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View Full Version : Is it me or have the orcs and goblins got insanley good?



Oglog
06-08-2010, 20:17
Okay we don't have the best special units, the best leadership, the hardest hitters or even the best armour saves but it seems that we have taken a huge boost in 8th (far more than many armies).

I found the book before to be unreliable, but I played my first game with them today (my second game of 8th) and they were worryingly easy to use. let me explain.

Firstly: Goblins. Enough said.:evilgrin: I just used one unit of them, but night goblins can be taken as a unit of 80 with h/w shield combination, full command and nets for less than 300 points. They were rampaging their way through elves like chaos warriors.

Secondly: Magic. I used 2 level 2s and a level 4 shaman (2 orc, the lord was goblin). They are quite cheap for wizards and their casting sucess rate was phenomenal. MULTIPLE times in the match I was boosting my units 2D6" straight into the enemy, catching them off guard. The Waaagh! spell is amazing and only needing to be cast on a 12+, giving EVERY UNIT an extra 2D6" and EVERY UNIT ASF and hatred. I think it is a bit overkill, especially combinded with the Waaagh special ability once per battle. Magic is just so easy to get off now and miscasting not as bad (IMO)

Thirdly: Shooting. Rock lobbers and spear chukkas can be taken by the bucketload and are so easy to use.

I won quite easily against high elves (okay, not the best army in 8th). I think the way to win is by having a large core of orc boyz and goblins, plent of shooting and lots and lots of magic. Units such as black orcs, boar boyz and trolls don't seem as useful and cost effective when far cheaper war machines can be just as destructive.


Then again, the orc and goblin book was written by Mat Ward (as was the rulebook), and he can be, erm, unpredictable.

This is all my opinion and I am very inexperienced with 8th, so only time will tell.:skull:

Brother Siccarius
06-08-2010, 20:22
Why would you take a unit of 80 NGs instead of two units of 40, I don't understand the logic behind that.

Also you can only take 6 Spear Chukkas and 3 Rock Lobbers in under 3000 points. None of which are very accurate.

Oglog
06-08-2010, 20:25
basically so I can keep steadfast for as long as possible. Units of 40 deployed as horde wont have steadfast for more than one turn against elves (spearmen, swordsmasters, putting out 20 attacks), as I will be down to 2 ranks straight away. A unit of 80 can benefit from loads of horde attacks and well as keeping it's ranks for ages.

Gazak Blacktoof
06-08-2010, 20:29
Units such as black orcs, boar boyz and trolls don't seem as useful and cost effective when far cheaper war machines can be just as destructive.

Well boar boyz are still pretty rubbish, but I see nothing wrong with black orcs, and trolls seem like they're made of awesome in this edition. 240 points for a unit of 6, in a 3 x 2 formation, gives you a great number of attacks and the ability to trash small units using only vomit. Now, that you can use the battle standard to re-roll their stupidity rolls, they're actually more reliable and much more controllable, than units with animosity.

Korraz
06-08-2010, 20:34
>Night Goblins rampaging
Oh you...

OnG made a rocketstart from "Crap" to "Maybe okay-ish middle, let's see." You had a lot of luck. Look around. There are WoC and Elves complaining how weak they are around.

It's just you.

Tarian
06-08-2010, 20:38
Skaven shall show silly green-things what template weapons really are! Yes-yes!

sssk
06-08-2010, 21:02
I think on the whole, orcs and gobbos are nicely balanced now except for the magic phase where they're so OTT it's incredible (and doom divers, which were always extremely good artillery pieces, are now very very good, but I'll let that slip).

The combination of having spells which are now dead easy to cast (WAAAGH in particular is the I win button...which can be pressed turn after turn....), and the miscast table which is fairly tame (fair enough, you might get a double 1 which can hurt you, but mostly the miscasts aren't so bad) means that they can chuck out many spells at relatively low risk.

As I say, when they aren't ASF and hatred, the core are fairly well priced and result in good fun combats which can go either way.

I do have to disagree with you on the topic of trolls (haven't really experienced boar boys, and the one unit of Blorcs I came across got utterly trampled by treekin). Monsterous infantry are horribly good, and with BSBs letting you re-roll the stupidity tests, I can see little reason not to take a unit of 6 (few people are going to argue with 18 strength 5 attacks, 3 stomps, and regeneration to boot). Having said that, I do play pure goblins, so maybe trolls only appeal because I need the high strength attacks.

Oglog
06-08-2010, 21:11
Yeah thanks guys, you have woken me up to how good trolls are :smile:

Ultimate Life Form
07-08-2010, 00:39
I had a few games against them and I must say they got quite a boost for their troops; however the Boar Boys tend to evaporate as soon as they touch something. Yes, 25 measly Clanrats saw 5 Savage Orc Boar Boys with +1 Attack banner off without much hassle. Two games in row.

Toddums
07-08-2010, 00:43
OnG will never be insanely good

Animosity can lose you the game in one turn

ftayl5
07-08-2010, 01:55
OnG will never be insanely good

Animosity can lose you the game in one turn

Exactly.
Orcs and Goblins are a great army, but there's a 1 in 6 chance for each unit that they will do nothing for a turn. With 6+ units on the board, at least 1 of them is bound to squabble.

