PDA

View Full Version : Lizardmen got better??



Tau-Lover
06-08-2010, 09:18
I read some of the posts in the tread about the army tiers. And some ppl says Lizardmen is in the top. What has improved since they get to be in the top tier?

Ultimate Life Form
06-08-2010, 11:15
Well, some things got better, others got worse. Personally I think they're still where they've been all along.

Don't think too much into random posts on the internet; I've already seen every army in every possible tier (yes, that includes O&G in the top tier).

mdauben
06-08-2010, 15:35
What has improved since they get to be in the top tier?
I think most people considered LM one of the top 3-4 armies in 7th ed, so its not exactly a big change. Some things in the list got toned down a bit, others got a bit of a buff. I think, overall, their ranking didn't change much.

TheKingInYellow
06-08-2010, 15:48
A few things come to mind:

BSB + Cold-Blooded means you are pretty much immune to psychology.

Cupped Hands may be the best item in the game now.

Saurus + Spears = 3 ranks of serious hurt.

Not like LM were bad before, but single/dual Slann lists just got even nastier!

Dead Man Walking
06-08-2010, 17:18
Salamanders got upgraded, so didn't camelons. Slaan with Lore of Life is supposed to be rocking too. Slaan was great with magic before but now the spells have increased in power, meaning the slaan became more powerful.

Reinnon
06-08-2010, 17:28
Slanns: Extra dice power got better in 8th as slanns now basically have double the power dice then anyone else. Cupped Hands got better as now the slanns can transfer miscasts and **** over enemy wizards at the same time (not nice as vampire counts I can tell you), their 'ignore 6's' power became better as more and more people are trying to go for the uber spells and the LM benefit immensely from the lores within the book.

Not to mention they are high Ld generals with a BSB stamped on their foreheads, both of which have gotten better, and lets not mention they can now fly....

Stegadons: Evil! Lore of Life boosts them to near godlike level and thunderstomp just makes a mess of anything when its given to a chariot. Stegadons are now among the best character killers in the game.

Sallies: No partials, this one is easy.

Thats just off the top of my head, its not all good news though, saurus took a slight hit in that they are low I so are rarely striking first and they lose their 2 attacks in the second row with spears. But generally, LM benefitted alot from 8th ed.

Heimagoblin
06-08-2010, 17:37
Lizardmen are an infantry based army and infantry got a huge buff.
Slann with lore of life are pretty much the best wizard in the game (behind teclis except he is much much easier to kill), stubborn off generals leadship means 1700 points+ of my army at 2250 is stubborn ld 10, cold blooded and in bsb range aswell as either being the target of life buff spells or being t6 3/4+ save. Also, salamanders can now march and shoot with no partials. In addition, scar veterans are now a great option with no slots, coming in at 96 points for 4 attacks at ws 5 str 7 with a 4+ save, 2 wounds and toughness 5.

Kudzu
06-08-2010, 21:11
A few things come to mind:

BSB + Cold-Blooded means you are pretty much immune to psychology.
Correct.


Cupped Hands may be the best item in the game now.
It's up there, but still not the best. Power scroll, Ring of Hotek, Book of Hoeth still beat it out, and that's just off the top of my head. However, it is almost mandatory to take just because the nasty miscast table effects the slann in a temple guard more than other wizards' set-ups, the passing off portion is just a really nice bonus.


Saurus + Spears = 3 ranks of serious hurt.
Exact same damage output in 7th, but requires more ranks and the attacks can be lost faster, this is a nerf.


Not like LM were bad before, but single/dual Slann lists just got even nastier!
No point in double slann, far too expensive after you've tooled them both out. Overall, I say we got a slight boost, but didn't move around in the rankings too much, still a top 3-5 army.

Gork or Possibly Mork
06-08-2010, 21:44
Exact same damage output in 7th, but requires more ranks and the attacks can be lost faster, this is a nerf.

Only real reason it could be considered a nerf is because of infantry getting support attacks. Spears on Saurus is still quite nasty. If Im taking 24ish + saurus theres not much reason not to take them other than saving points.

You start buffing them with a Slann and they are absolutely brutal.

Alltaken
06-08-2010, 22:45
Slanns: Extra dice power got better in 8th as slanns now basically have double the power dice then anyone else. Cupped Hands got better as now the slanns can transfer miscasts and **** over enemy wizards at the same time (not nice as vampire counts I can tell you), their 'ignore 6's' power became better as more and more people are trying to go for the uber spells and the LM benefit immensely from the lores within the book.
Cupped hands is, was, and will be great. But Nš1 item... nah. I mean standard Slann is Lore of Life which pretty much cares not about miscasts, the vines thing gives protection from a miscast at 2+ which happens to be resolved before the miscast effect.


