kharn the Betrayer, Lucius the Eternal.

ashc
08-08-2010, 19:49
No perhaps about it, they do.

Ref; Kharn the Betrayer, Lucius the Eternal.

Yep, gods love bringing back their favourites.

Triszin The Wrath God
08-08-2010, 19:50
slaanesh.....

need i say more?

Son of Sanguinius
08-08-2010, 19:56
No perhaps about it, they do.

Ref; Kharn the Betrayer, Lucius the Eternal.


Yep, gods love bringing back their favourites.

Those are examples of the finest Chaos Space Marines in existence. I meant more along the lines of your average squads of CSM, and by best warriors, I meant Chaos Space Marines as a group. The gods don't have better warriors on the mortal plane than the traitor Astartes.

ashc
08-08-2010, 21:17
when a whim takes them I imagine they do, you know, just for the giggles. Fickle gods and all!

Fulgrim's Gimp
08-08-2010, 21:17
There was in the original RoC books the idea of Chaos Legionaires (admitedly more fantasy than 40K idea) that some warriors were so beholden to the gods that they would fight and die then be resurrected to do it all again. The upside was no eternal death for them, the downside was no ascension to daemonhood and escape from the cycle of war. I always thought that would have been a good idea translated to 40k for the continuing existence of Chaos Legions.

massey
08-08-2010, 22:44
I also think your more non-aligned CSM could go ahead and recruit just like a regular SM chapter. In fact, they could even use the same recruiting worlds if they were slick about it. You just pull your ship into orbit, send down a landing craft, and the villagers send out their best and brightest to meet "the sky warriors". You send out some non-mutated marines to pick over the ones you want, and you bug out. Two weeks later the space marines show up, and the village elders are like "Umm, weren't you just here?"

Merus
08-08-2010, 23:34
I also think your more non-aligned CSM could go ahead and recruit just like a regular SM chapter. In fact, they could even use the same recruiting worlds if they were slick about it. You just pull your ship into orbit, send down a landing craft, and the villagers send out their best and brightest to meet "the sky warriors". You send out some non-mutated marines to pick over the ones you want, and you bug out. Two weeks later the space marines show up, and the village elders are like "Umm, weren't you just here?"

I think we're going to see an example of this in Blood Gorgons, A Bastion Wars Novel.

The traitors return to protect one of their recruitment worlds from xenos.

avatarofportent
08-08-2010, 23:39
No CSM is really 10000 years old. If you read Soul Hunter, you find out its been 100 years since the Heresy to them.

Merus
08-08-2010, 23:46
No CSM is really 10000 years old. If you read Soul Hunter, you find out its been 100 years since the Heresy to them.

It's been 10,000 years to the Imperium and everyone else though. The warp distorts time; so while it felt like a 100 years, it's been much longer.

massey
09-08-2010, 01:38
No CSM is really 10000 years old. If you read Soul Hunter, you find out its been 100 years since the Heresy to them.

Maybe to those specific guys, sure. But there's a short story in one of the 2nd edition books that talks about a CSM who is struggling to deal with 10,000 years of memories. He enters a self-induced hypnotic trance, and chooses which memories to keep and which to forget. A particular kill, a victory, keep. Hours of artillery barrage, forget. It was fairly specific, he is 10,000 years old.

Hellebore
09-08-2010, 01:49
Whilst many people are quick to point out that many CSM are less than 10,000 years old due to warp dilation, they generally forget the fact that there should be just as many OLDER than 10,000 years (abasio mentioned it before). Theoretically there could be a marine who is infinity ... :p

There must be some causality when involving realspace though. I generally see it as the warp is timeless but must obey time when interacting with realspace where time actually exists.

Thus Slannesh was objectively born in the 31st millennium even if he exists in some form always.

Otherwise Slannesh could easily eat half the eldar race before he existed and potential chaos gods that exist a billion years from now could be appearing on planets to kill everyone.

Despite the concept of timelessness the warp does a very good job of obeying causality when it involves realspace events.

Hellebore

Iracundus
09-08-2010, 01:52
Maybe to those specific guys, sure. But there's a short story in one of the 2nd edition books that talks about a CSM who is struggling to deal with 10,000 years of memories. He enters a self-induced hypnotic trance, and chooses which memories to keep and which to forget. A particular kill, a victory, keep. Hours of artillery barrage, forget. It was fairly specific, he is 10,000 years old.

I know that story, and it was also preceded by a story again of the same Marine in a 2nd edition Epic battle report. However there is a possibility these stories have since been retconned since that main character is a heavily mutated Thousand Sons marine fused to his bolter (this was before the introduction into the fluff of the Rubric).

Now that the Rubric is in place in the background, there may no longer be room for that particular character and story.

The experiences of other CSM falls more in line with those of Soul Hunter where their subjective experienced time is less than 10,000 years. In that sense they are somewhat like Rip van Winkle when they exit the Eye, seeing how the Imperium has changed so much in comparison to what they remembered.


Sidenote: I also don't know why this thread is still ongoing since the OP has gotten himself banned (trolling perhaps?).

abasio
09-08-2010, 03:36
Maybe to those specific guys, sure. But there's a short story in one of the 2nd edition books that talks about a CSM who is struggling to deal with 10,000 years of memories. He enters a self-induced hypnotic trance, and chooses which memories to keep and which to forget. A particular kill, a victory, keep. Hours of artillery barrage, forget. It was fairly specific, he is 10,000 years old.

Sounds a lot like Daneel R. Olivaw :D