Felworth
07-08-2010, 02:03
Exactly.
Orcs and Goblins are a great army, but there's a 1 in 6 chance for each unit that they will do nothing for a turn. With 6+ units on the board, at least 1 of them is bound to squabble.

Now now, theres also a 1 in 6 chance said unit will run forward to block charge lanes, charge something it can't possibly beat (and thus stop warmachine shots) or head into the nearest wood after skirmishers.

So yeah, still a 1 in 3 chance of the troops doing something stupid.

Trolls and warmachines are a bit more reliable though, gotta give them that though.

Toddums
07-08-2010, 02:51
trolls with their leadership 3 and stupidity aren't really reliable either

Felworth
07-08-2010, 02:55
trolls with their leadership 3 and stupidity aren't really reliable either

4 thank you muchly! :D

Also, an Orc Warboss and BSB, turns that 4 into a rerollable 9, much better then a 4.

Drongol
07-08-2010, 03:29
There's two things keeping OnG from being "top tier," in my opinion.

There's the problem of Animosity, which is the biggest issue. Having a 1-in-3 chance of your units potentially doing something stupid just doesn't help out much. Also, there's the issue with the Waaagh! spell interacting with war machines, which are one of OnG's biggest strengths in the current edition.

If War Machine crew were immune, or if they could fire after moving, it'd be a huge boost for the army.

I'd also say that it annoys me that I can't take Big Waaagh spells on my wife's Night Goblin army, and that Mork's Spirit Totem is Orcs only. But then again, she chose to only run Night Goblins (and Common Goblin war machines), so that's her fault.

Geep
07-08-2010, 03:58
The Waaagh!! spell is now MUCH kinder on war machines than it used to be. War machines just need TLoS to fire, so placement is easier- even if they move they are likely to be able to shoot from their new position. Also, as the machine and crew now always move together they can't 'abandon' the machine as the spell used to force. When they had to abandon the machine it took two turns of shooting away (one running from the machine, one running back to it). Now it's just one turn's shooting. I'll take that negative if it helps other units enough.

I'm also not so worried by animosity anymore. Few Orc units will care whether they charge or not- certainly charging is far less vital than it was in 7th, and your orcs will be striking last usually anyway. Also random charge moves gives the enemy a small taste of the pain that is animosity- sure, orcs now suffer for that as well, but any experienced orc general is more than a little experienced in dealing with unexpected movement hiccups.

ftayl5
07-08-2010, 06:15
Now now, theres also a 1 in 6 chance said unit will run forward to block charge lanes, charge something it can't possibly beat (and thus stop warmachine shots) or head into the nearest wood after skirmishers.

So yeah, still a 1 in 3 chance of the troops doing something stupid.


That too.

If the BSB worked on animosity, then they'd be amazing.

I thought WAAAAGH!! only effected the crew. I've never used it, little waagh fan here

Geep
07-08-2010, 08:20
Waaagh! does affect the crew, but the crew and machine are now inseperable- effectively, crew are just wound markers for their war machine. This means when one moves both must move, so the machine can't be left in the dust anymore.

ftayl5
07-08-2010, 08:40
ah ok. So that's an improvement.

Lordsaradain
07-08-2010, 08:53
O&G have certainly improved, but they are by no means OTT.

A new book new year will hopefully correctly adjust the point costs for certain units (troll/big 'un upgrades, boar boyz, wolf riders, n.goblins/goblins, black orcs), fix Blorcs quell animosity and make calling the Waaagh! less dangerous to cavalry(prehaps reducing the wounds suffered to D3 when rolling 1).

Nocculum
07-08-2010, 09:09
I had a few games against them and I must say they got quite a boost for their troops; however the Boar Boys tend to evaporate as soon as they touch something. Yes, 25 measly Clanrats saw 5 Savage Orc Boar Boys with +1 Attack banner off without much hassle. Two games in row.

Let me guess, they charged the front of said unit? :eyebrows:

Jingizu
07-08-2010, 09:32
Dont forget to bring some fanatics,3 of them for 75 points is terrifieing. my opponent (son) always seems to get his Fanatics of through my Miners and Warriors making a mess of me :(

And also even if the unit suffer from Anomosity, they still can be "pushed" inte combat by the spell.

Frankly
07-08-2010, 10:52
OnG will never be insanely good

Animosity can lose you the game in one turn

If your list can't cover a bad animosity roll or two in the frst turn; then its more to do with your list than the armybook.

unluckily I've been pulled into playing alot of TK atm and my poor NGs sit on my desks collecting dust, but the few games I've played in 8th have been great! the armybook benefits SO much from the rule changes its amazing. Imho they're the best horde army out there, better than skaven.

Urgat
07-08-2010, 11:08
I played my first game yesterday (1000 points), and, well, I did make mistakes (even in my army list itself, itw as a very rushed game and I forgot half of what I usually take, harg, I even forgot to take a wolf for my lord and trolls lol), and luck did cost me my biggest unit with my BSB and general early in the game (a combination of self-netting, very angry chaos trolls and charriot and failing a rerollable break test on 8...), but yep, I lost. No steamroller army yet. But that was one fun game, at least (it was the watchtower scenario).
I'm going to make a few lists in advance so this embarassment never happens again, though :p


If your list can't cover a bad animosity roll or two in the frst turn; then its more to do with your list than the armybook.
I read that a lot and am insterested in knowing how you manage to always have a spare or two of everything you field and happen to always have them at the right place too. He said "in one turn", not "in the first turn" anyway; animosity will rarely do you anything too bad in the first turn, obviously.

theorox
07-08-2010, 11:09
Animosity must stay! Actually, i want a Craaaaaaaaazier table! 8D

Like this maybe: (Yes yes, a 1/3 chance to behave normally! :D)

Animosity: Test in the "Start of Turn" Sup-phase. Roll a D6.