Stegadons: Evil! Lore of Life boosts them to near godlike level and thunderstomp just makes a mess of anything when its given to a chariot. Stegadons are now among the best character killers in the game.
True, but if you don't get to cast or have other priorities they're not as big as back then, denying ranks was huge. Now at least we have a static way to reduce hits. BUT our crew are cheap res on the other hand. Can't call them wonderfull, but can't disscard either


Lizardmen are an infantry based army and infantry got a huge buff.
Other infantry got buffed, saurus didn't really. You need 3 ranks to have those attacks 24 attacks because you deny one man and it's 1 attack less, when in 7th you didn't need that. Besides other infantry striking back allways isn't nice, deffinetly. Saurus pretty much remained the same. Fighting in I order is the same for us, we never go first. Having +1 CR is nearly the same as striking first for 1 turn. I play against VC a lot, and it's really embarazing to go after... SKELETONS!!!! com'n. 8th is the era of other units. Buffed Saurus however are pure gold.



No point in double slann, far too expensive after you've tooled them both out. Overall, I say we got a slight boost, but didn't move around in the rankings too much, still a top 3-5 army.
Actually I find it to be a very sexy combo. Slann bunkered in TG with Lore of Life, rumination, mystery, and cupped hands. Other one, ethereal, rumination and mystery with Lore of Death, real killer. Yes it's thinking at a 3k level really, but it can deffinetly work.

Heimagoblin
06-08-2010, 23:02
Other infantry got buffed, saurus didn't really. You need 3 ranks to have those attacks 24 attacks because you deny one man and it's 1 attack less, when in 7th you didn't need that. Besides other infantry striking back allways isn't nice, deffinetly. Saurus pretty much remained the same. Fighting in I order is the same for us, we never go first. Having +1 CR is nearly the same as striking first for 1 turn. I play against VC a lot, and it's really embarazing to go after... SKELETONS!!!! com'n. 8th is the era of other units. Buffed Saurus however are pure gold.
.

You misunderstand, sarus didn't get buffed compared to other infanrtry but infantry got buffed vs cavalry due to reform, steadfast ect...

Also, about the VC, our sarus get to hit on 3's. Forget about iniative and enjoy that!;)

Kudzu
06-08-2010, 23:31
Only real reason it could be considered a nerf is because of infantry getting support attacks. Spears on Saurus is still quite nasty. If Im taking 24ish + saurus theres not much reason not to take them other than saving points.

You start buffing them with a Slann and they are absolutely brutal.

I'm not saying they are bad by any means (and they're still my favorite line unit in the game), but from 7th to 8th they took a nerf. In 7th a unit of 18 in 6x3 put out 24 attacks and had to lose 7 models before it started losing attacks. In 8th, a unit of 18 in 6x3 puts out 24 attacks but starts losing attacks from the very first casualty.

R-Love
07-08-2010, 03:09
Also, about the VC, our sarus get to hit on 3's. Forget about iniative and enjoy that!;)

That's actually impossible. You cannot forget about initiative when you are moving slower than a skeleton, or the same speed as a freaking zombie. Apparently, the Old Ones perfectly designed ultimate warriors move at the same speed as a rotting corpse. Slaughtering them in return is small compensation. It's not a big deal, but it's incredibly irritating.

Hawkkf
07-08-2010, 03:33
Slann lists are definitely better in 8th. Magic is more deadly, they can use miscasts to their advantage, and generate their own dice. Add in that he is a BSB with LD 9 rerolls on coldblooded making a saurus line a nearly immovable object.

Oldblood lists however have gotten worse. The carnosaur is laughable and doesn'y even give him extended command range. By the time you have a tooled up Oldblood, a ScarVet BSB (always need a bsb), and a Skink Priest for at least some magic support.. well you probably spent more than an average Slann anyway. Without sufficient magic to boost their performance (or protect them) Saurus will suffer from being I1.

Just remember that the most anyone will probably ever effectively field is 2 Slann since the winds of magic don't scale. I know they are rare in some places, but in large 5k+ games we will still have to rely on Oldbloods and unbuffed Saurus to get the job done.

So as long as you are playing a Slann list in around 3k or lower, Lizardmen are one of the strongest armies. But if you don't like a Slann or play large games, Lizardmen took a slight step back as our core got a hair worse.