The following units don't test: Blackorcs, Trolls, Snotlings, Chariots and Warmachines. (And monsters obviously!)

1: Squabble. Can't March (But can move), Charge, Shoot, Cast spells, Or declare a charge reaction this turn. Takes D6 str3 hits.

2: Anger. -1 LD and Devastating Charge for this turn.

3: Energy overflow: The unit gets +2 on their charge distance and Hatred of all enemies this turn.

4: Bloodthirst: The unit gets +2 on their charge distance and Frenzy this turn.

5-6: The unit acts normally.

Or something similar. I want CRAAAZZY Animosity dangit! :D

I do understand most people will forever view me as a lunatic for this, if you were'nt already. I don't mind, i am a lunatic! xD

Theo

Geep
07-08-2010, 11:30
I would actually quite like that table- apart from Squabble and a possible forced charge from Bloodthirst I still get to pick how I move, and even squabble always a regular move. Plus it has benefits beyond just moving.

GodlessM
07-08-2010, 12:13
If War Machine crew were immune, or if they could fire after moving, it'd be a huge boost for the army.

It might come as a shock to you to know War Machine crew are immune to animosity.

Oglog
07-08-2010, 12:20
It might come as a shock to you to know War Machine crew are immune to animosity.


Yeah they are unless you cast the Waaagh! spell. Its the only time they have to leave machine.

Toddums
07-08-2010, 12:21
If your list can't cover a bad animosity roll or two in the frst turn; then its more to do with your list than the armybook.

unluckily I've been pulled into playing alot of TK atm and my poor NGs sit on my desks collecting dust, but the few games I've played in 8th have been great! the armybook benefits SO much from the rule changes its amazing. Imho they're the best horde army out there, better than skaven.

How would I cover it exactly?

also, the animosity rolls that really hurt don't come in the first turn, they come later when you are trying to charge a unit.

Oglog
07-08-2010, 12:26
also, the animosity rolls that really hurt don't come in the first turn, they come later when you are trying to charge a unit.

thats when the waaagh comes in. Either magic or the army special ability.

It would be hard to get it wrong with enough magic support, careful planning, enough units etc. Unless the dice rolls are consistantly hideous, you should be okay when it really matters for those game turning charges mid battle, if you do it right.

Can't garuntee anything with o&G, but you can make your chances much better

Nuada
07-08-2010, 13:16
So, how come you didn't do this in 7th edition?

Orc shamans with power stones. Is it around 17% chance of miscast with 4d6??
Units of 24 savage orcs, ( 6 wide, FC ), and have 19 attacks with rerolls? use fast cav to stop redirecting.
....and instead of lobbers/spear chukkas, take multiple boar chariots and pump wagons.
Black orc leaders stopping animosity.

Urgat
07-08-2010, 14:05
thats when the waaagh comes in. Either magic or the army special ability.

The waaagh spell being magic, it doesn't come into account, and, considering that 1 is always a squabble, I don't see how the army ability will help any.

Fobster
07-08-2010, 14:08
it's nice to see we got a decent boost. Though skaven are a league ahead with their stubborn units of dirt cheap slaves. Orcs also lay down a huge physical presence. purple sun of xerxes will ruin your day.

Frankly
07-08-2010, 15:36
How would I cover it exactly?

also, the animosity rolls that really hurt don't come in the first turn, they come later when you are trying to charge a unit.

Your arguement was that animosity can LOSE you the game in the FIRST turn, not just that it really hurts.

If you roll a couple of 1's in the first turn, that shouldn't spell the end to your game, a unit or two may be out of position and thats about it, using your movement phase and supporting units you should be able to regain your battleline.

I don't mind animosity its there, its not a big issue, if you don't let it become one. It won't stop alot of good generals getting alot out of their greenskins this edition.

Felworth
07-08-2010, 16:21
Ugh, I hate internet white knighting...


Animosity can lose you the game in one turn


Your arguement was that animosity can LOSE you the game in the FIRST turn, not just that it really hurts.

Toddums never said that. Everybody calm down. Were talking about 6 foot green monster people that talk funny. Also 3 foot tall monster people that talk funny and eat mushrooms.:D

Urgat
07-08-2010, 17:35
Your arguement was that animosity can LOSE you the game in the FIRST turn,

No it's not, and I pointed it out already :eyebrows:

Chaos Undecided
07-08-2010, 17:42
Hmm interesting point though if the Waaagh spell forces the crew to abandon their war machine, and now crew are little more than wound counters for the machine does Waaagh! = dead machine?

Tuch
07-08-2010, 18:14
Animosity is manageable with a Black Orc's easily enough though. My son takes a Black Orc lord for his general in a unit of 30 boyz, then 2 heroes in another 2 30 man units one of which has his Shaman Lord. He rarely has issues.

Toddums
07-08-2010, 19:33
Your arguement was that animosity can LOSE you the game in the FIRST turn, not just that it really hurts.

If you roll a couple of 1's in the first turn, that shouldn't spell the end to your game, a unit or two may be out of position and thats about it, using your movement phase and supporting units you should be able to regain your battleline.

I don't mind animosity its there, its not a big issue, if you don't let it become one. It won't stop alot of good generals getting alot out of their greenskins this edition.

Nope, read what I wrote again mr

ONE turn does not equal FIRST turn

Frankly
07-08-2010, 21:18
Oh sorry Toddums your completely right. My english isn't the best and I mis-read it and turn one. Sorry mate.

Urgat
07-08-2010, 22:15
Animosity is manageable with a Black Orc's easily enough though. My son takes a Black Orc lord for his general in a unit of 30 boyz, then 2 heroes in another 2 30 man units one of which has his Shaman Lord. He rarely has issues.

I've always loved that, people who say that animosity is cool and characterful and so on (I know you didn't say that, you just serve as an exemple), and then go on to explain that they deal with it by using black orcs :p

Tuch
08-08-2010, 02:37
Oh I think animosity sucks personally, I haven't played Orcs since 1st edition 40k and honestly I don't even remember how the rules went for them. It's my son who plays them.

I think animosity could easily be made fun and characterful without making it hamper the army. However in its current form it is very debilitating and the easiest way to counter it is with Black Orcs.

Ghazbad_Facestompa
08-08-2010, 03:31
I'm fine with current Animosity. I like most of the army being unpredictable, with a unit forcibly kept in line by the Warboss and BSB (I always have the army led by black orcs, mostly for fluff). The 6 on the table is a boon more often than not, and I rarely Squabble. That said, the table suggested by theorox would be better than the current one.

Keetoowah
08-08-2010, 04:04
Okay we don't have the best special units, the best leadership, the hardest hitters or even the best armour saves but it seems that we have taken a huge boost in 8th (far more than many armies).

I found the book before to be unreliable, but I played my first game with them today (my second game of 8th) and they were worryingly easy to use. let me explain.

Firstly: Goblins. Enough said.:evilgrin: I just used one unit of them, but night goblins can be taken as a unit of 80 with h/w shield combination, full command and nets for less than 300 points. They were rampaging their way through elves like chaos warriors.

Secondly: Magic. I used 2 level 2s and a level 4 shaman (2 orc, the lord was goblin). They are quite cheap for wizards and their casting sucess rate was phenomenal. MULTIPLE times in the match I was boosting my units 2D6" straight into the enemy, catching them off guard. The Waaagh! spell is amazing and only needing to be cast on a 12+, giving EVERY UNIT an extra 2D6" and EVERY UNIT ASF and hatred. I think it is a bit overkill, especially combinded with the Waaagh special ability once per battle. Magic is just so easy to get off now and miscasting not as bad (IMO)

Thirdly: Shooting. Rock lobbers and spear chukkas can be taken by the bucketload and are so easy to use.

I won quite easily against high elves (okay, not the best army in 8th). I think the way to win is by having a large core of orc boyz and goblins, plent of shooting and lots and lots of magic. Units such as black orcs, boar boyz and trolls don't seem as useful and cost effective when far cheaper war machines can be just as destructive.


Then again, the orc and goblin book was written by Mat Ward (as was the rulebook), and he can be, erm, unpredictable.

This is all my opinion and I am very inexperienced with 8th, so only time will tell.:skull:

I don't know where you are getting your information, but High Elves in 8th are the new Daemons.

starlight
08-08-2010, 04:35
...or is it that Greenskins were just so bad that their improvement in 8th Ed makes them seem *insanely good* in comparison... :shifty:

Souppilgrim
08-08-2010, 05:14
I like how there are 3 different ideas about how the waaagh spell works in a basic orc thread. Isn't there another thread on the forums talking about how clear the rules are?

Djekar
08-08-2010, 07:09
Just file it under the "Warseer Greenskins failed their Animosity roll today" and now we have to knock each other around until da boss gets us in line again.

Billy
08-08-2010, 07:17
Trying to find a concensus on the Waaagh spell ruling in the ruling sub-forum. Hopefully the mods don't have to step in and crack some skulls here.

I wouldn't say orcs are top teir this edition, even though i didn't play 7th because of all the cheese... I am seeing rude deamon builds at my LGS still, which is exactly what detered me from 7th.

Souppilgrim
08-08-2010, 08:03
I haven't lost a game to O&G yet in 8th, but it's been close. The thing that strikes me is their magic. With a level 4 they cast powerful spells all the live long day.

Urgat
08-08-2010, 08:33
I like how there are 3 different ideas about how the waaagh spell works in a basic orc thread. Isn't there another thread on the forums talking about how clear the rules are?

The waaagh rules (emphasize on the "s") actually are quite clear (under 7th, now there's the matter of the spell and warmachines) -if you ignore the fact that two rules share the same name, of course-, it's people who seem content with mixing up the two and never check the actual writing.

Oglog
08-08-2010, 09:29
I don't know where you are getting your information, but High Elves in 8th are the new Daemons.


are you sure? maybe more so than me but I thought that high elves took a bit of a knock in 8th due to changes in core restrictions, inability to have/be able to easily break large units (due to steadfast).