Embalmed
07-08-2010, 10:57
Saurus were pretty much hitting last in 7th as well but now hitting last isn't as big a deal any more, that should be an advantage for LM, no? It used to be that yes we had many attacks but the enemy would shave away enough of them that it sort of evened out, now we almost always get our full first rank attacking.

Additionally we don't have to worry about auto-breaking from fear, so our almost-ITP got a mite more useful

Reinnon
07-08-2010, 17:59
I never said cupped hands was the number one item, i merely said it got better in 8th ed.

GodlessM
07-08-2010, 18:11
I think people are putting too much stock into Cupped Hands. It is one use only, and half of the miscast results are not much of a big deal in most situations.

Engekomkommer
08-08-2010, 01:09
Saurus + Spears = 3 ranks of serious hurt.



Nope, in theory this is worse....
5 * 3 saurus with spears.

Old rules
First rank = 10 attacks
Second rank = 10 attacks

New rules
First rank = 10 attacks
second rank = 5 attacks
third rank = 5 attacks

Without going into casualties droping the amount of return attacks quicker... I'd rather save the points, get 15 attacks and have the hand weapon + shield.

*edit* really should learn to read the whole thread. Sorry.

Agnar the Howler
08-08-2010, 01:40
I think people are putting too much stock into Cupped Hands. It is one use only, and half of the miscast results are not much of a big deal in most situations.

This is something I don't understand either. It is, as you said, single use; it also relies on the roll of a die to activate (something a lot of people seem to miss out when calling cheese on it), costs just under half of a Slann's magical item allowance and almost all of a Skink's and it's secondary use relies on there being LoS to an enemy wizard.

WoC's Black Tongue forces a miscast from an unsucessful casting roll for near enough the same price as cupped hands, it has no chance to fail and it's single drawback can easily be remedied, yet i've heard nothing about it being one of the items on the Cupped Hands comparison scale...

sulla
08-08-2010, 05:00
This is something I don't understand either. It is, as you said, single use; it also relies on the roll of a die to activate (something a lot of people seem to miss out when calling cheese on it), costs just under half of a Slann's magical item allowance and almost all of a Skink's and it's secondary use relies on there being LoS to an enemy wizard.

WoC's Black Tongue forces a miscast from an unsucessful casting roll for near enough the same price as cupped hands, it has no chance to fail and it's single drawback can easily be remedied, yet i've heard nothing about it being one of the items on the Cupped Hands comparison scale...Black tongue is a fair comparison. The thing about cupped hands is that the slann player has a great deal of control over it's use, while the black tongue player is dependant on the opponent failing to cast. The cupped hands = an irresistably cast uberspell usually (since the slann player will purposely be throwing big handfuls of dice at this spell to cause IF) plus a miscast on the enemy 5 out of 6 times.

Black tongue gives any enemy a miscast regardless of range, but only on a failed cast. It is possible you may go an entire game without an enemy failing to cast, meaning the feedback scroll would have been a better choice. Even if they do miscast, as has been pointed out, the miscast could easily be minor in result. If combined with the puppet, the tongue becomes pretty good (hardly surprising since the puppet was already a nobrainer for your chaos army). The only real problem with the tongue is who can afford to lose a wound in your army? On a hero level mage or fighter it is very dangerous. On a lord they can probably risk it more now that they don't give up vp's so easily.

Personally, I still rate the cupped hands higher for a slann than the tongue for chaos (but lower than the puppet). To me, the cupped hands is as much of a no-brainer for the slann as the power scroll is for purple sun armies.

macdaddy_o
08-08-2010, 22:01
Lizard men definitely got better, at least slann based armies did. Other ones took a hit.

1. Slann gives you the best non special character spell caster in the game. Being able to know all spells in a lore, generate 3 to 4 additional power dice per phase so that even when you roll poorly, you can still have an effective phase, the ability to stop you opponent from getting I irresistible force is all ace. Add to that the fact that he is hard to kill, and can be a leadership 10 general and a bsb, and you have your one stop shopping complete.

2. Saurus warriors overall got better. They had
More attacks, but usually got charged and then always went last, so it evened out. Now they get a large number of S 4 attacks back all the time.

3. Salamanders got way better. March and shoot, no partials, plus the monster and handler rules.

4. Stegadons got a little better. Thunder stomp is great in long combats. Skinks and T6 provide protection against everything except cannons. Lore of life helps keep them alive.