I suppose that ASF is better for them and the book of hoeth is now even crazier (irrasistable force on a double 1?)

Panzeesmasha
08-08-2010, 20:32
I'm not convinced that they have suddenly become 'insanely good' but they have certainly improved and could potentially surprise a few at tournaments... that's good enough for me!

It is interesting to read comments regarding Waaagh magic. I too have felt that, despite lacking really powerful spells, the ease of casting our spells seems to almost balance this out. The buff spells (Bash Em Ladz and Waaaagh) are now, IMHO, BETTER since you can fully benefit from all the spell's effects even if the affected unit had already charged that turn (previously, the 'striking first' aspect was not used if cast on a unit that had charged in your movement phase since they would have probably been striking first anyway). This I feel is quite a big change. I think Big Waaagh (not having tried it ingame yet though!) I feel is the way forward. All the spells are worth having whereas this is not so much the case with little waaaagh (again, my opinion). Plus, a lvl 4 orc is T5 with 3 wounds. Give him a 4+ ward and he is pretty resistant to most of the damage taken from the waaagh miscast chart .

I was therefore thinking that lvl 4 Orc shaman with Buzgobs knobbly staff and talisman of preservation seems ok. He is pretty well protected against miscasts plus he gets +5 (!) to cast. Plus, he is not TOO expensive.Thoughts?

BeatTheBeat
08-08-2010, 20:50
Buzgobs knobbly staff? Where do you find that item?

Cheers,
BTB

Panzeesmasha
08-08-2010, 20:59
Buzgobs knobbly staff? Where do you find that item?

Oops, my bad. I meant Staff of Baduum. Buzgob's Knobbly Staff was an item in the previous Orc book. I often get them confused :D

Yes, Staff of Baduum gives +1 to cast which, combined with a lvl4's +4 to cast = +5 to cast. He he :p

Keetoowah
09-08-2010, 04:21
are you sure? maybe more so than me but I thought that high elves took a bit of a knock in 8th due to changes in core restrictions, inability to have/be able to easily break large units (due to steadfast).

I suppose that ASF is better for them and the book of hoeth is now even crazier (irrasistable force on a double 1?)

Here are some reasons:

-They fight in 5 ranks with spears. This coupled with the volley fire rule made sea guard awesome.

-They always strike first, even with great weapons. Plus, because they're elves and therefore have a high initiative, they will be re-rolling to wound in most cases.

-They have access to good multi-purpose infantry that are fairly cheap, so they horde up well. This also helps with steadfast ranks.

-They have access to some of the most potent magic users (Teclis) and magic in the game, as high magic is nothing to sneer at.

These are only some of the reasons just off of the top of my head.

UberBeast
09-08-2010, 05:14
It's kind of lame that all of the other armies that used to suffer animosity have had it removed except orcs. Deamons and Beastmen both used to have it, and yet greenskins are the only army still laboring under this frequently debilitating rule.

Tarian
10-08-2010, 19:37
Here are some reasons:

-They fight in 5 ranks with spears. This coupled with the volley fire rule made sea guard awesome.

-They always strike first, even with great weapons. Plus, because they're elves and therefore have a high initiative, they will be re-rolling to wound in most cases.

-They have access to good multi-purpose infantry that are fairly cheap, so they horde up well. This also helps with steadfast ranks.

-They have access to some of the most potent magic users (Teclis) and magic in the game, as high magic is nothing to sneer at.

These are only some of the reasons just off of the top of my head.

They also die like a Night Gobbo to return attacks now though... and since when was HE infantry cheap? Our elites are almost Chaos Warrior expensive, and our cheapest troop costs more than twice that of a clan rat.

Malorian
10-08-2010, 20:09
It's kind of lame that all of the other armies that used to suffer animosity have had it removed except orcs. Deamons and Beastmen both used to have it, and yet greenskins are the only army still laboring under this frequently debilitating rule.

If orcs lost animosity I wouldn't like them as much.

It's something that makes them unique to me.

macdaddy_o
11-08-2010, 01:10
I have used my lizard men against O & G twice in 8th against different players. Both games were over by the top of turn 3, and I went second both times. Both were massacres in my favor where my opponent had almost nothing left and barely killed anything from my army, and magic did not play a roll st all I'm one of those. And animosity played no roll at all.

So I am not ready to crown them with a top tier label just yet.

kramplarv
11-08-2010, 02:57
>Night Goblins rampaging
Oh you...

OnG made a rocketstart from "Crap" to "Maybe okay-ish middle, let's see." You had a lot of luck. Look around. There are WoC and Elves complaining how weak they are around.

It's just you.

nah, I would say Orcs are better than both WoC and HE. Cheap troops with t4 and S4 in combat, access to lots and lots of shooting, a good amount of magic, fighty characters in one. (goblin boss with gw FTW!!!!). And the "ere we go" which let's you strike first and re-roll misses. that one is a killer because a mob of 30 orcs with an angry warbozz or jsut big bozz are quite nasty. :)

UberBeast
11-08-2010, 03:12
If orcs lost animosity I wouldn't like them as much.

It's something that makes them unique to me.

I agree, but I would have thought the same of beasts and deamons and they managed to survive and thrive.

itcamefromthedeep
11-08-2010, 03:28
A lack of animosity works just fine for 40k Orks.