5. Chameleon skinks got really good

6. Common magic items fill many holes from the rather poor item selection in the book.

7. Cupped hand its really the same. Ok, but not great. A must have if he is in TG, but the transfer ability of it is pretty meh.

8th is infantry focused, and lizard men play that game well.

R-Love
09-08-2010, 02:44
1. Slann gives you the best non special character spell caster in the game. Being able to know all spells in a lore, generate 3 to 4 additional power dice per phase so that even when you roll poorly, you can still have an effective phase, the ability to stop you opponent from getting I irresistible force is all ace. Add to that the fact that he is hard to kill, and can be a leadership 10 general and a bsb, and you have your one stop shopping complete.

Leadership 9, not 10

cybercaine
09-08-2010, 07:02
Leadership 9, not 10

Unless you add in the +1 Leadership banner, which the saurus can take and as he's inside that unit you don't have to worry about the drawback.

macdaddy_o
09-08-2010, 14:17
What draw back?

You give the Slann the +1 Leadership banner. He then cannot use the generals "Inspiring Presence" special rule. Since he is in the unit, the unit is using his leadership, not his inspiring presence 12" rule. So you get a LD 10 general with cold blooded for an equivalent 11.5 leadership.

Makes the TG, nearby saurus, and steggies near unbreakable.

cybercaine
09-08-2010, 16:32
What draw back?

You give the Slann the +1 Leadership banner. He then cannot use the generals "Inspiring Presence" special rule. Since he is in the unit, the unit is using his leadership, not his inspiring presence 12" rule. So you get a LD 10 general with cold blooded for an equivalent 11.5 leadership.

Makes the TG, nearby saurus, and steggies near unbreakable.

Well, my point was that you could give it to the unit champion, not the Slann. The drawback wouldn't matter for the TG. That was the drawback I was referring to as it wouldn't matter to the TG. You could give it to the slann as well which would be 6 of 1 half a dozen of the other.

R-Love
09-08-2010, 17:33
Unless you add in the +1 Leadership banner, which the saurus can take and as he's inside that unit you don't have to worry about the drawback.

Sorry, missed that when I read the new magic Items. Just ignore that then :D

R3pr3ssor
11-08-2010, 01:59
Lizards have gotten worse. they were the top army by a significant amount in 6th, second to daemons in 7th, and now at 5-6th atm behind chaos, skaven, high elves, empire, and sometimes dwarves.

their 7th ed codex was the ONLY one which was not more powerful than their 6th ed one, and the new 8th rules hurt lizards alot.

Shiodome
11-08-2010, 02:38
Lizards have gotten worse. they were the top army by a significant amount in 6th, second to daemons in 7th, and now at 5-6th atm behind chaos, skaven, high elves, empire, and sometimes dwarves.

their 7th ed codex was the ONLY one which was not more powerful than their 6th ed one, and the new 8th rules hurt lizards alot.

care to expand on your reasoning for this? i've seen a reasonable number of LM games and they've come across as being pretty dominant, my wood elves and O&G both find them a harder match up than last edition, and have watched LM horribly stomp a vampire player where before the two players were roughly equal in the gaming group.

TheAmazingAntman
11-08-2010, 03:06
Don't forget, before when you lost a saurus you lost 2 attacks, now you only lose one (assuming you only have 3 ranks...if you have more you don't lose any!).

R3pr3ssor
11-08-2010, 04:44
absolutely.

Wood elves took a huge hit this edition, orcs lost out pretty hard, and vampires didnt really improve at all, where lizards did. the difference is that the 5 armies that beat them now got huge boosts.

Saurus got worse, as 2 attack models in general did (for their points, Im not saying an extra rank actually hurts them)

the slann got so much better as common magic got better. at the same time, he is very expensive, and miscasts can screw him over very easily. other wizards get all of the new stuff, and don't cost as much when they explode.

also, purple sun ruined 3 games going decisively my way against HE, Chaos, and skaven, before it was banned in my gaming group.

Rajhald
11-08-2010, 06:33
So I'm still trying to figure out why everyone is saying Saurus fight with 1 attack in the 2nd rank. After reading the rules multiple times it seems to me that spears, as they are written, "spearmen can fight in an extra rank", allows the unit to fight with all attacks in the first 2 ranks and then get the supporting attack from the 3rd.

It may simply be a difference in reading the rules, but is there a FaQ or errata on this yet?

Jetty Smurf
11-08-2010, 06:48
The spear rules just mean you get an extra rank of supporting attacks.

Saurus warriors with HW+S get 2 attacks in the front rank and 1 attack in the second rank for their supporting attacks.