---

I've taken to spamming Black Orc Big Bosses to get my units where they need to go. I like being able to play my army.

---

Greenskins are not the best army around. Animosity practically guarantees that.

Dag
11-08-2010, 07:59
3 things about orcs that changed in the new addition with animosity.

1. charge ranges are bigger, units move faster, one turn of no action means a unit can be outmaneuvered and crushed with relative ease. If your horde is squabbling it can hold up not 1 but 3-4 units.

2. initiative order for combat. With how orcs work and the choppa rule, you WANT them to charge you now. you get 1+str anyways, and orcs play the war of attrition like nobody else. This nerfed the WAAAGH charge that saw so many gunlines broken.

3. lack of punch. Nothing, i repeat, NOTHING in the OnG armybook has punch when compared to other armies, going last vs ANYTHING that isnt dead already makes your units rather bleh... and w/o the armour to keep you alive, your elites die even faster now that you cant move away from LoS of shooters and boltthrowers.

I love OnG, but what if its turn 6 and your unit of boys waaagh out of a building?... the watchtower? and you lose because of rolling a 6, or your going in but squabble right then, and you lose? Animosity needs to either be taken right out, or to be less crippling when somehting negative happens. EI a black orc not being able to kill more boyz than anything else he can possibly swing at. (having one kill 4-5 is rediculous and its very easily done.

Embalmed
11-08-2010, 09:36
I have used my lizard men against O & G twice in 8th against different players. Both games were over by the top of turn 3, and I went second both times. Both were massacres in my favor where my opponent had almost nothing left and barely killed anything from my army, and magic did not play a roll st all I'm one of those. And animosity played no roll at all.

So I am not ready to crown them with a top tier label just yet.

Mmmm, that's a bit anecdotal, how did it happen? I mean LM Saurus are a lot more expensive than orcs and don't fight that much better, if it wasn't the magic or the animosity, what was it?

Gazak Blacktoof
11-08-2010, 09:45
I played a game at the weekend and the boyz didn't do that well. SImply put, regular orcs with their large bases don't pack that much of a punch. Cheap as chips night goblins, black orcs, trolls and giants all worked wonders for me. The boyz might have done better if they didn't keep stalling infront of a line of shooty units, but animosity is part of the package and they'll almost certainly do it again and again.

I think that some of the magic item combos with the new BRB items are pretty good, there's also some armour worth taking now.

LordBadgash
11-08-2010, 16:19
I was pretty pleased with my army last night in my first game of 8th.

It was a 2250 game vs Warriors of chaos, scenario #3.

My lobba blew up on the first turn and my 2 chukkas didn't hit anything all game.

My magic phase struggled to cast even with a level 4 and 2.

I didn't have enough magic defense to stop spells like infernal gateway. His Hellcannon hit home twice on my generals unit of 36 orcs, killing almost 20 orcs.

That said, I only completely lost the lobba and Giant. I would have lost 1/2 points for my unit of 36 orcs and my 20 black orcs, which was reduced to 1 black orc, but in this edition my opponent didn't score anything.

I managed to kill a unit of 50 (10x5) Marauders by charging a unit of 30 orcs, a boar chariot, and a wolf chariot. The orcs hit hard with strength 4 choppas and were quite resilient with Toughness 4, light armour and shield, and the parry ward save.

My 40 night goblins (5x8) with BSB managed to hold off the horde of 30 Khorne Warriors (10x3) for a turn, long enough for my to use the Hand of Gork spell to send my Warboss' orc unit, with only 8 models left after being abused by the Hellcannon, into the Warriors' flank. With the wounds from my general, the flank point, and he charge point, I was able to break and run down the horde in he final turn.

Finally, my unit of 20 Black Orcs, which was reduced to 7 was charged by 9 Chaos Ogres (3X3) suffered 3 wounds, but managed to inflict 6 wounds on the Ogres and send them fleeing and then ran them down!!!! Badass!!!

Here is my list for those who are curious....


Orc Warboss = 218
-Akkrit Axe, Kicken’ Boots, Armour of Fortune, Potion of Foolhardiness
-Shield

Orc Great Shaman (lvl 4) = 250
-Dispell Scroll

Night Goblin Shaman (1v1 2) = 100
-Scroll of Shielding

Night Goblin Battle Standard = 105
-Silver Steel Armour, Luckstone

Core

35 Orc Boys = 240 (Led by Warboss Badgash)
-full command, shields

29 Orc Boys = 204 (Led by Orc Great Shaman)
-full command, shields

38 Night Goblins = 219 (led by BSB and NG Shaman)
-full command, 2 Fanatics, nets, hw & shields

2 x Snotling Bases = 40

Special

20 Black Orcs = 343
-full command, shields
-Waaagh! Banner

Orc Boar Chariot = 80

Goblin Wolf Chariot = 60

Rock Lobba = 75
-Bully

2 x Spear Chukkas = 70

Rare

Giant = 205

Snotling Pump Wagon = 40

= 2,249

itcamefromthedeep
11-08-2010, 23:20
1. charge ranges are bigger, units move faster, one turn of no action means a unit can be outmaneuvered and crushed with relative ease. If your horde is squabbling it can hold up not 1 but 3-4 units.
I don't really see what has changed here. Squabbling has always been crippling.


2. initiative order for combat.
Orcs have relatively low Initiative, that's true. In an army with a lot of horde troops, though, "stepping up" means that Orc infantry have rolled far more Attacks in my experience.


3. lack of punch. Nothing, i repeat, NOTHING in the OnG armybook has punch when compared to other armies,
Black Orcs hit plenty hard. Trolls are hitty for their price. Fighty lords with S5 T5 can't be all *that* wimpy. Orc Boys have punch for their price. Big 'Uns bring WS4 S4(5) and that ain't nuthin' to sneeze at. Giants aren't bad for hittiness. Chariots hurt. So do Fanatics. If Squig Herds don't have punch, I don't know what would (Squigs are nothing *but* punch). I see punch in this army.

Perhaps you could rephrase these?

Peril
12-08-2010, 00:07
I don't really see what has changed here. Squabbling has always been crippling.


Agreed



Orcs have relatively low Initiative, that's true. In an army with a lot of horde troops, though, "stepping up" means that Orc infantry have rolled far more Attacks in my experience.


Low I stinks, but alot of armies have this problem.



Black Orcs hit plenty hard. Trolls are hitty for their price. Fighty lords with S5 T5 can't be all *that* wimpy.


BO's are ok. Trolls got a heck of a boost in this edition, which is nice. Rare slot isnt a huge deal, for lack of competition.



Orc Boys have punch for their price. Big 'Uns bring WS4 S4(5) and that ain't nuthin' to sneeze at.


No. Boyz do not have punch. Big'Uns are terribly TERRIBLY overpriced.



Giants aren't bad for hittiness. Chariots hurt. So do Fanatics. If Squig Herds don't have punch, I don't know what would (Squigs are nothing *but* punch). I see punch in this army.


Giants got somewhat better with Thunderstomp, although low I + Yell and Brawl is ridiculous and deprives you of T-Stomp.

Chariots - here is where O+G got a nice boost. With no slots to have to sacrifice a huge element of your army, you can finally take BO's Chariots AND War Machines. A Chariot + ranked Orc unit will hit hard AND deny steadfast.

Squig Herds have some punch, but it will be breif as the unit will lose models very quickly. Luckily they aren't too expensive.

So there is a little bit of punch, just not a ton. I kinda see them like Empire in the combined-arms sort of way. Use War Machines, Magic, and combined charges and you can roll em up. Too bad Animosity makes a coherent battle plan impossible.

O+G got better, but it will never be "insanely good" while the current version of animosity exists.

Tymell
12-08-2010, 00:19
Maybe Orcs & Goblins have gotten better, but must we continue with all these hastily-drawn conclusion threads? Every day there seems to be another "I just played my first game with/against this army and they won/lost/I got massacred, I think they're now the best/worst/cheesiest army in 8th edition!" thread popping up.

Let's give it some time before making statements of the best/worst armies around.

itcamefromthedeep
12-08-2010, 00:37
Big'Uns are terribly TERRIBLY overpriced.
Overpriced as they may be, they aren't bad at hitting things.

Those models aren't as bad as they look at first glance. They could stand to sit at 8 points or so, but it's not nearly as bad as, say, Skeleton Heavy Cavalry or Griffons.


Let's give it some time before making statements of the best/worst armies around.
Yes, I concur totally, and by doing so bump the thread once more!

Maoriboy007
12-08-2010, 04:27
No. Boyz do not have punch. Big'Uns are terribly TERRIBLY overpriced.

Actually 9 points for WS Tough and Str 4 (5 on the first turn) sounds about right for that statline.

Dag
12-08-2010, 04:40
I don't really see what has changed here. Squabbling has always been crippling.


Orcs have relatively low Initiative, that's true. In an army with a lot of horde troops, though, "stepping up" means that Orc infantry have rolled far more Attacks in my experience.


Black Orcs hit plenty hard. Trolls are hitty for their price. Fighty lords with S5 T5 can't be all *that* wimpy. Orc Boys have punch for their price. Big 'Uns bring WS4 S4(5) and that ain't nuthin' to sneeze at. Giants aren't bad for hittiness. Chariots hurt. So do Fanatics. If Squig Herds don't have punch, I don't know what would (Squigs are nothing *but* punch). I see punch in this army.

Perhaps you could rephrase these?

because now people move faster, giving 1 turn of uselessness more weight..? Dont understand how that could be misunderstood. It was crippling in 7th but now its more-so as units move faster...

agree, orc infantry are better with the step up rule... that doesnt mean their "good". They win by the way they always have, war of attrition, and it works. This still only effects low grade footsloggers as any elites, or some core (saurus / cw) will still wipe them away.

striking in I suck now because orcs used to be the ones charging most of the time in my experience. Declaring the WAAAGH with strategicly placed heroes makes getting the 1st charge hard to miss without a botched battle plan. Now you charge and die first, not bad for boys but for boar boyz its brutal, as is it for squig hoppers who were a must take turned into a meh unit.

Correction for black orcs, they hit hard with great weapons, w/o them their punch is greatly slacking, and their not hard to kill, if you can kill an orc boy a blackorc is only ws4 difference and ASL. If you take choppa/s or double chop your not going to have a nasty dmg output and people wont fear them. Trolls are true though, good hitty unit for them but its stupid... Giants are fun>effectiveness, this is well known, and biguns are expensive in a horde army. Fanatics are good but i dislike them so i rarely use them.