Adding spears just adds another rank to this.

Rajhald
11-08-2010, 07:32
Jetty, is this stated in some errata or FAQ?

As far as I have read (and re-read) the Rule Book isn't crystal clear. I'm great with it being either way.

My gaming group sees it as being full attacks in 2 ranks and then 1 in the 3rd for support if you have spears, and I'm the only Lizard player.

WarmbloodedLizard
11-08-2010, 08:32
Jetty, is this stated in some errata or FAQ?

As far as I have read (and re-read) the Rule Book isn't crystal clear. I'm great with it being either way.

My gaming group sees it as being full attacks in 2 ranks and then 1 in the 3rd for support if you have spears, and I'm the only Lizard player.


read the rules for spears, extra attack and supporting attacks. there's nothing ambiguous about it. sadly, spear saurus have been nerfed again.

Caprosmaster
11-08-2010, 08:35
the slann got so much better as common magic got better. at the same time, he is very expensive, and miscasts can screw him over very easily. other wizards get all of the new stuff, and don't cost as much when they explode.


Nitpicky here, but, your Slann should be in a TG bunker, so thats 800~ points right there in one unit, you'd be crazy not to get CHOO as your arcane item, and if you go Lore of Life, there is always ToV if you have it up.

cybercaine
11-08-2010, 08:51
I read some of the posts in the tread about the army tiers. And some ppl says Lizardmen is in the top. What has improved since they get to be in the top tier?

Let's see. . . Saurus are really great for their points. They were good in 7th. They were probably better in 7th. . . but there was no incentive to play them. 7th edition was an edition where small elite units were king and the top armies didn't fear blocks of Saurus at all (they actually might have been the best unit that had no place because of this) while the bottom tier armies quaked in terror at giant Saurus blocks. In 8th, giant Saurus blocks have a home. And they are scary. I1 isn't so much a problem anymore during extended combats. And because other people are bringing larger units to replace the small elite ones, they have a home and are quite effective at what they do.

As the magic phase is more potent in that the spells cast are more powerful, casters can cause more havoc than every before unless they were a vampire or a Tzeench demon (they cause less now). And Slaan are hyper effective casters. FR on a Slaan effectively adds dice to the pool without exceeding the 12 limit. And With the natural symbiosis that exists with the lore of life and the other units supporting the slaan, this is definitely a powerful thing. TG got slightly worse in that they can't tank as well due to having to use their halberds in h2h. But now the Slaan can potentially bring them back and that's quite scary. Especially considering that they can easily be LD10 coldblooded with the Slaan as a bsb in the center and with stubborn this means that the odds of them fleeing is something approaching 3 in 10000 or so.

Stegadons have been helped in one of the facets where they were weakest. . . winning h2h after the first turn. It only had 3 effective attacks if it was the ancient, and that was usually not enough to win combats one on one. LD 6 coldblooded and stubborn meant that in extended combats where the steg lost, it was at a near coinflip to run. Now, with Thunderstomp, it loses less often. And even if it loses, with the change to Stubborn you can use the general's unmodified LD on that test and I've already stated how hard it is to make LD 10 with a reroll and coldblooded run.

The change to template weapons make Salamanders quite scary. And the fact that it is easy to deny a Regen save with them early in the shooting phase and finish units off with skinks now is quite an interesting tactical option for LM.

On the downside, skinks have gone down in power. 7th edition lessened the skink hord's power by adding march blocking to skirmishers. 8th edition further hampers their ability with the static formations and the change to LoS. I don't think this is bad necessarily. 6th edition, skinks were way over the top with their ability to run 12" around units and constantly pepper them due to the skirmisher rules and thrown weapon rules without ever being in danger of being charged. It's nice to see GW attempt to fix this by making skirmishers a formation themselves. I think this is a good change but it does decrease their potency.

EoG are slightly worse now. Last edition, they brought an extra die to the table and if the priest was a lvl 2, they brought an extra dispel die. Now they no longer do. They do make it so the priest can cast more easily in that he receives a +1 to cast and dispel. But this also means that he will be stealing dice from the Slaan's pool of dice to cast his ridiculous spells.

This marks some of the changes that have the most impact with the transition from 7th to 8th. As to their power level, I am unsure yet whether or not they will be at the top like they used to be. But I think LM lists have gotten a lot more interesting with the choices available and the emphasis on having to take core infantry again. I like them a whole lot more than I have since the 5th edition codex (I've been playing LM since they came in the box set with Brets and I'm excited for LM this edition).