Draconian77
12-08-2010, 05:35
because now people move faster, giving 1 turn of uselessness more weight..? Dont understand how that could be misunderstood. It was crippling in 7th but now its more-so as units move faster...


Em, doesn't that swing both ways? Yes, the enemy move faster but so do your Orcs meaning that a turn of squabbling hurts you comparatively (compared to "march block'o'7th edition) less overall.

Besides, with big hordes of cheap troops (such as Orcs!) being popular even a Flank or Rear charge from most enemy units won't negate your Steadfast and hence can reform during your next turn.

decker_cky
12-08-2010, 08:31
3 things about orcs that changed in the new addition with animosity.

1. charge ranges are bigger, units move faster, one turn of no action means a unit can be outmaneuvered and crushed with relative ease. If your horde is squabbling it can hold up not 1 but 3-4 units.

2. initiative order for combat. With how orcs work and the choppa rule, you WANT them to charge you now. you get 1+str anyways, and orcs play the war of attrition like nobody else. This nerfed the WAAAGH charge that saw so many gunlines broken.

3. lack of punch. Nothing, i repeat, NOTHING in the OnG armybook has punch when compared to other armies, going last vs ANYTHING that isnt dead already makes your units rather bleh... and w/o the armour to keep you alive, your elites die even faster now that you cant move away from LoS of shooters and boltthrowers.

I love OnG, but what if its turn 6 and your unit of boys waaagh out of a building?... the watchtower? and you lose because of rolling a 6, or your going in but squabble right then, and you lose? Animosity needs to either be taken right out, or to be less crippling when somehting negative happens. EI a black orc not being able to kill more boyz than anything else he can possibly swing at. (having one kill 4-5 is rediculous and its very easily done.

Killing 4-5 is very rare. Over a game, you should on average kill 2-3.

And if you take a horde, you should take a black orc for it. Honestly....it's a tool in the army for your bigger blocks.

Quick reforms allow you to compensate for badly timed animosity rolls better than before too, which functions as a boost for orcs relative to other armies (since orcs will have units out of position regardless of player error).

Djekar
12-08-2010, 11:29
However, if you factor in the cost of the Black Orc Character to the unit our troops aren't looking so cheap anymore.

That being said, at least with fewer large units being the norm coupled with no more slots it is far more feasible to have an army relatively unhampered by animosity than before. I'm just not sold that it's the "best" option.

Rake
12-08-2010, 13:10
Orcs and Goblins improved as ALL armies improved. None of our units got something more than anybody else's units. So it looks like a net gain. Until you factor in our low initiative. And then the rosy picture gets worse. Initiative, which used to be amongst the cheapest and most unimportant stats in the book now has become one of the most important, and although the effects differ in horde vs quality units they still have a severe impact. Our small elite units get hammered by attacks before they go and our hordes start hurting when you are talking about going second the 2nd round when casualties pile up and the choppa stopped working.

Troop prices were worked out when Initiative had little value, this has changed in the new edition but it is clear GW has not payed correct attention to this (newer army books still price initiative according to the old model)
Add to this the fact that when you compared equal units Orcs were paying 0.5 points MORE for the PRIVILIGE (note: sarcasm) of Animosity, even your basic orc is overcosted (not by much and not a real problem to be honest). The problem comes when this basic (slightly high) cost is used as a base for the multiplied value of the higher tier units (Big'uns, Savage Orcs and above all Black Orcs) and cavalry (everything mentioned here goes DOUBLE for Boar Boys and is then compounded by the new rules). End result is a 14 point model (compareable to a chaos warrior or high elf elite unit) that lacks the oomph. And then you add the 25mm base. Another small detail that makes a BIG difference as it has real and direct game effect in close combat and manouvers.

This isnt a comprehensive post as to the state of orcdom in 8th ed. but i think it is a very relevant one that hasnt been addressed.

Sandals
12-08-2010, 15:52
i have to agree with Rake about one thing - base size. this apparently arbitrary point of how big a gap between a model's feet they have posed it as determines a huge amount about how effective a unit is.

my favourite comparison is empire swordsmen vs marauders. exactly the same stats, the same points cost when equipped the same, but swordsmen are better cos they're on smaller bases.

i wonder why they have to have two different base sizes for normal infantry? why can't everything be on 20mm? or everything on 25mm? i don't mind which, as long as there is consistancy

Tarian
12-08-2010, 21:05
Because Chaos Warriors are a lot bigger than a weedy Goblin. Or they're more anti-social, and thus don't rank up as tightly. Or a combination of the two.

Maoriboy007
12-08-2010, 21:26
However, if you factor in the cost of the Black Orc Character to the unit our troops aren't looking so cheap anymore.

Look on the bright side, at least he doesn't cost a lord slot anymore.

Urgat
12-08-2010, 23:38
my favourite comparison is empire swordsmen vs marauders. exactly the same stats, the same points cost when equipped the same, but swordsmen are better cos they're on smaller bases.


Marauders reroll panic tests, that's not too bad. If you combine that to those large bases of theirs, they're way more resilient to shooting and template weapons.